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WWIII
06-03-2004, 04:00 PM
...what did everyone expect? I am sick of reading the "Koch sucks" and "Get rid of Koch" threads. I liked Koch when he was on Toronto. I thought at that time I would like to see him in a Sox uniform. And I was thrilled when we got him. But aside from 30+ saves in his first four years, his numbers were never spectacular for a relief pitcher. He blew anywhere from 4-8 saves per year (including 6 BS the year he won Relief Man of the Year), his ERA was only under 3.00 one of those years (and not the year he won Relief Man of the Year), his OBA was over .300 every year, and his WHIP was never lower than 1.22. I read a quote somewhere that the year he won his award, he pitched 90+ innings and only about 12 of those were 1-2-3 innings.

Granted, last year, velocity was down and he did not look all that great. But guys do have bad years, and not having your manager's or your fans' confidence doesn't help. Now his velocity is increasing again, and he hasn't done all that bad this year, but as soon as he makes a mistake, people are all over him. He only has 2 blown saves thus far people. What Gagne has done is unmatched, but it seems like that is what Sox fans expect of their closer. Most closers will make a mistake during the season. But we have to keep supporting them.

There, I've ranted. All comments are appreciated.

jabrch
06-03-2004, 04:02 PM
Originally posted by WWIII
There, I've ranted. All comments are appreciated.

Enjoy - they will come fast and furious.

DaveIsHere
06-03-2004, 04:06 PM
Originally posted by WWIII
...what did everyone expect? I am sick of reading the "Koch sucks" and "Get rid of Koch" threads. I liked Koch when he was on Toronto. I thought at that time I would like to see him in a Sox uniform. And I was thrilled when we got him. But aside from 30+ saves in his first four years, his numbers were never spectacular for a relief pitcher. He blew anywhere from 4-8 saves per year (including 6 BS the year he won Relief Man of the Year), his ERA was only under 3.00 one of those years (and not the year he won Relief Man of the Year), his OBA was over .300 every year, and his WHIP was never lower than 1.22. I read a quote somewhere that the year he won his award, he pitched 90+ innings and only about 12 of those were 1-2-3 innings.

Granted, last year, velocity was down and he did not look all that great. But guys do have bad years, and not having your manager's or your fans' confidence doesn't help. Now his velocity is increasing again, and he hasn't done all that bad this year, but as soon as he makes a mistake, people are all over him. He only has 2 blown saves thus far people. What Gagne has done is unmatched, but it seems like that is what Sox fans expect of their closer. Most closers will make a mistake during the season. But we have to keep supporting them.

There, I've ranted. All comments are appreciated.

:ozzie

"Beely is my closer"


I agree, lay off and let him do his job

JRIG
06-03-2004, 04:08 PM
I, and some others, thought it was a terrible trade the day it happened.

It got worse when KW handed Koch an extension before he even threw one pitch for the Sox.

Koch was a average pitcher with facial hair and a straight as an arrow 99 MPH fastball. He always had control problems. His value was increased by racking up lofty "save" totals. I'm not sure what people expected. He allowed more hits than Keith Fouke, walked more batters, and struck out fewer hitters. That's the definition of player who should do worse than the guy who preceeded him.

hold2dibber
06-03-2004, 04:09 PM
The reaction to the trade was a mixed bag on this board. A lot of people had lost faith in Foulke and that Koch was more of a "classic closer" that would flourish in Chicago. A lot of others point to the stats indicated in the first post (indicating that he never had been as good as Foulke and was overrated).

I myself was a huge Foulke fan and was sad to see him go. I thought Koch was okay, but nowhere near the pitcher Foulke was. I recognized that Koch was going to give Sox fans heart attacks based upon his high WHIP, but I thought he would at least be decent and because he would be under contract for 2 years (whereas Foulke only had one left) I was not outraged by the trade.

fuzzy_patters
06-03-2004, 04:10 PM
Originally posted by WWIII
...what did everyone expect? I am sick of reading the "Koch sucks" and "Get rid of Koch" threads. I liked Koch when he was on Toronto. I thought at that time I would like to see him in a Sox uniform. And I was thrilled when we got him. But aside from 30+ saves in his first four years, his numbers were never spectacular for a relief pitcher. He blew anywhere from 4-8 saves per year (including 6 BS the year he won Relief Man of the Year), his ERA was only under 3.00 one of those years (and not the year he won Relief Man of the Year), his OBA was over .300 every year, and his WHIP was never lower than 1.22. I read a quote somewhere that the year he won his award, he pitched 90+ innings and only about 12 of those were 1-2-3 innings.

