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Lip Man 1
06-07-2004, 12:26 AM
Snippets from the A.P.

Tigers Manager Suggests Twins Tampering
By Associated Press

June 6, 2004, 7:35 PM CDT


MINNEAPOLIS -- Alan Trammell thinks the Minnesota Twins might be getting a little help -- from some timely air conditioning.

The Detroit manager questioned whether the Twins tampered with the Metrodome's ventilation system in the ninth inning of a 6-5 victory over the Tigers on Sunday.

Minnesota took a 6-3 lead in the bottom of the eighth on rookie Joe Mauer's three-run homer. In the ninth, the Tigers rallied for two runs and had the tying run on first with one out when Rondell White hit a deep drive to left.

But Lew Ford made the catch on the warning track for the second out, and Joe Nathan struck out Bobby Higginson to end it.

After the game, Trammell went public with what other teams have grumbled about in the past, saying the Metrodome's ventilation system was blowing air through its outfield vents in the ninth inning to help prevent Detroit home runs.

Detroit also lost a potential go-ahead homer in the ninth inning Friday when Ford caught Omar Infante's fly ball on the warning track in left.

The Tigers said a flag in the left-field upper deck was flapping as though it were windy Sunday, and they saw a piece of tape stuck to a vent behind home plate that was fluttering while the Twins were hitting, implying that the Twins -- who scored all their runs on three homers -- were being aided on offense and defense.

"It borders on the ridiculous and the absurd," Twins vice president of operations Matt Hoy said. "It's a romantic concept that we can materially affect the flight of the ball, but it's just not possible."

Hoy said the vents behind home plate don't blow out -- they take cold air off the field and circulate it through a series of smaller vents located around the upper and lower decks, serving as a type of air conditioning system.

The Tigers are not the first team to express their suspicions about the Metrodome's air currents. Former managers Whitey Herzog of St. Louis and Bobby Valentine of the Rangers also suggested the Twins manipulated the atmosphere to their advantage.

According to Hoy, the commissioner's office and a team of physicists from the University of Minnesota have studied the Metrodome's air distribution system and found its impact on the game negligible. "

Lip

1951Campbell
06-07-2004, 12:30 AM
Frankly...if I managed a team that lost 119 games last year, I wouldn't think that the AC at one park would be the major problem...but if Trammell wants to be a whiny bitch, so be it.

batmanZoSo
06-07-2004, 12:35 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Snippets from the A.P.

Tigers Manager Suggests Twins Tampering

According to Hoy, the commissioner's office and a team of physicists from the University of Minnesota have studied the Metrodome's air distribution system and found its impact on the game negligible. "

Lip


Wow, the University of Minnesota found that the impact on the game is negligible. Let's have Kent State run some tests, see what they come up with. :o:

Fact is, many people in baseball said they do it and a former stadium employee said they do it. I wouldn't put it past them. The place is a joke in the first place. If you can't give your team a real baseball stadium, don't have a team.

By the way Mr. Hoy, "negligible" doesn't mean "not at all." Corked bats can have a negligible effect on the flight of a ball, too...

MRKARNO
06-07-2004, 12:38 AM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo
Wow, the University of Minnesota found that the impact on the game is negligible. Let's have Kent State run some tests, see what they come up with. :o:

Fact is, many people in baseball said they do it and a former stadium employee said they do it. I wouldn't put it past them. The place is a joke in the first place. If you can't give your team a real baseball stadium, don't have a team.

By the way Mr. Hoy, "negligible" doesn't mean "not at all." Corked bats can have a negligible effect on the flight of a ball, too...

Well Negligible might really mean 10 feet which would mean a huge difference in a game.

Whitesox029
06-07-2004, 12:40 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
"It borders on the ridiculous and the absurd," Twins vice president of operations Matt Hoy said. "It's a romantic concept that we can materially affect the flight of the ball, but it's just not possible."

No, Matt, you're right. Wind has never been known to knock down or help a fly ball.

batmanZoSo
06-07-2004, 12:41 AM
Originally posted by MRKARNO
Well Negligible might really mean 10 feet which would mean a huge difference in a game.

:hawk
'ts a game of inches...

Whitesox029
06-07-2004, 12:42 AM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo
Wow, the University of Minnesota found that the impact on the game is negligible. Let's have Kent State run some tests, see what they come up with. :o:

Yeah, let's let University of Michigan and U. of I. run some "tests" on their system too if you know what I mean.....

SOXintheBURGH
06-07-2004, 04:25 AM
Originally posted by Whitesox029

Yeah, let's let University of Michigan and U. of I. run some "tests" on their system too if you know what I mean.....


Yeah seriously..

How many Torii Hunter high light reels would go to the gutter over night if U of I ran a test?

It is ridiculous to think that air conditioning can actually effect a balls flight.. but I am starting to think that there is truth to this, and as Batman said, many people in the game admit to it. I have no respect for a baseball team that plays indoors. Especially if they use the same building for football. Maybe thats just the Bears fan in me being an elitist.

SSN721
06-07-2004, 05:56 AM
I just wonder if they can really get the system to push the ball another 10-15 feet. If they can and reverse the system to take away 10-15 feet when the other team is batting then it is a huge deal. Obviously out and out cheating I just dont know if it can really have that much of an effect on the ball.

voodoochile
06-07-2004, 06:25 AM
Don't forget the other aspect of this. Cold air is denser than warm air. If the AC is going full blast in LF you might have localized denser air there.

I am sure that effect is even more "negligible" but every little bit helps/hurts, right twinkies?

SEALgep
06-07-2004, 07:46 AM
This is starting to piss me off, why can't ESPN or someone cover this to make it more known? If they did, I bet you baseball would have a much harder time sweeping it under the rug. :angry:

Hangar18
06-07-2004, 10:33 AM
Well, I certainly Remember a game-altering BLAST by Carlos Lee
to Dead Center.......the ball was CRUSHED, Lee even watched it
in a HomeRun-Pose kind of way. Only to see it coming down
into Torii Hunters glove. The look on CLees face was Priceless.
Of course, commercials made it look like CLee was Astounded that Hunter caught the ball, when it was really CLee Astounded
that the AIRVents prevented his homerun

ma-gaga
06-07-2004, 11:02 AM
Originally posted by MRKARNO
Well Negligible might really mean 10 feet which would mean a huge difference in a game.

IIRC, "negligible" meant 3 feet in their study. Rondell White's shot was a bomb, but he got under it too much. It was 5 feet too short.

I loved that smash by Carlos Lee. He hit it dead center and about 200 feet high. It should have gone out, but it just died up there. Besides, Hunter made a spectacular catch. Wind aided or not, that catch was unreal.

I'd love to see anyone do a definitive research project on the air currents in the dome and how it affects fly balls. And what they would do if a knuckleballer was the pitcher. If nothing else, just to shut up the whiny bitching that bad managers do.

pearso66
06-07-2004, 03:02 PM
Ok MaGaga, Sure Torii's catch on Carlos Lee was an amazing catch, but if that A/C took even 3 feet off the ball, the ball was ogne otherwise. And if that's the case, it's cheating. I don't even care if it doesnt help, the fact is if they do it, it's still cheating.

illiniwhitesox
06-07-2004, 03:31 PM
I have played the outfield and have seen the wind, even a modest wind, eat up a hard hit ball. You have to account for it when playing the outfield. You have to account for it when you play golf. Wind is a factor. To say that ventilation would not impact the flight of the ball in an indoor stadium is ridiculous. I lived in Minneapolis and went to the Rollerdome on many an occasion. When you open the door to walk in, you feel you are walking into a wind-dunnel as air comes rushing out.

AIR-PRESSURE KEEPS THE ROOF ALOFT!

So who is to say that there could not be any truth to this. If I were the Twins, I would manipulate the elements.

Gee, I guess a groundscrew sloping the infield foul-lines to make it easier or more difficult to bunt never has happened. I imagine that a groundscrew watering down the infield dirt to reduce the chances of a team running really does not impact team speed. I heard that teams that either keep there infield grass short or high on the basis of their team's speed also is a non-factor.

