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ndgt10
05-31-2004, 03:45 PM
:twinslose

ChiSox7
05-31-2004, 03:47 PM
Thank you CrimeDog!

PaleHoseGeorge
05-31-2004, 03:49 PM
:hawk
"I luv off days!"

TDog
05-31-2004, 03:49 PM
Twinks have already lost three games to the DRays. Some people around here didn't think that would be possible.

ChiSox7
05-31-2004, 03:53 PM
Originally posted by TDog
Twinks have already lost three games to the DRays. Some people around here didn't think that would be possible.

Considering they hadn't lost a game to the DRays since like 2001, I thought it was pretty remarkable that they won 1. The fact that TB has won 3 knocks me off my feet. Still, they get 5 more games against the Drays this year, while we get none. I hate the schedule makers.

doublem23
05-31-2004, 03:55 PM
The Twins aren't infallable? Who would have thunk it?

:boston
Not me! I don't know what's going on. By the way, I hear the Twins are working on a deal with Anaheim to get Vladimir Guerrero for their first round draft pick in 2028. I say pull the trigger!

TDog
05-31-2004, 03:57 PM
If they continue to play .250 ball against TB, I won't complain with the schedulemakers.

HomeFish
05-31-2004, 03:57 PM
Now if only the Astros can stage a comeback.

ChiSox7
05-31-2004, 03:59 PM
Originally posted by TDog
If they continue to play .250 ball against TB, I won't complain with the schedulemakers.

Unfortunately, I don't think we can count on that happening.

PaleHoseGeorge
05-31-2004, 04:00 PM
Originally posted by ChiSox7
Considering they hadn't lost a game to the DRays since like 2001, I thought it was pretty remarkable that they won 1. The fact that TB has won 3 knocks me off my feet. Still, they get 5 more games against the Drays this year, while we get none. I hate the schedule makers.

What? You're worried about the Twins playing 5 more games against a team they haven't beaten yet?
:?:

We're done with the Yankees. Will that help you take a step back from the brink?

As far as I'm concerned the Twins can keep playing Tampa everyday for the remainder of the year until they finally beat them. Regardless come late-September we'll have played identical records, and the only time the standings count is after the whole schedule is completed. That's late-September, too.

ChiSox7
05-31-2004, 04:03 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
What? You're worried about the Twins playing 5 more games against a team they haven't beaten yet?
:?:

We're done with the Yankees. Will that help you take a step back from the brink?

As far as I'm concerned the Twins can keep playing Tampa everyday for the remainder of the year until they finally beat them. Regardless come late-September we'll have played identical records, and the only time the standings count is after the whole schedule is completed. That's late-September, too.

They've already beaten them once :) And it's awesome that they still have to play the Yanks at the end of the year. I was speaking to the "throw in" games that are the extra games that teams have to play to even out the schedule.

For instance, they play Tampa Bay 9 times, while we have to play Oakland 9 times. We only got Tampa for 6, they only have 6 against Oakland. I'm doing a study on it to see if it shakes out as we speak though

But, they did indeed beat TB once.....unfortunately.

Cellview22
05-31-2004, 04:04 PM
Originally posted by HomeFish
Now if only the Astros can stage a comeback.

I sure hope they come back. I'm also watching the ESPN game and rooting for Cincy. I've all the sudden become a big fan of all the NL Central teams, with the exception of the Cubs of course :D: .

When there's no Sox game on, I have to find a game and root for someone.

HomeFish
05-31-2004, 04:05 PM
Unfotunately, the Reds and Astros are both losing. :(:

doublem23
05-31-2004, 04:06 PM
Originally posted by HomeFish
Unfotunately, the Reds and Astros are both losing. :(:

Who gives a rat's ass? The Sox picked up half a game without lifting a finger.

Today is a good day. :smile:

ChiSox7
05-31-2004, 04:08 PM
Originally posted by doublem23
Who gives a rat's ass? The Sox picked up half a game without lifting a finger.

Today is a good day. :smile:

Indeed :smile:

HomeFish
05-31-2004, 04:12 PM
Originally posted by doublem23

Today is a good day. :smile:

I disagree. No day on which the Cubs win can be a good day. It can be an okay day or even a fairly good day, but never good or great.