Granted, last year, velocity was down and he did not look all that great. But guys do have bad years, and not having your manager's or your fans' confidence doesn't help. Now his velocity is increasing again, and he hasn't done all that bad this year, but as soon as he makes a mistake, people are all over him. He only has 2 blown saves thus far people. What Gagne has done is unmatched, but it seems like that is what Sox fans expect of their closer. Most closers will make a mistake during the season. But we have to keep supporting them.

There, I've ranted. All comments are appreciated.

Billy Koch reminds me of Albert Belle. Belle struggled in his first season with the Sox, and a lot of our fans turned against him. In his second season he played much better, but people had already turned against him and were still booing him when he came to bat. Hopefully, some of our fans will wake up and realize that Billy has not pitched that poorly this year before they make total asses of themselves like they did in 1998.

poorme
06-03-2004, 04:13 PM
What a joke. Albert Belle had perhaps the greatest single season ever by a White Sox player. Koch is a bum with an ERA approaching 5.00.

fuzzy_patters
06-03-2004, 04:17 PM
Originally posted by poorme
What a joke. Albert Belle had perhaps the greatest single season ever by a White Sox player. Koch is a bum with an ERA approaching 5.00.

No he didn't. Belle had perhaps the greatest single HALF season. During most of the first part of the season, Belle was hitting around .280 and people were booing him. He wasn't great, but he wasn't terrible either.

The point is that Billy was probably the worst closer in the AL last year. However, he has only blown 2 saves this year. He hasn't been great, but he has improved over last year. This seems to be lost on people like yourself.

By they way, how many times did you boo Belle in May/June 1998?

JRIG
06-03-2004, 04:18 PM
Originally posted by poorme
What a joke. Albert Belle had perhaps the greatest single season ever by a White Sox player. Koch is a bum with an ERA approaching 5.00.

Even that 1998 season can't touch Frank's best years.

Looking back at the numbers Belle really was (relatively) terrible in 1997. .274/.332/.491 with 105 Ks and only 53 BBs.

Dadawg_77
06-03-2004, 04:22 PM
My words.


I admitt I hate Kenny Williams, and I hate this trade but I don't hate the trade because I hate Kenny. Rather I hate Kenny more because of he made the trade. Maybe Koch has the correct attitude but I would rather have the better player. There is a major difference between having the correct attitude and have talent. It is best when you have both like Black Jack who was one of the best pitchers in the league during his prime. While I don't think Billy Koch is one of the best closers in the game right now. To me the numbers, even if you factor in the AL West vs the AL Central, Foulke is a better pitcher then Billy Koch is. And IMHOP will be.

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=15890&s=&perpage=15&pagenumber=1&display=show

fuzzy_patters
06-03-2004, 04:23 PM
Originally posted by JRIG
Even that 1998 season can't touch Frank's best years.

Looking back at the numbers Belle really was (relatively) terrible in 1997. .274/.332/.491 with 105 Ks and only 53 BBs.

This is exactly my point. After posting his worst season, Belle returned to his old form the following year. Koch seems to be returning to his old form, also. He will never be a great closer, but he gets the job done most of the time.

Dadawg_77
06-03-2004, 04:29 PM
The Infamous thread, ESPN Rumor Central.

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=15809&perpage=15&display=show&pagenumber=3

Bobby Thigpen
06-03-2004, 04:31 PM
However, he has only blown 2 saves this year.

OUT OF 9 CHANCES. A conversion rate of only about 75% is terrible. Besides the 2 blown saves he has pitched terribly in nearly every other game he has pitched in. The guy is terrible, pathetic, a mental midget, and quite simply the worst trade KW has ever done (Ritchie included). I hope they shoot Billy Blows Koch into outer space. He is horribly terrible. I want to wretch every time he enters a game. Throw on top of that he makes 6 million dollars for sucking and I want to :chunks

I can not for the life of me why anyone who likes White Sox baseball would stick up for the human blown game that is Billy Koch. :angry: :angry: :angry:

steff
06-03-2004, 04:37 PM
Originally posted by fuzzy_patters
By they way, how many times did you boo Belle in May/June 1998?



I did not boo once. :D:

patbooyah
06-03-2004, 04:39 PM
having billy koch on this team is like having fecal worms.

you are having a fabulous wednesday night, and all of a sudden you realize- its time. the doors will open and out will come the monstrosity. you hope that "the problem" is gone, but you are apprehensive at best. sometimes you can't immediately see "the problem," and you believe it is a thing of the past. unfortunately, "the problem" is still hampering what is- best case- a piece of ****.

soxtalker
06-03-2004, 04:41 PM
I believe that I was against the trade from the beginning also. What I do recall clearly is the Oakland fans' reaction and their comments about what to expect with Koch. What we have seen this year seems to be a pretty accurate reflection of those predictions. At the time the trade was made, I wasn't happy with that, and I'm not terribly thrilled with it now. However, it probably isn't fair to complain. He's living up to expectations. They're actually pretty good, though we'll be on the edge of our seats each time he's asked to protect a one-run lead.

hold2dibber
06-03-2004, 04:52 PM
Originally posted by fuzzy_patters
Billy Koch reminds me of Albert Belle. Belle struggled in his first season with the Sox, and a lot of our fans turned against him. In his second season he played much better, but people had already turned against him and were still booing him when he came to bat. Hopefully, some of our fans will wake up and realize that Billy has not pitched that poorly this year before they make total asses of themselves like they did in 1998.

What color is the sky in your world?

Koch hasn't pitched that poorly? He has blown nearly 1/4 of his save opportunities and is lucky as hell he hasn't blown more. He can close a game with a 3 run lead, but handing him a 1 run lead is a disaster waiting to happen. With that said, he has pitched better than he pitched last year. But that's not saying much.

maurice
06-03-2004, 05:04 PM
I was always a Foulke fan and Koch skeptic. My reaction to the trade (from various threads):

Koch may perform better than Foulke from here on out (and I certainly hope he does), but Foulke has outperformed him in the past, according to any relevant measure. Also, based on past performance, Koch is more likely to post a 4.00+ ERA than Foulke, who has a more consistent track record.

The available data indicate that Foulke should be at least marginally better than Koch. IMHO, there is a good chance that Koch will be almost a good as Foulke (which is fine), a small chance that Koch will be better than Foulke (even better), and a small chance that Koch will be significantly worse than Foulke ( :(: ).

Hopefully, Koch will perfom as well as Foulke has performed for the White Sox. His history shows that it's unlikely that Koch will do better than Foulke has done, though there is a good chance (perhaps a probability) that he will do at least marginally worse.

Several posters agreed with me.

pudge
06-03-2004, 05:30 PM
Originally posted by fuzzy_patters
This is exactly my point. After posting his worst season, Belle returned to his old form the following year. Koch seems to be returning to his old form, also. He will never be a great closer, but he gets the job done most of the time.

This doesn't really wash, because unless Billy starts throwing 99 mph again, he will never be returning to his old form. That's why so many people are upset... Foulke was a finesse pitcher, which is what made him so great, but our organization once again went for pizazz over proof in numbers. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. I was worried the instant we made that trade, but I'll admit I never thought Koch would be this bad.

CanOfCorn
06-03-2004, 05:45 PM
I thought it was a bad trade. I knew about his straight fastball, and he didn't offer anything that Foulke couldn't do, as far as efficiency was concerned.

My dad also said that he'll get rocked because the AL saw him a ton of times in Oakland.

I thought Manuel misused Foulke. He struggled early that year, and Manuel lost faith in him for the rest of the season. The thing with Foulke is, he'll have these ruts that last for a week or two when he throws his change at the wrong time. It happened early in the season, and we were subjected to a closer-by-committee because Manuel thought for some reason that Osuna could close as effectively as Foulke.

Thanks to Manuel, Foulke's value was perceived as low by the organization, media and a lot of fans.