On another note, it is far and away one of two worst baseball stadiums in the league (Devil Rays).

samram
06-07-2004, 03:58 PM
Originally posted by illiniwhitesox
I have played the outfield and have seen the wind, even a modest wind, eat up a hard hit ball. You have to account for it when playing the outfield. You have to account for it when you play golf. Wind is a factor. To say that ventilation would not impact the flight of the ball in an indoor stadium is ridiculous. I lived in Minneapolis and went to the Rollerdome on many an occasion. When you open the door to walk in, you feel you are walking into a wind-dunnel as air comes rushing out.

AIR-PRESSURE KEEPS THE ROOF ALOFT!

So who is to say that there could not be any truth to this. If I were the Twins, I would manipulate the elements.

Gee, I guess a groundscrew sloping the infield foul-lines to make it easier or more difficult to bunt never has happened. I imagine that a groundscrew watering down the infield dirt to reduce the chances of a team running really does not impact team speed. I heard that teams that either keep there infield grass short or high on the basis of their team's speed also is a non-factor.

On another note, it is far and away one of two worst baseball stadiums in the league (Devil Rays).

The difference is the field is the same for both teams, whereas if this were true, they are basically changing the dimensions of the park for one team. The skewed foul lines can help a bunter on either team.

SEALgep
06-07-2004, 04:03 PM
Originally posted by illiniwhitesox

Gee, I guess a groundscrew sloping the infield foul-lines to make it easier or more difficult to bunt never has happened. I imagine that a groundscrew watering down the infield dirt to reduce the chances of a team running really does not impact team speed. I heard that teams that either keep there infield grass short or high on the basis of their team's speed also is a non-factor.
The difference with that is how it affects both teams. You can move the fences in or back like KC did this year, but it's the same for both teams. But they have advantage from both their offense and defense by reversing the air flow.

Foulke You
06-07-2004, 04:19 PM
Having experienced the Metrodome for the first time this year and sitting in LF facing home plate, I can definitely say without a doubt, the airflow does change at each half inning. The "wind" blows out when the Twins are up, and it either blows in or not at all when the Sox are up. This pattern stayed true all the way up to the 7th inning when Valentin put the game out of reach with his 2 run bomb. After that homer, the fans remained off. Whether it has an effect on the ball or not, I can't prove. The fact remains that the airflow changes from half inning to half inning at that park.

Mohoney
06-07-2004, 06:49 PM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo
The place is a joke in the first place. If you can't give your team a real baseball stadium, don't have a team.

I'll drink to that. :gulp:

Tear this dump down already!

PaleHoseGeorge
06-07-2004, 07:25 PM
Originally posted by ma-gaga
...I'd love to see anyone do a definitive research project on the air currents in the dome and how it affects fly balls. And what they would do if a knuckleballer was the pitcher. If nothing else, just to shut up the whiny bitching that bad managers do.

Anyone who roots for a team managed by a guy like Ron Gardenhire and led by Doug Mientkiewicz ought to know all about whiny bitches.

Philo-Sox-er
06-07-2004, 08:59 PM
I can't recall where I saw/read it, but somewhere it is documented that in fact, during one of the Twins' playoff games, the grounds crew in fact did turn on the air vents when the Twinkies were batting and turned them off when the opposing team was at the plate. If I can recall where I saw that I'll post it.

Philo-Sox-er
06-07-2004, 09:09 PM
Here's a link to a fact sheet about the Twinkie Dome. Note that is states the air conditioning effect the ratio of home runs hit:

http://www.ballparks.com/baseball/american/metrod.htm

Philo-Sox-er
06-07-2004, 09:13 PM
Here's the story I originally read, July 2003, in which a former crew member admitted to adjusting the air conditioning at the Twinkie Dome to help the home team!

Trammell could cite this as evidence of an existing practice.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/story?id=1585964

I hope this is informational to everyone in their inevitable debates on the subject...

Baby Fisk
06-08-2004, 08:29 AM
I don't see what the big deal is. Every home team has the opportunity to engage in chicanery and shenanigans to claim the edge over visiting teams. Whatever you can get away with is fair game in my opinion.

Here's an example of some murky goings on at pure, unblemished Comiskey Park, from "Baseball, Chicago Style" by Jerome Holtzman & George Vass:

[Former Comiskey Park groundskeeper Gene] Bossard also created what was known as "Bossard's Swamp". After the lights were turned off, Bossard had his helpers dig into the dirt about four or five inches in front of the plate, and soaked it. The next day the top soil appeared to be dry. Down below it was a marsh.

