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View Full Version : Mechanics observation on Koch...


Wanne
06-01-2004, 12:29 PM
I just wanted to ask some members their opinion on this. I know Koch has come under alot of fire early on in the season...but has been doing a pretty good job as of late. Alot had been made of his lost velocity. When I was watching him close out the game on Sunday, I noticed that he throws very straight up and down and doesn't seem to have very much leg drive, nor does he bend his back very much...and yet he was hitting 94 on the gun. It just seemed to me that a man his size would increase his mph if he bent his back more and drove with his legs (ala Tom Seaver). I know that's a extreme comparison...but that was just a personal observation I had when watching Koch throw. Anybody else see the same thing?

infohawk
06-01-2004, 12:53 PM
I was at the game on Sunday as well. While I can't really speak to his mechanics, I will say that he seemed to have very good velocity on his pitches. The ball had a lot of zip. He looks much better than he did at the beginning of the season.

mdep524
06-01-2004, 01:06 PM
Originally posted by Wanne
I just wanted to ask some members their opinion on this. I know Koch has come under alot of fire early on in the season...but has been doing a pretty good job as of late. Alot had been made of his lost velocity. When I was watching him close out the game on Sunday, I noticed that he throws very straight up and down and doesn't seem to have very much leg drive, nor does he bend his back very much...and yet he was hitting 94 on the gun. It just seemed to me that a man his size would increase his mph if he bent his back more and drove with his legs (ala Tom Seaver). I know that's a extreme comparison...but that was just a personal observation I had when watching Koch throw. Anybody else see the same thing?

YES! Great point Wanne. I noticed the same thing all last season. He seems to throw too much with his arms and nt drive with his lower body or back at all. I always thought he could generate more velcotiy, and more accuracy/control, if he used his lower body more.

bennyw41
06-01-2004, 02:04 PM
No offense to you last few posters, but don't you think that if this was serious problem, or the main problem, someone in the organzation(mainly coop, or others) would have brought it to his attention. I think his mind is the ultimate mechanic that needs tweaking.

SoxFan76
06-01-2004, 02:08 PM
Originally posted by bennyw41
No offense to you last few posters, but don't you think that if this was serious problem, or the main problem, someone in the organzation(mainly coop, or others) would have brought it to his attention. I think his mind is the ultimate mechanic that needs tweaking.

Coop is a PITCHING COACH. Some people on a message board aren't going to catch something that obvious before the PITCHING COACH does.

Randar68
06-01-2004, 02:11 PM
Originally posted by SoxFan76
Coop is a PITCHING COACH. Some people on a message board aren't going to catch something that obvious before the PITCHING COACH does.

Wow. I guess nobody should discuss baseball here then. What does that leave us with? Ticket Sales? Green Seats?
*****

It's obvious as the light of day that Koch does not have perfect mechanics. However, as a previous poster said, the most important mechanics for Billy are between his ears. He doesn't fall off the mound and overthrow as much as he used to also, and that will help contribute to better control.

skottyj242
06-01-2004, 02:14 PM
I've said it once and I'll say it again: Leave my guy alone.

SoxFan76
06-01-2004, 02:16 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
Wow. I guess nobody should discuss baseball here then. What does that leave us with? Ticket Sales? Green Seats?
*****

It's obvious as the light of day that Koch does not have perfect mechanics. However, as a previous poster said, the most important mechanics for Billy are between his ears. He doesn't fall off the mound and overthrow as much as he used to also, and that will help contribute to better control.

I never said we can't discuss baseball, but pitching with your legs is one of the first things a pitcher learns. If Koch's problem was pitching with his legs, SOMEBODY in the organization would of told him a long time ago. It's things like arm angles and arm positioning that may go unnoticed by coaches.

illiniwhitesox
06-01-2004, 02:18 PM
I would rather have his pitches move more than have his velocity increase.

A pitch that moves in on the hands of batters is invaluable. Yes, Koch has been phenomonal when he approaches 3 digits, but those days may never come back.

Give me movement over velocity!

Wanne
06-01-2004, 02:19 PM
Hey...I'm not suggesting Koch is having a problem right now...or that he change. I mearly stated that I thought he could increase his velocity by driving with his legs more and bending his back instead of throwing with all arm. Every pitcher is different...and not all have perfect mechanics (or what is supposed to be). How he throws works for him and yes, I agree, it's between the ears. It's just that he looks destined for shoulder problems down the road. But right now...if it ain't broke...don't fix it.

Randar68
06-01-2004, 02:20 PM
Originally posted by SoxFan76
I never said we can't discuss baseball, but pitching with your legs is one of the first things a pitcher learns. If Koch's problem was pitching with his legs, SOMEBODY in the organization would of told him a long time ago. It's things like arm angles and arm positioning that may go unnoticed by coaches.

HUH? These guys have access to the video from most of today's player's entire careers. In addition to being able to break down video and slow-mo of mechanics mid-game if desired.