And for the record, I never booed Albert Belle. I don't see the point in booing your own guys before they do anything wrong, and I never went to a game where he did something horrible.

mdep524
06-03-2004, 05:54 PM
Originally posted by Bobby Thigpen
OUT OF 9 CHANCES. A conversion rate of only about 75% is terrible. Besides the 2 blown saves he has pitched terribly in nearly every other game he has pitched in. The guy is terrible, pathetic, a mental midget, and quite simply the worst trade KW has ever done (Ritchie included). I hope they shoot Billy Blows Koch into outer space. He is horribly terrible. I want to wretch every time he enters a game. Throw on top of that he makes 6 million dollars for sucking and I want to :chunks

I can not for the life of me why anyone who likes White Sox baseball would stick up for the human blown game that is Billy Koch. :angry: :angry: :angry:

You and me both, man. Why is this so hard for other people to see?

doublem23
06-03-2004, 06:17 PM
I was pretty pissed when it went down. I liked Foulke and while I wouldn't have minded seeing him go, I thought we really got scammed.

And yeah, Koch has been horrible this year. 7 saves in 9 chances is good for a set up man over a year, not for your closer in June.

BigEdWalsh
06-03-2004, 06:31 PM
1. I was down on Foulke but hadn't given up on him. I felt he could regain his old form. I wasn't happy for the swap which brought Koch. I never thought Koch was that great. But I didn't think he was going to be as bad as he has been. I was very thankful for the development of Marte which alleviated some of the pain in relying on Koch.
2. To me Albert Belle was much like Dennis Rodman in that I HATED him before he came here. When Belle joined the Sox, I thought well, like him or not he's ours now. I never booed him as long as he was a member of the Sox. He certainly didn't become a favorite but he put up pretty good numbers. I didn't shed any tears when he left though due to the fact that I didn't like him to begin with.
3. I don't hate Billy Koch. I just think he's lousy. It sounds goofy but I just don't boo our own. I hope for the best every time Koch takes the mound. But more often than not it seems I'm let down or he runs you through an emotional ringer even when he does get the job done. It's never an easy 1-2-3.

A. Cavatica
06-03-2004, 08:00 PM
I thought it was a good trade, not on talent, but because we were swapping a closer we had locked up for one year with someone we would have for two years. Koch was coming off the Rolaids award and still had the 100 mph fastball. Foulke had melted down in the 2000 playoffs.

nasox
06-03-2004, 10:13 PM
Originally posted by patbooyah
having billy koch on this team is like having fecal worms.

you are having a fabulous wednesday night, and all of a sudden you realize- its time. the doors will open and out will come the monstrosity. you hope that "the problem" is gone, but you are apprehensive at best. sometimes you can't immediately see "the problem," and you believe it is a thing of the past. unfortunately, "the problem" is still hampering what is- best case- a piece of ****.

ROFLMAO!!! :D:

StepsInSC
06-04-2004, 12:45 AM
I will admit I thought Koch would be okay.

I was more upset with how Manual handled Foulke. I thought they gave up on him way too soon.

So now by that same token I don't want to see the same thing happen to Koch. So as a result I sympathize with the whole situation. Weird.

Jamieboy
06-04-2004, 01:14 AM
okay ... i'm gettng a little tired of this. The number 1 reason for the trade is obvious. Sox weren't going to able to resign Foulke, guess what, neither was Oakland able to. Second reason, Foulke is not a big game pitcher, I don't trust him down a big game at all, zero. Now, I'll admit I still hold a grudge against Foulke for giving up the 2run homer in the top of the 10th in game 1 of the playoffs in 2000, but still, his last year on the sox, how many big games did he blow. Momentum games that soured the entire team when they lost. There were too many games versus first place seattle and New York that Foulke blew, I don't know what it is, but when its a little tense, and there's something on the line, Foulke has a tendency to give it up. I believe it was game 4, might have been 3, but I think 4 last year when A's were facing BoSox in Boston, A's had lead in the 8th I think, they bring out Foulke to try to close it out early, nope .. backfired, Red Sox won. Now, I'll be the first to tell you that Foulke is one of the best relievers in the game. He however is not the best closer. I liked it much more when Foulke came in the 7th n 8th, and whomever closed it out in the 9th. Now we got somebody for Foulke before we got nothing, Koch isn't go to nail 50 out of 51 saves .. but the guy can save 75% plus of his saves. Good enough for me. He blows any games in October tho, and I'll give you a different opinion.

jeremyb1
06-04-2004, 01:35 AM
First of all I find it hilarious that people are using saves and conversion rate to argue Koch is doing a decent job. That type of logic is what led us to end up with Koch putting us in this disasterous situation in the first place.