It was another clever deception that helped the White Sox pitchers. Joel Horlen, Tommy John and John Buzhardt, particularly, were sinker-ballers. Sixty-five percent of the balls hit off them were grounders. It was a double-whammy. The batters were not only hitting a dead ball, but pounding it into the mud. [another bit of clubhouse connivery by the Sox involved sweating baseballs in an enclosed room with a humidifier to deaden them].

SEALgep
06-08-2004, 08:32 AM
Originally posted by Baby Fisk
I don't see what the big deal is. Every home team has the opportunity to engage in chicanery and shenanigans to claim the edge over visiting teams. Whatever you can get away with is fair game in my opinion.

Here's an example of some murky goings on at pure, unblemished Comiskey Park, from "Baseball, Chicago Style" by Jerome Holtzman & George Vass: But what you're arguing affects both teams. KC moved the fences back 10 feet, which is fine because it's 10 feet back when they bat as well. The difference here is that the Twins have the AC knock down balls for the opposing batters, and carry the ball when they bat. That's not right.

Philo-Sox-er
06-08-2004, 08:35 AM
Indeed. Though the key phrase in your reply is "get away with" and what we have here is an instance in which Trammell is saying, "Hey, we aren't going to let you get away with that!"

But, yes, everyone knows grounds crews let the infield grass grow long or short depending on the home team's defensive capabilities, etc.

But you have to be smart about it; don't get caught so to speak. The Twins are being so obvious about it, they are drawing attention and that means, they did not "get away with it"--well they did unless something is done to change it from happening again and effecting the outcome of games.

Palehose13
06-08-2004, 08:38 AM
Originally posted by SEALgep
But what you're arguing affects both teams. KC moved the fences back 10 feet, which is fine because it's 10 feet back when they bat as well. The difference here is that the Twins have the AC knock down balls for the opposing batters, and carry the ball when they bat. That's not right.

Yepperz. I understand "home field advantage", but only if it effects both teams the same way. That is why no one complains about Minny building their team on speed and defense which definitely helps when you play 81 games in that dome.

Isn't there a rule for teams with retractable roofs that once an inning is started with the roof open(or closed) it has to stay that way until the completion of the inning so that the conditions are the same for both teams.

PaleHoseGeorge
06-08-2004, 08:45 AM
Originally posted by Palehose13
....Isn't there a rule for teams with retractable roofs that once an inning is started with the roof open(or closed) it has to stay that way until the completion of the inning so that the conditions are the same for both teams.

I believe you're right, and this is a much better analogy to illustrate what makes turning on and off the ventilation fans in the HumpDome against the rules. If the Blue Jays aren't allowed to open and close their dome every half-inning, the Twins ought not be allowed to turn their ballpark into a wind tunnel every half-inning either.

Long grass and tilted foul lines are the same for both teams. Big difference... something even the numbskulls at the University of Minnesota I bet would admit to.

Baby Fisk
06-08-2004, 08:49 AM
This discussion re. the Metrodome vents has been going on for years. If MLB hasn't stepped in by now (mind you, when has MLB ever done ANYTHING quickly?), then Minny will continue to get away with it. Maybe it's my inner Billy Martin, but I'm chuckling at how everyone is letting this get under their skin.

SEALgep
06-08-2004, 08:52 AM
Originally posted by Baby Fisk
This discussion re. the Metrodome vents has been going on for years. If MLB hasn't stepped in by now (mind you, when has MLB ever done ANYTHING quickly?), then Minny will continue to get away with it. Maybe it's my inner Billy Martin, but I'm chuckling at how everyone is letting this get under their skin. That's why I hope ESPN does a story on it on Outside the Lines. Force MLB not to ignore it.

Lip Man 1
06-08-2004, 10:48 AM
From the interview with J.C. Martin here at WSI:

ML: The Sox won 95 games in 1965 but all everyone seems to remember was the "frozen ball" controversy. As an honest Southern gentleman, Iíve got to ask you, did the Sox freeze the balls?

