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clarkent
06-03-2004, 09:58 AM
Having worked with orthopaedic surgeons in the past, I think that there is a lot of misinformation about the injury. Namely, if he has a degenrative (ie; wear and tear) tear in the meniscus, the surgery is a relatively simple one. He should be well on the road to recovery within 2 weeks. With minor therapy and getting his hitting back on, Maggs could be back by the Cubs/Sox series at Comiskey.

But, if the real reason the surgery is being done is to explore the knee, watch out!! Then they may very well find the acl or mcl is torn. And if that is the case "season over!!"

And for those who say the MRI was negative-- that is a good sign. But MRI's are not conclusive, they are simply an imaging study which sometimes fails. Thus, the joke MRI= maybe really injured.

Let's hope for the 1st option. He has a good doctor here in Chicago. We will know on Friday.

doublem23
06-03-2004, 10:00 AM
From the way they are describing the injury (what he can do and when it hurts), it sounds a lot like a tear in the meniscus... We had a guy go down with that when I played ball in school and he was back in about 4 weeks.

Randar68
06-03-2004, 10:06 AM
Originally posted by doublem23
From the way they are describing the injury (what he can do and when it hurts), it sounds a lot like a tear in the meniscus... We had a guy go down with that when I played ball in school and he was back in about 4 weeks.

Yep. I understand the MRI's are often not conclusive, especially when there is any kind of swelling. Having had my knee scoped a couple times, it's still not fun and even though you can get around and walk on it, there is definite atrophy of the quad, hammy, and calf.

Assuming nothing major is wrong and it's a loose body (frayed cartilage or minor meniscus tear/fray, he will probably be out 2-4 weeks. If it's a bad meniscus tear, he could be out 4-8 weeks. ACL/MCL/etc injuries we all know are much more significant in terms of length of time he'll be out (year).


However, let's not get ahead of ourselves.

Clarkdog
06-03-2004, 10:13 AM
After reading the article in the Trib, and the description of the symptoms, I agree that it could be a tear in the meniscus. I had the same injury diagnosed last summer playing softball. The way the injury has progressed and the way Maggs and Herm describe it sound exactly like what plagued me for about a month last summer.

Initially, you get a pain that feels like it's behind your knee, it's not bad - it's just nagging and annoying. A soreness, that is there but comes and goes with it's intensity. It feels like the result of torquing your knee oddly. The pain doesn't last - it comes and goes. Eventually the pain subsides, but the knee then feels fatigued compared to the healthy one. It doesn't seem to fire with and much force as the other when you run. There's no pain in running - it's just that the knee feels weak. But eventually, the strength returns fully in about 4 weeks. It shouldn't require surgery unless the tear is major.

joeynach
06-03-2004, 11:31 AM
Originally posted by doublem23
From the way they are describing the injury (what he can do and when it hurts), it sounds a lot like a tear in the meniscus... We had a guy go down with that when I played ball in school and he was back in about 4 weeks.

Ok im not a doctor so im pretty confused here. The only thing i know is what i can compare to other baseball injuries. I agree with the theory that its a tear in the meniscus, but what is the meniscus? Is it a muscle, where is it located, what is the cure for a torn meniscus? The reason i beleive its the meniscus is becuase if it was a torn ACL or MCL we would all know it already as would he. THat is what happened to Patterson last year, and as soon as it happened he went down. He said he heard something pop or tear, and couldn't walk at all and had to be carried off the field. That is not what happened to Maggs, so just based on comparison i think this is leaning towards the meniscus injury, with whatever surgey it needs so he can be back in a 4 short weeks.

Lip Man 1
06-03-2004, 11:49 AM
If it's supposed to be four weeks why is Herm Schneider quoted in one of the Chicago newspapers today as saying that the Sox will try to get Maggs back right after the All Star break July 11-13.

That's closer to six weeks.

Lip

raul12
06-03-2004, 11:58 AM
Originally posted by joeynach
Ok im not a doctor so im pretty confused here. The only thing i know is what i can compare to other baseball injuries. I agree with the theory that its a tear in the meniscus, but what is the meniscus? Is it a muscle, where is it located, what is the cure for a torn meniscus? The reason i beleive its the meniscus is becuase if it was a torn ACL or MCL we would all know it already as would he. THat is what happened to Patterson last year, and as soon as it happened he went down. He said he heard something pop or tear, and couldn't walk at all and had to be carried off the field. That is not what happened to Maggs, so just based on comparison i think this is leaning towards the meniscus injury, with whatever surgey it needs so he can be back in a 4 short weeks.

The meniscus is cartilege between the femur and the lower knee bones. It's usually in the shape of a "U" (if you were looking down through your knee), but some people have a more frisbee shaped meniscus, which is much easier to tear. The most common tear is on the outer half of the meniscus. The meniscus often tears in a "V" shape, and flaps over. The tears are usually small.

I tore my meniscus last year. There are two ways to fix it--by cutting off the part that is flapped over, leaving a small hole in the meniscus, or stitching the meniscus back together. The partial meniscectomy only takes a few weeks to recover, whereas the repair takes 8 weeks to recover. Usually with athletes, they do the shorter recovery.

Randar68
06-03-2004, 12:05 PM
Originally posted by raul12
The meniscus is cartilege between the femur and the lower knee bones. It's usually in the shape of a "U" (if you were looking down through your knee), but some people have a more frisbee shaped meniscus, which is much easier to tear. The most common tear is on the outer half of the meniscus. The meniscus often tears in a "V" shape, and flaps over. The tears are usually small.

I tore my meniscus last year. There are two ways to fix it--by cutting off the part that is flapped over, leaving a small hole in the meniscus, or stitching the meniscus back together. The partial meniscectomy only takes a few weeks to recover, whereas the repair takes 8 weeks to recover. Usually with athletes, they do the shorter recovery.

Good synopsis.

Tekijawa
06-03-2004, 01:15 PM
The headline on Whitesox.com is Maggs Could miss 7 weeks... Let's hope they report injuries completely oposite of the way the cubs do!

harwar
06-03-2004, 01:45 PM
The waiting to hear part is going to be tough.Its always the worst part for me.
The fact that prior is having his first start tomorrow may somewhat hinder the news getting out as fast as it might otherwise.
The cub media will be in a frenzy over that and just might not give a rats ass about us.

Tekijawa
06-03-2004, 02:40 PM
Originally posted by harwar
The waiting to hear part is going to be tough.Its always the worst part for me.
The fact that prior is having his first start tomorrow may somewhat hinder the news getting out as fast as it might otherwise.
The cub media will be in a frenzy over that and just might not give a rats ass about us.

You mean no Magglio Watch on the front page?

voodoochile
06-03-2004, 03:48 PM
Originally posted by raul12
The meniscus is cartilege between the femur and the lower knee bones. It's usually in the shape of a "U" (if you were looking down through your knee), but some people have a more frisbee shaped meniscus, which is much easier to tear. The most common tear is on the outer half of the meniscus. The meniscus often tears in a "V" shape, and flaps over. The tears are usually small.

I tore my meniscus last year. There are two ways to fix it--by cutting off the part that is flapped over, leaving a small hole in the meniscus, or stitching the meniscus back together. The partial meniscectomy only takes a few weeks to recover, whereas the repair takes 8 weeks to recover. Usually with athletes, they do the shorter recovery.

That depends, often they will go for the longer recovery in younger people because they don't want to start tearing the body apart at a young age. My friend tore his ACL when he was around the same age and also partially tore the meniscus and they intentionally told him to get it repaired so he would have all of his cartilege later in life.

With a young athlete, I would be shocked to find they suggested trimming it instead of repairing it. Maggs should get a second opinion and get it done right even if it means longer stay on the DL. His knee, his future, his life...

Tekijawa
06-03-2004, 03:54 PM
It also sounds similar to the tendonitis I used to get in both of my knee's in college, although I don't think they said anything about burning occasionally in his knees... I know I'd feel fine, but my knee would be much weaker, I could run but it hurt to slow down and cut, it didn't take much to set it off and would come out of no where after landing wrong or something and then just slowly start to flare up... But the burning feeling was always a dead give away to when I knew it was comming back.

