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Win1ForMe
06-03-2004, 01:09 PM
I was doing some perusing using ESPN Insider and found some info on Garcia:

Just as Garcia's arrival with Carlos Guillen in the Randy Johnson trade with Houston in 1998 provided a necessary infusion of talent in the Mariners' last down cycle, so could his departure replenish their talent base now.

But those convinced it's a slam dunk that the Mariners can parlay Garcia, a pending free agent, into a treasure trove of young prospects on the verge of stardom might have a rude awakening. In recent days, I canvassed several general managers on Garcia's trade value, promising anonymity in exchange for frank assessments.

The consensus of the group, which included GMs from both leagues, many of whom have had identical decisions in recent years, is that it is exceedingly difficult to get fair market value for a "rent-a-player," regardless of talent level.

"You can't discount the higher-echelon teams looking for a difference-maker the Red Sox, Yankees, probably the Dodgers, who have a new owner and are off to a better start. But a lot of the higher-echelon teams are not prospect rich, because they've traded prospects away in these kinds of trades, and some haven't been able to restock. The Yankees and Red Sox are not full of quality prospects."

One GM predicted the White Sox as the likeliest trade partner, suggesting young pitcher Jon Rauch and/or outfielders Aaron Rowand and Joe Borchard, a former Stanford quarterback, as possible returns. He also mentioned the Phillies and small-market teams Twins and Reds as darkhorses if they get pennant fever.

LINK (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/mariners/2001946050_stone03.html)

Win1ForMe
06-03-2004, 01:11 PM
BTW, if AAAron Rowand and John Rauch are the guys we move for Garcia then the M's GM should be fired. On the spot.

doublem23
06-03-2004, 01:13 PM
Originally posted by Win1ForMe
BTW, if AAAron Rowand and John Rauch are the guys we move for Garcia then the M's GM should be fired. On the spot.

http://bartshim.com/images/carl-I.gif
Shuuuuuuuuuuuuuuut uuuuuuuuuuuuuuup....

:)

SOXintheBURGH
06-03-2004, 01:18 PM
:) LOL!!!!


Rowand and Rauch for Garcia, eh.....

Would that automatically catapult KW into the Billy Beane/Theo Epstein stratosphere?

jabrch
06-03-2004, 01:21 PM
Originally posted by SOXintheBURGH
:) LOL!!!!


Rowand and Rauch for Garcia, eh.....

Would that automatically catapult KW into the Billy Beane/Theo Epstein stratosphere?

Nothing would ever make KW as smart as Beane. Just ask Billy - he will tell you.

And Theo Ooopstein? What's he ever done other than screw up the A-Rod deal? I can't think of too many guys he signed who significantly outperformed expectations - David Ortiz?

THE_HOOTER
06-03-2004, 01:24 PM
Is Garcia a FA after this year?

If so, they shouldnt have to give up a ton to get him.

Rowand has little value, and I am sure the Sox would love to dump Rauch.

If they want Rauch and Borchard, I say no.

If we have to watch Borchard become a really good player after being so patient with him, it would be tough to swallow.

I only include Reed, Borchard, or Sweeney in deals that will get us longer term talent in return.

Garcia does not make us front runners-only more competitive.

It sounds to me like the Sox are the only ones willing to deal a upper tier prospect for Garcia.

I would offer Rauch for him---

If they want ROwand, take him.

Fungo
06-03-2004, 01:25 PM
Originally posted by Win1ForMe
BTW, if AAAron Rowand and John Rauch are the guys we move for Garcia then the M's GM should be fired. On the spot.
No he shouldn't. Anytime you have the chance to get your hands on AAAron Rowand, you shouldn't walk at the opportunity, you should run.

bobj4400
06-03-2004, 01:28 PM
If KW could pull off Rauch/AAAron for Garcia, we should invite Bavasi (M's GM?) to our division title party. That guy would have to be brain dead to make that trade.

bobj4400
06-03-2004, 01:28 PM
Originally posted by Fungo
No he shouldn't. Anytime you have the chance to get your hands on AAAron Rowand, you shouldn't walk at the opportunity, you should run.

the opposite direction...

samram
06-03-2004, 01:30 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
Nothing would ever make KW as smart as Beane. Just ask Billy - he will tell you.

And Theo Ooopstein? What's he ever done other than screw up the A-Rod deal? I can't think of too many guys he signed who significantly outperformed expectations - David Ortiz?

I think Theo also got Bill Mueller, Kevin Millar, Todd Walker, Keith Foulke, and Curt Schilling ( I know the last two were very good before they got there). He's been pretty solid for his first two years.

Brian26
06-03-2004, 01:31 PM
Originally posted by Win1ForMe
BTW, if AAAron Rowand and John Rauch are the guys we move for Garcia then the M's GM should be fired. On the spot.

Sshhh!

He might be reading this :smile:

SEALgep
06-03-2004, 01:33 PM
Originally posted by samram
I think Theo also got Bill Mueller, Kevin Millar, Todd Walker, Keith Foulke, and Curt Schilling ( I know the last two were very good before they got there). He's been pretty solid for his first two years. Ya, but they are about to do some major revamping after this season. With the payroll he has it would be hard to screw that up, but I'll reserve judgment on him until he completes this next offseason.

SEALgep
06-03-2004, 01:36 PM
Originally posted by SOXintheBURGH
:) LOL!!!!


Rowand and Rauch for Garcia, eh.....

Would that automatically catapult KW into the Billy Beane/Theo Epstein stratosphere? :rowand


"Kenny, you'd have to be dumb not to make that move."

DaveIsHere
06-03-2004, 01:38 PM
Do they know that aaron takes bad routes!!!!!!!! :o:

jabrch
06-03-2004, 01:39 PM
Originally posted by samram
I think Theo also got Bill Mueller, Kevin Millar, Todd Walker, Keith Foulke, and Curt Schilling ( I know the last two were very good before they got there). He's been pretty solid for his first two years.

I'd take KWs performance over that any day. Schilling and Foulke were guys he bought based on sheer spending power. He's been ok - but with that budget, a lot of GMs could win 93-95 games. Imagine what KW could do with 150mm? This team would look totally different.

pudge
06-03-2004, 01:40 PM
Remember, it's rent-a-player... Rowand could be the M's CF'er of the future (snicker) and Rauch could be a starter in their rotation (snicker again)... Even though I'm snickering, I don't think this is as lopsided as it seems... We'd likely lose Garcia at years end ala Colon.

samram
06-03-2004, 01:41 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
Ya, but they are about to do some major revamping after this season. With the payroll he has it would be hard to screw that up, but I'll reserve judgment on him until he completes this next offseason.

I agree with you that his payroll gives him flexibility, but the "Millers" and Walker were not really big money signings. They even got Gabe Kapler to be productive here and there. You are right that it will be a difficult off-season especially if Nomar leaves. Their farm system is pretty bad.

Also, Rowand and Rauch can't be what Seattle is looking for- you need speedy outfielders in that park, unless they have a prospect who can take over for Winn, and Rowand can play left or whatever. Maybe they think Rauch is good just because he is tall and will be like Randy Johnson. :D: Although, the one scout who said rent-a-players don't get teams much in trade anymore is correct. In order to get solid prospects, the team trading the free agent to be now has to pick up a significant portion, if not all, of the remaining salary.

Win1ForMe
06-03-2004, 01:55 PM
Originally posted by pudge
Remember, it's rent-a-player... Rowand could be the M's CF'er of the future (snicker) and Rauch could be a starter in their rotation (snicker again)... Even though I'm snickering, I don't think this is as lopsided as it seems... We'd likely lose Garcia at years end ala Colon.

It could just be me, but I think with Maggs probably leaving, and Ozzie's connection to Garcia, the Sox would probably try to resign him.

Dadawg_77
06-03-2004, 01:57 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
I'd take KWs performance over that any day. Schilling and Foulke were guys he bought based on sheer spending power. He's been ok - but with that budget, a lot of GMs could win 93-95 games. Imagine what KW could do with 150mm? This team would look totally different.

The irrational exuberance the friend of Kenny display is quite funny. The only they seem to know how to make Kenny look good is to bash everyone else.

wdelaney72
06-03-2004, 01:57 PM
But the ball rifles off of AAAron's bat.