As far as peoples' initial reactions to the trade, as the record shows quite a few of us opposed the deal. Personally, I'm dissapointed in myself that I wasn't more critical of Koch but I clearly stated that I felt Foulke was the better pitcher and the deal was a mistake. Hopefully everyone has learned something about the worthlessness of the save statistic, the danger of placing too much emphasis on velocity (especially since it can come and go it appears), and that even ERA can be misleading at times.

Dadawg_77
06-04-2004, 09:05 AM
Originally posted by Jamieboy
He blows any games in October tho, and I'll give you a different opinion.

I am sure West knows a few stories about Oakland fans and Koch blowing game fives.

Dan H
06-04-2004, 09:24 AM
Right now the Keith Foulke and the trade are not the issue. The issue is whether Koch should be the closer right now. I say he shoudn't. There is nothing in his perfornances that demonstrate that he should be a closer on a contending team. The bullpen was supposed to be the Sox strength. It doesn't look like it now.

jshanahanjr
06-04-2004, 09:50 AM
Koch is MR. Excitement. I love him, but he makes me sweat. He looks much better this year than last, and is a stand up guy. Go Billy!

Frater Perdurabo
06-04-2004, 10:07 AM
I have no post to prove it (I was not a WSI member at the time), but I distinctly remember the trade being made and being against it.

A student of mine, who knew I was a Sox fan, asked me the day after the deal if I was happy that the Sox got the Rolaids Relief Man. I told him that the Sox were better off with Keith Foulke. IMHO the Sox would have won the division last year if they still had Foulke.

FarWestChicago
06-04-2004, 12:06 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
I am sure West knows a few stories about Oakland fans and Koch blowing game fives. All the Oakland fans I know talk about Foulke blowing the playoffs for them. They blamed me. But, I had warned them about Foulke and pressure games. :cool:

Frater Perdurabo
06-04-2004, 01:00 PM
Originally posted by FarWestChicago
All the Oakland fans I know talk about Foulke blowing the playoffs for them. They blamed me. But, I had warned them about Foulke and pressure games. :cool:

I'd rather have a closer who could have gotten the Sox to the playoffs in 2003, like Foulke. Koch's blown saves likely were a major part of the Sox failing to make the playoffs last year, along with a certain amount of tinkering.... :cool:

FarWestChicago
06-04-2004, 01:04 PM
Originally posted by Frater Perdurabo
I'd rather have a closer who could have gotten the Sox to the playoffs in 2003, like Foulke. Koch's blown saves likely were a major part of the Sox failing to make the playoffs last year, along with a certain amount of tinkering.... :cool: Hey, he asked me about Oakland fans. I just told him what what they said. And I had warned them. :smile:

Dadawg_77
06-04-2004, 01:50 PM
Originally posted by FarWestChicago
All the Oakland fans I know talk about Foulke blowing the playoffs for them. They blamed me. But, I had warned them about Foulke and pressure games. :cool:

None of them talked about Koch blowing it against the Twins in game five?

FarWestChicago
06-04-2004, 03:18 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
None of them talked about Koch blowing it against the Twins in game five? A's fans talk about two things. They last time they choked in the playoffs and 1989. They don't go back 2-3-4 years looking for things to whine about like many people here do. :smile:

Whitesox029
06-04-2004, 07:02 PM
Originally posted by WWIII
...what did everyone expect? I am sick of reading the "Koch sucks" and "Get rid of Koch" threads.........
I don't want to say I expected it fully, but I didn't like it. I didn't know him all that well at the time, and as you can see by my name on this website, I was definitely a Keith Foulke fan (I have switched over to Whitesox014 more recently). Keith was blowing saves late in 2002 and everyone thought he was a flash in the pan whom the AL hitters had figured out. He proved otherwise, as I figured he would whether it would be with the Sox or someone else. Personally I thought we should have given him another chance. For me it wasn't so much about Koch as it was about Keith.