ChiSox7
05-31-2004, 04:13 PM
Originally posted by HomeFish
I disagree. No day on which the Cubs win can be a good day. It can be an okay day or even a fairly good day, but never good or great.

Awww CRAP. When did they move the Cubs to our division. Or our LEAGUE even. I can't believe I didn't hear about this. After all, that would be the only reason to care if the Cubs won or lost.

PaleHoseGeorge
05-31-2004, 04:14 PM
I think it is time to administer Last Rites to a pair of very sick Sox Fans.

Don't be afraid. Walk into the light...

doublem23
05-31-2004, 04:15 PM
Originally posted by HomeFish
I disagree. No day on which the Cubs win can be a good day. It can be an okay day or even a fairly good day, but never good or great.

I disagree. Any day the Cubs win can be a great day, the Sox just have to win (or Twins/second place has to lose).

HomeFish
05-31-2004, 04:17 PM
Originally posted by doublem23
I disagree. Any day the Cubs win can be a great day, the Sox just have to win (or Twins/second place has to lose).

I would argue there is a difference between good days and okay days during which good or great things happen and that you would be describing the latter.

ChiSox7
05-31-2004, 04:17 PM
Originally posted by doublem23
I disagree. Any day the Cubs win can be a great day, the Sox just have to win (or Twins/second place has to lose).

Seriously. I just think 2.5 sounds SO much better than 1.5. This is truly an awesome day!

TDog
05-31-2004, 04:18 PM
Originally posted by ChiSox7
...

For instance, they play Tampa Bay 9 times, while we have to play Oakland 9 times. We only got Tampa for 6, they only have 6 against Oakland. I'm doing a study on it to see if it shakes out as we speak though....

So the Sox need to have a better record vs. Oakland than the Twinks have against Tampa Bay and a better record against Tampa Bay than they do against Oakand to overcome this "handicap."

The Twinks lost 2 of three in Oakland (should have been 3 of 3, but A's blew one game with an error) and host the A's for 3 in August. They would have to sweep the series to match our record against the DRays.

As for us against Oakland, we just need to win, hopefully early and often.

Winning your games is what it's all about.

johnny_mostil
05-31-2004, 04:20 PM
Originally posted by TDog
Twinks have already lost three games to the DRays. Some people around here didn't think that would be possible.

The Twins don't really have competent starting pitching after Radke with Santana and Lohse pitching poorly. Silva got off to a roaring start and fooled a lot of people. They won 90 games last year by beating the absolute living Hades out of the bad teams. This year they just aren't doing that. For whatever reason, the new turf maybe, their defense has slipped dramatically this season.

Get a look at their error total, 41 already; they are the worst team in baseball at turning batted balls into outs, believe it or not. Playing Mike Cuddyer at second won't fix that.

Perhaps the Homerdome Magic is finally worn out.

voodoochile
05-31-2004, 04:20 PM
Originally posted by HomeFish
I disagree. No day on which the Cubs win can be a good day. It can be an okay day or even a fairly good day, but never good or great.

*****! YOU ARE INSANE!

Good grief, man, the Sox are 3 up in the loss column on Memorial day. Get over it. The Flubbies do not have anything to do with the Sox. It just doesn't matter except 6 times a year...

This was as good a day as the Sox can have from a division winning perspective. The rest is gravy, icing, cherrys or a second slice of pie. It's nice, but it isn't what really matters.

Of course you are so convinced the Twinkies are some unbeatable force of nature that I can understand why you hang your hat on other things. Everytime the Twinkies lose, something inside you dies. Thus you are left with nothing left to do but root for the flubbies to lose. It's really quite humorous and also quite disturbing...

batmanZoSo
05-31-2004, 04:22 PM
..this was supposed to be their cakewalk stretch. They still got six vs. the Yankees...that's 1-5 at best.

johnny_mostil
05-31-2004, 04:22 PM
Originally posted by TDog
The Twinks lost 2 of three in Oakland (should have been 3 of 3, but A's blew one game with an error)

You understate it. Bobby Crosby dropped a high lazy pop fly to lose the game. They didn't just blow it game, they fell on their swords, carpet-bombed their own dugout, and poisoned their own drinking fountain. That game was Exhibit A in my own personal "Why the heck do the Twins get so lucky all the time?" exhibit.

ChiSox7
05-31-2004, 04:23 PM
Originally posted by TDog
So the Sox need to have a better record vs. Oakland than the Twinks have against Tampa Bay and a better record against Tampa Bay than they do against Oakand to overcome this "handicap."

The Twinks lost 2 of three in Oakland (should have been 3 of 3, but A's blew one game with an error) and host the A's for 3 in August. They would have to sweep the series to match our record against the DRays.

As for us against Oakland, we just need to win, hopefully early and often.

Winning your games is what it's all about.

Oh yeah, definately. I jus tthought the differential was interesting. We play Oakland and Texas more, while Minny plays TB and Baltimore more. Those are the two oddities in the schedule, along with them playing Milwaukee and Arizona, while we play the Braves and Cubs. Just kinda interesting.

But we need to win and it will take care of itself.

johnny_mostil
05-31-2004, 04:24 PM
Originally posted by HomeFish
I disagree. No day on which the Cubs win can be a good day. It can be an okay day or even a fairly good day, but never good or great.

Why are you so worked up about minor league baseball

PaleHoseGeorge
05-31-2004, 04:30 PM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo
..this was supposed to be their cakewalk stretch. They still got six vs. the Yankees...that's 1-5 at best.

Yes, but the Sox still have games left to play against Detroit and you know Manuel's boys never beat them, not even when Jerry sets his rotation to beat them. It's no different than the Twins always beating the D-Rays. That's just the way it works.

Oh, and this can't be a great day because the Cubs didn't lose, not that they we're playing the White Sox... or that I could ever be confused with a Sox Fan, you understand.

nasox
05-31-2004, 04:31 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
*****! YOU ARE INSANE!



Personally, I wouldn't have put that in teal.

Realist
05-31-2004, 04:33 PM
Originally posted by HomeFish
I disagree. No day on which the Cubs win can be a good day. It can be an okay day or even a fairly good day, but never good or great.

If the Sox win and the Cubs lose it's a "perfect" day. If the Twins lose while the Sox are Idle, it's a "good" day regardless of what the Flubs do. The flubs can win 80 billion to 0 and it's still a "good" day. That's the fact... Jack.

ChiSox7
05-31-2004, 04:34 PM
Originally posted by Realist
If the Sox win and the Cubs lose it's a "perfect" day. If the Twins lose while the Sox are Idle, it's a "good" day regardless of what the Flubs do. The flubs can win 80 billion to 0 and it's still a "good" day. That's the fact... Jack.

I think it's a perfect day when the Twins lose and the Sox are idle or win until the Cubs come into our League or Division. Today is a perfect day. (Unless the Lakers win :smile: )

batmanZoSo
05-31-2004, 04:34 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Yes, but the Sox still have games left to play against Detroit and you know Manuel's boys never beat them, not even when Jerry sets his rotation to beat them. It's no different than the Twins always beating the D-Rays. That's just the way it works.

Oh, and this can't be a great day because the Cubs didn't lose, not that they we're playing the White Sox... or that I could ever be confused with a Sox Fan, you understand.

Did I make this a new thread or did you move it? :?: I thought I posted it in "twinks lose."

doublem23
05-31-2004, 04:35 PM
Maybe you hit the New Thread button istead of Post Reply? I do that a lot.

Cellview22
05-31-2004, 04:36 PM
Well, it's getting even more perfect. Cincinnati just went ahead..haha. :)

ChiSox7
05-31-2004, 04:36 PM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo
Did I make this a new thread or did you move it? :?: I thought I posted it in "twinks lose."

You made a new thread :smile: I thought you were confused. haha

PaleHoseGeorge
05-31-2004, 04:36 PM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo
Did I make this a new thread or did you move it? :?: I thought I posted it in "twinks lose."

Don't look at me. The "reply" and "new thread" buttons are right next to each other. It's easy to get them confused. Just ask Viva.
:smile:

voodoochile
05-31-2004, 04:39 PM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo
Did I make this a new thread or did you move it? :?: I thought I posted it in "twinks lose."

Fixed...

Brian26
05-31-2004, 05:10 PM
Is this our biggest first place lead since 2000? I can't remember the last time we had a 2.5 game lead. I don't think we ever got that far ahead last August or September.

