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chisox1388
05-31-2004, 03:17 PM
Now, Maggs is easily our best player and would be essential if we want to make a run this year. But if the reports that he turned down that contract are true, i think we should deal him at the deadline and give borchard and reed a chance in center and right. We could get a ton for Maggs, probably from the Mets. So I'm thinking something along the lines of:

Sox trade Maggs to Mets for:

Scott Kazmir LHP(Class AA), David Wright 3B(Class AA), and Lastings Milledge OF(Class A).

The rankings in the Mets organizaton is Kazmir is 1, Wright is 3, and Milledge is 8. I think this would be a great trade for the Sox as both Kazmir and Wright will probably be ready for next year and Milledge by 2006. I would bring Borchard immediately and se if he can play, and bring up Reed in September. I would then send Joe Crede to Montreal for Livan Hernandez straight up. You move Valentin to 3rd for the rest of the year, and when his contract is up after this year, you bring up Wright for next year. Hernandez qould be a perfect number 3 for us, making our rotation one of the best in the league. I know alot of people don't want to trade Maggs, and trust me neither do I, but he's being unreasoable and is not gonna come back. This way we're still a contender and we've gotten a whole beter for next year.

Ok, rip into me now.

HomeFish
05-31-2004, 03:22 PM
Is there any greater punishment for a major leaguer than being forced to play for the Mets? Has Magglio's contract refusal offended us THAT much?

doublem23
05-31-2004, 03:22 PM
OK, I'm going to say this one last time...

There is no reason to trade Magglio for prospects this year. If you haven't noticed, we're doing quite well and the Sox should not consider any trade for Magglio unless it clearly helps us at the Major League level right now. We are not in a firesale and have no reason to dump out star while in first place. That is utterly riduculous.

At the end of the year, we'll see where we are. Maggs has never said that he doesn't want to play here and some reports have the two very close to a deal. You never know; if the team does well, makes the postseason and shows some promise, maybe Magglio will drop his asking price to stay in Chicago and play for a winner. And, at worst, if he walks, we'll get the compensation picks for him.

But again, right now, it is STUPID to trade him for prospects.

Rex Hudler
05-31-2004, 03:34 PM
If the Sox are 8 games out of first place at the deadline, then you could trade him. I don't see that happening however.

Also, there is NO WAY IN HELL the Mets would give up those three players for Maggs.

soxwon
05-31-2004, 03:36 PM
there is no way we will win the division without maggs.
he is white sox baseball.
he will resign, with us.
do not upset the chemistry.

habibharu
05-31-2004, 03:39 PM
maggs is white sox baseball???????!!!!! what the hell is wrong with you people! do you forget that there is this guy named frank thomas who is the all time sox leader in a lot of offense catagories? what the hell has maggs ever done!??

doublem23
05-31-2004, 03:42 PM
Originally posted by habibharu
what the hell has maggs ever done!??

Be the team's most consistent hitter over the last 4-5 years. That deserves some respect.

I agree saying "Maggs is White Sox baseball" is a bit over the top, but so is saying, "what has Maggs ever done?"

jabrch
05-31-2004, 03:47 PM
We have a good enough cahnce to win this year - so I wouldn't trade him for prospects. But at the same time, if he actually turned down 5/70 - I will boo him every time I see him after he is gone.

habibharu
05-31-2004, 03:48 PM
how bout trading maggs for garcia and a top prospect?

lowesox
05-31-2004, 03:49 PM
You know what: I don't think it's that stupid. First of all: doubleM, you mention that there is speculation that Ordonez is close - well, Williams should know if that's true or not. If it's true, by all means, keep Maggs. If not, let's make a deal.

The truth is, even after the Sox have gotten off to a good start, I'm still not convinced they're world series caliber just yet. If we kept maggs and didn't make the playoffs, or lost in the first round it would be a HUGE mistake. Especially when you consider that we've done pretty good the last week or so without him.

I'm not saying that I'm 100% for trading Maggs - I think it would be a bit of a PR nightmare. Although, if we were to deal Maggs and then pick up somebody else like a Carl Everett for a lower cost, it might be a smart move. And it is by now means Stupid.

doublem23
05-31-2004, 03:50 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
We have a good enough cahnce to win this year - so I wouldn't trade him for prospects. But at the same time, if he actually turned down 5/70 - I will boo him every time I see him after he is gone.

Maybe, but he's said he wants 6 years guaranteed... I think a guy like Magglio has earned the right to ask for another year if he wants. I don't think money is the problem.

Considering the way the Sox have handled their free agents, anyways, I will give Magglio the benefit of the doubt until I hear the whole story. I think most of this Magglio hates us bull**** is nothing more than a way for most of you guys to overreact and be overly pessimistic since the team is playing so well.

doublem23
05-31-2004, 03:53 PM
Originally posted by lowesox
You know what: I don't think it's that stupid. First of all: doubleM, you mention that there is speculation that Ordonez is close - well, Williams should know if that's true or not. If it's true, by all means, keep Maggs. If not, let's make a deal.

The truth is, even after the Sox have gotten off to a good start, I'm still not convinced they're world series caliber just yet. If we kept maggs and didn't make the playoffs, or lost in the first round it would be a HUGE mistake. Especially when you consider that we've done pretty good the last week or so without him.

I'm not saying that I'm 100% for trading Maggs - I think it would be a bit of a PR nightmare. Although, if we were to deal Maggs and then pick up somebody else like a Carl Everett for a lower cost, it might be a smart move. And it is by now means Stupid.

No, it is stupid. The Sox have been in this position only a handful of times in the last couple of decades. I want to see the Sox win. If you want to see them remain stalled in a never-ending program of rebuilding, that's fine with me. I want to win.

Trading Magglio is stupid... unless you upgrade the White Sox on the Major Leauge level for the present.

jabrch
05-31-2004, 03:58 PM
Originally posted by doublem23
Maybe, but he's said he wants 6 years guaranteed... I think a guy like Magglio has earned the right to ask for another year if he wants. I don't think money is the problem.

He has the right to ask for anything he wants - but if he turns down 5/70 cuz he wants one more year he is a greedy selfish bastard and I wouldn't miss him one bit. Teams can't insure player contracts past 5 years. It's not a smart risk for any team to take. I like Magglio a lot. I wore my Magglio jersey today in Cleveland. But if he walks away from 5/70 he can go rot in NY as far as I am concerned. If that's the case, that he wants 6/85, then he never WANTED to stay with the Sox to begin with.

IFF he turned down 5/70, and leaves to go elsewhere, it will just give me one more player to boo mercilessly.

soxtalker
05-31-2004, 04:09 PM
Originally posted by habibharu
how bout trading maggs for garcia and a top prospect?

Put yourself in the shoes of the Mariners GM. Why would you ever consider this? They are about 10 games out. They don't expect to win this year. They want to receive prospects -- not give them up.

soxtalker
05-31-2004, 04:16 PM
Originally posted by chisox1388
Now, Maggs is easily our best player and would be essential if we want to make a run this year. But if the reports that he turned down that contract are true, i think we should deal him at the deadline and give borchard and reed a chance in center and right. We could get a ton for Maggs, probably from the Mets. So I'm thinking something along the lines of:

Sox trade Maggs to Mets for:

Scott Kazmir LHP(Class AA), David Wright 3B(Class AA), and Lastings Milledge OF(Class A).

The rankings in the Mets organizaton is Kazmir is 1, Wright is 3, and Milledge is 8. I think this would be a great trade for the Sox as both Kazmir and Wright will probably be ready for next year and Milledge by 2006. I would bring Borchard immediately and se if he can play, and bring up Reed in September. I would then send Joe Crede to Montreal for Livan Hernandez straight up. You move Valentin to 3rd for the rest of the year, and when his contract is up after this year, you bring up Wright for next year. Hernandez qould be a perfect number 3 for us, making our rotation one of the best in the league. I know alot of people don't want to trade Maggs, and trust me neither do I, but he's being unreasoable and is not gonna come back. This way we're still a contender and we've gotten a whole beter for next year.

Ok, rip into me now.

