PDA

View Full Version : Ways to improve the Sox


A. Cavatica
06-06-2004, 12:40 AM
Without a doubt, the #1 need is a top-flight starter, to push the other starters back a turn and take the load off the bullpen. If we get nothing else by the trade deadline, please let us get Garcia or Sheets or Sabathia.

What else is on your shopping list? Here's mine.

- A reliable righthanded reliever. Sorry, but I have little confidence in Koch, Politte, & Adkins at this point. Surely Diaz or Grilli or Majewski or Bajenaru or Fields or somebody in our system can get six outs. (Hey, whatever happened to Antonio Osuna?) Acquire a starter, replace Adkins or Politte with above rookie, and our pen would be in pretty good shape.

- A centerfielder. I'd like to see Harris back at second, Uribe at short, and Valentin in some sort of platoon arrangement. But that's not going to happen unless we find a two-way CF who can provide more production than Jose. (I actually think the answer may be right under our noses, in Reed, but I'd be pleasantly surprised if we could acquire Finley without giving up too much.)

- Another catcher. I don't feel comfortable with just Olivo and Alomar, and neither does Ozzie -- hence we have to carry Burke. Would anyone else like to have Kendall back there instead of Alomar?

- A third baseman. I hate to give up on Crede, because he's got the tools and he's stayed steady on defense, but this first-half slump business is ridiculous. Right now he's the biggest hole in the lineup, and we have to start looking for an alternative. Mackowiak would be a great pickup: lefty bat, local guy, versatile. But I wouldn't overspend because Uribe and/or Valentin could see more time here if we acquire a CF.

kittle42
06-06-2004, 12:45 AM
24 more Ross Gloads.

jeremyb1
06-06-2004, 12:54 AM
I agree we need another starter but what's the fixation with finding a new number one starter. First of all there's no way that we're going to add a player that will outperform Buehrle in a deadline deal. Secondly, what is wrong with the other pitchers? Loaiza is a 20 game winner with a sub 4 ERA, he can't be a two? Garland has been brilliant and Schoenweis is at least a good number four. Another competent starter would be nice but asking for a starter that is better than all four of our stellar starting pitchers is greedy in my opinion.

batmanZoSo
06-06-2004, 01:13 AM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
I agree we need another starter but what's the fixation with finding a new number one starter. First of all there's no way that we're going to add a player that will outperform Buehrle in a deadline deal. Secondly, what is wrong with the other pitchers? Loaiza is a 20 game winner with a sub 4 ERA, he can't be a two? Garland has been brilliant and Schoenweis is at least a good number four. Another competent starter would be nice but asking for a starter that is better than all four of our stellar starting pitchers is greedy in my opinion.

If we play .111 ball every fifth day we might not even make the playoffs. Garcia is capable of outperforming Buehrle and he's gonna be up for the taking. Then we'll need another trade for a closer.

Garcia and a closer will make us one of the top 5 teams in the game. If we had Garcia who's 3-4 with a 3 something in Seattle...let's say he went 4-3 (which is very conservative) with us so far this year...while our collective fifth starter went what 0-7? Right now we'd be at least 34-19.

We at least need to get that good starter, whoever it is. He should be at least as good as our top two. Go for it.

jeremyb1
06-06-2004, 01:24 AM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo
If we play .111 ball every fifth day we might not even make the playoffs. Garcia is capable of outperforming Buehrle and he's gonna be up for the taking. Then we'll need another trade for a closer.

Garcia and a closer will make us one of the top 5 teams in the game. If we had Garcia who's 3-4 with a 3 something in Seattle...let's say he went 4-3 (which is very conservative) with us so far this year...while our collective fifth starter went what 0-7? Right now we'd be at least 34-19.

We at least need to get that good starter, whoever it is. He should be at least as good as our top two. Go for it.