CWSGuy406
05-31-2004, 05:15 PM
Originally posted by ChiSox7
Considering they hadn't lost a game to the DRays since like 2001, I thought it was pretty remarkable that they won 1. The fact that TB has won 3 knocks me off my feet. Still, they get 5 more games against the Drays this year, while we get none. I hate the schedule makers.

I don't get it. They get the D-Rays in mid-July for a two game set, meaning that the Twins play them eight times. Absolutely pointless IMO.

dickallen15
05-31-2004, 05:22 PM
Originally posted by ChiSox7
Considering they hadn't lost a game to the DRays since like 2001, I thought it was pretty remarkable that they won 1. The fact that TB has won 3 knocks me off my feet. Still, they get 5 more games against the Drays this year, while we get none. I hate the schedule makers.

This is true, but the Twins haven't played the Yankees yet, and the Sox are done with them. Tampa is playing much better lately.

jabrch
05-31-2004, 05:26 PM
Originally posted by HomeFish
I disagree. No day on which the Cubs win can be a good day. It can be an okay day or even a fairly good day, but never good or great.

Well that's nuts. As long as the Sox win, or gain ground on the division competition, I don't care about the Cubs one bit.

owensmouth
05-31-2004, 06:44 PM
What it sounds like is the Twins have begun their annual pre All Star Game funk. I hope it's deep and cold.

CHISOXFAN13
05-31-2004, 08:42 PM
Originally posted by Brian26
Is this our biggest first place lead since 2000? I can't remember the last time we had a 2.5 game lead. I don't think we ever got that far ahead last August or September.


I've been talking about that all day. IIRC, our biggest lead since 2000 was two games in September last season.

Why not make it 3.5 tomorrow night. Maybe the Twins will pull a White Flag trade then!!!

OEO Magglio
05-31-2004, 08:47 PM
Originally posted by HomeFish
I disagree. No day on which the Cubs win can be a good day. It can be an okay day or even a fairly good day, but never good or great.
Wow, I hate the cubs too but what your saying is ridiculous. The twins lost.... it's a good day, period.

MRKARNO
05-31-2004, 08:51 PM
Originally posted by Brian26
Is this our biggest first place lead since 2000? I can't remember the last time we had a 2.5 game lead. I don't think we ever got that far ahead last August or September.

Our largest lead in 2003 was 2 games which was matched many times. We have not held a 2.5 game lead or better at the end of any day since 2000

fhqwhgads
05-31-2004, 10:17 PM
Originally posted by CHISOXFAN13
Maybe the Twins will pull a White Flag trade then!!!

Shouldn't that be in deep pink? :D:

OEO Magglio
05-31-2004, 10:20 PM
Originally posted by fhqwhgads
Shouldn't that be in deep pink? :D:
Hey... where have you been, haven't been around much lately. :D:

elrod
05-31-2004, 10:35 PM
Face it. The Twins have been overperforming for a long time. They've been outscored by 17 runs yet are 3 over .500. That's ridiculous. They've been bombed a few times and have gotten lucky a few times (Oakland, Toronto). Other than Nathan their bullpen is not that great. It's not bad but not great; Roa and Rincon have been steady but overused and the others are subpar. And their starters, other than Radke, are really suffering. Greisinger is a mediocre #5. Lohse is not fooling anyone. Santana has lost command. And Silva is back to Earth, and has mentally imploded a few times. I could see Santana and Lohse turning it around but I wouldn't put my money on it. Especially Santana, who is a full-time starter for the first time. If they don't put up big runs then they will lose a bunch of games. It's ironic that they're struggling against the toilet of the American League but that's how things balance out. The Twinkie hitters are struggling and they're making uncharacteristic and costly errors. I suspect Mientkiewicz, Hunter and Jones will improve. Lew Ford will come back to Earth. And Stewart will come off the DL. That will be a net gain for their lineup. But with their pitching they may struggle even with a steady lineup.