Well, I'll be one of the very few on this board who would love to see this deal -- at least the part about Maggs going for a group of top prospects. That's if KW is at the point where he knows he won't be able to sign Maggs. (I'm guessing that KW will have a pretty good sense of that before the trading deadline.)

Having said that, I agree with Rex's comment about the Mets. Even though they are still in the race, I can't see them giving up a bunch of their top prospects for Maggs (as much as they might like to have him). Also, as much as KW may have confidence in Reed and Borchard, I have a hard time seeing him shipping Maggs out for prospects.

While it has no chance, this certainly provokes comments on an off day.

beckett21
05-31-2004, 04:27 PM
Originally posted by doublem23
No, it is stupid. The Sox have been in this position only a handful of times in the last couple of decades. I want to see the Sox win. If you want to see them remain stalled in a never-ending program of rebuilding, that's fine with me. I want to win.

Trading Magglio is stupid... unless you upgrade the White Sox on the Major Leauge level for the present.

So true.

Maggs gives us the best chance to win THIS YEAR.

If we lose him, we lose him. Frees up a lot of payroll, and there are some nice free agents coming down the pike.

I too am tired of the perpetual rebuilding. Trading Maggs for prospects who haven't done a damn thing at the major league level makes no sense for a team serious about contending for anything other than the #1 overall draft pick.

batmanZoSo
05-31-2004, 04:57 PM
:threadsucks

CWSGuy406
05-31-2004, 05:04 PM
Originally posted by soxtalker
Put yourself in the shoes of the Mariners GM. Why would you ever consider this? They are about 10 games out. They don't expect to win this year. They want to receive prospects -- not give them up.

The Ms GM has stated that if he's going to trade, he wants guys in their prime who could play next year, not prospects...

doublem23
05-31-2004, 05:07 PM
Originally posted by CWSGuy406
The Ms GM has stated that if he's going to trade, he wants guys in their prime who could play next year, not prospects...

I don't know who he thinks he's going to get to give them players in their prime. This guy really is an idiot.

kittle42
05-31-2004, 06:23 PM
Originally posted by doublem23

Trading Magglio is stupid... unless you upgrade the White Sox on the Major Leauge level for the present.

Doublem,

Can we officially start the "Fans that have chosen to act like we are IN FIRST PLACE IN A CRAPPY DIVISION WITH NO REASON WE CAN'T MAKE THE PLAYOFFS" Club?

lowesox
05-31-2004, 06:41 PM
This thread only sucks if you think the sox are easy money to win the world series. If not, it's something worth thinking about. Because it would really suck to have Maggs leave and get nothing at all for him.

Keep in mind, trading Maggs doesn't necessarily need to mean throwing in the towel. We could trade him for a younger player who's in the majors right now. I know there was some talk about Maggs for Mulder. Personally, I doubt that would ever happen, but if KW could find a similar deal, and Maggs isn't signing on that dotted line it might be stupid not to trade him.

doublem23
05-31-2004, 07:09 PM
Originally posted by lowesox
This thread only sucks if you think the sox are easy money to win the world series. If not, it's something worth thinking about. Because it would really suck to have Maggs leave and get nothing at all for him.

Keep in mind, trading Maggs doesn't necessarily need to mean throwing in the towel. We could trade him for a younger player who's in the majors right now. I know there was some talk about Maggs for Mulder. Personally, I doubt that would ever happen, but if KW could find a similar deal, and Maggs isn't signing on that dotted line it might be stupid not to trade him.

I don't think the Sox are easy money, but if the Cubs taught us anything last year, all you have to do is get into the play-offs and who knows what could happen?

Again... Trading Maggs is stupid unless you significantly upgrade the Major League team. Even if he walks at the end of the year, he will most certainly be an "A" free agent and get us a nice draft pick.

The Sox haven't won a World Series since 1917. I'll take any chance we have. This honestly is the most ridiculous thread I've ever read.

kojak
05-31-2004, 07:34 PM
Magglio Ordonez is the type of steady, productive prescence which teams rally around in the post-season. If anyone thinks that we are going to the World Series without him (or someone of his ilk), then they are delusional.

