PDA

View Full Version : Williams to poll players on Rauch


Saracen
05-30-2004, 06:32 PM
Link (http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-040530soxside,1,4789020.story?coll=cs-home-headlines)

Quotes:
``He left me a message and spoke to Don Cooper and Rick Hahn, saying there was a misunderstanding. I don't know what the misunderstanding can be - it's a long-standing rule that you stick around until the end of the ballgame,'' Williams said Sunday.

``At this time ,if anyone has the question of whether I still mean what I said, I think the answer to that is I'm not exactly sure of and won't be sure of until I go out and get the pulse of the guys in the clubhouse, his teammates, (see) how they feel,'' Williams said.

CubKilla
05-30-2004, 06:36 PM
Sounds like KW is backtracking after he ran his mouth and will now probably get nothing of value offered up for Rauch if he did want to trade him. Only way Rauch goes for a big name now is if he's included in a muti-player deal.

PaleHoseGeorge
05-30-2004, 06:39 PM
Will Kenny Williams please, Please, PLEASE just shut the **** up already? By talking to the media somemore today he only keeps this stupid episode in the media another day longer.

It's over! Rauch is gone, probably for good. If Williams has any fence-mending to do, he should at least be smart enough to do it in private, not in the media.

SEALgep
05-30-2004, 07:29 PM
Originally posted by CubKilla
Only way Rauch goes for a big name now is if he's included in a muti-player deal. That was always the case.

voodoochile
05-30-2004, 07:54 PM
Sounds like Kenny woke up. I have no problem with him backtracking. It could help trade value and bring the team even closer together.

Lip Man 1
05-30-2004, 09:28 PM
I think it's a mistake for any General Manager to start 'polling' players under any circumstances.

The GM runs the club not the players.

Rauch is gone. Like Williams said the pitcher stays and everybody knows it.

If Williams does poll the players he should do so with the understanding that he has 51% of the vote.

Lip

CubKilla
05-30-2004, 10:53 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
That was always the case.

Not necessarily. Have you forgotten some of the gems KW traded for when he was first named GM? Can't say that another bonehead wouldn't be appointed GM for another team anytime soon.

rahulsekhar
05-30-2004, 11:48 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
I think it's a mistake for any General Manager to start 'polling' players under any circumstances.

The GM runs the club not the players.

Rauch is gone. Like Williams said the pitcher stays and everybody knows it.

If Williams does poll the players he should do so with the understanding that he has 51% of the vote.

Lip

The version of that quote that I saw said that before Rauch could ever get called up again KW would have to poll the clubhouse. Not whether he could still be in the Sox organization or anything.

IMO, when a marginal prospect creates such bad chemistry and bad feelings in the clubhouse, it's 100% warranted for the GM to "check the pulse" and see if the guys will accept him back in.

Especially since my guess is that he'll go to some key guys first and if he really thinks Rauch has somehow turned things around, will enlist some clubhouse leaders to help diffuse any bad feelings

But it's all moot: unfortunately, it appears as if the Torn Labrum has claimed another victim (not to be confused with WSI's own TornLabrum).

beckett21
05-31-2004, 12:08 AM
Originally posted by rahulsekhar
The version of that quote that I saw said that before Rauch could ever get called up again KW would have to poll the clubhouse. Not whether he could still be in the Sox organization or anything.

IMO, when a marginal prospect creates such bad chemistry and bad feelings in the clubhouse, it's 100% warranted for the GM to "check the pulse" and see if the guys will accept him back in.

Especially since my guess is that he'll go to some key guys first and if he really thinks Rauch has somehow turned things around, will enlist some clubhouse leaders to help diffuse any bad feelings

But it's all moot: unfortunately, it appears as if the Torn Labrum has claimed another victim (not to be confused with WSI's own TornLabrum).

You don't let the inmates run the asylum.

The decision should be made between Ozzie and KW at most. A democracy does not work in this case IMO.

If the guy can help the team, you make room for him. If he can't, then it is a moot point. I don't care what Billy Koch thinks. His job is to save ballgames, not play team psychiatrist.

One person is held accountable for these moves, and that is the GM. It's kind of his job to make the decisions. That's what Uncle Jer pays him for, not to run around polling his constituents.

Lip is correct on this one. Except where he says that Kenny has 51% of the vote; he has 100%.

Randar68
05-31-2004, 12:11 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
I think it's a mistake for any General Manager to start 'polling' players under any circumstances.

The GM runs the club not the players.

Rauch is gone. Like Williams said the pitcher stays and everybody knows it.

If Williams does poll the players he should do so with the understanding that he has 51% of the vote.

Lip

anything that you didn't "think of" (READ: Ken Rosenthal wrote about) is a bad idea.

tell me something old.

rahulsekhar
05-31-2004, 12:24 AM
Originally posted by beckett21
You don't let the inmates run the asylum.

The decision should be made between Ozzie and KW at most. A democracy does not work in this case IMO.

If the guy can help the team, you make room for him. If he can't, then it is a moot point. I don't care what Billy Koch thinks. His job is to save ballgames, not play team psychiatrist.

One person is held accountable for these moves, and that is the GM. It's kind of his job to make the decisions. That's what Uncle Jer pays him for, not to run around polling his constituents.

Lip is correct on this one. Except where he says that Kenny has 51% of the vote; he has 100%.

You may want to re-check the last few WS champs. Chemistry is a big deal in baseball, and it's been somethng that has killed the Sox the past few years. It's finally good and is a major factor in the team's success. You dont' mess with that by bringing in someone that the whole clubhouse basically hates. Not saying that that's the way the guys feel about Jon, but there are certainly some strong feelings towards his actions. Bringing back a virtual rookie who's last ML taste was a shellacking and a clubhouse nightmare into that scenario is a recipe for disaster for the player and possibly for the team.

That said - as I said in my post, if KW thinks that Jon HAS turned it around and is able to contribute (unlikely), IMO he'll work the clubhouse atmosphere through a few team leaders before putting Jon back in there.

Also note: he didn't say he wouldn't bring him back if the team was against it, he said he'd have to poll the guys before he could make that decision. All that means is that he's going to factor chemistry into the decision. He never says "If >50% of the guys don't want him back, he'll never be back". But don't undeestimate a guy's worth in the clubouse and the impact that has on the field.

beckett21
05-31-2004, 12:53 AM
Originally posted by rahulsekhar
You may want to re-check the last few WS champs. Chemistry is a big deal in baseball, and it's been somethng that has killed the Sox the past few years. It's finally good and is a major factor in the team's success. You dont' mess with that by bringing in someone that the whole clubhouse basically hates. Not saying that that's the way the guys feel about Jon, but there are certainly some strong feelings towards his actions. Bringing back a virtual rookie who's last ML taste was a shellacking and a clubhouse nightmare into that scenario is a recipe for disaster for the player and possibly for the team.

That said - as I said in my post, if KW thinks that Jon HAS turned it around and is able to contribute (unlikely), IMO he'll work the clubhouse atmosphere through a few team leaders before putting Jon back in there.

Also note: he didn't say he wouldn't bring him back if the team was against it, he said he'd have to poll the guys before he could make that decision. All that means is that he's going to factor chemistry into the decision. He never says "If >50% of the guys don't want him back, he'll never be back". But don't undeestimate a guy's worth in the clubouse and the impact that has on the field.

If you are a professional, you put that crap behind you when you step between the lines.

When you let everybody start having their say, it more than likely will result in chaos.

Do you mean to tell me that every single guy on that team likes every single other guy? I don't buy it. Not for a second. With the amount of money these guys make and egos to match? HA!

Jeff Kent hated Barry Bonds. Didn't seem to affect his performance in the least. We're not talking about Barry Bonds here obviously, but the same principle applies.

You cannot have 25 different opinions on how to run the franchise. It just won't work. It's nice in theory but at the end of the day it's in Kenny's lap. If the players get the impression that Kenny doesn't know what he is doing or has no plan, THAT would be a problem.

You really want to turn this thing into a circus, start taking polls.

Somebody doesn't like somebody else, tough. That's life. Deal. Whether or not Rauch comes back is solely on the shoulders of the GM. You cannot leave personnel decisions up to the whims of the players.

voodoochile
05-31-2004, 09:26 AM
Originally posted by beckett21
If you are a professional, you put that crap behind you when you step between the lines.

When you let everybody start having their say, it more than likely will result in chaos.

Do you mean to tell me that every single guy on that team likes every single other guy? I don't buy it. Not for a second. With the amount of money these guys make and egos to match? HA!

Jeff Kent hated Barry Bonds. Didn't seem to affect his performance in the least. We're not talking about Barry Bonds here obviously, but the same principle applies.

You cannot have 25 different opinions on how to run the franchise. It just won't work. It's nice in theory but at the end of the day it's in Kenny's lap. If the players get the impression that Kenny doesn't know what he is doing or has no plan, THAT would be a problem.

You really want to turn this thing into a circus, start taking polls.

Somebody doesn't like somebody else, tough. That's life. Deal. Whether or not Rauch comes back is solely on the shoulders of the GM. You cannot leave personnel decisions up to the whims of the players.

Now wouldn't it be special if everything actually worked that simply.

I see nothing wrong with asking the players how they feel about Rauch. No need to keep him on the team, but if the guys aren't that offended, why dump the kid. Anyone here who has never made a mistake? Anyone here who wishes they could have that mistake back? No need to crucify the guy, he's already screwed.

Polling the players sends them the message that it isn't all about KW's ego and that they can make a mistake (albeit not one of this magnitude) and not necessarily have to worry about the axe the next day. Whether that is actually true is secondary to the equation, the message is sometimes enough. The team is loose. The team is playing great. No need to make them start looking over their shoulder everytime they are late showing up or really need a schedule break on a day they aren't playing or have been pulled already.

Manage the moment. KW screwed it up the first time. Now he is trying to fix it. Nothing wrong with that.

rahulsekhar
05-31-2004, 09:34 AM
Originally posted by beckett21
If you are a professional, you put that crap behind you when you step between the lines.

When you let everybody start having their say, it more than likely will result in chaos.

Do you mean to tell me that every single guy on that team likes every single other guy? I don't buy it. Not for a second. With the amount of money these guys make and egos to match? HA!

Jeff Kent hated Barry Bonds. Didn't seem to affect his performance in the least. We're not talking about Barry Bonds here obviously, but the same principle applies.

You cannot have 25 different opinions on how to run the franchise. It just won't work. It's nice in theory but at the end of the day it's in Kenny's lap. If the players get the impression that Kenny doesn't know what he is doing or has no plan, THAT would be a problem.

You really want to turn this thing into a circus, start taking polls.

Somebody doesn't like somebody else, tough. That's life. Deal. Whether or not Rauch comes back is solely on the shoulders of the GM. You cannot leave personnel decisions up to the whims of the players.

That's nice in a dream world. In the real world, while if you perform well, a lot is forgiven - if your entire team hates you, it's going to be tough. It's got nothing to do with between the lines: I don't think for a second that guys wouldn't bust their asses for Jon if he were the starter. But I also don't think that he'd be mentally together if the entire clubhouse thought he was a tool. That's a lot of pressure for any rookie to deal with let alone one that's trying to overcome past shellackings.

Also, you're reading Kenny's "taking the pulse of the clubhouse" to mean "the guys will make the decision". That's not at all what he said. But as noted above: If the entire clubhouse thinks Jon's a tool, then the level at which he needs to be able to perform just got raised because bringing him back has serious negative implications for the atmosphere in the clubhouse. And it also means that he'd better be prepared and ready to handle all the extra pressure of trying to succeed and win over a team that thinks you already threw them under the bus once.

Last but not least, the "principle" does apply. However, that principle is that the sum total of your contributions to the team is what matters. Barry (and Kent) can get away with a lot in the clubhouse because they make HUGE contributions on the field. If you're not doing that or if you're marginal in your on-field play, then a negative impact in the clubhouse can make you overall a negative influence. That may not seem fair, but it's life. That's why I say if the team hates him, Jon's going to have a much higher hurdle to cross in terms of his on-field performance. Otherwise it's not worth bringin him back up.

beckett21
05-31-2004, 11:46 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Now wouldn't it be special if everything actually worked that simply.

I see nothing wrong with asking the players how they feel about Rauch. No need to keep him on the team, but if the guys aren't that offended, why dump the kid. Anyone here who has never made a mistake? Anyone here who wishes they could have that mistake back? No need to crucify the guy, he's already screwed.

Polling the players sends them the message that it isn't all about KW's ego and that they can make a mistake (albeit not one of this magnitude) and not necessarily have to worry about the axe the next day. Whether that is actually true is secondary to the equation, the message is sometimes enough. The team is loose. The team is playing great. No need to make them start looking over their shoulder everytime they are late showing up or really need a schedule break on a day they aren't playing or have been pulled already.

Manage the moment. KW screwed it up the first time. Now he is trying to fix it. Nothing wrong with that.

Not sure if you understand my position. I have defended Rauch from the outset. I am not trying to crucify him, or are you referring to KW?

KW shot his mouth off and made a mistake by blurting out his feelings like an immature child. I appreciate that he is trying to fix his mistake, ok, fine. But to read his quotes now, it is like he is asking people to tell him what to think.

It's great to know what the players have to say about Rauch to gauge their feelings. Maybe their feelings wouldn't be as harsh if the GM hadn't publicly said the guy quit on them in so many words. How are they supposed to respond to that?

And to further the point, say one of the other players does make a mistake. Public humiliation first, THEN after the dust settles a reasonable response from the GM?

Here's the point where people tell me I am horribly mis-interpreting the situation.

Rauch never got to state his side, and when he did it was dismissed as spin control. Now KW is taking polls and he is the magnanamous one. Nice of him to correct his mistake, he never should have shot his yap off in the first place. Now he comes off looking foolish.

And as I have said, I am a KW supporter. I have just taken the rose-colored glasses off on this one to take it at face value.

beckett21
05-31-2004, 11:54 AM
Originally posted by rahulsekhar


The version of that quote that I saw said that before Rauch could ever get called up again KW would have to poll the clubhouse. Not whether he could still be in the Sox organization or anything.



Originally posted by rahulsekhar

Also note: he didn't say he wouldn't bring him back if the team was against it, he said he'd have to poll the guys before he could make that decision.

So, my questions are:

Are these statements contradictory?

If he's going to do what he wants anyway, what's the point of a poll except to piss off more people when he ignores their opinions?

Or is Billy Koch running this team now?

duke of dorwood
05-31-2004, 12:24 PM
Originally posted by CubKilla
Sounds like KW is backtracking after he ran his mouth and will now probably get nothing of value offered up for Rauch if he did want to trade him. Only way Rauch goes for a big name now is if he's included in a muti-player deal.

We've seen this backtracking banter way too many times

rahulsekhar
05-31-2004, 02:53 PM
Originally posted by beckett21
So, my questions are:

Are these statements contradictory?

If he's going to do what he wants anyway, what's the point of a poll except to piss off more people when he ignores their opinions?

Or is Billy Koch running this team now?

Its called gathering information. Knowing how the clubhouse will react to Jon's return helps him understand the total imact that move has on the team. It also tells him what Jon's going to have to overcome AND what additional support he might need (i.e. KW getting clubhouse vets to give him a break and work on others to do so as well).

It also tells the team that he is concerned with maintaining the team atmosphere we've had so far, not a bad message.

I can't believe anyone would say it's better for KW to make the decision with LESS info rather than more. Remember - he never said the team makes the decision, just that he wants to understand the feeling towards Jon in the clubhouse.

And as for pissing them off, since he never says they make the decision, he's not backtracking on them if he goes against their views.

beckett21
05-31-2004, 03:01 PM
Originally posted by rahulsekhar
Its called gathering information. Knowing how the clubhouse will react to Jon's return helps him understand the total imact that move has on the team. It also tells him what Jon's going to have to overcome AND what additional support he might need (i.e. KW getting clubhouse vets to give him a break and work on others to do so as well).

It also tells the team that he is concerned with maintaining the team atmosphere we've had so far, not a bad message.

I can't believe anyone would say it's better for KW to make the decision with LESS info rather than more. Remember - he never said the team makes the decision, just that he wants to understand the feeling towards Jon in the clubhouse.

And as for pissing them off, since he never says they make the decision, he's not backtracking on them if he goes against their views.

How about gathering information before ripping a guy in the press?

Again this is not as much a defense of Rauch as it is displeasure with how KW responded initially. He should have kept his mouth shut until he had all the facts in the first place.

If he did in fact have all the facts, then why the backpedaling?

And I still view your two statements as contradictory.

Just my opinion.