I'm more concerned with how the Sox do than how Minnesota does. It's like Cleveland in 2000. The Indians were a decent team but not great. If the Sox faltered the Indians would be there to take the division (like they did from the Twins in 2001). But the Sox played a bit over .500 the second half of 2000 which was enough to win. I think the scenario is similar this year. If the Sox play as they are capable, they will win at least 95 games. If they falter, they will win as few as 83. The Twins will almost definitely end up with about 88 wins. I think their talent and chemistry warrant a projection of 88 wins. But will that be enough? It's up to the Sox who wins this division.

ma-gaga
06-01-2004, 01:31 AM
Originally posted by elrod
Face it. The Twins have been overperforming for a long time. They've been outscored by 17 runs yet are 3 over .500. That's ridiculous.
...
It's up to the Sox who wins this division.

It's pretty ugly in Twins land. The freaking D.Rays?!? Fred McGriff?!? gah. I think there's a lot to be said about the way they win games. They may finally finish at their pyth record this year. They've started to lose some close games.

I think it's the head-to-heads that'll decide the division. So far it's 3 games to 4.

elrod
06-01-2004, 01:37 AM
I think there's a lot to be said about the way they win games. They may finally finish at their pyth record this year. They've started to lose some close games.

My thinking on teams that consistently outperform their pythag is that they have solid bullpens and deep benches, not that they're lucky. That way they can put up good hitters late in the game and they can hold leads - all of which lead to winning close games. Of course they also have to have some inconsistency from their starting pitching - enough to get blown out a few times. That's been the story of the Twins. But with injuries their bench is less impressive over the long term. And after Nathan their bullpen isn't as solid as prior years. All of which mean they'll return to their pythag numbers. And for the Twins, they ain't pretty.

elrod
06-01-2004, 02:20 AM
Adding to my last post about bullpen strength being a big reason for beating your pythag, the two Rs - Roa and Rincon - are probably the chief reasons for the Twins' success in tight games so far. Neither has ever pitched this much before so they could falter as the season goes on but they are the bridge to Nathan. Juan Rincon has won 6 games in relief! They tell the whole story:

Opening Day vs. Cleveland 4/7: Twins score 4 in the 8th to tie and 3 in the 11th to win. Rincon is 1-0

4/16 vs. KC - Rincon actually blows a lead in the 7th and gets the win, 9-7. Rincon is 2-0.

4/27 vs. Toronto - Twins come from behind and win 7-4 by scoring 2 in the eighth and 4 in the ninth. Rincon slams the door the last two innings and goes 3-0.

4/28 vs. Toronto - Rincon allows an inherited runner to score (Romero's) but wins when the Twins score 4 in the bottom of the 8th.
Rincon goes 4-0.

5/1 vs. Anaheim - The Rincon magic wears out as he gives up a 9th inning run to lose 1-0. Rincon is 4-1.

5/6 at Seattle - Rincon gives up go-ahead run to Seattle in Garcia-Radke pitcher's duel. Rincon is 4-2.

5/14 at Chicago - Rincon slams the door after Marte blows 8th inning lead. Rincon goes 5-2.

5/17 at Toronto - After another Romero meltdown, Rincon holds the Jays in check (5Ks in 1.2IP) as the Twins score 4 in the 9th. Rincon is 6-2.

5/28 at KC - Gives up 9th inning run to lose game after another Radke gem. Rincon is 6-3.

Just looking at Rincon's outings you get a good picture of the Twins season. Lots of late-inning comebacks nailed down by Rincon. You can't come from behind unless your bullpen keeps you in the game. That's the difference between KC and Twins. The pattern seems to be: Twins get a small early lead. JC Romero blows the lead. Rincon shuts the door on the rally. The Twins score multiple late-inning runs after Rincon's appearance to take the lead. Nathan closes.

Rincon has a couple blown leads and losses in there too. He's no Guillermo Mota. But much more good (for the Twins) than bad. Couple Rincon with a very consistent bench you get lots of come from behind wins. Now can the Twins keep performing in late innings the way they do? Statistically it would make sense that their hitters would either improve in the first six innings, or they'll begin to falter in the late innings. Injuries have an impact too. Some of the magic may be wearing off lately as evidenced in the loss tonight to the D-Rays. They had a rally late but couldn't tie the game, before the D-Rays added insurance (no Rincon tonight). While Rincon and Roa (and Nathan, of course) are still solid, the others in the pen are awful. Fultz gets worse each outing. Mulholland is terrible. Romero is pathetic. And then there's Grant Balfour. What is Grant Balfour doing in the major leagues? He is the worst mop-up man I've seen. It was against Balfour that the Sox blew open the 8-run inning last week. He is utterly worthless and he appears almost every time the Twins are trailing.