MRKARNO
06-03-2004, 04:40 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
If it's supposed to be four weeks why is Herm Schneider quoted in one of the Chicago newspapers today as saying that the Sox will try to get Maggs back right after the All Star break July 11-13.

That's closer to six weeks.

Lip

Well I dont really classify this as misinformation. It's not like with the Cubs with Wood and Prior where they said that both would miss a very short amount of time and Prior missed 3 months of ST and the reg season while Wood might be gone a long time as well. They have been pretty upfront about how long it's going to take for Maggs to get better and they arent afraid to say that they fear he could be gone 7 weeks.

raul12
06-03-2004, 05:13 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
That depends, often they will go for the longer recovery in younger people because they don't want to start tearing the body apart at a young age. My friend tore his ACL when he was around the same age and also partially tore the meniscus and they intentionally told him to get it repaired so he would have all of his cartilege later in life.

With a young athlete, I would be shocked to find they suggested trimming it instead of repairing it. Maggs should get a second opinion and get it done right even if it means longer stay on the DL. His knee, his future, his life...

Actually, the arthritis issue is probably overblown since the data it's based on are people who had partial meniscectomies 20 years ago. At that time, they took out a LOT more cartilege than what they do now. Lots of PT's and orthopaedic doctors think that the long-term effects are not that big of a deal.

As for me, I had to get the partial meniscectomy, plus I had the deformed meniscus in the first place, so the doctor re-shaped it while he was at it.

ode to veeck
06-03-2004, 05:25 PM
I had a medial menicus tear repaired in March and was playing tennis again a few weeks later, although I am still not able to play competitive singles for at least a couple more months (which is pretty grueling on the knee) The work done in my case was to cut away a moderate tear, plus planing down of a moderate level of abraision on one side that didn't appear in the MRI.

Everyone has two menisci on each knee, one on the inside of the knee (medial) and one on the outside. Menisci are donut or U shaped mostly flat (like a disk with a hole in it) pieces of cartilidge that act as shock absorbers between the "knobs" of your femur (thigh bone) and tibia (shin bone). Like ACLs they have very poor blood circulation, so even small minor tears don't go away on their own.

MRIs will usually detect a tear but not see other problems. For example, my surgoen didn't know about the abraison issues I had until he got into my knee with the arthroscope. Most of the time, tears are repaired by removing a small bit of the meniscus (with the tear).

In either case, people can be up and around very quickly (I walked to the car the day of the surgery) and somewhat active in a few weeks, though some of the most strenuous activities may be a few months (Serena Willams took nearly a year off, and is still seeing some swelling). Other types of cartiledge repair typically take up to a year for recovery, & often include some permanent reduction in capability.

Even with just minor menisci repair, the knee is then more susceptable to arthritis, inflammation, and other issues. I now take anti inflammatories before I play or use my knee physically and usually only suffer a minor amount of swelling (as long as I keep it under 5 or 6 sets of tennis).

I would suspect for most types of menisci repair, baseball (other than catching or maybe pitching) could be a 4-6 week thing from date of surgery. My surgeon promised I'd be faster when it was all said and done, as long as I was diligent about physical therapy, & he had worked on many famous knees of the NFL, NHL, etc. For me, speed is no longer the issue, but endurance still is.

I haven't seen anything official that said they'd diagnosed Maggs with anything specific yet. If it is a meniscus, tear, that should be easy to see and they ought to know within a day or so. Maybe they didn't MRI the knee when they were originally looking at his calf for possible muscle tears there (the original hypothesis).

If it is another cartiledge or a knee ligament, that could be much longer than a few weeks. On the other hand if its muscle issues somewhere, that should take 4-6 weeks max, assuming no re-injury.

ode to veeck
06-03-2004, 05:44 PM
Chicago Sports Review said if needed (after meeting wth Sox doc Charles Bush-Joseph) he was getting arthroscope Friday morning, which would mean several weeks. Same article said Sox will be calling up Jamie Burke.

If it is knee issues, good thing he didn't actually didn't pinch hit Tuesday night. He owes Jose one there.

chicagosportsreview (http://www.chicagosportsreview.com/chicago/chicagoview.asp?c=110116)

Lip Man 1
06-03-2004, 09:05 PM
Just wondering for all the Dr. Kildare's out there :smile:

Can anybody explain how a 'calf injury' can turn into a knee injury? Either some doctors and trainers blew it big time or something else happened that Mags didn't know about.

Lip

Jjav829
06-03-2004, 09:12 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Just wondering for all the Dr. Kildare's out there :smile:

Can anybody explain how a 'calf injury' can turn into a knee injury? Either some doctors and trainers blew it big time or something else happened that Mags didn't know about.

Lip

I doubt there ever was a calf injury. To me, this is just like the Cubs with Prior. It morphed from him having an Achilles problem to "Oops, well, he has an elbow problem." Sounds to me like the calf was just used as an excuse for why he was out while they tried to figure out what was wrong with his knee.

ode to veeck
06-03-2004, 09:30 PM
It also continues to sound like they're not clear on a diagnosis yet, in spite of the fact that Magglio saw the A's orthepedist, the Sox's docs, flew to see the Anaheim specialist yesterday, and is getting more testing today by the docs here again in Chicago.

From the Sox site: [Sox trainer] Schneider stated categorically that the injury had nothing to do with an anterior cruciate ligament problem and hypothesized that it could be a degenerative problem for Ordoņez that was aggravated over time. But the sooner it's taken care of, the sooner Ordonez can return.

"It's a conglomeration of the distal part of the hamstring, the calf and maybe the medial side of the knee," Schneider said. "He's having a miserable time of it, and he's miserable because it's hard for him because he doesn't have a whole lot of pain as he walks around or is in the clubhouse and all that.


Maggs has reported pain in various places, starting with the calf. They likely MRI'd only the calf originally, but now with more knee pain appearing are looking there. Given Maggs felt it was pretty minor and was consistently saying he would be back in a day or so, they probably didnt pursue it further until he really started realizing it was getting worse on Tuesday.

I don't know that you can blame the Sox's docs. Even after several orthopedists consulting, it seems there's still no clear cut answers, and sounds like they'll go in the knee with an arthroscope tomorrow even if today's tests don't turn up an answer, just to start the clock on his eventual return sooner, unless today's tests turn up something more definite away from the knee--not very likely given the turn the discomfort's taking.

Darn the bad luck though, if it coulda been diagnosed when it happened, we might be 2 weeks closer to having Magglio back.

DickAllen72
06-03-2004, 10:37 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Just wondering for all the Dr. Kildare's out there :smile:

Can anybody explain how a 'calf injury' can turn into a knee injury? Either some doctors and trainers blew it big time or something else happened that Mags didn't know about.

Lip

From what I understand, Maggs had pain behind his knee near the top of the calf muscle. This could have been "referred pain" from damage inside the knee.

Sometimes when you have an injury to a specific part of the body, you feel the pain in the vicinity of the injury but not directly at the precise point of the injury. Sometimes an injured back will produce pain in the hip for example.

ode to veeck
06-04-2004, 01:11 AM
Is referred pain like when your head starts hurting when Ozzie puts Koch in a one run game in the ninth? ... or does your butt start hurtin before the actual injury cause there's only one sheet of toilet paper left and your stomach feels like you overate at a bad mexican restaurant

raul12
06-04-2004, 07:44 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Just wondering for all the Dr. Kildare's out there :smile:

Can anybody explain how a 'calf injury' can turn into a knee injury? Either some doctors and trainers blew it big time or something else happened that Mags didn't know about.

Lip

What will happen a lot of the time is that the calf muscle with try to over compensate for the knee injury. When my PT was working on my knee after my injury (before they knew it was a torn meniscus), he was primarily working on my calf b/c it had basically cramped up.

It's amazing how one thing can affect another.

And that's Dr. to you. I didn't go to six years of evil medical school to be called Mr., thank you very much! :D:

fhqwhgads
06-04-2004, 08:32 AM
If they are removing the meniscus, expect 8 weeks. That's the surgery Joe Mauer had after the injury on April 6. He just came off the DL this week.

SEALgep
06-04-2004, 09:23 AM
Originally posted by fhqwhgads
If they are removing the meniscus, expect 8 weeks. That's the surgery Joe Mauer had after the injury on April 6. He just came off the DL this week. Ya but Maggs is a real man, so expect seven weeks. :D: