PDA

View Full Version : EXCLUSIVE White Sox Trade Talk Info


otis
06-02-2004, 08:26 AM
Haven't posted in a while, but figured people would want to hear this. From what I have been told, the White Sox have targeted their top pitching acquisitions. Their wishlist of top available players include Ben Sheets & CC Sabathia. Unfortunately, the asking price is more than what the Sox would like to part with at this time. According to my source, talks have occurred with both teams and either of these players could be had right now. Ben Sheets is the guy they want to have, but acquiring him would cost Jeremy Reed & Neal Cotts. The price for Sabathia would be a package that included Joe Borchard. Supposedly KW is trying to acquire a pitcher without giving up Reed, Borchard, or anyone from the major league roster. If they decide not to give up either of the top OF prospects, expect Freddy Garcia to be acquired in July. The Sox believe they can beat anyones price without including JB or JR to the Mariners. Also, Ozzie is good friends with Freddy and would prefer him. The most interesting part is that Reinsdorf has approved a modest payroll increase.

sas1974
06-02-2004, 08:29 AM
That's some encouraging news. Thanks for the update!

nasox
06-02-2004, 08:31 AM
I love it when you post otis!

BeerHandle
06-02-2004, 08:33 AM
Originally posted by otis
Haven't posted in a while, but figured people would want to hear this. From what I have been told, the White Sox have targeted their top pitching acquisitions. Their wishlist of top available players include Ben Sheets & CC Sabathia. Unfortunately, the asking price is more than what the Sox would like to part with at this time. According to my source, talks have occurred with both teams and either of these players could be had right now. Ben Sheets is the guy they want to have, but acquiring him would cost Jeremy Reed & Neal Cotts. The price for Sabathia would be a package that included Joe Borchard. Supposedly KW is trying to acquire a pitcher without giving up Reed, Borchard, or anyone from the major league roster. If they decide not to give up either of the top OF prospects, expect Freddy Garcia to be acquired in July. The Sox believe they can beat anyones price without including JB or JR to the Mariners. Also, Ozzie is good friends with Freddy and would prefer him. The most interesting part is that Reinsdorf has approved a modest payroll increase.

Otis - don't you get your information from someone within the BoSox organization? If so, how reliable is the info above?

I thought the Sox were going after Freddy next week because Seattle is going to start to unload for your talent/prospects.

elrod
06-02-2004, 08:34 AM
I can't believe the Indians would trade Sabathia in the division. They are rebuilding and Sabathia has been an anchor in an improving starting staff. Sheets makes more sense because he's due for a raise and Milwaukee doesn't want to pay.

Bobby Thigpen
06-02-2004, 08:37 AM
What are the contract situations for Sheets and Sabathia? Are they both FA after this year?

Of the three- Sheets, Garcia, and Sabathia, I think I would rather have C.C. Young lefty who can bring some heat and is a heck of a pitcher. Even if he doesn't know how to wear a hat. Why is Cleveland giving him up? I thought a couple of years ago he was going to be the centerpiece of their staff for years to come. What's the deal?

otis
06-02-2004, 08:44 AM
My source is a Boston guy. Part of an organizations responsibility is to find out who is available and which players a team may trade. Do you think the White Sox are the only team looking for pitching! Word on the baseball street is that the White Sox offer for Ben Sheets will be tough to beat.

HomerCoach
06-02-2004, 08:50 AM
Originally posted by otis
My source is a Boston guy. Part of an organizations responsibility is to find out who is available and which players a team may trade. Do you think the White Sox are the only team looking for pitching! Word on the baseball street is that the White Sox offer for Ben Sheets will be tough to beat.

Good, Sheets is my choice out of the 3.

nasox
06-02-2004, 08:53 AM
Otis, do you have any aditional info on Maggs and the contract talks? You probably have read the newsday article.

bobj4400
06-02-2004, 08:54 AM
Just a little Sheets info. He missed his start last night, but it doesnt seem to be anything serious...

http://milwaukee.brewers.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mil/news/mil_news.jsp?ymd=20040601&content_id=758659&vkey=news_mil&fext=.jsp

Dadawg_77
06-02-2004, 08:55 AM
Originally posted by Bobby Thigpen
What are the contract situations for Sheets and Sabathia? Are they both FA after this year?

Of the three- Sheets, Garcia, and Sabathia, I think I would rather have C.C. Young lefty who can bring some heat and is a heck of a pitcher. Even if he doesn't know how to wear a hat. Why is Cleveland giving him up? I thought a couple of years ago he was going to be the centerpiece of their staff for years to come. What's the deal?

Sheets is in his fourth year so arbitration will increase his salary the next two, but will remain unless or non tender with the his team. Kenny or who ever trades for him, may try to lock him up for the next three years.

CC is also in his fourth year but is singed for next year at 4.50 million and a option which could vest for 7 million in 2006.

Garica is six year vet and will be a unrestricted free agent at the end of the year.

Dadawg_77
06-02-2004, 08:57 AM
Out of those three names, Sheet is the one I like the best. At age 25 he should start hitting his peak in the next couple of years and is a better strikeout pitcher then the other two.

Bobby Thigpen
06-02-2004, 08:58 AM
Thank you. Still would rather have C.C. as a pitcher, but Sheets may be a better fit economically. Hope KW doesn't give up too much for him if he gets him.

Palehose13
06-02-2004, 09:01 AM
Sheets is my choice of the three two. However, if it happens I know that baseball fans in Milwaukee will be heart broken...they are pretty excited about their team this year.

bobj4400
06-02-2004, 09:04 AM
I would love to get Sheets in here ASAP. We could stick him in front of Garland and we would have a rotation capable of winning the pennant. Give up LTP and Cotts for Sheets and I would be happy. Not only help out the Sox but help out my favorite NL team as well...

firejauron
06-02-2004, 09:04 AM
Originally posted by otis
The most interesting part is that Reinsdorf has approved a modest payroll increase.


I would hope he would approve of a modest payroll increase, seeing that Colon left and we signed nobody to replace him. I know he made a generous offer to Bartolo, but I would expect JR to at least allocate that money towards another player instead of just doing nothing.

Having said that, this is good to hear.

PaleHoseRon
06-02-2004, 09:07 AM
Originally posted by HomerCoach
Good, Sheets is my choice out of the 3.

Having watched Sheets pitch numerous times in person and on television, I can tell you that he is a quality pitcher. He has a good moving fast ball, change up, and uses a huge sweeping curve ball as his out pitch. He, like most other Brewer pitchers, does not get the benefit of any run support when he is on the bump.

He would be a great addition, IMO, to the Sox

BigEdWalsh
06-02-2004, 09:10 AM
I'd like to have Sheets too, but I'd hate to see Reed go. This deal makes me flashback to the Sox letting go Norm Cash.
On the plus side....hmmmm.....no more Danny Wright! Started the season with Danny Wright and end up with Ben Sheets!
OK, I decided this oughta get done.

:)

BeerHandle
06-02-2004, 09:10 AM
Originally posted by PaleHoseRon
Having watched Sheets pitch numerous times in person and on television, I can tell you that he is a quality pitcher. He has a good moving fast ball, change up, and uses a huge sweeping curve ball as his out pitch. He, like most other Brewer pitchers, does not get the benefit of any run support when he is on the bump.

He would be a great addition, IMO, to the Sox

Ben Sheets Scouting Report

2003 Season
On the surface, it didn't seem like Ben Sheets made much improvement in 2003. Most of his numbers were no better than the year before, and his ERA rose by three-tenths of a run. He did show some subtle but significant signs of improvement, however. He worked more efficiently, was a bit less hittable and cut his walks by a significant amount. If it hadn't been for a sore back and a mild case of shoulder tendinitis that contributed to a late slump, his season likely would have been his best yet.

Pitching
Sheets' hard overhand curve and low to mid-90s fastball remain his bread and butter. Early in the year, batters were laying off the curve and sitting on the fastball, which led to a flurry of home runs. In the second half, he began to work in a changeup more often. It helped him get more groundballs and gave him another weapon to use against lefthanded hitters, who had spelled trouble for him in the past. He displayed better command last year, and perhaps as a result of being more economical with his pitches, he was able to maintain effectiveness later into games.

Defense & Hitting
Sheets has a better pickoff move than most righthanders, and he does a fairly good job of slowing the running game overall, though he slipped in that department a bit last year. He does a good job in the field overall. The same can't be said of his hitting-he still goes down on strikes more than half the time and is lucky even to get a bunt down.

2004 Outlook
Sheets is a quality pitcher, something that would be a lot more obvious if he had a stronger team behind him. Even so, he hasn't yet reached his full potential, and he's getting to the age when he should start to put it all together. There's every reason to think he could take a significant step forward in 2004.

PaleHoseRon
06-02-2004, 09:12 AM
Originally posted by Palehose13
Sheets is my choice of the three two. However, if it happens I know that baseball fans in Milwaukee will be heart broken...they are pretty excited about their team this year.

You are exactly right in your statement above. Fans around here are sniffing a .500 ball club and are really looking forward to the next couple of years when the minor league talent will be ready for the bigs.

However, I think it can be sold to the fans based on the success of the Sexson trade. If the Brewers get decent talent in return, I think the fans would accept him being dealt. I am a Sox fan first, Brewers fan second, I would hate to see him go, but if he has to go somewhere...

PaleHoseRon
06-02-2004, 09:14 AM
Originally posted by BeerHandle
Ben Sheets Scouting Report

2003 Season
On the surface, it didn't seem like Ben Sheets made much improvement in 2003. Most of his numbers were no better than the year before, and his ERA rose by three-tenths of a run. He did show some subtle but significant signs of improvement, however. He worked more efficiently, was a bit less hittable and cut his walks by a significant amount. If it hadn't been for a sore back and a mild case of shoulder tendinitis that contributed to a late slump, his season likely would have been his best yet.

Pitching
Sheets' hard overhand curve and low to mid-90s fastball remain his bread and butter. Early in the year, batters were laying off the curve and sitting on the fastball, which led to a flurry of home runs. In the second half, he began to work in a changeup more often. It helped him get more groundballs and gave him another weapon to use against lefthanded hitters, who had spelled trouble for him in the past. He displayed better command last year, and perhaps as a result of being more economical with his pitches, he was able to maintain effectiveness later into games.

Defense & Hitting
Sheets has a better pickoff move than most righthanders, and he does a fairly good job of slowing the running game overall, though he slipped in that department a bit last year. He does a good job in the field overall. The same can't be said of his hitting-he still goes down on strikes more than half the time and is lucky even to get a bunt down.

2004 Outlook
Sheets is a quality pitcher, something that would be a lot more obvious if he had a stronger team behind him. Even so, he hasn't yet reached his full potential, and he's getting to the age when he should start to put it all together. There's every reason to think he could take a significant step forward in 2004.

Isn't that what I said!!!!

Palehose13
06-02-2004, 09:18 AM
Originally posted by PaleHoseRon
You are exactly right in your statement above. Fans around here are sniffing a .500 ball club and are really looking forward to the next couple of years when the minor league talent will be ready for the bigs.

However, I think it can be sold to the fans based on the success of the Sexson trade. If the Brewers get decent talent in return, I think the fans would accept him being dealt. I am a Sox fan first, Brewers fan second, I would hate to see him go, but if he has to go somewhere...

I agree that they can be sold on it, especially because of the success of the Sexson trade so far. Lock up Maggs and I would trade Reed and Cotts for Sheets in a heartbeat. Hell, I might even do it without Magglio locked up. Kenny...DO IT!!!!!

Dadawg_77
06-02-2004, 09:18 AM
Ok lets have some fun here speculating. With out Reed and Borchad come up a group of prospects that you would give up make a hard to beat deal. Try not to include major league talent, but you can if you want.

Dadawg_77
06-02-2004, 09:19 AM
Originally posted by PaleHoseRon
Isn't that what I said!!!!

Yeah but ESPN agrees with you, not sure if that is a good thing :smile:

Frater Perdurabo
06-02-2004, 09:22 AM
Gosh, Sheets looks like a great pitcher but dealing with Doug Melvin could be tough. He has a good eye for young talent. I wonder how firm Melvin is with wanting Reed and Cotts in return. I'm OK with Cotts as part of the package, but I don't want Reed to be dealt. Reed is the insurance in case Maggs is dealt or leaves as a free agent this winter. KW needs to negotiate, negotiate, negotiate.

I wonder to what extent this proposed deal hinges on the contract negotiations with Maggs. That is, if Maggs re-signs, the Sox outfield picture for the future is more settled. But if Maggs leaves and Reed is gone, that leaves Lee, Rowand and prospects like Anderson, LTP and Sweeney down the road. Ouch.

PaleHoseRon
06-02-2004, 09:23 AM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
Yeah but ESPN agrees with you, not sure if that is a good thing :smile:

OUCH!

Win1ForMe
06-02-2004, 09:24 AM
Great info as usual otis.

As far as the pitchers, I know Sheets is having a great year, but I think I'd rather have CC and Garcia (in that order) ahead of him. Maybe it's the fact that he's an NL pitcher or that this his first good year. Another caution on Sheets is that his post All-star break ERA is almost a full point higher than his pre All-star game numbers. I don't consider him a number #1 starter, and certainly wouldn't give up Reed & Cotts to get him.

