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gosox41
06-03-2004, 07:00 PM
With the major league draft coming up soon I got to thinking about Professor Chaos (I got it right, Hal :D: ) and his drafting and player development ability.

Now I know this draft is rated as a weak one. And I certainly don't follow ameteur baseball due to lack of time. But looking at KW's history of drafting and history of developing players I have one suggestion:

Don't draft a pitcher in the first 5 rounds of the draft. I'll put a caveat in there in that the top 2 guys (Weaver or the other guy who's name I can't remember) are available with the Sox pick then I'd take them.


But other then that it's waste of time, money and effort to waste a high pick on any sort of pitcher, especially a high school pitcher. And don't waste a pick on a reliever in the first round. But that's another post for another day.

Anyway, KW and the Sox org. have done a rather lousy job of drafting and developing pitching. Due to injuries, bad luck, incompetence, or overhyping pitchers drafted by the Sox haven't worked out.

Except for one. Buehrle. And he was a 38th round pick. On July 31, 1997 this team was declared to being rebuilt around pitching. On years when the Sox had a ton of draft picks due to free agency they've drafted a ton of pitchers (didn't the Sox have 14 of their first 15 picks in 1999 go to pitching). And look where we're at today. THe Sox top pitching prospects are guys that KW has gotten intrades, not guys he's drafted. And even those ahve their question marks as KW has not developed them (unless starting Diaz on 3 days rest for only 2 starts is a good way to develop pitching).

So a team with limited resources like the Sox should play to their strengths. Draft hitters. Sure they're not all going to work out as some will prove to not handle a wood bat while others may get injured. But load up on these guys. It gives the team depth enough to do one of the few things KW is good at, trading for young pitching.

Now if he can only figure out how to develop the talent.



Bob

OEO Magglio
06-03-2004, 07:21 PM
Originally posted by gosox41
With the major league draft coming up soon I got to thinking about Professor Chaos (I got it right, Hal :D: ) and his drafting and player development ability.

Now I know this draft is rated as a weak one. And I certainly don't follow ameteur baseball due to lack of time. But looking at KW's history of drafting and history of developing players I have one suggestion:

Don't draft a pitcher in the first 5 rounds of the draft. I'll put a caveat in there in that the top 2 guys (Weaver or the other guy who's name I can't remember) are available with the Sox pick then I'd take them.


But other then that it's waste of time, money and effort to waste a high pick on any sort of pitcher, especially a high school pitcher. And don't waste a pick on a reliever in the first round. But that's another post for another day.

Anyway, KW and the Sox org. have done a rather lousy job of drafting and developing pitching. Due to injuries, bad luck, incompetence, or overhyping pitchers drafted by the Sox haven't worked out.

Except for one. Buehrle. And he was a 38th round pick. On July 31, 1997 this team was declared to being rebuilt around pitching. On years when the Sox had a ton of draft picks due to free agency they've drafted a ton of pitchers (didn't the Sox have 14 of their first 15 picks in 1999 go to pitching). And look where we're at today. THe Sox top pitching prospects are guys that KW has gotten intrades, not guys he's drafted. And even those ahve their question marks as KW has not developed them (unless starting Diaz on 3 days rest for only 2 starts is a good way to develop pitching).

So a team with limited resources like the Sox should play to their strengths. Draft hitters. Sure they're not all going to work out as some will prove to not handle a wood bat while others may get injured. But load up on these guys. It gives the team depth enough to do one of the few things KW is good at, trading for young pitching.

Now if he can only figure out how to develop the talent.



Bob
What's the point about bashing kenny in all these threads today? He's drafted honel and wing who have done pretty well before they both got injured this year. The sox need to replenish the farm with some pitching in this years draft and that's what they will do. Keep bashing kw about nothing, these threads are pointless.

MRKARNO
06-03-2004, 07:25 PM
Well I think the Sox should take the highest player on their board with the 18th pick irregardless of position (except outfield unless they think they've gotten a steal.)

But stop bashing KW right about.........now.

Where would we be without:

Marte
Olivo
Schoeneweis
Loaiza
Takatsu
Uribe
Harris??????

SEALgep
06-03-2004, 07:29 PM
Originally posted by MRKARNO
Well I think the Sox should take the highest player on their board with the 18th pick irregardless of position (except outfield unless they think they've gotten a steal.)

But stop bashing KW right about.........now.

Where would we be without:

Marte
Olivo
Schoeneweis
Loaiza
Takatsu
Uribe
Harris?????? I second that. What's the point of not drafting pitching? It brings value to the organization because pitching tends to have more trade value IMO. To say we're not going to draft pitchers in a weak position/ strong pitching draft is more illogical than what you're making KW out to be.