Teams trade for youth when they are rebuilding or throwing up a white flag, not when they have the best record in the league (well, ok- we do have the best record in the National League)

If the White Sox crush all opposition this season and win the World Series and Ordonez then walks away via free agency, then I can live with that. I just pray that KW feels the same way. I think he has the cajones to make that gamble....

kittle42
05-31-2004, 07:37 PM
Originally posted by lowesox
This thread only sucks if you think the sox are easy money to win the world series. If not, it's something worth thinking about. Because it would really suck to have Maggs leave and get nothing at all for him.

:reinsy
"We are only two and a half games up. There is no way we can catch the Twins. Wait, we're up? Um.....there is no way we can last past the first round of the playoffs. And don't tell me fans don't love white flag-type trades...lowesox does!"

Clarkdog
05-31-2004, 08:45 PM
I as a Sox fan would hate to see Magglio go. He is a fantastic player. But the reported offer he turned down is pretty rich - and for a player who has not won an MVP to be asking for as much or more as those that have (Tejada) or should have (with no Bonds, Guerrero wins one in the NL in the last three years) - just doesn't hold water for me. The liklihood of his resigning him appears slim, although I still hold out hope.

But if there is the potential for improving the club now - you have to consider it. That is what this thread is proposing. We are 2 1/2 game up on the Twins - and we need pitching. So I submit this for the forum's consideration.

Here is a whisper I found for the NY Post:
Always looking to manage its payroll, Oakland is excited that prospect Joe Blanton may soon follow Rich Harden into the rotation. That, according to someone familiar with the A's thinking, could motivate the A's to deal one of their big three starters for a bat (at the deadline or, more likely, in the offseason), and Barry Zito is the likeliest candidate. Asked why he thought Zito had struggled this year, a member of the organization said, "Rick Peterson isn't the pitching coach anymore."

A trade idea:
Magglio Ordonez and PTBNL to Oakland for
Barry Zito and Bobby Kielty
Each team would pay the remaining season salary of the traded player - i.e. Sox would pay Ordonez, A's would pay Zito/Kielty until the end of the season.

Zito is under contract through 2006. Kielty is arbitration eligible.

I feel this trade improves the team - it is not addition by subtraction. It gives the White Sox argurably the best starting staff in the AL. Kielty is a switch-hitting versitile player who could benefit by being in a lineup with more power than the A's currently have.

A. Cavatica
05-31-2004, 09:37 PM
I like the Mets rumors. I would hate to trade Maggs, but if we can get Royce Ring back...

Mohoney
05-31-2004, 10:03 PM
Originally posted by habibharu
how bout trading maggs for garcia and a top prospect?

How about waiting until July and giving up NO major league talent for Garcia?

Seattle will have to take prospects for him in July. They won't be in position to be greedy.

We need to add a pitcher WITHOUT subtracting major league talent. That's what upper echelon teams do.

We just need to bite the bullet and give up some top prospects.

lowesox
05-31-2004, 10:04 PM
Originally posted by kojak
If the White Sox crush all opposition this season and win the World Series and Ordonez then walks away via free agency, then I can live with that.

I agree 100%. But how likely is that? What we have right now is a good young team. What I'm a proponent of is considering a deal that would not weaken this year's team - but would help next year's. Something along the line of the Mark Mulder scenario.

Originally posted by kojak
"We are only two and a half games up. There is no way we can catch the Twins. Wait, we're up? Um.....there is no way we can last past the first round of the playoffs. And don't tell me fans don't love white flag-type trades...lowesox does!"

Your post is silly. Never have I supported a surrender type trade. I've endorsed a deal (or a series of deals) that would maintain the level of talent on this year's team - but in a way that ensures we don't get left with nothing when Maggs heads for the bronx.