There isn't much a good pitching coach is going to miss, let alone be looking for the answer from a message board.

Koch is a slinger, and he's NEVER used his legs particularly well.

mdep524
06-01-2004, 02:23 PM
Originally posted by bennyw41
No offense to you last few posters, but don't you think that if this was serious problem, or the main problem, someone in the organzation(mainly coop, or others) would have brought it to his attention. I think his mind is the ultimate mechanic that needs tweaking.

You're probably right, but I am just commenting on what I see, not on what the Sox organization and coaches are doing about it.

SoxFan76
06-01-2004, 02:41 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
HUH? These guys have access to the video from most of today's player's entire careers. In addition to being able to break down video and slow-mo of mechanics mid-game if desired.

There isn't much a good pitching coach is going to miss, let alone be looking for the answer from a message board.

Koch is a slinger, and he's NEVER used his legs particularly well.

Which was my whole point to begin with. If he wasn't using his legs, it wasn't going to go unnoticed by the coaches.

and Wanne, I wasn't trying to single you out, I was making a general comment.

Wanne
06-01-2004, 03:12 PM
No offense taken dude! That's why I come on to this site...to see what everybody thinks. I respect everybody's knowledgable and input. Great group to edify people on the sox in general.

Mohoney
06-01-2004, 03:16 PM
Originally posted by bennyw41
No offense to you last few posters, but don't you think that if this was serious problem, or the main problem, someone in the organzation(mainly coop, or others) would have brought it to his attention. I think his mind is the ultimate mechanic that needs tweaking.

If I had faith in Cooper, then yes.

I don't have faith in Cooper.

However, I think you're right about Koch's head. He needs to be de-Manuelized.

Dadawg_77
06-01-2004, 03:32 PM
Ever think his mechanics have been reshaped to increase his control? He was walking tons of people in Oakland and Toronto.

FarWestChicago
06-01-2004, 03:42 PM
Originally posted by Mohoney
If I had faith in Cooper, then yes.

I don't have faith in Cooper.

However, I think you're right about Koch's head. He needs to be de-Manuelized. Hey, aren't you the guy who was all drunk and ripping on Cooper the other night? Man, you really looked silly. :smile:

Randar68
06-01-2004, 03:43 PM
Originally posted by FarWestChicago
Hey, aren't you the guy who was all drunk and ripping on Cooper the other night? Man, you really looked silly. :smile:

The coherence of most of his mid-day posts has been questionable at best, FWC, why would you only assume he was drunk late at night?

OEO Magglio
06-01-2004, 04:01 PM
Originally posted by Mohoney
If I had faith in Cooper, then yes.

I don't have faith in Cooper.

However, I think you're right about Koch's head. He needs to be de-Manuelized.
How could you not have faith in Coop? The sox pitching rotation has been absolutely awesome since Don took over.

Randar68
06-01-2004, 04:02 PM
Originally posted by OEO Magglio
How could you not have faith in Coop? The sox pitching rotation has been absolutely awesome since Don took over.

Stop using logic, you're only going to get a headache... :D:

balz1472
06-01-2004, 04:03 PM
For anyone who has ever pitched before in their lives... yes, they do teach you to drive with your legs when you are young, but it is not easy to pick up after you have not been doing it for a while. I am sure that Coop probably has realized this problem, but he can only work with one problem at a time.
Koch's arm angle was the major problem before... now they have worked on that and he is coming around. The next thing he can work on is his leg drive. Realize folks, a guy cannot work on his mechanics in a game! He would need to be sent down to "fix" that problem and right now he has not f'd up too badly so there is no reason to crush his confidence any more.
Let the guy continue to progress. He looks a lot better now than he did earlier in the season.

fquaye149
06-01-2004, 05:22 PM
Originally posted by Mohoney
If I had faith in Cooper, then yes.

I don't have faith in Cooper.

However, I think you're right about Koch's head. He needs to be de-Manuelized.

a.) what in the world makes you doubt cooper? maybe i'm missing something (as usual)

b.) i'm not sure what manuel would have done to effect koch, considering his troubles (lost velocity) had already been a problem the first day of spring training

SpringfldFan
06-01-2004, 05:26 PM
Good point. I think it is inarguable that if he did drive more with his legs and bend his back then his mph would increase. So why hasn't he been told to? I would have to assume that in addition to the mph, it would also involve a few 56 foot pitches, a few more to the backstop, and possibly one or two in the bat boy's ear. In short, his gain in velocity might be offset by a loss in control since his muscle memory is completely different due decades of different mechanics.

jeremyb1
06-01-2004, 06:16 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
Ever think his mechanics have been reshaped to increase his control? He was walking tons of people in Oakland and Toronto.

Hmm. 9 BB's in 19 IP, I think you can add Chicago to that list.

FarWestChicago
06-01-2004, 06:18 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
The coherence of most of his mid-day posts has been questionable at best, FWC, why would you only assume he was drunk late at night? I was giving him the benefit of the doubt. :D: