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JRIG
06-04-2004, 06:03 PM
One of the main arguments Friends of Koch have is that no matter how poorly he's pitched, Billy-boy has coverted 7 of 9 save oppotunites this year.

Even after blowing today's game, Joe Borowski has a total of -- you guessed it -- 2 blown saves this year. He's 9 for 11 in save opportunites.

Does that mean FOK would be just as happy, if not happier since the save percentage is better, to have Borowski as the Sox closer?

FarWestChicago
06-04-2004, 06:13 PM
Is there really a FOK contingent? FO is usually reserved for those who are extreme in their support for their guy. Buddy Lee was the next coming of Ozzie Smith, Aaron Rowand is a top tier fielder, Josh Paul was...well anything but worthless, Billy Beane walks 12 inches above the ground and anything he does that doesn't work out is "bad luck". Have you really seen anything like that for Krotch?

JRIG
06-04-2004, 06:15 PM
Originally posted by FarWestChicago
Is there really a FOK contingent? FO is usually reserved for those who are extreme in their support for their guy. Buddy Lee was the next coming of Ozzie Smith, Aaron Rowand is a top tier fielder, Josh Paul was...well anything but worthless, Billy Beane walks 12 inches above the ground and anything he does that doesn't work out is "bad luck". Have you really seen anything like that for Krotch?


Hey, if I'm labeled a FOBB for thinking Beane is a far superior GM than KW, then I get to label those who think Koch is actually a capable closer anything I want. :D:

FarWestChicago
06-04-2004, 06:22 PM
Originally posted by JRIG
Hey, if I'm labeled a FOBB for thinking Beane is a far superior GM than KW, then I get to label those who think Koch is actually a capable closer anything I want. :D: You are only a FOBB if you engage in their preposterous circular logic: e.g. "BB can only make good moves because by definition any move BB makes is good" and "if BB makes a move that doesn't work out, it's just bad luck". And true FOBB'dom is attained when you invert the circular logic against Kenny. Thinking BB is a better GM than Kenny doesn't reach FO level without the irrational part. :cool:

Voice of Reason
06-04-2004, 06:25 PM
I don't understand where FOBB fits in. Clayton was obviously uselss. Rowand is obviously a bench player. As is Paul. Beane is a great GM, he deserves accolades. Labelling someone a friend of Beane is maybe analagous to labelling them a friend of Magglio or since I guess Beane isn't our GM, a friend of Bonds.

MRKARNO
06-04-2004, 06:36 PM
I just started a poll in the Parking Lot on this so mods, do as you please with combining the two threads.

Dan Gelo
06-04-2004, 06:38 PM
I knew it was only a matter of time until this thread came up. I wouldn't want Borowski anywhere near this team. I don't even want Koch as the closer. That's a lose, lose question.

FarWestChicago
06-04-2004, 06:58 PM
Originally posted by Voice of Reason
I don't understand where FOBB fits in. Clayton was obviously uselss. Rowand is obviously a bench player. As is Paul. Beane is a great GM, he deserves accolades. Labelling someone a friend of Beane is maybe analagous to labelling them a friend of Magglio or since I guess Beane isn't our GM, a friend of Bonds. You missed some of what I wrote. I have no problem with somebody who thinks Beane is a great GM. But I can assure you his feet do touch the ground when he walks. If you believe that, you also aren't a FOBB. :smile:

jabrch
06-04-2004, 07:32 PM
I'd much rather have Koch than Borowski. Borowski's ERA is over 8. It is probably twice Koch's. I'd take Billy in a heartbeat over Koch!

elrod
06-04-2004, 08:26 PM
Borowski was atrocious today. He got incredibly lucky to give up only two runs. I think Baker has given up on him too. Remlinger was warming up while Borowski faced his second hitter. Not a vote of confidence.

Tragg
06-05-2004, 01:13 AM
I'll take Koch. He's pitched okay this year. That loss on Wed wasn't anywhere close to his fault.

And speaking of the cubs ( I don't want to start a thread on them so I'll hijack this one) did anyone hear Sutcliffe tonight? He said the Cubs, once they get wood and sosa back, will dominate baseball like the Lakers dominate the NBA. And then he starts salivating over Patterson and Ramirez- do you realize that they didn't have both these players in the lineup for the entirety last season and they STILL won the division. What's gonna happen with these great players in the lineup all year long?

It was really some laugh-out-loud stuff.

And while they certainly could win their division, they could also finish last

elrod
06-05-2004, 01:24 AM
And while they certainly could win their division, they could also finish last

And right now they're closer to last than first.

The problem the Cubs face is that they have three other teams that don't look like they're going away. The Astros have been inconsistent lately - though they've beaten the Cubs handily. The Cards are on fire - no telling when they'll let up. And the Reds have been beating some pretty good teams (FLA, HOU) so I don't see them faltering. I said it before today's game: the Cubs HAVE to sweep the Pirates. With Prior against Fogg's 6+ ERA, Zambrano (kills the Pirates) vs. Benson Saturday, and Maddux vs. Vogelsang and his 8+ ERA the Cubs are in prime position to sweep the Pirates and get their confidence back. Whoops. They blew the first one by making Fogg look like he did two years ago. The Cubs HAVE to win the next two or they are in deep trouble. Their schedule gets more difficult and the longest homestand almost through.

inta
06-05-2004, 02:40 AM
ugh... (pukes)

I guess it's no surprise I'd take Koch over borowski ANY DAY.

sure Borowski has 1 more save than koch. but he also has 4 losses
an 8.something ERA
less SO's
more BB's

gosox41
06-05-2004, 08:37 AM
Originally posted by elrod
And right now they're closer to last than first.

The problem the Cubs face is that they have three other teams that don't look like they're going away. The Astros have been inconsistent lately - though they've beaten the Cubs handily. The Cards are on fire - no telling when they'll let up. And the Reds have been beating some pretty good teams (FLA, HOU) so I don't see them faltering. I said it before today's game: the Cubs HAVE to sweep the Pirates. With Prior against Fogg's 6+ ERA, Zambrano (kills the Pirates) vs. Benson Saturday, and Maddux vs. Vogelsang and his 8+ ERA the Cubs are in prime position to sweep the Pirates and get their confidence back. Whoops. They blew the first one by making Fogg look like he did two years ago. The Cubs HAVE to win the next two or they are in deep trouble. Their schedule gets more difficult and the longest homestand almost through.


IMHO, the Reds pitching will come down to earth soon. And based on recent trends, Griffey is a likely candidate to suffer an injury.

The Cards lack the pitching depth. From what Iv'e read they don't have much in the farm system to back up their SP's.

Houston is the best bet to win the division among these 3. I root for them to win when they're playing the Cards or Reds. Of course when these teams are not playing each other I root for all 3 of them to win as well as the other 2 teams in the NL Central.


Bob

SSN721
06-05-2004, 08:48 AM
I dont think there is even a question, watching both pitchers which one would you rather have? And I only mean this as a choice between the lesser of two evils. I do not think for one second that Koch is lights out at all, but to honestly want Borowski over him is ludicrous in my opinion. I still dont know how Borowski has that many saves with an ERA that high and K rate so low. At times Koch has shown the ability to mow them down if he is in the mood that evening. Borowski has shown the ability to almost always give up runs on every oouting, just not enough to blow his saves, which still boggles my mind. I definitely think that Koch is the lesser evil of the two.

elrod
06-05-2004, 08:48 AM
People have been waiting for the Reds' pitching to come back to Earth for weeks now. It just may hold out. And I think Griffey really is back this year. As for the Cards, their pitching staff is finally stabilizing with Williams improving after a terrible start and Suppan giving a few good outings. Carpenter is amazing and Morris, despite a few subpar games, is still Morris.