Nellie Comiskey
05-31-2004, 10:11 PM
This is not even on the table and a mute point. Regardless of his contract situation he's a chisox for 2004. Even though I liked the trades last season(Alomar & Everett) it turned out to be a bust mainly because of Manuel. The Sox cannot continue to trade top prospects and be competitive in the future. If the sox stay injury-free and continue the offensive onslaught, yes make a trade in July(but not Maggs). Upgrade the team with a decent starting pitcher(a la Tim Belcher in 1993) but not for a stud, because it will cost the Sox literally the Farm. :o:

OEO Magglio
05-31-2004, 10:15 PM
Originally posted by Nellie Comiskey
Even though I liked the trades last season(Alomar & Everett) it turned out to be a bust mainly because of Manuel. The Sox cannot continue to trade top prospects and be competitive in the future.
Well it's a good thing the sox didn't give up any top prospects last year for Carl and Robbie.

elrod
05-31-2004, 10:16 PM
I think the Mets wouldn't pull that trade off. I thought they might yesterday but I've thought about it and I think the Mets have really decided to develop internally. From 2000-2002 they dumped all their prospects for free agents and came out miserably. They were the worse team money could buy. Huge payroll for a last-place team. Finally they fired Steve Phillips. Jim Duquette, the new GM, has reversed course and tried to replenish the farm system. The plan in NY is Wright at 3B, Matsui at SS, Reyes at 2B, Piazza at 1B, Phillips at C, Cameron at CF, Floyd at RF and somebody else in LF. At pitcher they've got Peterson and Kazmir to look forward to and Glavine and Trachsel are pitching great. The problem is Reyes is hurt and the back end of their rotation stinks (you think we have probems at the five spot, the Mets have problems at the four and five spot, though Ginter may be an answer). They're actually weakest in the outfield so Maggs would look attractive to them. But they've really decided to load up on top prospects without dealing them. They would love to sign Maggs as a FA. In fact they probably would be the #1 team to do so if he becomes a FA. But I don't see them trading top guys, especially pitchers.

doublem23
05-31-2004, 10:16 PM
You can trade away talent from your farm, you just have to trade players from your organizational strengths (For the Sox, outfield).

CWSGuy406
05-31-2004, 10:18 PM
Originally posted by kittle42
Doublem,

Can we officially start the "Fans that have chosen to act like we are IN FIRST PLACE IN A CRAPPY DIVISION WITH NO REASON WE CAN'T MAKE THE PLAYOFFS" Club?

Kittle, can I join? Prospects are just that, prospects. Sure they might be good, but why trade a good thing? Anyways, if we don't get Mags, we still get two compensatory (sp?) picks that will be fairly high.

My gosh, guys. Don't tell me that a Ross Gload/Aaron Rowand platoon or even calling up Reed/Borchard will bring anywhere near the production/presence Maggs brings? Can't we just enjoy being ahead in the division by two games without ruining it? We should be talking about adding superstars like Maggs to our team, but some of you talking about giving away Mags? "Well, next year these guys will be awesome." Don't tell me about next year. If we dealt Maggs this year, we better get a damn good pitcher and a productive left handed bat in the lineup. Anything else isn't worth it...

beckett21
05-31-2004, 10:21 PM
Originally posted by Clarkdog
I as a Sox fan would hate to see Magglio go. He is a fantastic player. But the reported offer he turned down is pretty rich - and for a player who has not won an MVP to be asking for as much or more as those that have (Tejada) or should have (with no Bonds, Guerrero wins one in the NL in the last three years) - just doesn't hold water for me. The liklihood of his resigning him appears slim, although I still hold out hope.

But if there is the potential for improving the club now - you have to consider it. That is what this thread is proposing. We are 2 1/2 game up on the Twins - and we need pitching. So I submit this for the forum's consideration.

Here is a whisper I found for the NY Post:
Always looking to manage its payroll, Oakland is excited that prospect Joe Blanton may soon follow Rich Harden into the rotation. That, according to someone familiar with the A's thinking, could motivate the A's to deal one of their big three starters for a bat (at the deadline or, more likely, in the offseason), and Barry Zito is the likeliest candidate. Asked why he thought Zito had struggled this year, a member of the organization said, "Rick Peterson isn't the pitching coach anymore."

A trade idea:
Magglio Ordonez and PTBNL to Oakland for
Barry Zito and Bobby Kielty
Each team would pay the remaining season salary of the traded player - i.e. Sox would pay Ordonez, A's would pay Zito/Kielty until the end of the season.

Zito is under contract through 2006. Kielty is arbitration eligible.

I feel this trade improves the team - it is not addition by subtraction. It gives the White Sox argurably the best starting staff in the AL. Kielty is a switch-hitting versitile player who could benefit by being in a lineup with more power than the A's currently have.

Tell you what, my first impression is that this isn't half bad. The only problem I see is why would Oakland trade Zito for a rent-a-player, which is what Maggs would be.

Looks like a good deal for us on the surface, but I really can't see why the A's would do this one. If they are contending, they won't want to part with one of their aces; if they are not, then what would they want Maggs for, although according to your plan we would still be paying his salary.

Given the alternatives, we are probably still best off keeping Maggs for the rest of the season. This is a good idea, but unless I'm missing something (which is possible) I don't see where it would happen. I do like it though.

Clarkdog
06-01-2004, 09:18 AM
Originally posted by beckett21
Tell you what, my first impression is that this isn't half bad. The only problem I see is why would Oakland trade Zito for a rent-a-player, which is what Maggs would be.

Looks like a good deal for us on the surface, but I really can't see why the A's would do this one. If they are contending, they won't want to part with one of their aces; if they are not, then what would they want Maggs for, although according to your plan we would still be paying his salary.

Given the alternatives, we are probably still best off keeping Maggs for the rest of the season. This is a good idea, but unless I'm missing something (which is possible) I don't see where it would happen. I do like it though.

I agree its' a longshot. I too think Maggs will finish out the season with the Sox.

I guess what made me think of it was the fact that the A's are looking to manage payroll - but that Beane is currently looking for a bat. The A's are not scoring runs. So he may have to gamble that sacrificing some pitching (Zito) and replacing it with a high-level prospect (Blanton) will net him more offense through trade(Ordonez) and more wins. For the Sox its the same gamble in reverse - Sacrifice some offense (Ordonez) and replace it with a serviceable player/prospect (Kielty/Borchard?) while strengthening the pitching staff (Zito) to lead to more wins. What tips the scales to the Sox is that Zito is still under contract for two more seasons at a fairly reasonable rate.

Deadguy
06-01-2004, 12:24 PM
Originally posted by doublem23
OK, I'm going to say this one last time...

There is no reason to trade Magglio for prospects this year. If you haven't noticed, we're doing quite well and the Sox should not consider any trade for Magglio unless it clearly helps us at the Major League level right now. We are not in a firesale and have no reason to dump out star while in first place. That is utterly riduculous.


Exactly. There's a reason that Oakland held on to Giambi and Tejada despite the fact that they knew that neither would resign with the club.

Magglio's value for the rest of the season (and hopefully the playoffs) is far greater than anything we can receive in return.

Grobber33
06-01-2004, 02:02 PM
This(a trade for Maggs)will NOT happen. Period,but if you want to know my reasons, www.grobber.com 5th paragraph on the home page. Relax,he's not going anywhere this season,and I still would bet they'll sign him.

mdep524
06-01-2004, 02:20 PM
You guys are all barking up the wrong tree with this "trade Maggs" talk. If you actually stop to think about it, it makes absolutely no sense.

The facts
-The only teams interested in Maggs this season would be serious contenders THIS YEAR. Teams out of the race have no use for a rent-a-player.

-The Sox themselves ARE serious contenders!

I can't belive some people want to trade Magglio soley because he is in his contract year and might walk, and yet several of these same people have no problem trading FOR Freddie Garcia or Carlos Beltran who are in the same situation!! I mean, I bet if Magglio were on the Mets right now and we had a hole in RF, people would be saying "we should trade for that Magglio Ordonez guy from the Mets to put us over the top this year."

mdep524
06-01-2004, 02:29 PM
Also, the much smarter bet for teams OUT OF THE RACE would be to trade CLee, a guy under contract for a few seasons. That's a guy teams in the race (like Oakland, LA, San Diego) AND teams out of the race (Mets, Mariners) would be interested in.

It goes without saying (even though it's been reiterated 12,000 times in this thread) that the Sox won't make a trade that doesn't improve their team on the field right now. Something involving Lee for Zito or Mulder is a good deal for both teams (though the Sox would have to include more on their end to get Mulder).