fhqwhgads
06-01-2004, 01:44 PM
Originally posted by OEO Magglio
Hey... where have you been, haven't been around much lately. :D:

Hey OEO, I've been around. I just haven't felt like interrupting you guys' revelry much. :lurkers

Enjoy it while the enjoying's enjoyable. :D:

CHISOXFAN13
06-01-2004, 01:53 PM
Originally posted by fhqwhgads
Hey OEO, I've been around. I just haven't felt like interrupting you guys' revelry much. :lurkers

Enjoy it while the enjoying's enjoyable. :D:

Should be a fun five months then!!! :D:

ma-gaga
06-01-2004, 04:26 PM
Originally posted by elrod
Statistically it would make sense that their hitters would either improve in the first six innings, or they'll begin to falter in the late innings. Injuries have an impact too. Some of the magic may be wearing off lately as evidenced in the loss tonight to the D-Rays.
...
And then there's Grant Balfour. What is Grant Balfour doing in the major leagues? He is the worst mop-up man I've seen. It was against Balfour that the Sox blew open the 8-run inning last week. He is utterly worthless and he appears almost every time the Twins are trailing.

Wow. You've hit the nail on the head and explained it much better than I could. I agree, they've outplayed their injuries, and they are starting to run out of adrenaline. They need their starters back QUICKLY if they want to compete. Otherwise this division race could be over.

Balfour has that sparkling 12+ k/9 ratio in AAA. Tell me that you don't want to see that in a reliever. The Twins relief corps has taken some hits, leading ME to believe that bullpens are a little tougher to put together than the stat mentality says. They lost B.Thomas to the Red Sox, they lost M.Nakumura to Toronto, they'll probably lose G.Balfour to the A's after this year when he get's cut... See any pattern here?!? They have the AAA talent with great "k" rates, but they haven't made the jump to MLB.

The Twins have 3 solid relievers. That's really all you need for most close games. Santana/Lohse should get better, Silva/Gresinger should get worse. Radke is performing at his typical level. I don't think he's going to change much... Not overpowering, solid all around pitcher.

The most disturbing sign for the Twins fans, is their "signature" defense isn't there. They need to pick it up. Maybe Torii peaked 2 years ago. Maybe Mientkiewicz can't do what he used to do. Koskie's back limits his games, Cuddyer at second base? Blanco behind the plate? Guzman has never been a defensive SS. There are obvious problems all around. That disturbs me more than anything else, the defense starting to disappear. They don't have the power hitters to absorb the loss of their defense. The DIPS believer in me says it'll even out, but it's June 1 already. It's no longer "early" and the season is starting to slip away...

:)

OEO Magglio
06-01-2004, 04:30 PM
Originally posted by fhqwhgads
Hey OEO, I've been around. I just haven't felt like interrupting you guys' revelry much. :lurkers

Enjoy it while the enjoying's enjoyable. :D:
I'm just joking with you fhgwfrheahgoeaohgdoahsl. :)

Skorch
06-01-2004, 10:48 PM
Originally posted by elrod
What is Grant Balfour doing in the major leagues? He is the worst mop-up man I've seen. It was against Balfour that the Sox blew open the 8-run inning last week. He is utterly worthless and he appears almost every time the Twins are trailing.

I was at the Sunday White Sox shellacking of the Twins at the Metrodome (as well as the Friday one). When Balfour came in with two runners on and the Twins clinging to a one run lead after Santana gave up back to back homers I said "Uh-oh". A buddy I went with said "Is this bad?" and my only reply was "The White Sox are about to take a two-run lead." Leave it to me to be that optimistic about it. That game was the only time I've ever left a Twins game early, and I've sat through some lousy baseball.

The problem with Balfour is that he's out of options so he can't go back to the minors or we risk losing him on waivers, but he has a lot of promise so he's left with doing his rehab assignment in meaningful games. Tonight's pasting of the Rays would have been the perfect time to bring him in to try and get his pitches working against live batters if he hadn't pitched yesterday. Maybe tomorrow, as the Rays are sending out a rookie tomorrow who hasn't been very sharp to this point.