SEALgep
06-03-2004, 02:00 PM
Originally posted by pudge
Remember, it's rent-a-player... Rowand could be the M's CF'er of the future (snicker) and Rauch could be a starter in their rotation (snicker again)... Even though I'm snickering, I don't think this is as lopsided as it seems... We'd likely lose Garcia at years end ala Colon. I think we have a good chance of signing Garcia, even if we don't get him as a rent a player this season.

Jjav829
06-03-2004, 02:01 PM
If we can acquire Freddy Garcia for Aaron Rowand and Jon Rauch KW is on track to be Executive of the year. Though with Bavasi at the helm for Seattle, it's possible.

Dadawg_77
06-03-2004, 02:03 PM
Read the trade listed, to me it reads Rowand, Rauch and Borchard for Garica, to high of a price for Freddy.

samram
06-03-2004, 02:05 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
The irrational exuberance the friend of Kenny display if quite funny. The only they seem to know how to make Kenny look good is to bash everyone else.

Yeah, I didn't even mention KW in that post he replied to, just that Theo had done a good job. Plus, he only got Schilling and Foulke this year. Last year, the main guys he brought in were pretty inexpensive and all they did was score 1000 runs. I'm sure KW would do great with a huge payroll, but that doesn't mean that Theo didn't do well because he had one.

soxtalker
06-03-2004, 02:20 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
Read the trade listed, to me it reads Rowand, Rauch and Borchard for Garica, to high of a price for Freddy.

That's the way I read it. And I think that it is paying too much to rent Garcia. If it was Rowand and Rauch, that's fine, but probably not enough for Seattle. So, I wonder what additional prospect we might be willing to part with.

CanOfCorn
06-03-2004, 02:30 PM
Anybody else praying that Freddy Garcia isn't Sidney Ponson v. 2.0?

Ponson isn't worth Rowand at this point.

pudge
06-03-2004, 02:30 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
I think we have a good chance of signing Garcia, even if we don't get him as a rent a player this season.

There was big news in Seattle when Garcia made comments about how he'd love to play in New York... so I wouldn't count on anything... remember, Robbie Alomar and Uggie Urbina were "friends" of Ozzie too...

Of course, if we lose Maggs, we better plan on making some big signings next season.

doublem23
06-03-2004, 02:31 PM
Ah yes, but Garcia has a track record of success and isn't a lard ass.

I'll give KW credit for not signing Ponson.

Dadawg_77
06-03-2004, 03:37 PM
Originally posted by doublem23
Ah yes, but Garcia has a track record of success and isn't a lard ass.

I'll give KW credit for not signing Ponson.

I wonder if he was the player Frank exercising his option prevented Kenny from getting. Thank God, Frank prevented Kenny from ****ing that up.

lowesox
06-03-2004, 04:00 PM
Originally posted by doublem23
http://bartshim.com/images/carl-I.gif
Shuuuuuuuuuuuuuuut uuuuuuuuuuuuuuup....

:)

Best. Post. Ever.

Tekijawa
06-03-2004, 04:30 PM
ZEN TEKI SAYS:

If we trade for Garcia before tomorrows game who would pitch?

Kinda blows you mind doesn't it?

MRKARNO
06-03-2004, 04:55 PM
I think that's all that 3-4 months of Garcia is really worth though, Rowand and Rauch. None of the other teams can match that. Even though Rauch was terrible in his one start with us the fact that he can post a 3 ERA in AAA is a lot more than you could say about a lot of the Yankee or Red Sox prospects. And unlike a lot of other teams, the M's dont care about the money, they already have it. They need the talent. Rowand might turn out to be servicable. He'd probably be an over Randy Winn right now in Seattle. Rowand does have a lot of power and if he ever figured it out he could turn out pretty well, but he does not figure into our plans with Reed and Borchard in the near term and Sweeney and Anderson in the long term.

The Yanks or Red Sox are not going to be able to give up as much as Rauch and Rowand and I dont think the dodgers have enough mediocre prospects to give up either. We're easily the favorites for Garcia if we cant do better. People will talk Red Sox this Yankees that because some people are convinced that any tradable talent will go to one of those two clubs, but I dont see how either is going to be able to get anything decent via trade unless they want Kris Benson.

Navaro's Talent
06-03-2004, 05:04 PM
I think there is a good possibility that Kenny could sign Freddy to a long-term contract considering that the Sox no longer have to pay Koch's salary after this season and will probably not sign Valentin for $5 million ever again. I think Frank's contract goes up next season, but is it a significant increase? I'm not sure.

batmanZoSo
06-03-2004, 05:09 PM
Originally posted by Win1ForMe
BTW, if AAAron Rowand and John Rauch are the guys we move for Garcia then the M's GM should be fired. On the spot.

Garcia is clearly the guy to get. I mean first of all he's got the most experience out there, been in the playoffs a few times. But he's got that rent-a-player tag, so it won't take much to get him. And as the article pointed out, those bully teams don't have any prospects, we do. That was a pretty dead on article.

And with Ozzie around there's also a good chance he'll re-sign with us. It's the perfect scenario all around...he can be had for under market value and happens to be good friends with our manager.

MRKARNO
06-03-2004, 05:10 PM
Originally posted by Navaro's Talent
I think there is a good possibility that Kenny could sign Freddy to a long-term contract considering that the Sox no longer have to pay Koch's salary after this season and will probably not sign Valentin for $5 million ever again. I think Frank's contract goes up next season, but is it a significant increase? I'm not sure.

As long as Frank decides to excercize his option again he will make 8 million in 2005 (as opposed to 6 mil this year). If he declines but the club excercizes the option then it's 11 mil in 2005.

Navaro's Talent
06-03-2004, 05:18 PM
Originally posted by MRKARNO
As long as Frank decides to excercize his option again he will make 8 million in 2005 (as opposed to 6 mil this year). If he declines but the club excercizes the option then it's 11 mil in 2005.

Thanks for the info. I can't see Frank going anywhere else, so I'm going to guess that he will exercise his option on his own. It would be risky for him not to because who knows if Kenny would want him at $11 million. A $2 million raise doesn't seem too bad because of what I was saying earlier about Koch and Valentin.

MRKARNO
06-03-2004, 05:22 PM
Originally posted by Navaro's Talent
Thanks for the info. I can't see Frank going anywhere else, so I'm going to guess that he will exercise his option on his own. It would be risky for him not to because who knows if Kenny would want him at $11 million. A $2 million raise doesn't seem too bad because of what I was saying earlier about Koch and Valentin.

Kenny might not want to give him that kind of money, but if I were GM I wouldn't blink at doing that.

A. Cavatica
06-03-2004, 07:20 PM
Originally posted by samram
Rowand and Rauch can't be what Seattle is looking for-

Maybe play Rauch in center and have Rowand pitch?

Seriously, if there's any hope of Rauch & Rowand for Garcia, I would even throw in one of our better A-ball prospects to make that happen.

CanOfCorn
06-03-2004, 07:34 PM
Originally posted by doublem23
http://bartshim.com/images/carl-I.gif
Shuuuuuuuuuuuuuuut uuuuuuuuuuuuuuup....

:)

GDI, that's funny.


If it's Rauch and Rowand for Garcia, then maybe KW is part Jedi.

iwannago
06-03-2004, 08:19 PM
I'm surprised the article did not bring up Cotts or Adkins name.

CWSGuy406
06-03-2004, 08:30 PM
Originally posted by DaveIsHere
Do they know that aaron takes bad routes!!!!!!!! :o:

Shh - he takes good *wink* routes...

Lip Man 1
06-03-2004, 08:52 PM
Consider that in Otis' post he stated that the Sox feel very confident they can beat anybody else's offer and grab Freddy Garcia.

If what Otis says is gospel could the Sox be thinking about including Ordonez in a multi player deal with Seattle?

That's a sure way to beat 'anybody else's offer,' don't you think?

Lip

A. Cavatica
06-03-2004, 08:56 PM
I doubt it, Seattle wants prospects, not a rent-a-player.

OEO Magglio
06-03-2004, 08:58 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Consider that in Otis' post he stated that the Sox feel very confident they can beat anybody else's offer and grab Freddy Garcia.

If what Otis says is gospel could the Sox be thinking about including Ordonez in a multi player deal with Seattle?

That's a sure way to beat 'anybody else's offer,' don't you think?

Lip
Lip why would seattle want a rent a player making more then the player they are going to trade??

Win1ForMe
06-03-2004, 08:59 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1

If what Otis says is gospel could the Sox be thinking about including Ordonez in a multi player deal with Seattle?

That's a sure way to beat 'anybody else's offer,' don't you think?


Yeah, I bet Seattle can't wait to trade their rent-a-player for our rent-a-player. That move makes so much sense for both teams.

Actually, I'll rewrite it: Yeah, I bet Seattle can't wait to trade their rent-a-player for our rent-a-player. That move makes so much sense for both teams.

Lip Man 1
06-03-2004, 09:16 PM
Folks I'm not saying that's going to happen.

And to answer the question's perhaps Seattle feels that they can you know sign him. Perhaps as part of an overall massive roster turnover this off season.

Lip

SEALgep
06-03-2004, 09:20 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Folks I'm not saying that's going to happen.

And to answer the question's perhaps Seattle feels that they can you know sign him. Perhaps as part of an overall massive roster turnover this off season.

Lip Anythings possible, but I seriously doubt it. I don't think we'll trade Maggs, and I doubt they want a rent a player for their rent a player, especially since ours is having surgery. I'm sure he'll be fine, but I doubt people will be excited to trade for him until all is well.

MRKARNO
06-03-2004, 09:34 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Folks I'm not saying that's going to happen.

And to answer the question's perhaps Seattle feels that they can you know sign him. Perhaps as part of an overall massive roster turnover this off season.

Lip

While I agree with the basic premise of what you're saying I dissagree that Kenny Williams would trade Maggs. Based on his statements to the effect of "We're going for it this year," I would sincerely doubt that we'd trade our second best hitter. I believe Kenny Williams to the extent that he is going to do his best to have the best team he possibly can in 2004 without totally giving up our farm system as he did last year.

OEO Magglio
06-03-2004, 09:36 PM
Originally posted by MRKARNO
I would sincerely doubt that we'd trade our second best hitter.
Second best?? I think you mean best hitter.

batmanZoSo
06-03-2004, 10:35 PM
Originally posted by OEO Magglio
Second best?? I think you mean best hitter.

Second best sounds right to me. Thomas is still a better hitter. Maggs will never sniff a .454 on-base. And the former is batting .292 with 11 homers. Maggs = best ballplayer, not best hitter..until Thomas leaves or drops off dramatically.

fquaye149
06-03-2004, 10:44 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Folks I'm not saying that's going to happen.

And to answer the question's perhaps Seattle feels that they can you know sign him. Perhaps as part of an overall massive roster turnover this off season.

Lip

i'm not sure why maggs would sign with seattle unless he's strictly interested in an extra million or two a year

going from the cell to safeco would kill his home run numbers since maggs has never hit too many moonshots

not to mention that while we're no new york yankees the mariners seem to be entering the first step of rebuilding.


oh well. only time will tell.

34 Inch Stick
06-04-2004, 09:16 AM
One possibility that seems to have gotten lost after last weekend is a trade with the Angels. The Angels have been telling anyone who will listen that they believe that they have 6 starter caliber pitchers on their major league roster. Hawk mentioned when Ortiz came in to mop up on Sunday that the Angels could be showcasing him for the Sox. After looking at the lineup they put on the field it is obvious that they could use a bat with power at several positions.

The talk about Sheets and Sabathia seems far fetched to me given each players status as arbitration eligible for 2 more years. Of course Garcia is the best option apparently available, However part of negotiation is making the other person think that the market is not in their favor. Additional well placed leaks about the Angels could accomplish the goal. If Seattle does not work out we would have a fallback plan.

soxtalker
06-04-2004, 09:56 AM
Originally posted by 34 Inch Stick
One possibility that seems to have gotten lost after last weekend is a trade with the Angels. The Angels have been telling anyone who will listen that they believe that they have 6 starter caliber pitchers on their major league roster. Hawk mentioned when Ortiz came in to mop up on Sunday that the Angels could be showcasing him for the Sox. After looking at the lineup they put on the field it is obvious that they could use a bat with power at several positions.

The talk about Sheets and Sabathia seems far fetched to me given each players status as arbitration eligible for 2 more years. Of course Garcia is the best option apparently available, However part of negotiation is making the other person think that the market is not in their favor. Additional well placed leaks about the Angels could accomplish the goal. If Seattle does not work out we would have a fallback plan.

And what holes are the Angels looking to fill?

harwar
06-04-2004, 10:41 AM
The angels will get everyone back except troy glaus.Tim Salmon may be back as early as next monday,with the other soon to follow.

Randar68
06-04-2004, 10:43 AM
Originally posted by 34 Inch Stick
One possibility that seems to have gotten lost after last weekend is a trade with the Angels. The Angels have been telling anyone who will listen that they believe that they have 6 starter caliber pitchers on their major league roster. Hawk mentioned when Ortiz came in to mop up on Sunday that the Angels could be showcasing him for the Sox. After looking at the lineup they put on the field it is obvious that they could use a bat with power at several positions.

The talk about Sheets and Sabathia seems far fetched to me given each players status as arbitration eligible for 2 more years. Of course Garcia is the best option apparently available, However part of negotiation is making the other person think that the market is not in their favor. Additional well placed leaks about the Angels could accomplish the goal. If Seattle does not work out we would have a fallback plan.

Well, if it's possible to get Sheets, who makes about 2.5 million this year and is going to be in line for a nice raise with a good season, I think the Sox would be much better-suited to pursue him. I don't know if otis' rumblings are true, but Sheets still has a higher ceiling, is younger, and has far fewer off-the-field issues than Freddie Garcia (who isn't as good as advertised looking at home/away splits).

You all know that I'd take either, and if KW can get one of the 2 without giving up Reed/LTP/etc as has been suggested, he's got to do it.

nitetrain8601
06-04-2004, 08:41 PM
Originally posted by THE_HOOTER
Is Garcia a FA after this year?

If so, they shouldnt have to give up a ton to get him.

Rowand has little value, and I am sure the Sox would love to dump Rauch.

If they want Rauch and Borchard, I say no.

If we have to watch Borchard become a really good player after being so patient with him, it would be tough to swallow.

I only include Reed, Borchard, or Sweeney in deals that will get us longer term talent in return.

Garcia does not make us front runners-only more competitive.

It sounds to me like the Sox are the only ones willing to deal a upper tier prospect for Garcia.

I would offer Rauch for him---

If they want ROwand, take him.

So basically you want to sucker them into, nothin for 1 million dollar type deal. Hell no that's not going to happen. If it was Rauch and Borachard the Sox would be stupid not to pull the deal. Borchard doesnt have a shot here because he's not young enough to be future(5-7 years) and he's not good enough to play now with the team(that's why you dont move Reed).

MRKARNO
06-04-2004, 08:46 PM
Originally posted by nitetrain8601
So basically you want to sucker them into, nothin for 1 million dollar type deal. Hell no that's not going to happen. If it was Rauch and Borachard the Sox would be stupid not to pull the deal. Borchard doesnt have a shot here because he's not young enough to be future(5-7 years) and he's not good enough to play now with the team(that's why you dont move Reed).

Well Garcia's trade value isnt that high because he's a rent a player. Rauch/Diaz and Rowand could very well be the best offer they recieve, especially if it's Diaz.

And on Borchard:

1. He's not too old (25 isnt that old)

2. He is good enough to play now with the team

batmanZoSo
06-04-2004, 08:53 PM
Originally posted by MRKARNO


2. He is good enough to play now with the team

That remains to be seen. Well, surely he could be as good as Rowand, but that's not exactly what we hoped for now is it? He's not a bust yet, he's still got potential, but who knows...

gosox41
06-05-2004, 07:43 AM
Originally posted by soxtalker
And what holes are the Angels looking to fill?


3B. Glaus may be done for the year and I though the Angels weren't going to resign him.

Hasn't Ortiz been lousy this year? What's his contract like?


Bob