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Jerome
06-02-2004, 09:03 PM
I think with the way they both pitched in Oakland, we should give Shingo and Marte a few chances at closing. If Krotch has one more BS, we need to make a change. I don't care if his fastball hit 99 or 101 in one game against Texas. What would you think of maybe a closer by committee with Shingo facing mostly righties, and Marte brought in to face tough lefties in the ninth? I know I don't want to see two closers for the whole season, but anything would be better than what we've got right now. (Except Sweaty Joe Borrowski)

SoxBoy14
06-02-2004, 09:10 PM
I wouldn't mind seeing Polite on the mound.




:bkoch:
What about me?

soxfan2425
06-02-2004, 09:48 PM
where is wunsch on thislist he cant do any worse

ChiSox7
06-02-2004, 09:52 PM
Wow. He's blown two saves. You guys are head hunters, just waiting to pounce when he sucks. Why don't you have a poll about them picking it up on offense so we could be up 5 or 6 runs like we should have been today. Offense lost that game, not Koch.

idseer
06-02-2004, 09:52 PM
so far it looks like the kiss of death for our best reliever. poor shingo.

mantis1212
06-02-2004, 09:58 PM
Originally posted by ChiSox7
Wow. He's blown two saves. You guys are head hunters, just waiting to pounce when he sucks. Why don't you have a poll about them picking it up on offense so we could be up 5 or 6 runs like we should have been today. Offense lost that game, not Koch.

He's lucky he hasn't blown five, honestly. That would be worse than fifty percent. Are you watching the same games as everyone else? He has ONE 1-2-3 inning in like, two years!! Tell me you don't cringe every time you see the back of his jersey.

ode to veeck
06-02-2004, 10:00 PM
Mark Grace, he's got all the pace that Shingo has on his changeup

ChiSox7
06-02-2004, 10:02 PM
Originally posted by mantis1212
He's lucky he hasn't blown five, honestly. That would be worse than fifty percent. Are you watching the same games as everyone else? He has ONE 1-2-3 inning in like, two years!! Tell me you don't cringe every time you see the back of his jersey.

He's had two 1-2-3 innings in the last week. He's lucky he didnt blow the saves, but he didnt blow the saves. He had two bloops hits against him today. IT happens to closers

7/9 is 7/9

idseer
06-02-2004, 10:07 PM
Originally posted by ChiSox7
He's had two 1-2-3 innings in the last week. He's lucky he didnt blow the saves, but he didnt blow the saves. He had two bloops hits against him today. IT happens to closers

7/9 is 7/9

yeah, it happens.

is there another team whose closer has an era of 4.43?

mantis1212
06-02-2004, 10:12 PM
Originally posted by ChiSox7
He's had two 1-2-3 innings in the last week. He's lucky he didnt blow the saves, but he didnt blow the saves. He had two bloops hits against him today. IT happens to closers

7/9 is 7/9

If he did they weren't save situations. I also seem to remember a game against Baltimore where he gave up three runs yet earned a save. Maybe only two he was responsible for, but come on- he's the last guy on the staff I want to see in the ninth inning, maybe except for Politte

ChiSox7
06-02-2004, 10:20 PM
Originally posted by idseer
yeah, it happens.

is there another team whose closer has an era of 4.43?

You're not serious are you? There are 22 pitchers that have blown just as many if not more saves that Koch. Other than Rivera, Gagne, Hoffman, Wagner and a couple others, most closers ahve an ERA close to 4 if not above. John Smoltz even has two blown saves.

Easy Eddie has three blown saves. Troy Percival has an ERA over five and 4 blown saves.

Percival, Chacon, Biddle, Mantei, Urbina all have a higher ERA than Koch.

Even our beloved Foulke has as many BS as Koch.

Is he awesome? No. Is he dominant? No. Is he solid? Yes, I think so. If the offense scores the team an extra run or two with those FOURTEEN left on, we're not having this convo.

Whitesox029
06-02-2004, 10:30 PM
Originally posted by ChiSox7
Wow. He's blown two saves. You guys are head hunters, just waiting to pounce when he sucks. Why don't you have a poll about them picking it up on offense so we could be up 5 or 6 runs like we should have been today. Offense lost that game, not Koch.
That's not the point. The point is that two blown saves is two too many. Shingo has 0 blown saves right now (yes, because he hasn't had any opportunities) and a much better ERA. I would say he has adjusted enough to American baseball to take up the role he is obviously suited for as Japan's all-time saves leader--CLOSER!

I think everyone needs a session with Lucy after that disaster of a series.
:therapy:

idseer
06-02-2004, 10:46 PM
Originally posted by ChiSox7
You're not serious are you? There are 22 pitchers that have blown just as many if not more saves that Koch. Other than Rivera, Gagne, Hoffman, Wagner and a couple others, most closers ahve an ERA close to 4 if not above. John Smoltz even has two blown saves.

Easy Eddie has three blown saves. Troy Percival has an ERA over five and 4 blown saves.

Percival, Chacon, Biddle, Mantei, Urbina all have a higher ERA than Koch.

Even our beloved Foulke has as many BS as Koch.

Is he awesome? No. Is he dominant? No. Is he solid? Yes, I think so. If the offense scores the team an extra run or two with those FOURTEEN left on, we're not having this convo.

i don't care how many blown saves he has. the man cannot close! he's NOT solid and never has been if you listen to oakland fans who were quite HAPPY to be rid of him! at least in those days he could throw fast. that's gone! a reliever should be throwing strikes ... not run up 3 - 0 counts on the first guy he faces, which it seems you can BET on happening. you leave him as our closer and YOU will be crying by seasons end!

FarWestChicago
06-02-2004, 10:52 PM
Originally posted by idseer
i don't care how many blown saves he has. the man cannot close! he's NOT solid and never has been if you listen to oakland fans who were quite HAPPY to be rid of him! at least in those days he could throw fast. that's gone! a reliever should be throwing strikes ... not run up 3 - 0 counts on the first guy he faces, which it seems you can BET on happening. you leave him as our closer and YOU will be crying by seasons end! Get off the fence, id. Take a stance. :D:

idseer
06-02-2004, 10:54 PM
Originally posted by FarWestChicago
Get off the fence, id. Take a stance. :D:

i guess i'm just too subtle. :smile:

ChiSox7
06-02-2004, 10:55 PM
Originally posted by idseer
i don't care how many blown saves he has. the man cannot close! he's NOT solid and never has been if you listen to oakland fans who were quite HAPPY to be rid of him! at least in those days he could throw fast. that's gone! a reliever should be throwing strikes ... not run up 3 - 0 counts on the first guy he faces, which it seems you can BET on happening. you leave him as our closer and YOU will be crying by seasons end!

You asked me to provide stats, and I provided stats. THere are a lot of closers I would rather have, but I would also take Koch over a lot of other closers.

ode to veeck
06-02-2004, 10:55 PM
Lucy would put mood stabilisers in the water supply for WSI

mantis1212
06-03-2004, 12:34 AM
Originally posted by ChiSox7
You asked me to provide stats, and I provided stats. THere are a lot of closers I would rather have, but I would also take Koch over a lot of other closers.

I really don't have a stat to back it up, but I have a hunch Koch's first batter every appearance has an OBP over .500, maybe close to .600. That is NOT solid. He's all over the place!! There was a stretch there for about 4 games where he beaned the first guy he faced! And today with the wild pitch, there is no end to it...

JRIG
06-03-2004, 12:43 AM
Originally posted by mantis1212
I really don't have a stat to back it up, but I have a hunch Koch's first batter every appearance has an OBP over .500, maybe close to .600. That is NOT solid. He's all over the place!! There was a stretch there for about 4 games where he beaned the first guy he faced! And today with the wild pitch, there is no end to it...

The best I can do is his numbers with none on and nobody out (as in the first batter of an inning). Opponents bat .214/.450/.500 off him this year. So it's near .500.

bennyw41
06-03-2004, 10:36 AM
Originally posted by ChiSox7
Wow. He's blown two saves. You guys are head hunters, just waiting to pounce when he sucks. Why don't you have a poll about them picking it up on offense so we could be up 5 or 6 runs like we should have been today. Offense lost that game, not Koch.


Isn't it the closers job to close games, provided a small lead and a tight game? What does the offense have to do with this? If the offense was better that day, the bum wouldn't have a job.

CubKilla
06-03-2004, 10:43 AM
Originally posted by ChiSox7
You're not serious are you?

Is he awesome? No. Is he dominant? No. Is he solid? Yes, I think so. If the offense scores the team an extra run or two with those FOURTEEN left on, we're not having this convo.

Are you? Please stop scapegoating the offense, who was shut down by a good SP pitcher the majority of the game, and place the blame where it belongs..... on Botch.

Is a blown save never the "closers" fault since the offense obviously didn't score enough runs on that given day?

skottyj242
06-03-2004, 10:45 AM
You people make me sick, it's so easy to pounce on a guy when he's down. I really hope Billy comes to your jobs and rides you and call you a bum when you inevitably screw up.

CubKilla
06-03-2004, 10:48 AM
Originally posted by skottyj242
You people make me sick, it's so easy to pounce on a guy when he's down. I really hope Billy comes to your jobs and rides you and call you a bum when you inevitably screw up.

So do I..... that way I have the opportunity to tell him he's garbage face-to-face :whiner:

soxtalker
06-03-2004, 10:51 AM
I have wanted to see Takatsu in the closer role since early in the season. Having said that, I also think that it might be a mistake to move him there and demote Koch immediately. What I'd like to see is a trade that would recoup the significant value that Koch could command. I know that many of you think that he has little trade value. However, his numbers are pretty good, and he'd be a big upgrade to teams without a closer. We simply have a reasonable alternative in Takatsu. As I said in another thread, Takatsu is not without risk himself. Teams may learn to adjust to his style in the latter part of the season.

idseer
06-03-2004, 11:03 AM
Originally posted by soxtalker
I have wanted to see Takatsu in the closer role since early in the season. Having said that, I also think that it might be a mistake to move him there and demote Koch immediately. What I'd like to see is a trade that would recoup the significant value that Koch could command. I know that many of you think that he has little trade value. However, his numbers are pretty good, and he'd be a big upgrade to teams without a closer. We simply have a reasonable alternative in Takatsu. As I said in another thread, Takatsu is not without risk himself. Teams may learn to adjust to his style in the latter part of the season.

funny ... japanese players never did.

bennyw41
06-03-2004, 11:03 AM
Originally posted by skottyj242
You people make me sick, it's so easy to pounce on a guy when he's down. I really hope Billy comes to your jobs and rides you and call you a bum when you inevitably screw up.

When I make 6 million to do my job wrong, I'll happily listen to anyone telling me what I should do.

mantis1212
06-03-2004, 11:07 AM
Originally posted by skottyj242
You people make me sick, it's so easy to pounce on a guy when he's down. I really hope Billy comes to your jobs and rides you and call you a bum when you inevitably screw up.

If I screwed up as much as him on my job while people were paying to watch me, I'd be history.