JCM: (laughing) "I have no information that actually happened. But I will tell you this, the balls that year were the heaviest and had the highest seams Iíve ever seen. When a ball is moist the seams pop up and that went on all year. Iíll tell you a story, we were playing the Twins and Harmon Killebrew hit a shot to right center and he stood there and watched it. Well the ball hit the wall and Harmon had to suddenly start running. So the next time he comes up, he tells me, ĎJ.C. thereís something going on with those balls.í He knew when he hit a ball good and when it should have been a home run! Remember that we had other advantages at Comiskey Park. Gene Bossard our head groundskeeper, drilled two holes in the dirt in front of home plate. Heíd stick a hose in those and floor the whole area, turning it into mud. You couldnít have driven a ball past our infield with a cannon. The ball would hit that mud on its way out to the infield and just die.

Hereís another story, I swear itís true. Right before a game one time against Minnesota, I saw the whole Twins team come out of the dugout and start stomping the ground in front of home plate. Everybody! They were trying to pack that loose dirt back down."

Lip

MisterB
06-08-2004, 11:49 AM
Originally posted by Palehose13
Yepperz. I understand "home field advantage", but only if it effects both teams the same way. That is why no one complains about Minny building their team on speed and defense which definitely helps when you play 81 games in that dome.

Isn't there a rule for teams with retractable roofs that once an inning is started with the roof open(or closed) it has to stay that way until the completion of the inning so that the conditions are the same for both teams.

Actually I believe they closed the roof at Safeco both Saturday and Sunday and did it while play continued on the field. I distinctly remember the announcers commenting on it raining at home plate while Perez and Harris were covered as the roof closed.

fhqwhgads
06-08-2004, 01:29 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Anyone who roots for a team managed by a guy like Ron Gardenhire and led by Doug Mientkiewicz ought to know all about whiny bitches.

I'll give you Doug M (at least I see how Sox fans would perceive it), but "a guy like Ron Gardenhire"? Firstly, I don't recall him whining about anything, and I doubt "whiny" could be applied to his attitude and statements to the press. Secondly, on a board that complains as much as this one does about its management, I don't see what the beef could possibly be with his management style.

I'm actually asking, what makes Gardenhire seem like a "whiny bitch" to you?

PaleHoseGeorge
06-08-2004, 01:33 PM
Originally posted by fhqwhgads
I'll give you Doug M (at least I see how Sox fans would perceive it), but "a guy like Ron Gardenhire"? Firstly, I don't recall him whining about anything, and I doubt "whiny" could be applied to his attitude and statements to the press. Secondly, on a board that complains as much as this one does about its management, I don't see what the beef could possibly be with his management style.

I'm actually asking, what makes Gardenhire seem like a "whiny bitch" to you?

Oh, please... the guy has the biggest clubhouse bulletin board in all of organized baseball. Meanwhile his own whiny bitches carry on with impunity (Dougie Miecksinsiwad being Exhibit A).

fhqwhgads
06-08-2004, 01:51 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Oh, please... the guy has the biggest clubhouse bulletin board in all of organized baseball. Meanwhile his own whiny bitches carry on with impunity (Dougie Miecksinsiwad being Exhibit A).

I didn't realize that using bulletin board material was equivalent to whining. Now I do. Carry on... :D:

PaleHoseGeorge
06-08-2004, 01:52 PM
Originally posted by fhqwhgads
I didn't realize that using bulletin board material was equivalent to whining. Now I do. Carry on... :D:

It's only whining if you whine about others whining... like they routinely do inside that whiny bitch's clubhouse.

Now back to the Twins' fan board... whoops... nevermind!

:D:
:D:

Skorch
06-08-2004, 02:05 PM
What the hell, here's my two cents. This is pretty long. If you don't have the patience to read all of it I'll sum it up at the bottom with a few extra thoughts of my own.

Yesterday's StarTribune.com re-ran the original story where Dick Ericson, the maintenance worker in question who claims he adjusted the air vents so that they blew out late in the game in important situations. If you're registered with the Star/Tribune You can read about it at: http://www.startribune.com/stories/503/4815868.html (http://)

There are two parts to this particular story, one section detailing where Ericson said he did it on certain occassions, and another section that goes into the results of the 2 studies that were done on the subject. I'll try to summarize both sections for you. Let me add that anything in quotes is not my own but the words of Randy Furst, the Star/Tribune writer who broke the initial story.

Regarding Dick Ericson, yes, he admitted that while he was employed as 'Dome superintendent from 1984-95 (Twins won the World Series in '87 and '91) that in the late innings he would manipulate the airflow in certain situations.

Randy Furst of the Star Tribune: But he readily admits to increasing the number of fans blowing from behind home plate, between first and third bases, starting in the bottom of the eighth inning if the Twins were behind. That way, the Twins got two at-bats with the extra air currents, while the visiting team got one, he said. And if the game was tied, he might not turn up the air flow until the bottom of the ninth.

Ericson said that manipulating the air flow was his idea and that he was never asked to do it by Twins officials or by the sports commission. Nor did Twins or Dome officials ever ask him whether he manipulated air flow, he said.

Ericson said he never manipulated the fans to blow toward home plate when opposing teams were up to bat. That, he said, would not be fair.

Despite his claim that he manipulated the air currents to help the Twins, Ericson still had his own peculiar rules of fairness.

If the Twins were ahead late in the game, he said, he would keep the air flow "balanced" with air pouring in from all sides of the stadium.

If the game was tied, Ericson might wait until the bottom of the ninth inning, when the Twins were up, to turn up the air flow behind home plate. His justification for manipulating the fans at that moment, he said, was that if a Twin hit a game-winning home run, people would begin pouring out of the stadium, many doors would be thrown open, and he would need more air flowing into the stadium to keep the roof up.

But if the game went into extra innings, Ericson said he wouldn't turn the fans down for the opposing team's at-bat.

"That would be cheating," he said.

This was all in between 1984 and 1995. Whether or not it's still happening today is up for debate. For the sake of argument lets say it is. Does it really make a difference? This is where the results of the studies come in.

The first test:

Randy Furst of the Star Tribune: The students built an air cannon with enough power to launch baseballs into the upper deck. To ensure consistency during the test, the device included an electromagnetic trigger, a gauge to monitor air pressure, and a gauge to measure the velocity of each ball fired into the outfield.

Metrodome officials continued to deny that there had ever been any improprieties in the manipulation of air currents. They said that even if manipulation had been attempted, the air flow was too small, relative to the volume of air in the Metrodome, to affect the flight of the ball. Although they disagreed with the premise, they willingly allowed the tests to proceed.

On a morning in late April, Marusic (Skorch's note: a professor of fluid dynamics with expertise in aerodynamics at the University of Minnesota, first name Ivan) assembled his class of juniors and seniors on the Metrodome turf and set up the air cannon to the right of home plate. Students were assigned to the operations center to monitor the fan controls being run by the Dome field crew. Marusic periodically asked that operators turn various fans on or off. A student with a walkie-talkie monitored the staffers as they adjusted the fans.

Baseballs vary slightly in size, so each one was measured for weight and diameter, and the exact angle and velocity of each ball fired was recorded so as to factor in variations. The cannon's power, driven by compressed air, was reduced so that the balls landed in the outfield rather than the stands. The distance each ball traveled was marked by students and measured afterward with a tape measure.

After firing 83 baseballs at a 50-degree angle, Marusic analyzed the results and concluded that the balls went, on average, about 3 1/2 feet farther when the fans behind home plate were blowing.

Marusic also tested the opposite scenario and discovered that balls landed about 3 1/2 feet shorter when the outfield fans were turned on, blowing the air inward, and the home plate fans were turned off.



The Second Test:

Randy Furst of the Star Tribune: Sanford Weisberg, director of the Statistical Consulting Service at the University of Minnesota, examined the test results at Marusic's request and concluded that there was a 95 percent confidence that the results were accurate for that one test.

So in May, with the cooperation of the Dome staff, Marusic ran the test again, this time firing 64 balls at angles of 36, 42 and 50 degrees. The results were markedly different. This time, Weisberg found that the air currents had no impact on the distance the ball traveled.

Weisberg concluded that on the basis of the two tests "it seems unlikely" that manipulating the fans could affect the game.

His only caveat was that air currents "potentially" might have an effect on a baseball's distance, if one could duplicate the conditions in place during the first test. (skorch's note: emphasis mine)

Marusic counseled caution about concluding whether air blown out of the ducts could affect the ball's trajectory.

"I'm saying it's possible," he said. "I am not saying it's probable."


So lets sum this up:

1) Dick Ericson did admit to adjusting the vents in late innings of games to blow outward in late innings to help the Twins. However he did not adjust them to stop blowing or to blow plateward during the opposing at-bats.

2) Any attempts to adjust the flight of the ball with the air vents have yielded differing results. One test showed a difference of 3.5 feet in either direction, another test showed no difference.

I'll concede that trying to adjust the flight of the ball to the distinct advantage of the home team by an employee of the venue is shady. But it doesn't look like you can really predict when adjusting the fans is really going to have the desired effect or not.

Lets look at this from another direction. Assume that the fans are on and conditions are right for a ball hit to travel 3.5 feet less of of Jose Valentin's bat. He hits the ball and it's heading for the outfield. Jacque Jones runs in to try to make the catch from rightfield and it lands 2 feet in front of him. Valentin has a base hit whereas if they had left the fans alone Torii makes a catch and records the out. Switching sides, if the fans are blowing out and Lew Ford does the same thing, it'd be easier to catch by Carlos Lee as it's traveling in the air longer.

Since both of these events are as likely to happen than a ball being hit that just misses/just clears the fence by the 3.5 foot margin a person could make the argument adjusting the airflow accordingly hurts the Twins. I don't have the nerve to suggest it with any seriousness or sincerity, but it's food for thought.

Originally posted by batmanZoSo: The place is a joke in the first place...

You'll get no argument from me. I don't like the Dome either. Neither do the Twins and they're fighting to try to get a real stadium built.

*whew*. I can't believe I spent my lunch hour and then some on this.

skottyj242
06-08-2004, 02:16 PM
Don't you think that to turn the a.c. on/off in a building that size would require something called TIME? You can't start it one half inning then turn it back on the next. Look at lights in stadiums it takes a good half hour for them all to turn on. The a.c. has nothing to do with it, use your heads people.

PaulDrake
06-08-2004, 02:18 PM
Should the White Sox bring back the frozen baseball?

just_visiting
06-08-2004, 02:19 PM
Originally posted by skottyj242
Don't you think that to turn the a.c. on/off in a building that size would require something called TIME? You can't start it one half inning then turn it back on the next. Look at lights in stadiums it takes a good half hour for them all to turn on. The a.c. has nothing to do with it, use your heads people. It's not the AC he was manipulating; it was the air pressure fans. The roof is supported in large part by positive air pressure. Ever been to the Humpdome? When you leave, the air pressure practically blows you off your feet.

It doesn't take much to turn on blower fans.

SEALgep
06-08-2004, 02:46 PM
Originally posted by Skorch

I'll concede that trying to adjust the flight of the ball to the distinct advantage of the home team by an employee of the venue is shady. But it doesn't look like you can really predict when adjusting the fans is really going to have the desired effect or not.

Lets look at this from another direction. Assume that the fans are on and conditions are right for a ball hit to travel 3.5 feet less of of Jose Valentin's bat. He hits the ball and it's heading for the outfield. Jacque Jones runs in to try to make the catch from rightfield and it lands 2 feet in front of him. Valentin has a base hit whereas if they had left the fans alone Torii makes a catch and records the out. Switching sides, if the fans are blowing out and Lew Ford does the same thing, it'd be easier to catch by Carlos Lee as it's traveling in the air longer.

Since both of these events are as likely to happen than a ball being hit that just misses/just clears the fence by the 3.5 foot margin a person could make the argument adjusting the airflow accordingly hurts the Twins. I don't have the nerve to suggest it with any seriousness or sincerity, but it's food for thought.
Valentin isn't more or less likely to get a hit because it isn't going to change Jone's perception of where the ball is going to land, only where it is going to land. It's definitely cheating. If it didn't have any positive benefit to the Twins, why are they continuing to do it?

fhqwhgads
06-08-2004, 03:41 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
If it didn't have any positive benefit to the Twins, why are they continuing to do it?

Superstition? Some players refuse to/always step on the foul line when going on/off the field, but I doubt it makes a difference. They just do it.

