PDA

View Full Version : ozzie


idseer
06-06-2004, 11:47 PM
ozzie has been great for this team there is no doubt.

but he sure proves the adage that 'no one is perfect' by his TOTAL inability to see koch for what he is ... a BAD pitcher! not even average.
i have to wonder how many games the sox will lose because he doesn't have the sense to make his best reliever the closer.

how can a veteran like ozzie not see this simple fact?

Thunderstruck30
06-06-2004, 11:49 PM
Last year Manuel waited til July to get a new closer and that may have cost us the division. If Ozzie has a brain in his head, he will do away with Koch as the closer.

duke of dorwood
06-06-2004, 11:49 PM
Ozzie also has not given Big Frank ANY time at first and suddenly Interleague is here. Things are happening a bit to fast for him, it seems.

batmanZoSo
06-06-2004, 11:50 PM
Originally posted by idseer
ozzie has been great for this team there is no doubt.

but he sure proves the adage that 'no one is perfect' by his TOTAL inability to see koch for what he is ... a BAD pitcher! not even average.
i have to wonder how many games the sox will lose because he doesn't have the sense to make his best reliever the closer.

how can a veteran like ozzie not see this simple fact?

He doesn't know how to manage a pitching staff whatsoever. Our four starters are in the top 8 in pitches per start, with Buehrle 1 and Loaiza 3. He never takes out the starter until we're in trouble. The inning before Loaiza gave up the homer to Winn, he was scuffling...should've been taken out after getting out of it. But Ozzie puts him out there to see how much he can get out of him. It's all reaction with him. He costs us games with that crap.

soxfan2425
06-06-2004, 11:51 PM
If Ozzie is sticking with kock all season then im guessing he will blow - games for us, maybe even costing us the division or even a playoff birth.

balboner
06-06-2004, 11:54 PM
I honestly hope that if Koch stays as closer for the rest of this year, and the Sox don't win the division, that when he goes, KW goes. I can't wait for this team to be rid of Koch, Sandy, and a SS that can only hit off of a righty.

idseer
06-06-2004, 11:55 PM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo
He doesn't know how to manage a pitching staff whatsoever. Our four starters are in the top 8 in pitches per start, with Buehrle 1 and Loaiza 3. He never takes out the starter until we're in trouble. The inning before Loaiza gave up the homer to Winn, he was scuffling...should've been taken out after getting out of it. But Ozzie puts him out there to see how much he can get out of him. It's all reaction with him. He costs us games with that crap.

leaving in the starters longer doesn't bother me at all. i think they can handle it and i'd say so far it's born out. but managing the relievers is another thing altogether. isn't he paying any attention to his pitching coach? ................ or ......... is someone else calling the shots regarding koch? you'll forgive my suspicions about a JR/KW operation.

Bucktown
06-06-2004, 11:57 PM
Ozzie likes to back up his players when they don't execute. But he doesn't tolerate players who are not playing sound, fundamental baseball. The steals that Koch gave up, without a single pickoff attempt, will not be tolerated by Ozzie. This is the start of the Shingo era.

Win1ForMe
06-06-2004, 11:58 PM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo
He doesn't know how to manage a pitching staff whatsoever. Our four starters are in the top 8 in pitches per start, with Buehrle 1 and Loaiza 3. He never takes out the starter until we're in trouble. The inning before Loaiza gave up the homer to Winn, he was scuffling...should've been taken out after getting out of it. But Ozzie puts him out there to see how much he can get out of him. It's all reaction with him. He costs us games with that crap.

This is a great post. Basically everything I wanted to say.

vegyrex
06-07-2004, 12:00 AM
Originally posted by idseer


how can a veteran like ozzie not see this simple fact?

I hope this is a wake up call for Ozzie.

I'm totally :angry: about tonights game.

Lip Man 1
06-07-2004, 12:02 AM
Did you consider that Ozzie leaves the starters in because he has more faith in their ability to pitch out of trouble then the bullpen which has been mediocre basically the entire season?

Lip

pssondacubs
06-07-2004, 12:05 AM
Where's Terry Bevington when you need him?

batmanZoSo
06-07-2004, 12:07 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Did you consider that Ozzie leaves the starters in because he has more faith in their ability to pitch out of trouble then the bullpen which has been mediocre basically the entire season?

Lip

We have a few guys he can go to and he just doesn't do it sometimes. I guarantee at least one starter will be hurt next year because of being overworked if this keeps up all year.

illinibk
06-07-2004, 12:09 AM
Originally posted by pssondacubs
Where's Terry Bevington when you need him?


ugghhhh...he morphed into Billy Koch

JB98
06-07-2004, 12:09 AM
I think the starters all rank in the top 10 in pitches thrown because they have all been effective in the vast majority of their starts. Other than Buehrle's bad game vs. the Yankees, none of the top four have been knocked out early all season. I think most quality starts consist of 100-110 pitches. None of the pitchers have had that 60-pitch outing where they get knocked out in the third or fourth. That drives the average up.

batmanZoSo
06-07-2004, 12:10 AM
Originally posted by idseer
leaving in the starters longer doesn't bother me at all. i think they can handle it and i'd say so far it's born out. but managing the relievers is another thing altogether. isn't he paying any attention to his pitching coach? ................ or ......... is someone else calling the shots regarding koch? you'll forgive my suspicions about a JR/KW operation.

He doesn't know how to make moves, period. First Valentin's in there...AGAIN..versus a lefty. He also never uses Olivo's superior defense late in games. Maybe he pinch hit for Miguel tonight, but they wouldn't be running wild on Olivo I can assure you of that. Crede's still playing every day and is basically Royce Clayton with more power. Rob Deer II.

South Side
06-07-2004, 12:12 AM
Originally posted by balboner
I honestly hope that if Koch stays as closer for the rest of this year, and the Sox don't win the division, that when he goes, KW goes. I can't wait for this team to be rid of Koch, Sandy, and a SS that can only hit off of a righty.

Are you kidding me? You're going to spare Koch some of the blame and rip on Sandy?? How do you expect him to throw any of them out when they're already on the bag when he catches the ball??? KOCH BLOWS... IT WAS ALL HIS FAULT! Nothing is wrong with Sandy.

MRKARNO
06-07-2004, 12:13 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Did you consider that Ozzie leaves the starters in because he has more faith in their ability to pitch out of trouble then the bullpen which has been mediocre basically the entire season?

Lip

Well I think with a lead you can have relative confidence in Jackson, Cotts, Marte and Takatsu. That way if you have to pull the starter after 5 it's not too bad. Adkins, Koch and Politte=Clean up work. Send down Adkins for Wunsch, I'd have confidence in him to get outs with a thin lead compared with Adkins

batmanZoSo
06-07-2004, 12:16 AM
Originally posted by JB98
I think the starters all rank in the top 10 in pitches thrown because they have all been effective in the vast majority of their starts. Other than Buehrle's bad game vs. the Yankees, none of the top four have been knocked out early all season. I think most quality starts consist of 100-110 pitches. None of the pitchers have had that 60-pitch outing where they get knocked out in the third or fourth. That drives the average up.

That has something to do with it, but it's not nearly all of it. Ozzie leaves in the starter until he absolutely cannot anymore. Many times he's let the starter throw 20 extra pitches he shouldn't have.

And some of it is JR/KW not giving him a fifth starter. Sure, the four starters always get their four days rest, but sometimes you need five. Other pitchers do. Right now is a time when Buehrle should be getting five days rest with the off day but will only get the normal four.

After Tuesday, Buehrle will have started 23% of our games. Normally it should be 20. He's on pace to make 38 starts. I'm not sure but that should definitely lead baseball. And he'd probably push 260 innings as well.

stillz
06-07-2004, 12:19 AM
We don't have a 5th starter and Koch is bogus. I expect Shingo to be closing soon. Losing 4 of 5 is one thing. 3 of 4 due to ineffective bullpen is sad. I hope there's a mild shake-up.

Play Thomas at 1st!

idseer
06-07-2004, 12:20 AM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo
He doesn't know how to make moves, period. First Valentin's in there...AGAIN..versus a lefty. He also never uses Olivo's superior defense late in games. Maybe he pinch hit for Miguel tonight, but they wouldn't be running wild on Olivo I can assure you of that. Crede's still playing every day and is basically Royce Clayton with more power. Rob Deer II.

i agree with you on valentin, olivo and crede in general, but with magglio out i can understand he has fewer choices than normal.
i think i'm more comfortable with jose over dransfeldt in the field and apparently oz feels the same.
crede? i don't know what's going on with him. i think oz just feels he has to play thru this bad period.
olivo SHOULD be the number one catcher and the few times alomar does start he should be replaced after the 5th at any critical point. oz isn't doing that. i don't understand his thinkig there. i KNOW he likes olivo.

hey, once again ... oz makes mistakes, but he's still such an improvement over JM and i believe he WILL learn. i have a hard time jumping too much on him at this point in time.

Deadguy
06-07-2004, 12:26 AM
Originally posted by idseer
ozzie has been great for this team there is no doubt.

but he sure proves the adage that 'no one is perfect' by his TOTAL inability to see koch for what he is ... a BAD pitcher! not even average.
i have to wonder how many games the sox will lose because he doesn't have the sense to make his best reliever the closer.

how can a veteran like ozzie not see this simple fact?

Before you blast Ozzie, you should take into account the possibility that his hands may be tied by upper management, since it is hard to justify having a 6 million dollar set up man.

Don't forget what a control freak KW is and how big his ego is. He traded for Koch to be the closer on this team, and may have some influence on Ozzie as far as who should be the closer on this team.

The same phenomenon occurred last season when Konerko was an absolute joke, and it was clear that Daubach was the better option, especially when a RHP was on the mound. However, Konerko name was still penciled into the lineup for large amount of the time because of his salary. There was really no other option, since Konerko was still owed 17.5 million over the next two seasons, and the Sox had to let him play through his slump, despite the fact that he was hurting the team.

The situation this season is a little different with Koch, as he can simply be released as this is the final year of his contract. KW needs to be man enough to finally admit that he screwed up in trading for Koch, and eat the remainder of his salary. Or perhaps that move will be blocked by the man that pulls his strings.

idseer
06-07-2004, 12:35 AM
Originally posted by Deadguy
Before you blast Ozzie, you should take into account the possibility that his hands may be tied by upper management, since it is hard to justify having a 6 million dollar set up man.

Don't forget what a control freak KW is and how big his ego is. He traded for Koch to be the closer on this team, and may have some influence on Ozzie as far as who should be the closer on this team.

The same phenomenon occurred last season when Konerko was an absolute joke, and it was clear that Daubach was the better option, especially when a RHP was on the mound. However, Konerko name was still penciled into the lineup for large amount of the time because of his salary. There was really no other option, since Konerko was still owed 17.5 million over the next two seasons, and the Sox had to let him play through his slump, despite the fact that he was hurting the team.

The situation this season is a little different with Koch, as he can simply be released as this is the final year of his contract. KW needs to be man enough to finally admit that he screwed up in trading for Koch, and eat the remainder of his salary. Or perhaps that move will be blocked by the man that pulls his strings.

actually i've suggested this more than once.

isn't it ironic that our relatively tight budget is hurting us in 2 ways? just not being able to sign all the talent we should ... and also HAVING to play guys even when they stink because we're paying them so much!

FoulTerritory
06-07-2004, 12:44 AM
Originally posted by JB98
I think the starters all rank in the top 10 in pitches thrown because they have all been effective in the vast majority of their starts. Other than Buehrle's bad game vs. the Yankees, none of the top four have been knocked out early all season. I think most quality starts consist of 100-110 pitches. None of the pitchers have had that 60-pitch outing where they get knocked out in the third or fourth. That drives the average up.

This is an astute post. Our starters are in the tops (i think 2nd) in the AL in quality starts, so that natrually gives them more innings because they're pitching well. I think Ozzie is doing a fine job of handling the staff, except the Koch debacle of course.