EDIT- and by you, I'm referring to gosox.

gosox41
06-03-2004, 09:15 PM
Originally posted by OEO Magglio
What's the point about bashing kenny in all these threads today? He's drafted honel and wing who have done pretty well before they both got injured this year. The sox need to replenish the farm with some pitching in this years draft and that's what they will do. Keep bashing kw about nothing, these threads are pointless.

I've said this before. I love analyzing baseball and the moves a team makes (looking at everything form salary to what a team was thinking when they made a trade, to minor league depth) to see how good/bad any particular move is.


Anyone can say after the fact that this or that was a good/bad move. But what fun is that? It's more fun to come up with an opinion about a particular roster move, look at it's options and go from there.

I'm making my opinion very public. KW is about to make a move I don't consider a sound baseball move. I've been accused here before of jumping on the anti-Koch band wagon and stuff like that when certain trades were made. The fact is I was against that trade from Day 1.

I'm against calling up Burke. I'm confident I'm right, that he is a lousy player but of course I hope he comes up here and hits like Ivan Rodriguez because it helps the team win. I don't think it's a very good move. I'm just vocalizing early so I don't have to be a bandwagon jumper later.


Bob

gosox41
06-03-2004, 09:20 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
I second that. What's the point of not drafting pitching? It brings value to the organization because pitching tends to have more trade value IMO. To say we're not going to draft pitchers in a weak position/ strong pitching draft is more illogical than what you're making KW out to be.

EDIT- and by you, I'm referring to gosox.


I'm still waiting for an early round pitching draft pick of this team to come through and live up to half the hype. Buehrle was picked in the 38 th round.


I do give KW credit for making good trades for pitching prospects but I'll be damned if he knows how to draft and/or develop them. Unless of course I'm missing something because I seem to have heard a lot about highly touted draft picks but for the 3rd year in a row see no pitcher even remotley likely to be an adequate #5 starter.

As for trading touted pitching for talent, the Sox did turn Wells and Fogg into Ritchie. I hope that's not what you meant. Marte trade was good, but he is a reliever. Ginter for Perez???? Way to early to tell either way but the Sox never gave Ginter a chance to start in the majors and he's doing well in his few starts for the Mets. But of course it's too early to tell.



Bob

SEALgep
06-03-2004, 09:26 PM
Originally posted by gosox41
I'm still waiting for an early round pitching draft pick of this team to come through and live up to half the hype. Buehrle was picked in the 38 th round.


I do give KW credit for making good trades for pitching prospects but I'll be damned if he knows how to draft and/or develop them. Unless of course I'm missing something because I seem to have heard a lot about highly touted draft picks but for the 3rd year in a row see no pitcher even remotley likely to be an adequate #5 starter.

As for trading touted pitching for talent, the Sox did turn Wells and Fogg into Ritchie. I hope that's not what you meant. Marte trade was good, but he is a reliever. Ginter for Perez???? Way to early to tell either way but the Sox never gave Ginter a chance to start in the majors and he's doing well in his few starts for the Mets. But of course it's too early to tell.



Bob Perez has helped us win on a few occasions. Marte, just a reliever? He was one of the best in the game last year, but that doesn't count I guess, huh? As far as his drafting, well he doesn't draft. The Sox have a scouting department that takes care of that. KW says he likes pitching because it strengthens the core of the system because everyone needs pitching, so you can use it or trade it for needs. That's about the extent of his input, so blaming him is pointless. As far as developing the prospects, well that's why we have coaches in the minor leagues. As much as we would want him to be responsible for every little thing, that's just not feasible or reasonable.

MRKARNO
06-03-2004, 09:29 PM
Originally posted by gosox41


I'm against calling up Burke. I'm confident I'm right, that he is a lousy player but of course I hope he comes up here and hits like Ivan Rodriguez because it helps the team win. I don't think it's a very good move. I'm just vocalizing early so I don't have to be a bandwagon jumper later.

It's not official yet. I have to admit that it would be pretty funny if Borchard gets the call and you wasted all of that energy bashing Kenny Williams.

Randar68
06-03-2004, 10:24 PM
Originally posted by MRKARNO
It's not official yet. I have to admit that it would be pretty funny if Borchard gets the call and you wasted all of that energy bashing Kenny Williams.

It's funny watching him run in circles making-up, manipulating, and predicting KW's moves as bad ones.

Based on his post, if the Sox draft a pitcher with any of their first 9 picks (first 5 rounds), KW is a failure, wrong, dumb, ignorant, black, has a deep voice, is Mussolini's son and is half Communist.

un-F***ing real. :gulp: :gulp: :gulp:

DrCrawdad
06-03-2004, 10:51 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
It's funny watching him run in circles making-up, manipulating, and predicting KW's moves as bad ones.

Based on his post, if the Sox draft a pitcher with any of their first 9 picks (first 5 rounds), KW is a failure, wrong, dumb, ignorant, black, has a deep voice, is Mussolini's son and is half Communist.

un-F***ing real. :gulp: :gulp: :gulp:

Last time I checked KW is black and does have a deep voice. Not sure about KW's political bent. Maybe someone will reveal KW's WSI member name from the Politically Incorrect page.

:)

RedPinStripes
06-03-2004, 10:51 PM
I'd rather draft a pitcher with great potential then a position player. Pitching is too tough to pick up and easy to trade away.

batmanZoSo
06-03-2004, 11:02 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
It's funny watching him run in circles making-up, manipulating, and predicting KW's moves as bad ones.

Based on his post, if the Sox draft a pitcher with any of their first 9 picks (first 5 rounds), KW is a failure, wrong, dumb, ignorant, black, has a deep voice, is Mussolini's son and is half Communist.

un-F***ing real. :gulp: :gulp: :gulp:

"I may be a liar, a pig, an idiot, a communist, but I do not have an excessively deep voice..that's just slander!"

gosox41
06-03-2004, 11:17 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
Perez has helped us win on a few occasions. Marte, just a reliever? He was one of the best in the game last year, but that doesn't count I guess, huh? As far as his drafting, well he doesn't draft. The Sox have a scouting department that takes care of that. KW says he likes pitching because it strengthens the core of the system because everyone needs pitching, so you can use it or trade it for needs. That's about the extent of his input, so blaming him is pointless. As far as developing the prospects, well that's why we have coaches in the minor leagues. As much as we would want him to be responsible for every little thing, that's just not feasible or reasonable.

KW was in charge of the minor league system when Schue was here, but Schu gets the blame for bad drafts. KW hires these scouts and all the other people under him to make draft day decisions. He has been in the 'war room' before on draft day and would think he is going to be in the future.


Bob

gosox41
06-03-2004, 11:21 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
It's funny watching him run in circles making-up, manipulating, and predicting KW's moves as bad ones.

Based on his post, if the Sox draft a pitcher with any of their first 9 picks (first 5 rounds), KW is a failure, wrong, dumb, ignorant, black, has a deep voice, is Mussolini's son and is half Communist.

un-F***ing real. :gulp: :gulp: :gulp:


Randar, at it again. You can stop your comments about how I feel about KW after 'dumb.' I never in anyway kncocked him for any other qualities whether they're true or clealy untrue.

Again, I am under the impression that Burke is the guy. I thought the Sox were just waiting to see if Magglio is put on the DL. If he is, the way I interepreted what I read is that if Magglio goes on the DL, then Burke is expected to be brought up.

If I'm wrong I'm wrong. But I've read it in multiple places and find it odd that multple sources that follow the team would be reporting the same thing.


Bob

Randar68
06-03-2004, 11:21 PM
Originally posted by gosox41
He has been in the 'war room' before on draft day and would think he is going to be in the future.

Not the last 2 years, and again, not this year.

strike 3.

gosox41
06-03-2004, 11:21 PM
Originally posted by RedPinStripes
I'd rather draft a pitcher with great potential then a position player. Pitching is too tough to pick up and easy to trade away.

That I agree with. I've just been disappointed by the lack of success the Sox have had over the last 7 years by drafting pitchers with high picks only to see them flop for whatever reason.



Bob

pearso66
06-03-2004, 11:24 PM
That I agree with. I've just been disappointed by the lack of success the Sox have had over the last 7 years by drafting pitchers with high picks only to see them flop for whatever reason.

So wait, now you agree with drafting pitching early, but before you were against it? which side are you on?

Randar68
06-03-2004, 11:25 PM
Originally posted by gosox41
[BAgain, I am under the impression that Burke is the guy.[/B]

Your original post in this thread is about the draft. Doesn't even mentiono Burke. It's unreal. You make 35 statements about random unrealistic KW-hate issues you hahve, and then harp on 1 like the other 34 didn't happen.

there are a lot of valid reasons to harp on KW. Most have been beaten to a bloody pulp, but here you are, off trying to invent them.

gosox41
06-03-2004, 11:27 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
Not the last 2 years, and again, not this year.

strike 3.

First, how do you know that?

Second, was that not KW calling Beane on draft day in 2002 inquiring about Blanton's availability. If you want to get technical, it is possible that KW was on a cell somewhere. But it sounds like he had constant contact with whoeve was running the draft..

Third, maybe KW should figure out why the organization has done such a poor job drafting and developing young pitchers over the last few years.

I give KW credit for making trades for good pitching (ie Marte, Diaz, Pacheco to name a few)

gosox41
06-03-2004, 11:30 PM
Originally posted by pearso66
So wait, now you agree with drafting pitching early, but before you were against it? which side are you on?

Let me clarify. I see the need to draft pitchng early. But I also recognize the failure of the Sox to have any success at it. They should stick to what works for them (drafting hitters) or reexamine their system and why they have so many problems developing minor league pitching.

On the flip side of my KW bashing, I do give him credit for drafting a lot of good hitters like Borchard, Reed, Anderson, and Sweeney. This is what KW does well. I would prefer if he could draft better at pitching, but since he can't I honestly don't feel he should draft a pitcher in the first 5 rounds unless there's a can't miss kid.


Bob

MRKARNO
06-03-2004, 11:32 PM
Originally posted by gosox41
Let me clarify. I see the need to draft pitchng early. But I also recognize the failure of the Sox to have any success at it. They should stick to what works for them (drafting hitters) or reexamine their system and why they have so many problems developing minor league pitching.

You can't just ignore half of the prospects because of some unfortunate injuries and some trades we've made in order to get ML talent so that we could "go for it."

Tell me exactly, who has KW drafted and completely failed with early in the draft?

gosox41
06-03-2004, 11:58 PM
Originally posted by MRKARNO
You can't just ignore half of the prospects because of some unfortunate injuries and some trades we've made in order to get ML talent so that we could "go for it."

Tell me exactly, who has KW drafted and completely failed with early in the draft?

I have to go back over the lists of players that KW has drafted, though according to Randar, KW doesn't 'draft' and that his scouts do it. He hasn't even been in the war room the last 2 years according to him.

Don't know if it's true, but KW is GM and has some say. Especially when it's his voice going over the conference call stating who the Sox select. He also was in charge of the minor leagues under Schu in the late '90's. He had some say there to.

But the one pick that really stands out as not making sense is the selection of Ring over Blanton. A middle reliever with a first round pick. Sure it got us Alomar, but I think the Sox and Mets could have found another combo of players to get that deal down if Ring weren't around.

As for injuries, I certainly don't blame KW for that. But like I said for whatever reason the Sox don't do well with drafting pitchers with high draft picks. Maybe it's conditioning, maybe it's overuse, maybe it's bad luck. But there have been a lot of arms drafted by this organization over the last 7 years that have not lived up to their hype. It's not all KW's fault, but he is the guy in charge and should work on fixing the problem.

Let me look into some more names as it's late. But we've heard a lot of hype about guys like Rauch, Wright, Strumm, and West to name a few.


Bob

Randar68
06-04-2004, 10:28 AM
Originally posted by gosox41
I have to go back over the lists of players that KW has drafted, though according to Randar, KW doesn't 'draft' and that his scouts do it. He hasn't even been in the war room the last 2 years according to him.

Don't know if it's true, but KW is GM and has some say. Especially when it's his voice going over the conference call stating who the Sox select. He also was in charge of the minor leagues under Schu in the late '90's. He had some say there to.

But the one pick that really stands out as not making sense is the selection of Ring over Blanton. A middle reliever with a first round pick. Sure it got us Alomar, but I think the Sox and Mets could have found another combo of players to get that deal down if Ring weren't around.

As for injuries, I certainly don't blame KW for that. But like I said for whatever reason the Sox don't do well with drafting pitchers with high draft picks. Maybe it's conditioning, maybe it's overuse, maybe it's bad luck. But there have been a lot of arms drafted by this organization over the last 7 years that have not lived up to their hype. It's not all KW's fault, but he is the guy in charge and should work on fixing the problem.

Let me look into some more names as it's late. But we've heard a lot of hype about guys like Rauch, Wright, Strumm, and West to name a few.


Bob


This has been gone over time and again: Schueler, until his last 2 years or so (maybe it was 3, IIRC) ran the draft himself, all 50 rounds. He would regularly ignore the advice of his staff to select players he liked, many times multiple rounds before they should have been selected.

pearso66
06-04-2004, 10:45 AM
Not to mention Schueler drafted his daughter in a round that was higher than the one that Buehrle was taken in, IIRC. Either Buehrle or it was some other solid MLB player.