To the best of my knowledge, as of today, the "air pressure" fans are currently directly controlled by the measured air pressure in the building, and are automatically activated if the pressure lowers to a certain point. This always happens in the late innings when people leave early with their crabby kids (or when the Twins' are blowing out their opponents by so much that it isn't fun anymore)

AFAIK, only the A/C fans could be manipulated during a game, and I doubt they have the power to affect the ball by inches, let alone feet.

I will ask the crew when I head to the Dome on the 26th/27th for the opening of the Light Rail system. (There are perks to having Metrodome-crew headset access!) I'll give y'all my report if you'd like.

illiniwhitesox
06-08-2004, 03:52 PM
Originally posted by samram
The difference is the field is the same for both teams, whereas if this were true, they are basically changing the dimensions of the park for one team. The skewed foul lines can help a bunter on either team.

It may be the same element for both teams, however, in these cases it will impact favorably one team and impact detrimentally the other!!

SEALgep
06-08-2004, 04:01 PM
Originally posted by fhqwhgads
Superstition? Some players refuse to/always step on the foul line when going on/off the field, but I doubt it makes a difference. They just do it.

To the best of my knowledge, as of today, the "air pressure" fans are currently directly controlled by the measured air pressure in the building, and are automatically activated if the pressure lowers to a certain point. This always happens in the late innings when people leave early with their crabby kids (or when the Twins' are blowing out their opponents by so much that it isn't fun anymore)

AFAIK, only the A/C fans could be manipulated during a game, and I doubt they have the power to affect the ball by inches, let alone feet.

I will ask the crew when I head to the Dome on the 26th/27th for the opening of the Light Rail system. (There are perks to having Metrodome-crew headset access!) I'll give y'all my report if you'd like. You doubt it has any affect on the ball in feet or inches? Well I think it does. I'd definitely like to hear what he says, but it's going to be biased. Anyhow, you're going to have to have a better argument other than superstition. The players can do whatever if they're superstitious, but the minute a stadium crew member uses his superstition to dictate the game, I have a problem with that.

SEALgep
06-08-2004, 04:05 PM
Originally posted by illiniwhitesox
It may be the same element for both teams, however, in these cases it will impact favorably one team and impact detrimentally the other!! How? If they both play on the exact same field and same conditions, then that is as fair as you can get. Home field advantage is home field advantage, but manipulating the conditions to favor you and disadvantage your opponent is when it becomes detrimental.

samram
06-08-2004, 04:18 PM
Originally posted by illiniwhitesox
It may be the same element for both teams, however, in these cases it will impact favorably one team and impact detrimentally the other!!

Yes, but only due to the make-up of the teams. For instance, if you have a team like the Sox, with several right-handed power hitters, it may make sense to set the fences back (or maybe bring them in) to take advantage of their power and give the Sox an advantage over any other team. However, the grounds crew can't move the fences between innings. It's gamesmanship versus cheating. The Lakers used to over-inflate the ball to accomodate Magic's high dribble- but the ball was the same for both teams. Therefore, despite the detriment to one team, the conditions were the same for both teams. I think this is also the point SEALgep is trying to make.

ma-gaga
06-08-2004, 04:20 PM
I took a tour of the inner Metrodome last year, and they can adjust the pressure of the dome pretty quickly depending on the external/internal conditions (doors open = major deflation need to increase pressure, major storm = increase the internal pressure to withstand, hottie in miniskirt approaching exits, must increase pressure immediately). So, there may be 2 different issues, the A/C fans on and the increased internal pressure. You'd think that cranking up the pressure would decrease the number of homers hit and the fans would loft the balls a little more. I'd like to see this clarified a bit.

Empirically, I've been "looking" for this for the last year or so, and have yet to feel any significant wind gusts, or noticible changes between innings. I've noticed the a/c fans on, but they weren't 'turned on' as the Twins came to bat, and then 'turned off' once they were done. I think it's perception mainly. They are probably automatically controlled to turn on once the pressure/temperature reaches a certain threshold. Yeah, maybe it was right before Rondell White's blast, who knows. I highly doubt any sabotage. That would take serious deviousness. And we all know that the Twins organization is filled with Angels and Saints...

I love the fact that Gardy is a whiny bitch. He's one of our very own. I don't know what I'm going to do once they trade Mientkiewicz away. Who is going to be my favorite player?!?

:)