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View Full Version : Koch = He Gone!


SoxBoy14
06-02-2004, 08:16 PM
I don't know about everybody else but I've seen enough of Billy Koch. It seems as if he can't go a single inning without giving up a run. I say from now on Shingo or Poliete takes the mound when it's the bottom of the 9th and we're up only 1 or 2 runs. In fact Koch should come in when we're up by at least 5 runs. I know he used to throw smoke and sometimes he has his good games, but too many blown saves has lost him his starting closer job.

soxtalker
06-02-2004, 08:21 PM
A couple of the guys on ESPN were trying to argue that he simply was a victim of two broken-bat (i.e., lucky) singles.

SoxBoy14
06-02-2004, 08:25 PM
Originally posted by soxtalker
A couple of the guys on ESPN were trying to argue that he simply was a victim of two broken-bat (i.e., lucky) singles.

I'm surprised ESPN even knew that there is another team in chicago other than the flubbs.

Tragg
06-02-2004, 08:25 PM
Originally posted by soxtalker
A couple of the guys on ESPN were trying to argue that he simply was a victim of two broken-bat (i.e., lucky) singles.

I think they have a point.

SoxBoy14
06-02-2004, 08:29 PM
I do admit that there were some cheap hits, like that one to the right fielder, but still Shingo was doing good on the mound why not put him on there. Everytime Koch gets on the mound and its a close game my confidence in the Sox winning the game decreases dramatically. He's not a very dependable closer.

doublem23
06-02-2004, 08:30 PM
Originally posted by Tragg
I think they have a point.

They may have a point but when you're consistently the victim of "bad luck," maybe its time to stop being placed into situations where you have a slim marigin of error, luck or not.

OEO Magglio
06-02-2004, 08:32 PM
Originally posted by doublem23
They may have a point but when you're consistently the victim of "bad luck," maybe its time to stop being placed into situations where you have a slim marigin of error, luck or not.
Now I'm really confused. Everyone earlier in the year was just saying he was getting lucky everytime he was going out there but now he's having bad luck all the time. :?:

Konerkoholic
06-02-2004, 08:34 PM
While I don't balme Koch for the loss today (Hatteberg did a hell of a job hitting that high fastball), I do think someone else could do a better job closing out ballgames. The guy to do it is Takatsu. He hasn't given up a run in 16 appearances, and he's closed his whole career. It fits.

ChiSox7
06-02-2004, 08:46 PM
THis game was ALL about the offense's failure to get runs when they had the opportunity. You can't leave 14 men on base and expect to win many ballgames.

SOXPHILE
06-02-2004, 09:11 PM
I agree. Koch blew the save again, but the offense really was at fault. They had several good chances to score more than just the two they did. Hopefully, they can pick it up again in Seattle.

MikeKreevich
06-02-2004, 10:28 PM
"Koch should never pitch again with the game on the line." Corey McPherin on the 9 oclock news tonight. Belly Koch is closing because of his contract and that's not right. I want to see Takatsu get a chance.

Gumshoe
06-02-2004, 11:42 PM
To his credit, Koch is a stand up guy when things go wrong. He never makes excuses.

But the real issue: Is he a good closer? Lately he has been better, but there is not much data for us here Chicago, with what we've seen and recorded (in stats) that suggests that Koch is anything but a heart attack waiting to happen, every time he goes out there.

Yes, the Sox should have scored more runs. But who cares? You're not always going to score a ton of runs. Is it that much harder for a guy to come in and shut down 3 guys who haven't seen him all game? Come on. As I like to say, better we lose now with him in there so Ozzie realizes that he isn't the go-to guy later on in the year when it gets really heated. Go with Shingo.

Can anyone say even before today's BS that they would feel comfortable with Koch in a playoff situation?

G

inta
06-03-2004, 12:09 AM
jesus christ.
WSI is no longer the place for sports fans to gather.
instead it's a place for scapegoaters and rumormongers to gather...

no doubt koch pitched mediocre today, but todays loss lands on our offense. how many times did we leave RISP?

Koch has been solid for weeks now. you scapegoaters have been waiting for today to jump all over his case.

MRKARNO
06-03-2004, 12:13 AM
Originally posted by inta
jesus christ.
WSI is no longer the place for sports fans to gather.
instead it's a place for scapegoaters and rumormongers to gather...

no doubt koch pitched mediocre today, but todays loss lands on our offense. how many times did we leave RISP?

Koch has been solid for weeks now. you scapegoaters have been waiting for today to jump all over his case.

It's hard to ignore the fact that Koch has a 4.43 ERA while Takatsu has a 1.33 ERA and has been practically unhittable except against the Yankees.

inta
06-03-2004, 12:21 AM
the WSI unintelligensia has been waiting for today for weeks now.

wow, what a surprise, Koch's ex team knows his pitches.
quit the scapegoating. today's loss is not koch's fault entirely.
it takes a team to win a division.... or lose it.


check the left on base ratios for today.


god. sometimes i feel embarassed i hang on this board.

OurBitchinMinny
06-03-2004, 12:57 AM
Originally posted by SoxBoy14
I don't know about everybody else but I've seen enough of Billy Koch. It seems as if he can't go a single inning without giving up a run. I say from now on Shingo or Poliete takes the mound when it's the bottom of the 9th and we're up only 1 or 2 runs. In fact Koch should come in when we're up by at least 5 runs. I know he used to throw smoke and sometimes he has his good games, but too many blown saves has lost him his starting closer job.


I get as nervous as anyone when koch comes into the game, but today was not one of his worst performances and he does only have two blown saves. Two broken bat hits and for some reason a broken down old cathcer was catching him in the bottom of the ninth. I understand alomar catches buerhle, but he should leave when mark does. That wild pitch was not an uncatchable ball and olivo would have stopped it and the runner would not have moved up. I dont know what you do, but the sox pen is not great by any stretch. Cotts and adkins have been horrible lately. You never know which marte will show up. Shingo has been great, but I think the league will eventually figure him out. Pollite has been up and down. Jackson is old, but has been fairly solid. No one is an automatic 1-2-3 inning for sure (well I guess shingo is for now).

MRKARNO
06-03-2004, 01:02 AM
Originally posted by inta
the WSI unintelligensia has been waiting for today for weeks now.

wow, what a surprise, Koch's ex team knows his pitches.
quit the scapegoating. today's loss is not koch's fault entirely.
it takes a team to win a division.... or lose it.


check the left on base ratios for today.


god. sometimes i feel embarassed i hang on this board.

It's not that it's Koch's fault we lost the game, it's that he isn't the best option we have at closer. Shingo and Marte would clearly be better options at closer. It's only because of the $$$$ that Koch is still the closer. The fact is that if we're up by one run in a playoff game, I dont want to see Koch out there at any cost. Shingo is the one whom I'd trust the most to not give up a run.

mdep524
06-03-2004, 01:11 AM
Originally posted by inta
jesus christ.
WSI is no longer the place for sports fans to gather.
instead it's a place for scapegoaters and rumormongers to gather...

no doubt koch pitched mediocre today, but todays loss lands on our offense. how many times did we leave RISP?

Koch has been solid for weeks now. you scapegoaters have been waiting for today to jump all over his case.

inta you need to chill, man. It IS Koch's fault we lost this game because, because the Sox not scoring any insurance runs has NOTHING to do with Billy Koch's physical performance on that mound in the 9th inning. A closer needs to be able to pitch with a one run lead regardless of the circumstances. Supposed both the Sox and the A's had scored 4 more runs earlier in the game, so the score was 6-5 in the 9th instead of 2-1, would that make a difference? No.

Koch blows. Anybody with even the slightest amount of baseball intuition knows it. Yet the Sox ignore it becasue a.)they're stubborn b.) they're stupid and c.)his contract. Awful reasons to make a baseball decision.

inta
06-03-2004, 02:30 AM
Originally posted by MRKARNO
It's not that it's Koch's fault we lost the game, it's that he isn't the best option we have at closer. Shingo and Marte would clearly be better options at closer. It's only because of the $$$$ that Koch is still the closer. The fact is that if we're up by one run in a playoff game, I dont want to see Koch out there at any cost. Shingo is the one whom I'd trust the most to not give up a run.

I'll agree with you on Shingo... why he's not our closer boggles my mind... Maybe ozzie is afraid the scouts have his changeup scouted and in the books... i have no idea, but IMO he should be closing.

Marte on the other hand... I just don't see why so many sox fans have faith in him.
yes. i think he did fantastically in yesterday's game until ozzie put him in for a 3rd inning.... but he's blown far more games than Koch has.

Koch is a heart attack. yes. but the guy has been solid until today. for some reason sox fans just jump all over any slip up by him (and declare any no hit inning by him a fluke) because we lost Foulke.
hell, I'd take Koch over Farnsworth or 80% of the (c)losers in the league any day.


mdep524: please refrain from posting while high.
11 hits and 2 runs scored? and that's not counting when they walked the bases full in the 9th for rowand...
14 stranded baserunners? with bases loaded in the 8th and 9th?
this loss is on the offense pal.
c'mon. get a clue.

Hokiesox
06-03-2004, 07:08 AM
What could we trade Koch for by now? A Rosin bag? Maybe he's worth 6 million rosin bags.

BigEdWalsh
06-03-2004, 07:38 AM
Originally posted by MRKARNO
It's hard to ignore the fact that Koch has a 4.43 ERA while Takatsu has a 1.33 ERA and has been practically unhittable except against the Yankees.

This is so plain and simple, I don't get why all the bleeding hearts and their sympathy for Koch.....

Koch hasn't been very good since he joined the team. Marte picked up the slack last year when Koch turned out to be pretty much of a bust. This year let's see if maybe Shingo's the Man. He's earned a shot.

I'm getting tired of all this "Don't worry, the sky is not falling" talk. Agreed, the sky is not falling. However, why sit around with our heads in the clouds thinking (like Cub fans tend to do) that we're fine-we're gonna win this thing? Why not make a few changes to some things that aren't working very well? It's not the same as saying, "The sky is falling"!

soxtalker
06-03-2004, 09:10 AM
It would have been nice to have had more runs, but it is Koch's job to close the opposition down with a one-run lead. And he was responsible for that run; the two singles may have been "cheap", but there was a key wild pitch. Having said all of that, I don't agree with those who say that Koch is worthless. I think that his record looks good, and his pitching, in general, is much improved. If he was on the market, I bet that he'd command a lot of value right now.

I have felt for awhile that Takatsu should be given the closer role. But that's not a sure thing either. His pitching style is so different that hitters and teams may figure out how to get to him in the latter part of the season. It is truly amazing to see him in action at the ball park, but, make no mistake, he does allow the hitters to put the ball into play. While someone with Koch's speed can strike out the side, I doubt that Takatsu will do so. So, I'd expect him to be giving up some runs eventually.

Over By There
06-03-2004, 09:27 AM
Originally posted by inta
the WSI unintelligensia has been waiting for today for weeks now.

wow, what a surprise, Koch's ex team knows his pitches.
quit the scapegoating. today's loss is not koch's fault entirely.
it takes a team to win a division.... or lose it.


check the left on base ratios for today.


god. sometimes i feel embarassed i hang on this board.

You're right, it does take a team, and Koch is part of the team. The offense scored more runs going into the bottom of the 9th than the opposition. I think you'd agree that this is the situation where the closer is supposed to make his contribution to the team. It's unrealistic to think that we're going to outscore our opponents by 3, 4, 5 runs every game so that Koch can give up a run or two every outing.

By the way, your comments are well taken, but check your vitriolic comments about embarrassment and people being on drugs at the door, or go find someplace better to spew your wisdom.

bennyw41
06-03-2004, 09:30 AM
I agree with the last few posters. It doesn't matter whether or not the offense scores, because this is a debate about the closer position. And a closer is not supposed to blow saves. PERIOD. The fault of the loss may lay on many things, but bottomline, your closer comes in with 3 runs or less lead, and is expected to finish this game. I gave Koch a chance, and he is not panning out.

CubKilla
06-03-2004, 09:37 AM
Originally posted by bennyw41
I agree with the last few posters. It doesn't matter whether or not the offense scores, because this is a debate about the closer position. And a closer is not supposed to blow saves. PERIOD. The fault of the loss may lay on many things, but bottomline, your closer comes in with 3 runs or less lead, and is expected to finish this game. I gave Koch a chance, and he is not panning out.

Good summarization. After reading a couple of garbage posts about "blame the offense..... not Botch," you hit the nail on the head. It's a closers job to close out a game whether you have a one run lead or a three run lead..... whether the score is 1-0 or 7-4 or, in some cases, 8-3 or 5-1. Botch is a headcase and CANNOT close many games, especially against decent to above average offenses, without at least one run scoring.

While we're at it, why don't we blame Sandy Alomar since he couldn't handle that garbage pitch by Botch which allowed a runner to get into scoring position.

skottyj242
06-03-2004, 09:39 AM
If Sandy doesn't let that ball go through his legs Koch doesn't give up the run.

bennyw41
06-03-2004, 09:44 AM
Originally posted by skottyj242
If Sandy doesn't let that ball go through his legs Koch doesn't give up the run.

As my dad always says "If the queen had balls, she'd be the king". Your logic is so flawed. If the player wasn't on base, he wouldn't of moved up. Use your head.

SoxFan78
06-03-2004, 09:44 AM
I thought the thing that made us stand out from those fans from up north is that we don't embrace losing. We want our team to win all the time. "Oh, its just another loss, its ok". No, its not ok. Koch has gotten lucky when he has come in the majority of the time. I saw this against Baltimore when he had a three run lead I think and still let in a run or two. "It's ok, we still got the win." It's not ok, and why isn't it? I think yesterday is proof enough. There are no excuses at all for him letting in a run in the bottom of the ninth. Yeah, the sox should of scored in the 8th and 9th. But the sox HAD the lead in the bottom of the ninth. That should of been a White Sox Winner.

Lets see what all the Koch supporters say when he lets up a lead in the bottom of the ninth in the playoffs...


I never thought I would say this, but thank god for Tampa Bay.

CubKilla
06-03-2004, 09:45 AM
Originally posted by skottyj242
If Sandy doesn't let that ball go through his legs Koch doesn't give up the run.

Debatable. But we'll never know. FWIW, me and my friend who was at my place watching the game, figured the run still would have scored given what happened in that inning after the WP.

skottyj242
06-03-2004, 09:47 AM
I did use my head, and that's what I came up with.

bennyw41
06-03-2004, 09:47 AM
Maybe thats the problem.

Billy....is that you?

CubKilla
06-03-2004, 09:51 AM
Originally posted by skottyj242
I did use my head, and that's what I came up with.

So Botch is blameless? It's everyone else's fault but Botch? Are you serious?

skottyj242
06-03-2004, 09:54 AM
Yeah that's exactly what I'm saying.

bennyw41
06-03-2004, 09:55 AM
Totally agreed killa, I mean, when Gagne, or Graves gets a save, nobody gives credit to anyone but him. So it should be the same for when a save is blown.

bennyw41
06-03-2004, 09:56 AM
Originally posted by skottyj242
Yeah that's exactly what I'm saying.


Your sarcasm liscense has been revoked. Its not working, and not witty.

Hangar18
06-03-2004, 09:59 AM
Yesterdays game made me Sick. Ive officially had it
with Billy Koch. Sure.....rowand gets a hit we score the insurance run, maybe we win it. 1 run lead with Koch
isnt anything to be afraid of.........if your the opposition.
Just think of the millions we saved getting RID of Foulke....
Nice Job Jerry

skottyj242
06-03-2004, 10:06 AM
My sarcasm license is revoked, what the hell does that mean?

idseer
06-03-2004, 10:17 AM
Originally posted by bennyw41
As my dad always says "If the queen had balls, she'd be the king". Your logic is so flawed. If the player wasn't on base, he wouldn't of moved up. Use your head.

i'm tired of this crap excuse too.

it was a WILD PITCH ... not a passed ball! tell me, whose fault is a wild pitch?

bennyw41
06-03-2004, 10:18 AM
Originally posted by skottyj242
My sarcasm license is revoked, what the hell does that mean?

Randar.....do you have that Clue Coupon? Forget it, you are obviously going to defend Koch to the end of the earth, I just hope you are realistic about his abilities.

wilburwood
06-03-2004, 11:35 AM
i would not call Botch blameless, but the fact remains 2 runs don't win many games in the AL. I always feel like 5 runs is about where we need to be.

mdep524
06-03-2004, 11:52 AM
Originally posted by inta
I'll agree with you on Shingo... why he's not our closer boggles my mind... Maybe ozzie is afraid the scouts have his changeup scouted and in the books... i have no idea, but IMO he should be closing.

Marte on the other hand... I just don't see why so many sox fans have faith in him.
yes. i think he did fantastically in yesterday's game until ozzie put him in for a 3rd inning.... but he's blown far more games than Koch has.

Koch is a heart attack. yes. but the guy has been solid until today. for some reason sox fans just jump all over any slip up by him (and declare any no hit inning by him a fluke) because we lost Foulke.
hell, I'd take Koch over Farnsworth or 80% of the (c)losers in the league any day.

mdep524: please refrain from posting while high.
11 hits and 2 runs scored? and that's not counting when they walked the bases full in the 9th for rowand...
14 stranded baserunners? with bases loaded in the 8th and 9th?
this loss is on the offense pal.
c'mon. get a clue.

inta, let me ask you, do you watch baseball games or just look at the box scores? I agree the Sox should have scored several more runs yesterday-but that has NOTHING to do with Billy Koch.

You have no credibility in my book if you say Koch has been "solid" until today. He's a timebomb waiting to explode- that much is obvious from WATCHING him pitch (no control, no out pitch, no velocity, no movement, no ability to hold runners on base, can't defend his position). There's no getting around the fact he has no "stuff" to be major league closer, and yet the Sox trot him out there every ninth inning like nothing is wrong. Honestly, it makes me question my faith and fandom in this team to see such asanine decision making. :(:

mdep524
06-03-2004, 11:53 AM
Originally posted by wilburwood
i would not call Botch blameless, but the fact remains 2 runs don't win many games in the AL. I always feel like 5 runs is about where we need to be.

So if the score was 5-4 instead of 2-1 and Koch blew the lead in the ninth that would be different?

JRIG
06-03-2004, 12:07 PM
Friends of Koch when he allows two runs with a three run lead and still gets the save:

"It doesn't matter what he did in that inning. It doesn't matter how many hits he allowed or how many runs. Getting the save is what matters. It's what he's paid to do."

Friends of Koch when he enters the game with a one run lead and blows it:

"The offense shouldn't have only given him a one-run lead. It doesn't matter that he didn't get the save. He's pitched well recently. Lay off him."

Convenient to have an excuse for everything.

CubKilla
06-03-2004, 12:15 PM
Originally posted by bennyw41
Forget it, you are obviously going to defend Koch to the end of the earth, I just hope you are realistic about his abilities.

Solely based on his posts in this thread, I'd say that your hope for him to be "realistic" about Botch's "abilities" is wishful thinking.

mcfish
06-03-2004, 02:39 PM
Initial reaction in the chat room had everyone blaming Rowand yesterday for the loss, so if anyone wants to get back on that bandwagon it would be fine too. Billy had a poor outing yesterday, but he didn't cause the loss - he blew a save, Adkins got the loss. And in addition to the bases loaded in the 8th and 9th, a man was left stranded on 3rd in the 10th.

I guess what I'm trying to say is "Well, you know, it was a team effort, and I guess it took every player working together to lose this one." Gotta love Baseketball.