And for those that have seen him pitch, why has Sheets been so much more effective this year as opposed to his three previous years. Improved mechanics? New pitch? etc.

BeerHandle
06-02-2004, 09:26 AM
Originally posted by PaleHoseRon
Isn't that what I said!!!!

Just adding on to your scouting report.........

Dadawg_77
06-02-2004, 09:27 AM
Originally posted by Win1ForMe
Great info as usual otis.

As far as the pitchers, I know Sheets is having a great year, but I think I'd rather have CC and Garcia (in that order) ahead of him. Maybe it's the fact that he's an NL pitcher or that this his first good year. Another caution on Sheets is that his post All-star break ERA is almost a full point higher than his pre All-star game numbers. I don't consider him a number #1 starter, and certainly wouldn't give up Reed & Cotts to get him.

And for those that have seen him pitch, why has Sheets been so much more effective this year as opposed to his three previous years. Improved mechanics? New pitch? etc.


It being his fourth year, you expect him to get better. If he wasn't you would be concerned. The improvement is most likely from maturation process of a pitcher. Unlike E Lo who needed a new pitch, Sheets is just finishing up his developement.

Palehose13
06-02-2004, 09:29 AM
this his first good year.

I'm not a huge Brewer follower (PHR will know more, I am sure), but IIRC Sheets is the Brewers #1 guy. I remember him being talked up for a few years and even though he hasn't been lights out before, I think he has had decent numbers for a young pitcher on a baaaaaaaad team.

Frater Perdurabo
06-02-2004, 09:30 AM
The problem for me is that Reed is a high OBP guy. Do the Sox have another other high OBP players coming up through the system? Do Anderson and Sweeney project as high OBP guys? OBP is something that the Sox offense desperately needs.

Put Reed in this offense in place of Rowand, with Uribe and Harris at SS and 2B, and all of a sudden this offfense will be unstoppable.

OTOH, with Sheets the rotation will be unstoppable this year, and next year, and 2006. Plus, Sheets is a known quantity, whereas Reed has not done anything at the MLB level.

Then again, Sheets has had his success pitching in the inferior National League. Then again, getting Reed into a Brewers uni means that he will give the Cubs fits for years. :D:

The lack of a stomach to make a decision of this magnitude is why I'm not getting the big bucks to be a big league GM. :o:

PaleHoseRon
06-02-2004, 09:31 AM
Originally posted by Win1ForMe
Great info as usual otis.

As far as the pitchers, I know Sheets is having a great year, but I think I'd rather have CC and Garcia (in that order) ahead of him. Maybe it's the fact that he's an NL pitcher or that this his first good year. Another caution on Sheets is that his post All-star break ERA is almost a full point higher than his pre All-star game numbers. I don't consider him a number #1 starter, and certainly wouldn't give up Reed & Cotts to get him.

And for those that have seen him pitch, why has Sheets been so much more effective this year as opposed to his three previous years. Improved mechanics? New pitch? etc.


Sheets has cut down on his walks dramatically, he has 11 walks in 73 innings pitched. He has also given up 58 hits thus far. Sheets, according to the talking heads, seems to have more confidence in all of his pitches and in the defense behind him. He is not affraid to throw some off-speed junk when behind in the cound versus the past when he tried to blow his fast ball past the batter. A lot of that can be credited to Mike Maddux, brother of Greg, who is the pitching coach in Milwaukee.

jabrch
06-02-2004, 09:32 AM
I'd give up Borchard + Cotts right now for either Sheets or CC, provided Sheets is healthy. I know he is a bit dinged up right now - but I'd surely do it if he was ok.

Garcia, since he is a FA after this year, might be even cheaper.

ode to veeck
06-02-2004, 09:33 AM
Otis,

As much as I DESPISE trade rumor threads (& think they should be banished to the PL), your lead story reads pretty good, from KW holding out on giving up Reed or Borchard or current roster folks, to JR offering a little more blood out of his turnip.

Palehose13
06-02-2004, 09:34 AM
Originally posted by Frater Perdurabo
The problem for me is that Reed is a high OBP guy. Do the Sox have another other high OBP players coming up through the system? Do Anderson and Sweeney project as high OBP guys? OBP is something that the Sox offense desperately needs.

Put Reed in this offense in place of Rowand, with Uribe and Harris at SS and 2B, and all of a sudden this offfense will be unstoppable.

OTOH, with Sheets the rotation will be unstoppable this year, and next year, and 2006. Plus, Sheets is a known quantity, whereas Reed has not done anything at the MLB level.

Then again, Sheets has had his success pitching in the inferior National League. Then again, getting Reed into a Brewers uni means that he will give the Cubs fits for years. :D:

The lack of a stomach to make a decision of this magnitude is why I'm not getting the big bucks to be a big league GM. :o:

I would rather give them Borchard if they will take him, but with what you said about Sheets (especially since he would be here for a few years guaranteed, unlike Garcia) I would consider giving up Reed. I've had it with "can't miss prospects" who end up missing big time. I want to win now. I want to win this year.

PaleHoseRon
06-02-2004, 09:36 AM
Originally posted by Palehose13
I'm not a huge Brewer follower (PHR will know more, I am sure), but IIRC Sheets is the Brewers #1 guy. I remember him being talked up for a few years and even though he hasn't been lights out before, I think he has had decent numbers for a young pitcher on a baaaaaaaad team.

Pretty much, yes. He hasn't received a lot of run support in the past, and was always under the pressure to perform like a #1. After he clinched the USA gold medal, Milwaukee had him paraded around County Stadium, during the last game there, before he even pitched a pitch in a Brewer's uniform! Brewer fans have been pretty desperate for any sign of hope since the '82 series.

CanOfCorn
06-02-2004, 09:41 AM
That's pretty sad for Brewers fans, considering they said Sheets, like Jenkins and Podsednik, was supposed to be an anchor for the team for years.

raul12
06-02-2004, 09:44 AM
Originally posted by PaleHoseRon
Pretty much, yes. He hasn't received a lot of run support in the past, and was always under the pressure to perform like a #1. After he clinched the USA gold medal, Milwaukee had him paraded around Miller Park before he even pitched a pitch! Brewer fans have been pretty desperate for any sign of hope since the '82 series.

Except for his first start of the year, he has been phenomenal. I'm drooling just thinking about it. I'd see if they would bite on Cotts and Borchard, or I'd even throw in another decent prospect b/c Sheets is the real deal. And he's in decent physical shape unlike fat ass sabathia. But if they were hell-bent on Cotts and Reed, I think I'd do it.

I'm starting to love the Brewers as my second team, and I'd hate to see Sheets go, but if it was to the Sox....I think I could stomach it! :D:

Frater Perdurabo
06-02-2004, 09:44 AM
Originally posted by Palehose13
I would rather give them Borchard if they will take him, but with what you said about Sheets (especially since he would be here for a few years guaranteed, unlike Garcia) I would consider giving up Reed. I've had it with "can't miss prospects" who end up missing big time. I want to win now. I want to win this year.

I'm not sure Melvin would take LTP, but I'm basing that on his track record when he was the Rangers GM.

I too want the Sox to "go for the jugular" but not at the expense of the future. Remember, I proposed the hypothetical deal with the devil for 5 straight Sox World Series wins in exchange for another 4 years of Bush. :D: So the Sox have to remain competitive for the long term while still going for it this year.

But I would do LTP and Cotts for Sheets. But will Melvin?

HomerCoach
06-02-2004, 09:48 AM
How about Crede and Rauch for Sheets and a young prospect?

nasox
06-02-2004, 09:49 AM
His contract is a one year dealie, worth 2.425 million, right? Someone verify me on this.

Dadawg_77
06-02-2004, 09:50 AM
Originally posted by nasox
His contract is a one year dealie, worth 2.425 million, right? Someone verify me with this.

yes and no, since he is a fourth year player, Brewer or who ever acquires him can retain his services through arbitration for the next two years.

I would guess his deal was an arbitration deal this year.

bobj4400
06-02-2004, 09:50 AM
Originally posted by HomerCoach
How about Crede and Rauch for Sheets and a young prospect?

Was that supposed to be in Pink? Melvin would laugh KW off the phone.

Bobby Thigpen
06-02-2004, 09:52 AM
How about Cotts, Borchard, and Rauch for Sheets and Posednik.

Frater Perdurabo
06-02-2004, 09:53 AM
Konerko, Valentin, Rauch and Rowand for Sheets. :D:

Frater Perdurabo
06-02-2004, 09:54 AM
Originally posted by Frater Perdurabo
Konerko, Valentin, Rauch and Rowand for Sheets. :D:

Hey, this might not be so far-fetched as Konerko has two RBI doubles in two ABs in Miller Park.

Palehose13
06-02-2004, 09:57 AM
Originally posted by Bobby Thigpen
How about Cotts, Borchard, and Rauch for Sheets and Posednik.

Oh man...I want what you are smoking. No...I want you to give Melvin what ou are smoking so he will make that deal!!!

Bobby Thigpen
06-02-2004, 10:00 AM
Oh man...I want what you are smoking. No...I want you to give Melvin what ou are smoking so he will make that deal!!!

I'll even throw in Wunsch, Jaimie Burke, and Warren Newsome.

bobj4400
06-02-2004, 10:02 AM
Originally posted by Bobby Thigpen
I'll even throw in Warren Newsome.

You cant get rid of The Deacon!!!

PaleHoseRon
06-02-2004, 10:13 AM
Originally posted by Bobby Thigpen
I'll even throw in Wunsch, Jaimie Burke, and Warren Newsome.

Wunsch was the Brewers #1 draft choice in 1993!

soltrain21
06-02-2004, 10:16 AM
These talks definitely came out of nowhere, but I would do all of this in a heartbeat.


The time to win for us is now, and it seems like our prospects never work out anyway. I would definitely want Sheets out of the pickings, though.

Mickster
06-02-2004, 10:22 AM
My only fear with Sheets would be 3 lefties in the starting rotation. Does that concern anyone at all?

kittle42
06-02-2004, 10:23 AM
Originally posted by HomerCoach
How about Crede and Rauch for Sheets and a young prospect?

See I'm gonna be nice this time and explain without trying to make fun.

Milwaukee reportedly wants Jeremy Reed -our top minor league prospect and one of the best prospects in the country - and Neal Cotts, whom many believe has a bright future as a starting LHP. This is in exchange for Ben Sheets, their best player.

Now Milwaukee likley considers this proposal "fair."

Let's examine your proposal:

Crede and Rauch for Sheets.

Rauch does not have nearly the promise that Cotts has, and Crede, though he has "potential," plays 3B, a spot where the Brewers have someone who they may feel has equal potential in Keith Ginter.

As you can see, the Brewers would likely not consider this second offer to be very "fair."

Thank you.

mdep524
06-02-2004, 10:23 AM
Wow, great news! Thanks otis. Does anybody else get excited just knowing our GM is out there looking at everything he possibly can and agressively trying to improve this team? I do.

soxtalker
06-02-2004, 10:23 AM
Originally posted by soltrain21
These talks definitely came out of nowhere, but I would do all of this in a heartbeat.


The time to win for us is now, and it seems like our prospects never work out anyway. I would definitely want Sheets out of the pickings, though.

We've had some trouble over the past few years with prospects, but that doesn't mean we should be willing to give up our top ones now. Schueler had a philosophy of drafting primarily pitching prospects, based (I believe) on the assumption that they would be in highest demand and could be used as currency to trade for position players. Unfortunately, a lot of those ended up with arm problems (and he may have chosen unwisely to start). If we go back further we obtained a number of top players through our system (e.g., Thomas, Ventura, Maggs).

PaleHoseRon
06-02-2004, 10:25 AM
Originally posted by Mickster
My only fear with Sheets would be 3 lefties in the starting rotation. Does that concern anyone at all?

Ben Sheets is a righty.

Mickster
06-02-2004, 10:27 AM
Originally posted by PaleHoseRon
Ben Sheets is a righty.

Thanks... :smile:

mcfish
06-02-2004, 10:30 AM
Originally posted by Mickster
My only fear with Sheets would be 3 lefties in the starting rotation. Does that concern anyone at all?

Either way it's better than the 2 righties and 2 lefties we have in the rotation now.

Jjav829
06-02-2004, 10:37 AM
I'd obviously take either one, but I would be shocked if the Indians traded Sabathia to someone in their own division. They are trying to make themselves contenders as soon as possible. Trading their ace to a team they contend with and play 19 times a year only hurts their chances of winning the division soon.

Baby Fisk
06-02-2004, 11:00 AM
Originally posted by Palehose13
I would rather give them Borchard if they will take him, but with what you said about Sheets (especially since he would be here for a few years guaranteed, unlike Garcia) I would consider giving up Reed. I've had it with "can't miss prospects" who end up missing big time. I want to win now. I want to win this year.

PH13 hit the nail on the head here.
We want a World Series, Kenny -- DO IT, DO IT!

koch master 2
06-02-2004, 11:08 AM
I prefer Sheets over Garcia. Sheets is a proven pitcher at home and AWAY. That is something Garcia can't say.

HomerCoach
06-02-2004, 11:08 AM
Originally posted by kittle42
See I'm gonna be nice this time and explain without trying to make fun.

Milwaukee reportedly wants Jeremy Reed -our top minor league prospect and one of the best prospects in the country - and Neal Cotts, whom many believe has a bright future as a starting LHP. This is in exchange for Ben Sheets, their best player.

Now Milwaukee likley considers this proposal "fair."

Let's examine your proposal:

Crede and Rauch for Sheets.

Rauch does not have nearly the promise that Cotts has, and Crede, though he has "potential," plays 3B, a spot where the Brewers have someone who they may feel has equal potential in Keith Ginter.

As you can see, the Brewers would likely not consider this second offer to be very "fair."

Thank you.

Thank you Almighty, for being so gentle to this mere mortal.
:bart

CubKilla
06-02-2004, 11:13 AM
Originally posted by BeerHandle
Ben Sheets Scouting Report

2003 Season
On the surface, it didn't seem like Ben Sheets made much improvement in 2003. Most of his numbers were no better than the year before, and his ERA rose by three-tenths of a run. He did show some subtle but significant signs of improvement, however. He worked more efficiently, was a bit less hittable and cut his walks by a significant amount. If it hadn't been for a sore back and a mild case of shoulder tendinitis that contributed to a late slump, his season likely would have been his best yet.

Pitching
Sheets' hard overhand curve and low to mid-90s fastball remain his bread and butter. Early in the year, batters were laying off the curve and sitting on the fastball, which led to a flurry of home runs. In the second half, he began to work in a changeup more often. It helped him get more groundballs and gave him another weapon to use against lefthanded hitters, who had spelled trouble for him in the past. He displayed better command last year, and perhaps as a result of being more economical with his pitches, he was able to maintain effectiveness later into games.

Defense & Hitting
Sheets has a better pickoff move than most righthanders, and he does a fairly good job of slowing the running game overall, though he slipped in that department a bit last year. He does a good job in the field overall. The same can't be said of his hitting-he still goes down on strikes more than half the time and is lucky even to get a bunt down.

2004 Outlook
Sheets is a quality pitcher, something that would be a lot more obvious if he had a stronger team behind him. Even so, he hasn't yet reached his full potential, and he's getting to the age when he should start to put it all together. There's every reason to think he could take a significant step forward in 2004.

You forgot the part about Sheets being a straight-up CubKilla :)

PaleHoseRon
06-02-2004, 11:16 AM
Originally posted by CubKilla
You forgot the part about Sheets being a straight-up CubKilla :)

That would just be the icing on the cake!!

Iwritecode
06-02-2004, 11:24 AM
Originally posted by Mickster
My only fear with Sheets would be 3 lefties in the starting rotation. Does that concern anyone at all?


Originally posted by PaleHoseRon
Ben Sheets is a righty.

It must have been a typo. You obviously meant to say Sabathia right Mickster?

:)

jabrch
06-02-2004, 11:27 AM
Originally posted by Mickster
My only fear with Sheets would be 3 lefties in the starting rotation. Does that concern anyone at all?

I'd much rather have 3 lefties and 2 righties than have 2 righties, 2 lefties and a big steaming pile of dogcrap.

Palehose13
06-02-2004, 11:30 AM
Originally posted by jabrch
I'd much rather have 3 lefties and 2 righties than have 2 righties, 2 lefties and a big steaming pile of dogcrap.

C'mon jabrch, we have put 4 piles of steaming dogcrap out there! :D:

skottyj242
06-02-2004, 11:52 AM
Doesn't Ben Sheets have dizzy spells? He screwed me by not pitching last night (Fantasy League).

habibharu
06-02-2004, 12:08 PM
i would do reed and cotts for sheets. this guy looks like a star in the making. if you saw that 18 K performance he had against the braves you know what I am talking about. also we have plenty of OF prospects, borchard, sweeney, anderson, etc.

pearso66
06-02-2004, 12:10 PM
Id take either of Sheets or CC. Both are good players, and it would take CC out of our conference and we wouldnt have to face him. Heck, why not get both then we can go with a 6 man rotation or put SS in the pen

maurice
06-02-2004, 12:11 PM
Thanks for yet another scoop, otis. This is wonderful news.

Mickster
06-02-2004, 12:51 PM
Otis,

Any idea on the timetable of these possible trades???

Mohoney
06-02-2004, 12:53 PM
Originally posted by Bobby Thigpen
I'll even throw in Wunsch, Jaimie Burke, and Warren Newsome.

Was Deacon's name Newsome or Newson?

pearso66
06-02-2004, 12:55 PM
I could have sworn it was Newson. Boy I loved that guy, lol Maybe we can trade him for Garcia and Rafeal Soriano, I mean he is our junk parts, or I should say, was

OEO Magglio
06-02-2004, 01:56 PM
Originally posted by habibharu
i would do reed and cotts for sheets. this guy looks like a star in the making. if you saw that 18 K performance he had against the braves you know what I am talking about. also we have plenty of OF prospects, borchard, sweeney, anderson, etc.
Ditto, if you could get sheets or sabathia I'd more then willingly part with reed or borchard.

MRKARNO
06-02-2004, 01:59 PM
Originally posted by OEO Magglio
Ditto, if you could get sheets or sabathia I'd more then willingly part with reed or borchard.

I think as long as we can keep one or the other that we're in good shape. It might be a better idea to trade Reed because he's not going to replace Maggs' power under any conditions and Borchard is. Obviosuly if we didnt have to trade either one that would be best, but both Sheets and CC are legit though I like Sheets better. If we drafted Symanski in the draft, we might be smart to trade one of Sweeney or Anderson in exchange for Sheets or CC.

The part I really like is it seems that we're almost a lock for Garcia, but KW is aiming even higher than that.

OEO Magglio
06-02-2004, 02:03 PM
Originally posted by MRKARNO
I think as long as we can keep one or the other that we're in good shape. It might be a better idea to trade Reed because he's not going to replace Maggs' power under any conditions and Borchard is. Obviosuly if we didnt have to trade either one that would be best, but both Sheets and CC are legit though I like Sheets better. If we drafted Symanski in the draft, we might be smart to trade one of Sweeney or Anderson in exchange for Sheets or CC.

The part I really like is it seems that we're almost a lock for Garcia, but KW is aiming even higher than that.
Well said. I really didn't even think about the draft and symanski but he would definitely be a possibility if the sox were to trade reed or borchard. I'm with you I'd love to have sheets more then anyone but I'd love cc or freddy also. Could you imagine:
sheets
buehrle
loaiza
garland
shoney

:hawk
Mercy!

samram
06-02-2004, 02:05 PM
The only thing is that KW has to move pretty quickly if he wants these guys for the current offers. I know someone said earlier in the thread that the offer for Sheets couldn't be beat, but that doesn't stop the Brewers from increasing the price as time goes on, especially if the Sox have a few more bad starts out of the fifth spot. As time goes on, the offers for Garcia and Sabbathia will also increase, so I think KW has to be thinking he should get something done before he does have to deal Reed or Borchard or major leaguers.

CWSGuy406
06-02-2004, 02:18 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
I'd give up Borchard + Cotts right now for either Sheets or CC, provided Sheets is healthy. I know he is a bit dinged up right now - but I'd surely do it if he was ok.

Garcia, since he is a FA after this year, might be even cheaper.

Same with me. I pose the question to you guys, who would you rather give up, Borchard or Reed? A lot of people will probably say Reed, but IMO Borchard still has a very high ceiling if he can get his stuff together.

I'd rather hold onto Reed, like it has been said earlier in this thread, Reed is a high OBP guy, and we have a lot of power already on the big club. We need a guy who can get on base.

If all Milwaukee is asking for is Cotts and Borchard, I'd do it... Same goes for Cleveland and CC.

StepsInSC
06-02-2004, 02:21 PM
Originally posted by MRKARNO
I think as long as we can keep one or the other that we're in good shape. It might be a better idea to trade Reed because he's not going to replace Maggs' power under any conditions and Borchard is.

I'd rather keep Reed than Borchard if somehow possible, power can be acquired at almost any point in a career. Patience and discipline on the other hand...

MRKARNO
06-02-2004, 02:23 PM
Originally posted by OEO Magglio
Well said. I really didn't even think about the draft and symanski but he would definitely be a possibility if the sox were to trade reed or borchard. I'm with you I'd love to have sheets more then anyone but I'd love cc or freddy also. Could you imagine:
sheets
buehrle
loaiza
garland
shoney

:hawk
Mercy!

I wasnt even thinking of trading Reed or Bochard, but if Symanski were to fall to us then we need to draft him. Reed, Borchard, Sweeney and Anderson have too much trade value to make four otufielders untouchable especially when until 2006 or 2007 we're got left field covered.

BA has Symansky as the 18th best prospect in the draft and that's exactly where we're drafting. If we drafted a pitcher it would be tougher for us to trade one of the four outfielders, but we could still do it somewhat comfortably. You gotta give up talent to get talent such as Sheets or Sabathia. If we can get one for less, that's awesome, but it's unlikely.

The easiest situation is that we sign Maggs long-term in a week or less and are able to comfortably trade one of the four OFers for Sheets with Cotts and we bring up Wunsch.

CWSGuy406
06-02-2004, 02:30 PM
I'd rather have Cotts included in on a deal for CC Sabathia, because Sabathia would basically replace Cotts as a future lefty in the rotation. Plus, Sabathia and Buerhle are two totally different lefty pitchers. Not to mention how lefties do in Yankee Stadium (Sorry for looking ahead).

I want to win now, but I really hope that we don't give up Reed. I'd much rather it be Borchard, and I'm a huge Joe Borchard fan. We already have enough power in our lineup - Reed will fit nicely into that two hole in a year. Right before Thomas (and hopefully Maggs), Reed has a high floor IMO.

Palehose13
06-02-2004, 02:36 PM
I would also prefer to trade Borchard, but if they won't do it unless it is Reed...bye bye Jeremy...

rahulsekhar
06-02-2004, 02:39 PM
Pipedream time.....

Sox deal Borchard+Wing/Meaux for Sheets.....Go to the playoffs and make it to the ALCS, losing to the Yanks in 6 well played games.

Having seen an attendance boost, Sox JR boosts payroll and....

Sox let go Valentin, Koch, Maggs (net decrease = $25mil)
Sox resign Loaiza ($5mil), add Sheets $$$($3mil), sign a closer ($3mil).
Other salary increases total $4mil)

Sox sign Beltran for $16mil

Total net payroll increase = $6mil

Rotation: Sheets, Buehrle, Loaiza, Garland, Shoeneweis
Batting order: Harris(2B)-Uribe(SS)-Beltran(CF)-Thomas(DH)-Lee(LF)-Konerko(1B)-Reed(RF)-Olivo(C)-Crede(3B)

Sox go on to win the 2005WS (Trib headline: Cubs look to get back to playoffs in 2006, Sox win 4th game of 7 game series -see p.2 for details)

They then lose Konerko (or resign him at a lower rate), move Lee to 1B, and call up Sweeney/Anderson to play LF.

jabrch
06-02-2004, 02:41 PM
Given that Ordonez is now going to need surgery, lets put an end to the talk of trading him - as well as Reed/Borchard for a bit. Let's bring Joe up to the bigs and see how he can play if given the ABs.

rahulsekhar
06-02-2004, 03:12 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
Given that Ordonez is now going to need surgery, lets put an end to the talk of trading him - as well as Reed/Borchard for a bit. Let's bring Joe up to the bigs and see how he can play if given the ABs.

Bring up one of the 2 and depending on how they do - could enhance the chances of dealing the other....

Or it could give us an even more valuable trading chip when Maggs comes back.

Or it could totally devalue whoever we bring up if they flop completely (wouldn't that be Sox luck!).

fquaye149
06-02-2004, 03:41 PM
Originally posted by rahulsekhar
Pipedream time.....

Sox deal Borchard+Wing/Meaux for Sheets.....Go to the playoffs and make it to the ALCS, losing to the Yanks in 6 well played games.

Having seen an attendance boost, Sox JR boosts payroll and....

Sox let go Valentin, Koch, Maggs (net decrease = $25mil)
Sox resign Loaiza ($5mil), add Sheets $$$($3mil), sign a closer ($3mil).
Other salary increases total $4mil)

Sox sign Beltran for $16mil

Total net payroll increase = $6mil

Rotation: Sheets, Buehrle, Loaiza, Garland, Shoeneweis
Batting order: Harris(2B)-Uribe(SS)-Beltran(CF)-Thomas(DH)-Lee(LF)-Konerko(1B)-Reed(RF)-Olivo(C)-Crede(3B)

Sox go on to win the 2005WS (Trib headline: Cubs look to get back to playoffs in 2006, Sox win 4th game of 7 game series -see p.2 for details)

They then lose Konerko (or resign him at a lower rate), move Lee to 1B, and call up Sweeney/Anderson to play LF.

look at beltran's current numbers now that he's finally come down to earth and please please tell me you'd rather have him than maggs + cash. i would love to hear that

rahulsekhar
06-02-2004, 03:58 PM
Originally posted by fquaye149
look at beltran's current numbers now that he's finally come down to earth and please please tell me you'd rather have him than maggs + cash. i would love to hear that

He's come back, but still gives us a pretty excellent, switch-hitting CF who IMO would perform better in Chicago with the offensive talent we have than in KC (they have some talent, but not like ours).

But I could go either way - Reed in CF+Maggs or Reed in RF+Beltran. The question is how much more will Carlos cost than Maggs. I still think at the same $$$ I take Beltran.

A. Cavatica
06-02-2004, 05:07 PM
Originally posted by ode to veeck
As much as I DESPISE trade rumor threads (& think they should be banished to the PL

What's left to talk about? I like nothing better, assuming they have some basis in fact.

gogosoxgogo
06-02-2004, 05:56 PM
I'd be shocked if Cleveland gave up on CC. If they do however, he is definately my choice of the three. Between Garcia and Sheets, I would love to have either and realyl don't have a preference. I'll take whoever comes cheaper. I really do not want to trade Reed. I'll gladly trade Borchard and a class B prospect for either one (ie. not one of our top prospects).

WHarris13
06-02-2004, 07:02 PM
Oh god! Please give me Sheets! That would be so amazingly awesome.

hold2dibber
06-02-2004, 07:26 PM
Originally posted by gogosoxgogo
I'll take whoever comes cheaper. I really do not want to trade Reed. I'll gladly trade Borchard and a class B prospect for either one (ie. not one of our top prospects).

No way in hell Borchard plus a "class B" prospect is enough to net either Sheets or Sabathia. Would be enough to get Garcia, though, IMHO.

RedPinStripes
06-02-2004, 08:01 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
No way in hell Borchard plus a "class B" prospect is enough to net either Sheets or Sabathia. Would be enough to get Garcia, though, IMHO.

If Cotts and Reed is all that it will take, hell I'll drive them to the bus stop. Cotts and Reed have great "potential" . Sheets has already shown results.

SoxBoy14
06-02-2004, 08:07 PM
Since that Beltran trade isn't looking good I hope this trade is gonna happen. If the Sox got Sheets all would be right in the world!

TaylorStSox
06-02-2004, 08:15 PM
I'd give up Reed for Sheets but not Sabathia. I'd rather give up Reed than Borchard.

idseer
06-02-2004, 08:39 PM
just what is the fascination with ben sheets? the guy has had 3 crappy seasons and has seen a little success in a very short period this season.

i thought we wanted a proven starter! ben sheets is NOT a proven starter. is everyone just assuming he's going to become some kind of star? how does anyone know he's not another todd ritchie?

illinibk
06-02-2004, 08:40 PM
I might as well say it. Why would the Brwers trade their only real pitcher for an outfield prospect (which they have a couple in AA and AAA). With the future looking up for the Brewers, I find it very hard to believe they will trade away one of their cornerstones. While the Sexson trade worked out, that was because they got a lot of position players. It is obvious the Brewers need some pitching help right now as well. What good does trading away their best pitcher and supposed staple of their pitching staff for years to come help the Brewers?

OEO Magglio
06-02-2004, 08:40 PM
Originally posted by idseer
just what is the fascination with ben sheets? the guy has had 3 crappy seasons and has seen a little success in a very short period this season.

i thought we wanted a proven starter! ben sheets is NOT a proven starter. is everyone just assuming he's going to become some kind of star? how does anyone know he's not another todd ritchie?
His seasons weren't crappy they just weren't great. The guy has great stuff and has finally learned to throw his pitches for strikes and he's 25 years old he's a stud and would be awesome here for the next couple of years.

idseer
06-02-2004, 08:50 PM
Originally posted by OEO Magglio
His seasons weren't crappy they just weren't great. The guy has great stuff and has finally learned to throw his pitches for strikes and he's 25 years old he's a stud and would be awesome here for the next couple of years.

practically the same thing can be said for benson, yet most posters i see don't want him. great stuff? 25 years old? stud? how many losers have i heard those descriptions made about?

hey, time will tell. far be it for me to say sheets will never amount to much. i flat don't know. i just don't like seeing us talking about filling a really important spot with just another question mark! you all say you want a proven pitcher in our lineup? well, sheets ISN'T proven. let's go after someone who IS.

TaylorStSox
06-02-2004, 08:57 PM
Originally posted by idseer
practically the same thing can be said for benson, yet most posters i see don't want him. great stuff? 25 years old? stud? how many losers have i heard those descriptions made about?

hey, time will tell. far be it for me to say sheets will never amount to much. i flat don't know. i just don't like seeing us talking about filling a really important spot with just another question mark! you all say you want a proven pitcher in our lineup? well, sheets ISN'T proven. let's go after someone who IS.

You can't compare Benson with Sheets due to injuries.

WSox8404
06-02-2004, 09:05 PM
Ben Sheets would help but hell, why are we giving up on gettign Garcia. He seems to be the best out of the three based on proven stuff. The other two are good, but they haven't been good for very long. I want the proven one, and Garcia is the most proven by far.

fquaye149
06-02-2004, 09:19 PM
Originally posted by WSox8404
Ben Sheets would help but hell, why are we giving up on gettign Garcia. He seems to be the best out of the three based on proven stuff. The other two are good, but they haven't been good for very long. I want the proven one, and Garcia is the most proven by far.


here's why i favor sabathia and sheets over garcia:

a.) garcia pitches in one of the best pitching parks in baseball as opposed to sheets and sabathia who do not - last year garcia's away era was 4.59

b.) garcia's success came in 2001 when the mariners won 110 games, since then he has posted era's in the mid 4's and last year and as the mariners have deteriorated as a team his won/loss has followed.

c.)sheets and sabathia have hoisted the brewers and indians onto their backs which accounts for their less than stunning stats. Sheets has been plagued with a bad bullpen and as a result has pitched over 200 innings the past two years. That may scream injury risk, but I don't think that's the case. Rather I think it suggests that with a better bullpen and run support he will be able to be more effective. the same can be said about sabathia.

Win1ForMe
06-02-2004, 09:40 PM
You know, given our atrocious performance today, I'd rather make a bigger trade with the M's and include fat Eddie, even if it means giving up either Reed or Borchard.

Lip Man 1
06-02-2004, 09:57 PM
Folks:

There's a joker now involved in all this. Whitesox.com in a story by Scott Merkin says if Maggs has surgery he could be out 'four to seven weeks.'

The Sox may be looking for a left handed hitter since I don't think Rowand, Timo and Gload can make up for him.

Lip

idseer
06-02-2004, 10:01 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Folks:

There's a joker now involved in all this. Whitesox.com in a story by Scott Merkin says if Maggs has surgery he could be out 'four to seven weeks.'

The Sox may be looking for a left handed hitter since I don't think Rowand, Timo and Gload can make up for him.

Lip

not many will be able to make up for magglio. i'm afraid it would be very expensive to try ...

there goes that 5th starter. :(:

DickAllen72
06-02-2004, 10:14 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Folks:

There's a joker now involved in all this. Whitesox.com in a story by Scott Merkin says if Maggs has surgery he could be out 'four to seven weeks.'

The Sox may be looking for a left handed hitter since I don't think Rowand, Timo and Gload can make up for him.

Lip

Welcome back, Carl Everett!

MRKARNO
06-02-2004, 11:03 PM
Sheets is a franchise pitcher. He's the type that you definately want on your team. He has great stuff and he's finally figured it out this year. He's getting the K's (as evidenced by the 18 K game against Atlanta and his averaging better than a strikeout per inning 9.49) and he also has great control (7 K/BB, 1.36 BB/9). His WHIP is 0.95 and his batting average against is .214. He's been totally dominant this year. He has not allowed more than three earned in any start this year.

His home/road splits are misleading (2.09 Home ERA 4.22 Road ERA) because his road starts have been at Pittsburgh, Houston, St. Louis and Cincinatti and even still they aren't that bad. Pretty much except for the one shaky outing in STL to start the year (3.1 IP 3 ER) he's been pretty solid the whole year.

This guy isn't just going to be a good pitcher, but a great pitcher. If Milwaukee want to give him to us for Reed and Cotts, I say do it immeadiately.

Sabathia's pretty good too, but not as good. He's been consistantly good over the past two years, but has only actually exceeded 200 innings once before (not good based on how Ozzie wants to pitch his pitchers). He has decent K/9 Rates, but nothing special like Sheets (6.50ish). His stuff is pretty good too, but he doesnt nearly have the control that Sheets does. At this point of the year Sabathia has more than twice as many walks as Sheets (24 compared to 11). Over the course of his young career he's walked a lot of batter but that could be expected to decrease.

Sabathia has been far less consistant. In two straight outings he has given up 6 runs or more and he gave up four on another occasion this year. He was about as inconsistant last year but still pretty good.

I'll be pretty damn happy with either of the two however. It does seem more likely that we'd get Sheets because he's not in our division. The advantage both of them have over Garcia is that they would be part of our club for more than this year. Either one would likely be here two additional years beyond 2004. But it sounds like that if either of these fall apart we're a lock for Freddy and that's even better news

beckett21
06-02-2004, 11:13 PM
Originally posted by MRKARNO

This guy isn't just going to be a good pitcher, but a great pitcher. If Milwaukee want to give him to us for Reed and Cotts, I say do it immeadiately.

Yup.

I haven't wanted to comment on this one because it just sounds too good to be true. Sheets could easily be the franchise pitcher we have all longed for. I don't think that is premature to say either. Man, I have been pushing Freddy Garcia all the way, but if Sheets is in the picture, wow. No brainer.

Sounds too good to be true, but then again, who's to say? For all the potential of Reed, staff aces in the mold of Roger Clemens come about as often as Haley's Comet. He's gonna price himself out of Milwaukee, so who knows?

That would be quite a coup.

A. Cavatica
06-02-2004, 11:27 PM
Originally posted by DickAllen72
Welcome back, Carl Everett!

Carl Everett couldn't make up for Rowand, Timo, and Gload.

batmanZoSo
06-02-2004, 11:33 PM
Originally posted by Palehose13
I would also prefer to trade Borchard, but if they won't do it unless it is Reed...bye bye Jeremy...

No way. None of those pitchers are worth Jeremy Reed. He's a once in a long time kind of prospect. If he doesn't succeed we might as well stop drafting people.

batmanZoSo
06-02-2004, 11:38 PM
Originally posted by MRKARNO
Sheets is a franchise pitcher. He's the type that you definately want on your team. He has great stuff and he's finally figured it out this year. He's getting the K's (as evidenced by the 18 K game against Atlanta and his averaging better than a strikeout per inning 9.49) and he also has great control (7 K/BB, 1.36 BB/9). His WHIP is 0.95 and his batting average against is .214. He's been totally dominant this year. He has not allowed more than three earned in any start this year.

His home/road splits are misleading (2.09 Home ERA 4.22 Road ERA) because his road starts have been at Pittsburgh, Houston, St. Louis and Cincinatti and even still they aren't that bad. Pretty much except for the one shaky outing in STL to start the year (3.1 IP 3 ER) he's been pretty solid the whole year.

This guy isn't just going to be a good pitcher, but a great pitcher. If Milwaukee want to give him to us for Reed and Cotts, I say do it immeadiately.

Sabathia's pretty good too, but not as good. He's been consistantly good over the past two years, but has only actually exceeded 200 innings once before (not good based on how Ozzie wants to pitch his pitchers). He has decent K/9 Rates, but nothing special like Sheets (6.50ish). His stuff is pretty good too, but he doesnt nearly have the control that Sheets does. At this point of the year Sabathia has more than twice as many walks as Sheets (24 compared to 11). Over the course of his young career he's walked a lot of batter but that could be expected to decrease.

Sabathia has been far less consistant. In two straight outings he has given up 6 runs or more and he gave up four on another occasion this year. He was about as inconsistant last year but still pretty good.

I'll be pretty damn happy with either of the two however. It does seem more likely that we'd get Sheets because he's not in our division. The advantage both of them have over Garcia is that they would be part of our club for more than this year. Either one would likely be here two additional years beyond 2004. But it sounds like that if either of these fall apart we're a lock for Freddy and that's even better news

I hope we don't get Sabathia in the interest of the game. What kind of crap is that, trading your best pitcher to your main division rival? I'm starting to think baseball is more about money than anything else...

beckett21
06-02-2004, 11:42 PM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo
I'm starting to think baseball is more about money than anything else...

Ahhhhh, the innocence of youth......

It's ALL about the Benjamins, don't ever think that it isn't.

Sad but true.

Or was that so blatantly sarcastic no teal was needed?

pearso66
06-02-2004, 11:46 PM
I've said it before, but I'll take Sheets or Sabathia. Sabathia is younger, 23 while Sheets is 25, and it also takes away a guy we might see 5-6 times a season. But I think he's an injury risk, but I think Sheets could be too, as they both throw hard stuff, and I think Lefties are more susceptable to injuries. Anyone remember that Saunders guy from TB who broke his arm not once but twice by throwing a pitch?

batmanZoSo
06-02-2004, 11:48 PM
Originally posted by beckett21
Ahhhhh, the innocence of youth......

It's ALL about the Benjamins, don't ever think that it isn't.

Sad but true.

Or was that so blatantly sarcastic no teal was needed?

The latter :cool:

MRKARNO
06-02-2004, 11:48 PM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo
No way. None of those pitchers are worth Jeremy Reed. He's a once in a long time kind of prospect. If he doesn't succeed we might as well stop drafting people.

I strongly dissagree. Reed is a special player but so is Sheets. Reed might be a sure thing, but he might only turn out to be a Mark Kotsay type, which is good but not great. We have other outfield prospects who are pretty darn good too. Sheets is a special pitcher who doesnt come around very often. I can't tell you how good our future looks if we have the young rotation of Sheets, Buehrle and Garland. It would make us a force to be reckoned with in the AL every single year and could turn us into the dominant team in this division for years to come if we were able to keep them together beyond 2006.

Reed projects as a good 2 hitter or leadoff man, but if Harris and Uribe are doing the job then we dont need a high average low power guy like Reed in the Outfield. Borchard would probably help this team more in the long run than Reed if they both do what they're capable of respectively. Plus we have Anderson and Sweeney in W-S who could both step in probably by the start of the 2006 season.

Just to get a sense of how much I like Sheets I wouldnt hesitate trading Maggs for Sheets if it came down to that (which it wouldn't bc the Brewers dont want to take on any of his contract or any other contract).

beckett21
06-02-2004, 11:52 PM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo
The latter :cool:

I figured....you had me worried for a brief second.....

:)

doublem23
06-02-2004, 11:54 PM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo
No way. None of those pitchers are worth Jeremy Reed. He's a once in a long time kind of prospect. If he doesn't succeed we might as well stop drafting people.

A couple years ago, no pitcher was worth Joe Borchard. And before that, I remember when James Baldwin was some amazing guy. Remember Corwin Malone?

Reed probably will pan out and have a nice, long MLB career. But if that's what it takes to get a franchise pitcher... Enjoy Milwaukee, Jeremy.

beckett21
06-02-2004, 11:54 PM
Originally posted by MRKARNO
I strongly dissagree. Reed is a special player but so is Sheets. Reed might be a sure thing, but he might only turn out to be a Mark Kotsay type, which is good but not great. We have other outfield prospects who are pretty darn good too. Sheets is a special pitcher who doesnt come around very often. I can't tell you how good our future looks if we have the young rotation of Sheets, Buehrle and Garland. It would make us a force to be reckoned with in the AL every single year and could turn us into the dominant team in this division for years to come if we were able to keep them together beyond 2006.

Reed projects as a good 2 hitter or leadoff man, but if Harris and Uribe are doing the job then we dont need a high average low power guy like Reed in the Outfield. Borchard would probably help this team more in the long run than Reed if they both do what they're capable of respectively. Plus we have Anderson and Sweeney in W-S who could both step in probably by the start of the 2006 season.

Just to get a sense of how much I like Sheets I wouldnt hesitate trading Maggs for Sheets if it came down to that (which it wouldn't bc the Brewers dont want to take on any of his contract or any other contract).

Got to agree with you here. Excellent points. We have plenty of OF depth, but guys like Sheets are rare indeed.

I'd love to have my cake and eat it too, but if I had to choose it's Sheets in a walk. Not even close in my book.

batmanZoSo
06-02-2004, 11:59 PM
Originally posted by MRKARNO
I strongly dissagree. Reed is a special player but so is Sheets. Reed might be a sure thing, but he might only turn out to be a Mark Kotsay type, which is good but not great. We have other outfield prospects who are pretty darn good too. Sheets is a special pitcher who doesnt come around very often. I can't tell you how good our future looks if we have the young rotation of Sheets, Buehrle and Garland. It would make us a force to be reckoned with in the AL every single year and could turn us into the dominant team in this division for years to come if we were able to keep them together beyond 2006.

Reed projects as a good 2 hitter or leadoff man, but if Harris and Uribe are doing the job then we dont need a high average low power guy like Reed in the Outfield. Borchard would probably help this team more in the long run than Reed if they both do what they're capable of respectively. Plus we have Anderson and Sweeney in W-S who could both step in probably by the start of the 2006 season.

Just to get a sense of how much I like Sheets I wouldnt hesitate trading Maggs for Sheets if it came down to that (which it wouldn't bc the Brewers dont want to take on any of his contract or any other contract).

I doubt KW would trade Reed anyway and as I gathered, the info given in this thread says the same. Ben Sheets to me isn't a guy you give up anyone to get. His stats are anything but impressive. He may be having a good year this year but I don't fully trust him. I would certainly give up Borchard and a few others, but no Reed, Sweeney or Anderson that's for sure IMO.

MRKARNO
06-03-2004, 12:11 AM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo
I doubt KW would trade Reed anyway and as I gathered, the info given in this thread says the same. Ben Sheets to me isn't a guy you give up anyone to get. His stats are anything but impressive. He may be having a good year this year but I don't fully trust him. I would certainly give up Borchard and a few others, but no Reed, Sweeney or Anderson that's for sure IMO.

Well with the stuff he has and the stats he is having at the age he is having them at I think he's gotta be for real.

Before the season started, the STATS inc. profile (courtesy ESPN.com) predicted he would have a great year:

Sheets is a quality pitcher, something that would be a lot more obvious if he had a stronger team behind him. Even so, he hasn't yet reached his full potential, and he's getting to the age when he should start to put it all together. There's every reason to think he could take a significant step forward in 2004.

It's not a matter of a mediocre pitcher having a flukey good year like it could have been said about Loaiza last year. It's a matter of a great pitcher who has finally put it together because he's finally matured to the point where he can be a domiant pitcher in the majors consistantly.

Not all of the great pitchers are going to be awesome from day one. It takes time to for them to adjust to the major leagues. Sheets has finally done that this year.

If we could really get him for Reed and Cotts, I say do it right now.

Win1ForMe
06-03-2004, 12:28 AM
Sheets is a franchise pitcher. He's the type that you definately want on your team.

I haven't wanted to comment on this one because it just sounds too good to be true. Sheets could easily be the franchise pitcher we have all longed for.

I think I've heard just about enough Ben Sheets "love" for one thread. First of all, calling Ben Sheets a franchise pitcher two months into his first good season in four years is a joke. The guy's never had an ERA below 4 and never won over 11 games in a season (granted, he plays for the Brewers). But a franchise pitcher? GMAB...

Navaro's Talent
06-03-2004, 12:31 AM
Nice!

I would love to have either C.C. Sabathia, Ben Sheets, or Freddy Garica on this team. I don't exactly want to give up Reed, but I would do it if it would really benefit this team.

mmmmmbeeer
06-03-2004, 12:36 AM
I think it was in "Moneyball", I didn't read the book so I don't know for sure, but the comment was made that you cannot have ANYONE on your team that is untouchable. Same holds true amongst fantasy gurus, you can't consider anyone unattainable. Jeremy Reed has not faced a major league pitcher yet. He has not even played one year of AAA ball. He's having wrist problems. You have the chance to deal him for an impact player that will help lead your team to the promised land. You gotta do it. You can't fall in love with an individual player, you have to be dealing to part with quality to get quality. We need SP more than we need OF, so we should make this deal.

Sounds like Reed probably wouldn't be part of the deal anyway, but I'd have him on the table.

MRKARNO
06-03-2004, 12:47 AM
Originally posted by Win1ForMe
I think I've heard just about enough Ben Sheets "love" for one thread. First of all, calling Ben Sheets a franchise pitcher two months into his first good season in four years is a joke. The guy's never had an ERA below 4 and never won over 11 games in a season (granted, he plays for the Brewers). But a franchise pitcher? GMAB...

Well when someone that has the talent that he does starts to post the stats that everyone has been expecting him to for the first time, it's hard to ignore them and brush them off as him just having a great season. Basically last year he was supposed to be doing this.

And we're talking about trading a guy that has never done anything in the major leagues at all (Reed). Reed has never hit .300 at the major league level. Hell he's never hit .100 at the major league level because he's never had an at bat! You have to base trade value on potential. Reed has a lot of potential and Sheets is beginning to fulful his potential.

Has he ever had an ERA below four? No, but he has the ability to post an ERA below four this year and pretty much every single year.

I would call Olivo the franchise catcher and Uribe the franchise SS because of their potential, but neither has hit .300 over the course of a season or hit more than say 11 homers in a season.

Here's what Baseball Prospectus said about him before this year in their book:

He's being touted as the pitcher the Brewers have been supposed to get since Cal Eldred's summers in Denver were news, which is unfair. Sheets remains short of that, but 2003 was a year of small, significant improvements. He started doing a better job of spotting his curve against lefties, and improved his command. He's been a workhorse, gives them a quality start half of the time out on the mound, and he's young enough to keep improving if he can endure the workload. Last year, we said he was on the cusp of becoming pretty special. He's no there yet, but he did get a little closer. His homers-allowed column will likely decide which side of a 4 ERA he finishes on.

So basically they said he can be a special pitcher and now he is exhibiting why people have been so high on him for these past years.

OurBitchinMinny
06-03-2004, 12:49 AM
Originally posted by Frater Perdurabo
The problem for me is that Reed is a high OBP guy. Do the Sox have another other high OBP players coming up through the system? Do Anderson and Sweeney project as high OBP guys? OBP is something that the Sox offense desperately needs.

Put Reed in this offense in place of Rowand, with Uribe and Harris at SS and 2B, and all of a sudden this offfense will be unstoppable.

OTOH, with Sheets the rotation will be unstoppable this year, and next year, and 2006. Plus, Sheets is a known quantity, whereas Reed has not done anything at the MLB level.

Then again, Sheets has had his success pitching in the inferior National League. Then again, getting Reed into a Brewers uni means that he will give the Cubs fits for years. :D:

The lack of a stomach to make a decision of this magnitude is why I'm not getting the big bucks to be a big league GM. :o:


Look I confess I dont know a whole lot about reeds history. I do know he has talent and would have to be upgrade over Rowand (although so is the batboy). However, last I checked he was under .300 in AAA. I know he had wrist problems in ST and that may be affecting him still, but if you can get sheets for him and cotts, I would do it. Lock up maggs, then find another CF in the market or in a trade until either sweeney or anderson is ready. It would be great to throw borchard in instead of reed, but that may not be possible. Just get something done KW!!AND STOP PLAYING ROWAND SO DAMN MUCH OZZIE!!!!!!!!!!!

MRKARNO
06-03-2004, 12:52 AM
Originally posted by mmmmmbeeer
I think it was in "Moneyball", I didn't read the book so I don't know for sure, but the comment was made that you cannot have ANYONE on your team that is untouchable. Same holds true amongst fantasy gurus, you can't consider anyone unattainable. Jeremy Reed has not faced a major league pitcher yet. He has not even played one year of AAA ball. He's having wrist problems. You have the chance to deal him for an impact player that will help lead your team to the promised land. You gotta do it. You can't fall in love with an individual player, you have to be dealing to part with quality to get quality. We need SP more than we need OF, so we should make this deal.

Sounds like Reed probably wouldn't be part of the deal anyway, but I'd have him on the table.

If we're getting close to July first and we dont have a 5th starter and we just need to give up Reed to pull the trigger then I think we gotta do it. What's more important: Making a deal that would give us the best rotation in the American League and being assured to keep the core of that through 2006ish if we desire or keeping ONE of our four top level outfield prospects when at worst you could have an outfield of Harris, Lee and Borchard if Maggs left and Reed left too?

Kenny's gotta pull the trigger on this deal before June 12th if everything we've heard is correct.

MRKARNO
06-03-2004, 12:55 AM
Originally posted by ChisoxfaninMinny
AND STOP PLAYING ROWAND SO DAMN MUCH OZZIE!!!!!!!!!!!

It's hard not to play Rowand vs Lefties because he has a 1.000 OPS or something like that against them.

Expect to see a lot of Gload vs Righties.

StockdaleForVeep
06-03-2004, 03:07 AM
Originally posted by elrod
I can't believe the Indians would trade Sabathia in the division. They are rebuilding and Sabathia has been an anchor in an improving starting staff. Sheets makes more sense because he's due for a raise and Milwaukee doesn't want to pay.


But millwaukee is currently on a tear and they wouldnt trade a reliable starter unless they were out of it. We'd have the best shot at CC, can we call him bartolo jr? Same speed, half the body fat.

dougs78
06-03-2004, 08:05 AM
Just a thought here....

What if the reason Kenny is not going to include Borchard or Reed in a deal for Sheets/Sabathia/Garcia is that he is saving them for another bigger deal? Perhaps one for a big time hitter.

Just a shot in the dark, but maybe Kenny has plans to keep one of them around for next year and trading the other one. But he knows he wants a certain big fish that will require one of them. Thus, he can't unload another one too early and prevent him from making the second deal.

BigEdWalsh
06-03-2004, 08:19 AM
I live in Wisconsin southwest of Milwuakee (ugh). Most of my co-workers are Brewer fans.
Last night at work I talked with a few real hardcore fans about the possibility of the Sox trading for Sheets. They scoffed and said it'll never happen. Everything they've heard says Sheets is untouchable. I have no idea because I don't follow the Brewers at all. I'm hoping that's just wishful thinking on their part. I'd love for the Sox to get a deal done for Sheets.

Dadawg_77
06-03-2004, 08:34 AM
What tradeable pitching prospects do the Sox have, off the top of my head, Diaz, Grilli, Cotts, Munoz, Tofu, Bajearu. A couple of these guys would be in a trade for a pitcher.

Dadawg_77
06-03-2004, 08:35 AM
Originally posted by dougs78
Just a thought here....

What if the reason Kenny is not going to include Borchard or Reed in a deal for Sheets/Sabathia/Garcia is that he is saving them for another bigger deal? Perhaps one for a big time hitter.

Just a shot in the dark, but maybe Kenny has plans to keep one of them around for next year and trading the other one. But he knows he wants a certain big fish that will require one of them. Thus, he can't unload another one too early and prevent him from making the second deal.

I think he is saving those two to fill in for Lee and/or Mags.

Dadawg_77
06-03-2004, 08:37 AM
hmmm...... Can Kenny be creative and make it a three way?

rahulsekhar
06-03-2004, 10:20 AM
IMO it's not a bad deal to offer up Reed straight up for Sheets. While I like Jeremy's potential, give our depth @ OF and Sheets potential to help the franchise this year AND in future years, I'll take that over Reed's future potential. Not to mention that IMOP it's easier to fill in offensively given our offensive core than to develop a studly starting rotation. Get Sheets & resign Elo and all of a sudden you have a relatively cheap, locked up starting rotation that gives you a lot of flexibility with what you do offensively. Heck - that rotation probably gives you the wins tis year and general boost in fan optimism to generate additioanl revenues and let you resign Maggs. That starts a pretty nice virtuous cycle of optimism->attendance->revenues.

IMO it's easier to compete on a smaller budget if you have a studly rotation than if you have a studly O. Look at the A's, Marlins, & even the Cubs (IMO Prior & Clement &Zambrano are what's enabled them to go get guys like Lee & Ramirez because their pitchers don't take up a hge chunk of payroll and because they know that with that rotation, any investment in offense is almost guaranteed to generate returns).

If the rumors are true that they want Reed+Cotts and KW's said no, settle on just Reed, then potentially use Cotts in another deal for a hitter (or a closer).

OEO Magglio
06-03-2004, 11:58 AM
Originally posted by rahulsekhar
IMO it's not a bad deal to offer up Reed straight up for Sheets. While I like Jeremy's potential, give our depth @ OF and Sheets potential to help the franchise this year AND in future years, I'll take that over Reed's future potential. Not to mention that IMOP it's easier to fill in offensively given our offensive core than to develop a studly starting rotation. Get Sheets & resign Elo and all of a sudden you have a relatively cheap, locked up starting rotation that gives you a lot of flexibility with what you do offensively. Heck - that rotation probably gives you the wins tis year and general boost in fan optimism to generate additioanl revenues and let you resign Maggs. That starts a pretty nice virtuous cycle of optimism->attendance->revenues.

IMO it's easier to compete on a smaller budget if you have a studly rotation than if you have a studly O. Look at the A's, Marlins, & even the Cubs (IMO Prior & Clement &Zambrano are what's enabled them to go get guys like Lee & Ramirez because their pitchers don't take up a hge chunk of payroll and because they know that with that rotation, any investment in offense is almost guaranteed to generate returns).

If the rumors are true that they want Reed+Cotts and KW's said no, settle on just Reed, then potentially use Cotts in another deal for a hitter (or a closer).
There is no chance that the brewers would trade sheets straight up for reed. Lets see a franchise pitcher who's already proven he's going to be great or an outfielder who hasn't proven anything yet. If the brewers want cotts and reed for sheets kw should be jumping at that deal.

Win1ForMe
06-03-2004, 12:23 PM
Originally posted by OEO Magglio
There is no chance that the brewers would trade sheets straight up for reed. Lets see a franchise pitcher who's already proven he's going to be great...

Again, he's not proven anything. He's never won more than 11 games and never had an ERA below 4. He's got a good arm, but 1/3 of a good season does not a franchise pitcher make. People should relax with this stuff. It's bringing back the '02 memories of Josh Fogg and the dopes who called him the next Greg Maddux.

And this has nothing to do with the debate of giving up Jeremy Reed or Joe Borchard for Sheets. My point is simply that Sheets is NOT YET a franchise pitcher and don't see how he's been placed above Garcia or Sabathia.

CWSGuy406
06-03-2004, 12:29 PM
I trust Otis, but I thought I heard that the Brewer GM wanted THREE Top prospects for Ben Sheets. Now - does he consider Neal Cotts a top prospect? If we got either Sabathia/Sheets, though, our rotation would be young, solid, and locked up for years. The big three of Sheets-Sabathia/Buerhle/Garland, as well as possibly Loaiza. That would be awesome, and I wouldn't hesitate to give a package of Cotts/Borchard/Diaz to get either one.

Also, both are still young. It surprised me to know that CC is only 23, Sheets is 25. Buerhle is 25, Garland is 24 (IIRC), so that's a very young and exciting rotation.

Tekijawa
06-03-2004, 12:48 PM
Anyone notice how Sabathia is close to 300 pounds? What's with us and fat pitchers?

Sabathia scares me... why would the Indians give up on a young guy this early?

illinibk
06-03-2004, 12:55 PM
Originally posted by StockdaleForVeep
But millwaukee is currently on a tear and they wouldnt trade a reliable starter unless they were out of it.

For Milwaukee, trading away Sheets for outfield prospects, which they have plenty as is, would signify to the fans that the organization doesn't really care about winning. The Brewers don't need another PR disaster. And, in the even that Sheets were to be traded, given the Brewers future situation, it would be for pitching, and a glut of it, not for another outfield prospect.

SEALgep
06-03-2004, 01:06 PM
Originally posted by Win1ForMe
Again, he's not proven anything. He's never won more than 11 games and never had an ERA below 4. He's got a good arm, but 1/3 of a good season does not a franchise pitcher make. People should relax with this stuff. It's bringing back the '02 memories of Josh Fogg and the dopes who called him the next Greg Maddux.

And this has nothing to do with the debate of giving up Jeremy Reed or Joe Borchard for Sheets. My point is simply that Sheets is NOT YET a franchise pitcher and don't see how he's been placed above Garcia or Sabathia. I don't have him above Sabathia or Garcia either, but I'm saying I wouldn't want him. Although he may have more to prove, he's at the age where pitchers typically come into their own. He has the stuff to be an effective pitcher, no doubt about it.

ARoman27
06-03-2004, 01:52 PM
Ben Sheets is not a GREAT pitcher. What are you guys thinking even typing that sentence. He's 25 years old and hasn't put together one solid season yet. Yes he plays for a Brewers club that hasn't supported him, but by his career ERA they would have to score 5 runs per game to do so. Furthermore, he is one sweeping curveball away from the DL. At 25 he is throwing mass innings where a trip to the DL is inevitable. I saw that 20 K game and he was snapping that curveball so frequently. Couple that with 200+ innings per year and he'll be hurting. Sheets is not a GREAT pitcher, much like Kerry Wood should have to win more then 14 games in a season to warrant the praise. BTW - can't help but see the similarity between Sheets and Wood...especially being that Wood was a young guy with a neck-snapping curveball and the last pitcher with a 20 K game. I also recall Wood having arm problems. Hmmmm?

As for Jeremy Reed you guys are giving up too easy on one of the top prospects in the game. On the topic of prospects, can we still refer to Borchard as one? The scouting report on Reed is that he can grow into a 20-30 HR guy in the future. He's currently battling through a post-wrist injury and as we know the wrists play a major role in hitting the homerun. I'll agree that Reed's AVG has dropped and his SLG could certainly be higher, but lets not disregard the high-ceiling on this kid. Also, the Brewers have their Reed-type player in Podsednik. They seem sufficient in the OF, both majors and minors that trading away THEIR staff ace wouldn't make sense.

Obtaining a pitcher like CC Sabathia would be interesting because he's a power pitcher which is something the Sox have lacked for years. Would be nice to see a pitcher throw in the high-90's again. Although I doubt Sabathia is 23 as reported. All it takes is a trade for him to age by 4 years, ala Soriano in Texas. Sabathia might not have the perfect physique and/or be your prototypical "cookie-cutter" pitcher like the majority of starters out there, but that doesn't take away from his effectivness on the mound. All that matters is the box score at the end of the game, not the buffet line!

jabrch
06-03-2004, 01:58 PM
Originally posted by ARoman27
Sabathia might not have the perfect physique

No Kidding?

He has the same physique as Jabba the Hut.

Fisk72
06-03-2004, 02:05 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
He has the same physique as Jabba the Hut. [/B]


Would Princess Leia at least come with him?!? :D:

mocca1
06-03-2004, 02:17 PM
Ben Sheets is not a GREAT pitcher

?

What in the Sam Horn are you talking about?
He has developed his game very nicely over the last 2 years.
He has always been good but now he is GREAT.

The Brewers are like 3 or 4 games out of first this year.
They have Prince and Weeks coming up next year.
This could be a very sweet team.
I not sure they want Doug Davis leading the way.

PaleHoseRon
06-03-2004, 02:19 PM
Originally posted by illinibk
For Milwaukee, trading away Sheets for outfield prospects, which they have plenty as is, would signify to the fans that the organization doesn't really care about winning. The Brewers don't need another PR disaster. And, in the even that Sheets were to be traded, given the Brewers future situation, it would be for pitching, and a glut of it, not for another outfield prospect.

Have you seen Ben Grieve play?

ARoman27
06-03-2004, 02:49 PM
What in the Sam Horn are you talking about?
He has developed his game very nicely over the last 2 years.
He has always been good but now he is GREAT.

You obviously shouldn't be given a HOF ballot if you are dubbing Sheets a GREAT pitcher. Last I checked a career record of 38-42 isn't too great. Oh, whoops - forgot to mention the career 4.23 ERA. Damn, those numbers are downright scary!

He's off to a good start in the first quarter of a season, but just missed his last start because he got dizzy. Call me at the end of the year and see if his ERA is still sub 4.00.

Funny thing about Ben Sheets is that he carries the same exact career record as Jon Garland, but I don't hear any of you calling him great. Plus none of you guys aren't saying that maybe Garland is coming into his own this season, he's a year younger then Sheets and he's at least won 12 games in the majors. Everyone needs to get off the Sheets bandwagon because the guy is not GREAT!

mocca1
06-03-2004, 03:15 PM
Funny thing about Ben Sheets is that he carries the same exact career record as Jon Garland, but I don't hear any of you calling him great. Plus none of you guys aren't saying that maybe Garland is coming into his own this season, he's a year younger then Sheets and he's at least won 12 games in the majors. Everyone needs to get off the Sheets bandwagon because the guy is not GREAT!

RECORD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Milwaukee Brewers DUDE

I think Garland has had a little better help than Sheets has had.
Face it he is one of the best young pitchers in the game.
I'm a brewer fan also so thats why I think he is GREAT.
You would to if he was on the SOX.

There keeping Garland in the game longer this year.
He has been learning to get out of his jams .

He is a key part of this team.

cornball
06-03-2004, 03:16 PM
Personally, I would love to have any of the three pitchers mentioned. Not too concerned with the prospects given at this point. Need to play for today, worry about tomorrow later.

otis, your still the man!!! Thanks.

hold2dibber
06-03-2004, 03:18 PM
Originally posted by ARoman27
You obviously shouldn't be given a HOF ballot if you are dubbing Sheets a GREAT pitcher. Last I checked a career record of 38-42 isn't too great. Oh, whoops - forgot to mention the career 4.23 ERA. Damn, those numbers are downright scary!

He's off to a good start in the first quarter of a season, but just missed his last start because he got dizzy. Call me at the end of the year and see if his ERA is still sub 4.00.

Funny thing about Ben Sheets is that he carries the same exact career record as Jon Garland, but I don't hear any of you calling him great. Plus none of you guys aren't saying that maybe Garland is coming into his own this season, he's a year younger then Sheets and he's at least won 12 games in the majors. Everyone needs to get off the Sheets bandwagon because the guy is not GREAT!

I wouldn't judge Sheets by his record - he's been on an absolute horse crap team his whole career (and a pitcher's record is, obviously, influenced by a lot of things that are completely out of his control). But I agree with you that Sheets is not a great pitcher. Yet. And that's the big deal here. If you've actually seen him pitch, you know that he has great stuff. He has flashed brilliance and the potential to dominate, unlike Garland who, at best, has shown the ability to be a good no. 2 or 3. Sheets has the potential (and I agree at this point it is mostly just potential) to be a no. 1. PLUS, he'd be under contract for at least a few more years. Sheets would be a great pick up for all those reasons (and for those same reasons, I cannot imagine that the Brewers would trade him unless they got a king's ransom in return).

CWSGuy406
06-03-2004, 03:20 PM
Originally posted by Tekijawa
Anyone notice how Sabathia is close to 300 pounds? What's with us and fat pitchers?

Sabathia scares me... why would the Indians give up on a young guy this early?

It wouldn't be Cleveland 'giving up' on Sabathia. If they could get Cotts/Borchard and possibly another player, while they like Sabathia, they might be thinking a package of Sox players might mean more to them than Sabathia. I hope that made some sense, lol.

ARoman27
06-03-2004, 03:21 PM
Seriously, come to me at the end of the year and lets see what his ERA and W-L record is. And you want to talk about GREAT pitchers on lousy teams, then look at Randy Johnson. He's 7-4 on a team that is 20-33. Your guy, Sheets (aka The Second coming of Christ) is 5-3 on a team that is over .500!

Stop yourself.

mocca1
06-03-2004, 03:34 PM
Seriously, come to me at the end of the year and lets see what his ERA and W-L record is. And you want to talk about GREAT pitchers on lousy teams, then look at Randy Johnson. He's 7-4 on a team that is 20-33. Your guy, Sheets (aka The Second coming of Christ) is 5-3 on a team that is over .500!

Stop yourself.


Comparing Sheets to Johnson. hmmmmmmm

If doing that you must have some sort of respect towards Ben.
Way to hammer home your point.

Stay Cool.

ARoman27
06-03-2004, 03:38 PM
You're the one who has lumped him in with the greatest pitchers of all time. Don't be so quick to throw around words like "great" when discussing a ballplayers talents. I think Sheets is an interesting talent, but the snap on his curveball scares me. He throws a lot of innings and snapping a curveball like that will take a toll on his elbow. Kerry Wood was very similair when he first came up and injured himself because of this. I look at Sheets as being too costly for the return. And if you're a Milwaukee fan you should be happy because then he'll stay in your clubhouse.

As far as my comparison to Johnson it was only relative to show you what a GREAT pitcher can do on a crappy team. Whereas you are hiding Sheets deficiencies on the Brewers ballclub.

Lip Man 1
06-03-2004, 03:42 PM
Gang:

For what it's worth I sent Otis posts on to Ken Rosenthal of TSN. He told me he'd look into it but the last he heard both Sheets and Sabathia were 'untouchable.' Also that the last thing Cleveland needs is more outfielders.

Lip

mocca1
06-03-2004, 03:49 PM
I just said he was Great. I didn't mean one of the best of all time.
Anybody can get injured regardless of there mechanics or pitch selection. He developed the change up last year and mixes in the curve this year. Pitchers must do this to complement there fast ball. His pitch location has improved. He is dominating right now.
I think he will for years to come. Thats just the fan in me though.

I wouldn't care if he got traded to the Sox. I'm in a no lose situation.

voodoochile
06-03-2004, 03:50 PM
Anyone else feel a bit concerned that the report includes the fact that Reed and Borchard are considered untouchable?

Ladies and Gentlemen, you starting 2005 RF and CF...

steff
06-03-2004, 03:52 PM
A friend in the Berwers organization said no way to this.



Brian, I know what I said via PM, but I saw Lip's post and said.. "what the hell.." :D:

34 Inch Stick
06-03-2004, 04:25 PM
Steff, I don't know what you do for a living but you could supplement your income by being some media outlet's "Insider"

fuzzy_patters
06-03-2004, 04:29 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Anyone else feel a bit concerned that the report includes the fact that Reed and Borchard are considered untouchable?

Ladies and Gentlemen, you starting 2005 RF and CF...

That is disconcerting. A serious organization, like the Yankees, would not be afraid to trade their prospects for a shot at winning now because they intend to resign the veterans they already have. Therefore, they have little need for prospects. Meanwhile, the Sox continue to look for Jerry Reinsdorf's "windows of opportunity," and they will probably be back in rebuilding mode before too long. After 20+ years, the Reinsdorf way gets to be predictable.

jabrch
06-03-2004, 04:33 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Anyone else feel a bit concerned that the report includes the fact that Reed and Borchard are considered untouchable?

Ladies and Gentlemen, you starting 2005 RF and CF...

Depending on what we do with the 14mm we are saving, this isn't the end of the world - is it? Imagine if the 14mm is used to go out and get an Ace? or a stud 3B?

steff
06-03-2004, 04:35 PM
Originally posted by 34 Inch Stick
Steff, I don't know what you do for a living but you could supplement your income by being some media outlet's "Insider"



Bla... I get called enough nasty names. :D:

voodoochile
06-03-2004, 04:45 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
Depending on what we do with the 14mm we are saving, this isn't the end of the world - is it? Imagine if the 14mm is used to go out and get an Ace? or a stud 3B?

Well, last year they spent the 14M they saved on Colon by extending Lee and Buehrle through their arbitration years. Now on the surface that seems fine, but we have to remember that those guys were White Sox property through 2006 no matter what.

I hope your scenario comes true, but I remain skeptical. In addition, I still think the best solution is to sign Maggs AND the stud 3B AND the stud pitcher, but now I am into a shade of pink so deep that is closer to magenta, so I am left hoping for Mags and ONE more player but even that seems unlikely...

I hate being forced to pick and choose like this. I'm a fan. I want the world and I want it RIGHT NOW!

steff
06-03-2004, 04:46 PM
By the way... In case anyone is interested.. Ben also is suffering from an ear infection.

SEALgep
06-03-2004, 04:52 PM
Originally posted by fuzzy_patters
That is disconcerting. A serious organization, like the Yankees, would not be afraid to trade their prospects for a shot at winning now because they intend to resign the veterans they already have. Therefore, they have little need for prospects. Meanwhile, the Sox continue to look for Jerry Reinsdorf's "windows of opportunity," and they will probably be back in rebuilding mode before too long. After 20+ years, the Reinsdorf way gets to be predictable. It's not as if they aren't willing to trade top prospects. We've shown that last year with Royce Ring. Some prospects should try to be attained unless some unrefusable offer was made. If you can get what you want without using them, why not. If Maggs gets extended that's one thing, so maybe we could unload a good outfield prospect if that were the case. However, with no CF and Maggs not a certainty to come back, what sense would it make to trade our most ready replacements? Just because we keep them doesn't imply we are planning on not signing Maggs. At the very least it's insurance, and that's just smart business for any team.

guillen4life13
06-03-2004, 05:00 PM
Originally posted by mocca1
[B]I'm a brewer fan also so thats why I think he is GREAT.
You would to if he was on the SOX.[B]

Uh... contrary. I think that were Ben Sheets on this team, he would be hated much more than you could imagine. Why? That's what comes with being on this team. We are a very, very critical mass of fans. That's not a bad thing, but it's the truth. Otherwise this site wouldn't even exist most likely.

MRKARNO
06-03-2004, 05:00 PM
Anyone who says we shouldnt give up Reed because of his potential for Sheets because Sheets hasn't done anything is being hypocritical. Either we're talking about talent and the ability to produce good stats with that talent or just potential. Sheets has shown the ability to post awesome stats with his talent. Reed hasn't played a game in the majors. Pick a side of the fence.

dickallen15
06-03-2004, 05:02 PM
Sheets will not be traded, unless they were just given a boatload for him, and they couldn't say no.

illinibk
06-03-2004, 05:31 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseRon
Have you seen Ben Grieve play?

Who would consider Ben Grieve a prospect? He was rookie of the year a while ago, but he isn't in the Brewer's long-term future and most people, including Grieve realize that. When I referred to the Brewer's outfield prospects, I was referring to Tony Gwynn Jr., Brad Nelson, and Corey Hart.

MarkPloch
06-03-2004, 06:15 PM
Borchard has never shown why he should be in the majors. Rauch has failed each time he came up.
Koch has yet to earn his paycheck here either.

Put them all in a package or mix and match them for whomever.

hold2dibber
06-03-2004, 06:19 PM
Originally posted by MarkPloch
Borchard has never shown why he should be in the majors. Rauch has failed each time he came up.
Koch has yet to earn his paycheck here either.

Put them all in a package or mix and match them for whomever.

Good luck trying to trade Koch and his fat contract, unless he really picks up the pace and starts getting the job done (but if that happens, the Sox would probably be better off keeping him).

I'd be interested to see what Borchard and/or Rauch could return in trade - although KW sure didn't increase Rauch's trade value with his dumb ass tirade last weekend.

PaleHoseRon
06-03-2004, 07:30 PM
Originally posted by illinibk
Who would consider Ben Grieve a prospect? He was rookie of the year a while ago, but he isn't in the Brewer's long-term future and most people, including Grieve realize that. When I referred to the Brewer's outfield prospects, I was referring to Tony Gwynn Jr., Brad Nelson, and Corey Hart.

Good point, however of the above three players, only Corey Hart is currently in AAA, and he is only hitting .280 with 21 strikeouts in 100 AB. Anthony Gynn is at .254 with 38 strikeouts with 181 AB, and Brad Nelson is at .280 with 49 strikeouts with 161 AB. With the time table 2-3 years at best for these guys to be ready for the bigs according to the Brewer's office, they could use an immediate fill at the corner outfield spots. Although the Crew has extended Geoff Jenkins, he still holds some of the best trade value, other than Sheets of course, who may be "untouchable". I would think that Scott Po is the other only "untouchable" player on the roster. Just my opinion though.

StockdaleForVeep
06-04-2004, 02:41 AM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
What tradeable pitching prospects do the Sox have, off the top of my head, Diaz, Grilli, Cotts, Munoz, Tofu, Bajearu. A couple of these guys would be in a trade for a pitcher.


hm...for a second i thought you were naming toppings\ingredients for a hotdog with those names

eshunn2001
06-04-2004, 11:58 AM
Originally posted by Win1ForMe
I think I've heard just about enough Ben Sheets "love" for one thread. First of all, calling Ben Sheets a franchise pitcher two months into his first good season in four years is a joke. The guy's never had an ERA below 4 and never won over 11 games in a season (granted, he plays for the Brewers). But a franchise pitcher? GMAB...


Thank god someone said it. Some people here are just plain nutty. This Sheets stuff rminds me of listening to Cub fans brag about Cory Patterson Being the best CF in the game, Because he had one good half a season in his ENTIRE career.

Randar68
06-04-2004, 12:10 PM
Originally posted by eshunn2001
Thank god someone said it. Some people here are just plain nutty. This Sheets stuff rminds me of listening to Cub fans brag about Cory Patterson Being the best CF in the game, Because he had one good half a season in his ENTIRE career.

Sheets is a good target befause he still is young and has a lot of upside potential that is not shown in the #'s. He came to the majors WAY before he was ready and the BrewCrew rushed him.

My biggest concern is his workload at such a young age. I don't see enough Brewers games to know if he's that much of a horse or if he was overused. I tend to believe the second, but I don't know.

His K/IP rate is not that significantly improved removing the 18 K game, so I'm not so sure about him, but he goes deep into games, eats innings, and his good stuff. At worst, he'd be a good #3 or #4 type pitcher for us, and we only NEED a #5 (anything more is gravy). Again, if you can get Sheets for similar to what you can get Garcia for, I'd rather do that. Garcia is going to be more expensive, has been a little bit of a head-case, and had injury issues of his own. Sheets still has 2 (IIRC) more arbitration seasons and makes 1/3rd of what Garcia makes.

Randar68
06-04-2004, 12:25 PM
Originally posted by eshunn2001
Thank god someone said it. Some people here are just plain nutty. This Sheets stuff rminds me of listening to Cub fans brag about Cory Patterson Being the best CF in the game, Because he had one good half a season in his ENTIRE career.

Again, looking back at his numbers, a couple more comments.

All the indicators insist that, while his current pace isn't likely to hold up in its entirety, there are several key trends...

His K/IP and his K/BB numbers have trended upward over his short career.

His OBP, AVG, SLG, and OPS against have all steadily gone down.

In addition, while he has pitched a hefty amount of innings for a young guy, his #pitches/start has been steady around 100 thus far, at least superficially suggesting that he isn't terribly overworked.

eshunn2001
06-04-2004, 12:48 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
Sheets is a good target befause he still is young and has a lot of upside potential that is not shown in the #'s. He came to the majors WAY before he was ready and the BrewCrew rushed him.

My biggest concern is his workload at such a young age. I don't see enough Brewers games to know if he's that much of a horse or if he was overused. I tend to believe the second, but I don't know.

His K/IP rate is not that significantly improved removing the 18 K game, so I'm not so sure about him, but he goes deep into games, eats innings, and his good stuff. At worst, he'd be a good #3 or #4 type pitcher for us, and we only NEED a #5 (anything more is gravy). Again, if you can get Sheets for similar to what you can get Garcia for, I'd rather do that. Garcia is going to be more expensive, has been a little bit of a head-case, and had injury issues of his own. Sheets still has 2 (IIRC) more arbitration seasons and makes 1/3rd of what Garcia makes.



I agree with your post almost entirely. I was targeting my post more at the people who are saying he is a rare find. Or an overly gifted pitcher. He is a fine 3 or 4 guy. And we would be able to hold on to him longer than Garcia. But he is not a Super Star.

Randar68
06-04-2004, 01:59 PM
Originally posted by eshunn2001
But he is not a Super Star.

Yet. I don't know if he can become one or not, but his numbers have been improving and have not yet reach a plateau. Who knows, but he was once considered the best prospect out of the Oswalt/Rauch/Sheets trio.

34 Inch Stick
06-04-2004, 02:06 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
Sheets is a good target befause he still is young and has a lot of upside potential that is not shown in the #'s. He came to the majors WAY before he was ready and the BrewCrew rushed him.

My biggest concern is his workload at such a young age. I don't see enough Brewers games to know if he's that much of a horse or if he was overused. I tend to believe the second, but I don't know.

His K/IP rate is not that significantly improved removing the 18 K game, so I'm not so sure about him, but he goes deep into games, eats innings, and his good stuff. At worst, he'd be a good #3 or #4 type pitcher for us, and we only NEED a #5 (anything more is gravy). Again, if you can get Sheets for similar to what you can get Garcia for, I'd rather do that. Garcia is going to be more expensive, has been a little bit of a head-case, and had injury issues of his own. Sheets still has 2 (IIRC) more arbitration seasons and makes 1/3rd of what Garcia makes.

Randar, taking all of this into consideration, I would think Sheets is the type of player that you acquire in the off season to supplement your rotation. He has some questions marks but the long term potential is worth the risk.

However, this acquisistion is mainly for the short term. We need an established pitcher who has been through a playoff run and who we are reasonably certain will succeed. Out of all the players mentioned, Garcia fits that bill.

I want the best available player and I will deal with next season when next season comes. I will match Garcia, Buhrle and Loiza against any other three in the AL except Oakland and Boston.

Randar68
06-04-2004, 02:20 PM
Originally posted by 34 Inch Stick
Randar, taking all of this into consideration, I would think Sheets is the type of player that you acquire in the off season to supplement your rotation. He has some questions marks but the long term potential is worth the risk.

However, this acquisistion is mainly for the short term. We need an established pitcher who has been through a playoff run and who we are reasonably certain will succeed. Out of all the players mentioned, Garcia fits that bill.

I want the best available player and I will deal with next season when next season comes. I will match Garcia, Buhrle and Loiza against any other three in the AL except Oakland and Boston.

Hypothetically speaking, if the cost is equal (in terms of prospects), and the money is cheaper, isn't it a better long-term move to get Sheets now?

I could see him being a legit #2 pitcher next year if the trends of the past 3+ years continue. We may or may not have Loaiza next year. The monetary cost for Sheets is a fraction of what Garcia would cost.

Garcia's history isn't so great that I'd take one year of Garcia at a greater opportunity cost than what it would take to get Sheets and make a move for this year that also all but guarantees at least SOME future contribution over the next couple years?

We don't have a 5th starter ready to come in now, and possibly losing ELo after this year, unless we acquire someone who will be more than a rent-a-player, we could have 2 openings in the rotation AGAIN next year.

I'd rather use a Rauch/Diaz/Cotts etc to get a guy like Sheets, even though I like those guys. Frankly, I'd probably make similar offers to both Seattle and Milwaukee, and just say, first-come-first-serve.

Mohoney
06-04-2004, 03:26 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
Yet. I don't know if he can become one or not, but his numbers have been improving and have not yet reach a plateau. Who knows, but he was once considered the best prospect out of the Oswalt/Rauch/Sheets trio.

Very true. Now I think we're starting to see why he was held in such high regard.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I actually think that Sheets has better stuff than Garcia.

Sheets' curve is a great out-pitch when he's ahead in the count 0-2 or 1-2.

Now, after a few years of seasoning, he's starting to do a really good job of commanding that curve. It looks like this guy is finally starting to put it all together.

This guy has a world of upside, and as of right now, I would rather have him than Garcia. I think Milwaukee would be stupid to give up on this guy, although the pending arbitration will probably have more to do with it than any other factor.

Randar68
06-04-2004, 03:32 PM
Originally posted by Mohoney
This guy has a world of upside, and as of right now, I would rather have him than Garcia. I think Milwaukee would be stupid to give up on this guy, although the pending arbitration will probably have more to do with it than any other factor.

I agree, and I am not anywhere saying Sheets is available or that we should be targeting him or whatever someone might insinuate when some Milwaukee Sentinel-Journal article claims he's not on the market.

All my statements on Sheets are hypotheticals, should he be available and assuming he can be had without blowing up the system.

Mohoney
06-04-2004, 03:32 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
Again, looking back at his numbers, a couple more comments.

All the indicators insist that, while his current pace isn't likely to hold up in its entirety, there are several key trends...

His K/IP and his K/BB numbers have trended upward over his short career.

His OBP, AVG, SLG, and OPS against have all steadily gone down.

In addition, while he has pitched a hefty amount of innings for a young guy, his #pitches/start has been steady around 100 thus far, at least superficially suggesting that he isn't terribly overworked.

Exactly. The guy is showing improvement with each passing year. Garcia has shown an ability to regress.

Sheets is also showing more consistency. He doesn't have as large of a drop-off when he pitches on the road as Garcia does.

Mohoney
06-04-2004, 03:39 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
I agree, and I am not anywhere saying Sheets is available or that we should be targeting him or whatever someone might insinuate when some Milwaukee Sentinel-Journal article claims he's not on the market.

All my statements on Sheets are hypotheticals, should he be available and assuming he can be had without blowing up the system.

I would give up Reed and Cotts. I don't think that this offer would be blowing up the system. If Milwaukee needs more, then I probably refuse, unless we can maybe include a low A-ball throw-in.

I think we have other pieces (Wunsch, Rowand) that we can trade to retool the farm with A or AA level talent, and we also have the draft coming up.

Randar68
06-04-2004, 03:57 PM
Originally posted by Mohoney
I would give up Reed and Cotts. I don't think that this offer would be blowing up the system. If Milwaukee needs more, then I probably refuse, unless we can maybe include a low A-ball throw-in.

I think we have other pieces (Wunsch, Rowand) that we can trade to retool the farm with A or AA level talent, and we also have the draft coming up.

I think that would be a little too high a price to pay. Reed and LTP are the only possible near-term replacements for Maggs or Lee and either could probably be better CF'ers than anyone currently on the roster if needed.

The Brewers are going to be looking for pitching talent, I'm sure. Cotts or Munoz plus a couple of mid-to-low level pitching prospects might do the trick, perhaps a deal like Rauch and Diaz?

Again, I like some of our prospects, but I'm much more willing to deal pitching for pitching than to weaken our OF and depth there.

Sheets would lock-up a rotation spot for at least a couple of years, reducing your dependence on your near-term starter-prospects...

Mohoney
06-04-2004, 04:08 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
I think that would be a little too high a price to pay. Reed and LTP are the only possible near-term replacements for Maggs or Lee and either could probably be better CF'ers than anyone currently on the roster if needed.

The Brewers are going to be looking for pitching talent, I'm sure. Cotts or Munoz plus a couple of mid-to-low level pitching prospects might do the trick, perhaps a deal like Rauch and Diaz?

Again, I like some of our prospects, but I'm much more willing to deal pitching for pitching than to weaken our OF and depth there.

Sheets would lock-up a rotation spot for at least a couple of years, reducing your dependence on your near-term starter-prospects...

Ok. Fair enough. I just thought that if Reed seals the deal, and we're guaranteed to have Sheets for another 2 years, it was a little more enticing to Milwaukee.

Then again, I see Sheets as an All-Star in 2005 and 2006.

BTW, if you can get Sheets WITHOUT giving up Reed, even better.

soxtalker
06-04-2004, 04:15 PM
Originally posted by Randar68

Sheets would lock-up a rotation spot for at least a couple of years, reducing your dependence on your near-term starter-prospects...

What does our rotation look like next year ? Isn't Loaiza a FA after this year? This may be slightly off topic, but it could figure into some of the thinking about who we trade for.

Randar68
06-04-2004, 04:18 PM
Originally posted by soxtalker
What does our rotation look like next year ? Isn't Loaiza a FA after this year? This may be slightly off topic, but it could figure into some of the thinking about who we trade for.

Loaiza is a FA, yes. Buehrle, Schoe, and Garland could all be in line for raises as well, IIRC.

Definitely need to make a move to help solidify the future as well as the present.

Dadawg_77
06-04-2004, 04:19 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
I think that would be a little too high a price to pay. Reed and LTP are the only possible near-term replacements for Maggs or Lee and either could probably be better CF'ers than anyone currently on the roster if needed.

The Brewers are going to be looking for pitching talent, I'm sure. Cotts or Munoz plus a couple of mid-to-low level pitching prospects might do the trick, perhaps a deal like Rauch and Diaz?

Again, I like some of our prospects, but I'm much more willing to deal pitching for pitching than to weaken our OF and depth there.

Sheets would lock-up a rotation spot for at least a couple of years, reducing your dependence on your near-term starter-prospects...

To trade Sheets the Brewers are going to need a name just for the PR. Reed is a good name, number 2 prospect on BP and 25 in BA, plus additional pitching prospects.

MRKARNO
06-04-2004, 04:20 PM
Originally posted by soxtalker
What does our rotation look like next year ? Isn't Loaiza a FA after this year? This may be slightly off topic, but it could figure into some of the thinking about who we trade for.

Loaiza is a free Agent and Schoeneweis will be one too I believe because he has 6 years in the majors as of this year.

Buehrle is signed through 2006 with a 2007 option and Garland has a similar deal in terms of length.

MRKARNO
06-04-2004, 04:21 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
Loaiza is a FA, yes. Buehrle, Schoe, and Garland could all be in line for raises as well, IIRC.


Buehrle and Garland are both signed through their mandatory arbitration years.

Iguana775
06-04-2004, 04:22 PM
Originally posted by MRKARNO
Loaiza is a free Agent and Schoeneweis will be one too I believe because he has 6 years in the majors as of this year.

Buehrle is signed through 2006 with a 2007 option and Garland has a similar deal in terms of length.

KW needs to sign Loaiza and Schoe to a new contract asap.

Randar68
06-04-2004, 04:23 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
To trade Sheets the Brewers are going to need a name just for the PR. Reed is a good name, number 2 prospect on BP and 25 in BA, plus additional pitching prospects.

The word on the street is that KW is not shopping any of the top OF prospects. That said, if they want a name, Rauch was Minor League POY.

Randar68
06-04-2004, 04:23 PM
Originally posted by MRKARNO
Loaiza is a free Agent and Schoeneweis will be one too I believe because he has 6 years in the majors as of this year.

Buehrle is signed through 2006 with a 2007 option and Garland has a similar deal in terms of length.

Hadn't looked it up, thanks for clarifying.

Dadawg_77
06-04-2004, 04:24 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
The word on the street is that KW is not shopping any of the top OF prospects. That said, if they want a name, Rauch was Minor League POY.

True, but I think his stock has drop heavily due to the torn labrum.

Mickster
06-04-2004, 04:26 PM
Originally posted by Iguana775
KW needs to sign Loaiza and Schoe to a new contract asap.

Isn't that how we got into trouble with Konerko's putrid contract???

Dadawg_77
06-04-2004, 04:28 PM
Originally posted by Mickster
Isn't that how we got into trouble with Konerko's putrid contract???

Not really, he got in trouble because he misread the market that year.

MRKARNO
06-04-2004, 04:28 PM
How good of a prospect is Diaz really and could he potentially play a central role in any of our possible trades?

Randar68
06-04-2004, 04:28 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
True, but I think his stock has drop heavily due to the torn labrum.

If Sheets continues on his pace, he'll either get a big raise in arbitration or he'll be looking for a pretty significant contract. The Brewers are built on the cheap.

The Sox have enough talent I think they can pull one of these deals off without including Reed, LTP, Anderson, or Sweeney, the only real untouchables, IMO, unless you're talking about an undisputed Ace or Beltran-like player.

Randar68
06-04-2004, 04:30 PM
Originally posted by MRKARNO
How good of a prospect is Diaz really and could he potentially play a central role in any of our possible trades?

Diaz is not a marquee name, but he's good enough to have admirers out there. Some think he could be electric in a bullpen role, possibly turn into a closer... Who knows?

I'd be willing to deal just about any higher-level pitching prospect that isn't needed this year, as long as we were obtaining someone more than just a rent-a-player...

Dadawg_77
06-04-2004, 04:31 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
If Sheets continues on his pace, he'll either get a big raise in arbitration or he'll be looking for a pretty significant contract. The Brewers are built on the cheap.

The Sox have enough talent I think they can pull one of these deals off without including Reed, LTP, Anderson, or Sweeney, the only real untouchables, IMO, unless you're talking about an undisputed Ace or Beltran-like player.

Baseball wise, yes. But the Brewers are getting hammered on in the PR department. If they trade Sheets, they have better bring home something people can recognize, or it will get worse. That isn't a good thing when you are trying to sell the club.

MRKARNO
06-04-2004, 04:35 PM
:tomatoaward :tomatoaward