I absolutely agree we'll struggle if we continue to lose everytime the fifth starter's spot comes up but 1) we're dealing with a real small sample size, even if the fifth starters' ERA continues to be 9 which it won't even if we stay in house we'll score 7 or 8 runs and win every so often 2) as you say the most pressing issue is making the playoffs because unless the new starter is head and shoulders above our current fourth starter (Schoenweis I suppose) the effect will be slight in the playoffs when we only use four starters.

As far as Garcia vs. Buehrle, I couldn't disagree with you more. First of all, you're putting an extreme emphasis on 11 starts this season when Garcia has been mediocre the past two and Buehrle bests him in career ERA 3.67 to 3.91. Assuming we can learn something from this season, Garcia is only slightly ahead of Buehrle in ERA 3.18 to 3.30. Buehrle is better than Garcia in walks per nine innings and K's per nine innings. Garcia has an edge only in HRs.

People seem to be overestimating Garcia simply because we don't have him and we've struggled in the fifth starters spot. He's a very good pitcher but he's not all world. Garcia has only been outstanding in '01 and for 11 starts this season from which he seems to be coming back down to earth. Most likely '01 is the outlier and he's a good two but not an untouchable number one starter.

fquaye149
06-06-2004, 01:35 AM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
I absolutely agree we'll struggle if we continue to lose everytime the fifth starter's spot comes up but 1) we're dealing with a real small sample size, even if the fifth starters' ERA continues to be 9 which it won't even if we stay in house we'll score 7 or 8 runs and win every so often 2) as you say the most pressing issue is making the playoffs because unless the new starter is head and shoulders above our current fourth starter (Schoenweis I suppose) the effect will be slight in the playoffs when we only use four starters.

As far as Garcia vs. Buehrle, I couldn't disagree with you more. First of all, you're putting an extreme emphasis on 11 starts this season when Garcia has been mediocre the past two and Buehrle bests him in career ERA 3.67 to 3.91. Assuming we can learn something from this season, Garcia is only slightly ahead of Buehrle in ERA 3.18 to 3.30. Buehrle is better than Garcia in walks per nine innings and K's per nine innings. Garcia has an edge only in HRs.

People seem to be overestimating Garcia simply because we don't have him and we've struggled in the fifth starters spot. He's a very good pitcher but he's not all world. Garcia has only been outstanding in '01 and for 11 starts this season from which he seems to be coming back down to earth. Most likely '01 is the outlier and he's a good two but not an untouchable number one starter.


stamped and approved



garcia's best season came in 2001. How were the mariners as a team in 2001?

MRKARNO
06-06-2004, 01:45 AM
Well if we can get Garcia, and it appears we can, there's no reason not to get him. We cant continue pissing away games like that out of the 5 hole though. Down the stretch for the last month and a half we're going to need the 5th starter almost every turn of the rotation.

Also, Schoeneweis's start yesterday was very unencouraging. He couldnt find the strikezone for his life (except on that pitch to Boone). He's going to regress severely if he cant go back to throwing strikes.

IMO, we just need Freddy Garcia and we're probably the 2nd best team behind NYY at this stage of the game.

jeremyb1
06-06-2004, 02:09 AM
Originally posted by MRKARNO
Well if we can get Garcia, and it appears we can, there's no reason not to get him. We cant continue pissing away games like that out of the 5 hole though. Down the stretch for the last month and a half we're going to need the 5th starter almost every turn of the rotation.

Also, Schoeneweis's start yesterday was very unencouraging. He couldnt find the strikezone for his life (except on that pitch to Boone). He's going to regress severely if he cant go back to throwing strikes.

IMO, we just need Freddy Garcia and we're probably the 2nd best team behind NYY at this stage of the game.

Agreed (assuming that "if we can get him there's no reason not to" doesn't mean we should trade Seattle whoever they ask for).

MRKARNO
06-06-2004, 02:16 AM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
Agreed (assuming that "if we can get him there's no reason not to" doesn't mean we should trade Seattle whoever they ask for).

Well if the talks with the Twins get really serious we might have to overpay and that's probably why they're even in the discussion, to drive up the price for us. Them getting Garcia would be such a huge swing that we must do anything to prevent it, even doing a three way trade with the Yankees to help them get him.

But I think we realistically can get him without giving up Borchard or Reed. It will be very interesting to say the least what we do if we draft Symanski tomorrow.

chidonez
06-06-2004, 08:33 AM
Bench Crede.

34 Inch Stick
06-06-2004, 12:20 PM
Garcia and Urbina, who will be available for cheap by the All Star break and who is signed for 1 year.

batmanZoSo
06-06-2004, 12:27 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
I absolutely agree we'll struggle if we continue to lose everytime the fifth starter's spot comes up but 1) we're dealing with a real small sample size, even if the fifth starters' ERA continues to be 9 which it won't even if we stay in house we'll score 7 or 8 runs and win every so often 2) as you say the most pressing issue is making the playoffs because unless the new starter is head and shoulders above our current fourth starter (Schoenweis I suppose) the effect will be slight in the playoffs when we only use four starters.

As far as Garcia vs. Buehrle, I couldn't disagree with you more. First of all, you're putting an extreme emphasis on 11 starts this season when Garcia has been mediocre the past two and Buehrle bests him in career ERA 3.67 to 3.91. Assuming we can learn something from this season, Garcia is only slightly ahead of Buehrle in ERA 3.18 to 3.30. Buehrle is better than Garcia in walks per nine innings and K's per nine innings. Garcia has an edge only in HRs.

People seem to be overestimating Garcia simply because we don't have him and we've struggled in the fifth starters spot. He's a very good pitcher but he's not all world. Garcia has only been outstanding in '01 and for 11 starts this season from which he seems to be coming back down to earth. Most likely '01 is the outlier and he's a good two but not an untouchable number one starter.

I said Garcia is capable of outperforming Buehrle, which is what you said we shouldn't expect to get in a trade. They're very close in quality, maybe the same. His best season was 18-4, that's better than any Buehrle year. The great part about getting Garcia is that Schoeneweis could go to the bullpen in the playoffs. That would greatly improve our chances.

Lip Man 1
06-06-2004, 12:38 PM
A starting pitcher for the back end and another hitter for the lineup (preferably left handed) who can give the team more depth and pop when Mags comes back (or who can help take up the slack while he is gone!)

Lip

CWSGuy406
06-06-2004, 12:53 PM
IIRC we only have one day off in September. We need a fifth starter. We need another shut-down guy in the bullpen, preferably a righty. We need another righty off the bench - Rowand doesn't do it for me.

MRKARNO
06-06-2004, 12:53 PM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo
I said Garcia is capable of outperforming Buehrle, which is what you said we shouldn't expect to get in a trade. They're very close in quality, maybe the same. His best season was 18-4, that's better than any Buehrle year. The great part about getting Garcia is that Schoeneweis could go to the bullpen in the playoffs. That would greatly improve our chances.

Garcia had a 3.04 ERA and Buerhle had a 3.29 ERA in 2001, both their best years in terms of ERA.

MRKARNO
06-06-2004, 12:55 PM
Originally posted by CWSGuy406
IIRC we only have one day off in September. We need a fifth starter. We need another shut-down guy in the bullpen, preferably a righty. We need another righty off the bench - Rowand doesn't do it for me.

We have three off days in our last 59 games (From August 3rd to October 3rd)

batmanZoSo
06-06-2004, 01:00 PM
Originally posted by CWSGuy406
IIRC we only have one day off in September. We need a fifth starter. We need another shut-down guy in the bullpen, preferably a righty. We need another righty off the bench - Rowand doesn't do it for me.

We've had so many days off this year so far it's not even funny. We even had a Thursday off. What the hell is that? It's gonna be really tough in September.