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jeremyb1
05-30-2004, 01:01 AM
"There was very little discussion about moving major-league players, because I like the composition of this team," Williams said. "But nobody is untouchable. Nobody."

"Two words," Williams replied. "Nineteen seventeen." That, of course, is the last year the White Sox won a World Series.

"If the question is 'Will I sacrifice a little bit of our future for present glory?' the answer is yes. But if the question is also 'Would I do something stupid?' the answer is ... maybe."

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-040529soxside,1,917803.story?coll=cs-whitesox-headlines

First of all, I can't believe you gain leverage in trading for a starter by going to the press and talking at length about how desperate you are for a starter and how you'll deal any of your prospects. While the concept of leverage in trade situations is easily understood by a number of posters on this board, KW can't seem to comprehend it. In one of his first deals he did a good job of acquiring Marte but did an awful job of exploiting his leverage in trading for a waiver wire bound player when he gave up a top prospect. A few years later he doesn't seem to be any wiser calling for teams to make offers for Rauch the same day he makes these counterproductive comments.

Next, in trading for players in deadline type deals the only factor is not how badly you want to win a world series. I'm glad KW wants to bring one but key to that is picking the spots where you give up the future to win in the present by appropriately identifying your team's chance to win. KW acts as desire is all it takes. You'd sound pretty dumb making those comments with a last place team. We look good so far and it'd be nice to add the talent necessary to insure we stay ahead of the Twins but I'd still wait a while. With or without a good fifth starter we're on fire right now. That said the team has had huge collapses in the past. It'd be awful to deal several top prospects to acquire a new starter and then hit a huge skid and find ourselves 7 games out with a diminished future.

Finally, while I think the concept of "untouchable" players is pretty ridiculous (which players wouldn't you trade for Pujolz?), Jeremy Reed needs to be as close to untouchable as possible. He's the type of prospect a team finds once in a blue moon. I can't recall the Sox having a better position prospect since Frank Thomas and that was about 15 years ago. If KW trades him for pitching (which I don't think he should even entertain for a rentaplayer, 3 months vs. 6 years of Reed) we'd better win the World Series.

FarWestChicago
05-30-2004, 01:06 AM
Jeremy,

The Sox are in first place. And they have a better record than your idol's team. Relax and enjoy the good times a little. I know you statheads hate Kenny, but wait until we actually collapse to panic. And I'm sorry, but I don't think any of the posters on this board would have the Sox in first place right now. You guys are a little too full of yourselves. :smile:

Win1ForMe
05-30-2004, 02:23 AM
First of all, I can't believe you gain leverage in trading for a starter by going to the press and talking at length about how desperate you are for a starter and how you'll deal any of your prospects. While the concept of leverage in trade situations is easily understood by a number of posters on this board, KW can't seem to comprehend it. In one of his first deals he did a good job of acquiring Marte but did an awful job of exploiting his leverage in trading for a waiver wire bound player when he gave up a top prospect. A few years later he doesn't seem to be any wiser calling for teams to make offers for Rauch the same day he makes these counterproductive comments.

I'm pretty sure you're fooling yourself if you think Rauch had any trade value BEFORE Kenny's statements. As far talking about acquiring another starter, the 0-7 record and 9.72 ERA from our 5th starter spot speaks volumes. Besides, we're not bidding against ourselves when looking for a starter; other teams also have interest in Garcia. Let's not over blow Kenny's comments: we're not sneaking up on anyone with our needs.

We look good so far and it'd be nice to add the talent necessary to insure we stay ahead of the Twins but I'd still wait a while. With or without a good fifth starter we're on fire right now. That said the team has had huge collapses in the past. It'd be awful to deal several top prospects to acquire a new starter and then hit a huge skid and find ourselves 7 games out with a diminished future.

Well, something like that could happen at ANY point in the season (see last year's September collapse). So what's the difference if you do it now or at the trade deadline? We're a good team, the quicker we trade for a good pitcher, the lesser the chances of us losing the division. All indications point to a tight race b/w us and the Twins. How many of these games are you prepared to give away w/o worrying how it might bite us in the ass at the end of the season?

Finally, while I think the concept of "untouchable" players is pretty ridiculous (which players wouldn't you trade for Pujolz?), Jeremy Reed needs to be as close to untouchable as possible. He's the type of prospect a team finds once in a blue moon. I can't recall the Sox having a better position prospect since Frank Thomas and that was about 15 years ago. If KW trades him for pitching (which I don't think he should even entertain for a rentaplayer, 3 months vs. 6 years of Reed) we'd better win the World Series.

At the risk of sounding like Lip, I'll just say that the Sox have had many "can't miss kids" in the past, and have, for the most part, "missed." If we have a chance to get a #1 pitcher (even though I'm not sold on Garcia being an ace), I would have no problem giving up Reed. Most likely, one of Anderson/Sweeny/Reed/Borchard will be dealt if we're to acquire anything of value. That's really not at all surprising, so neither should Kenny's comments.

Chisoxfn
05-30-2004, 02:47 AM
Sometimes you have to throw stats out the door and make statements based on principal. If you don't think that what he did to Rauch sends a statement to every single player in the organization, then your mistaken.

This was the Sox making an example of a player, just like they did with Paniagua last year. I have no problem with it. I realize it may hurt trade value, but sometimes other things are more important.

Plus, I gotta say, Kenny has a passion and this is going to get the Sox talked about. Hendry has often commented on working the phones and being eager to make a move, yet I see him applauded all the time by Cub fans (I know I know, probably not a good comparison) but Hendry has done a solid job.

jeremyb1
05-30-2004, 07:47 AM
Originally posted by FarWestChicago
Jeremy,

The Sox are in first place. And they have a better record than your idol's team. Relax and enjoy the good times a little. I know you statheads hate Kenny, but wait until we actually collapse to panic. And I'm sorry, but I don't think any of the posters on this board would have the Sox in first place right now. You guys are a little too full of yourselves. :smile:

No actually Theo Epstein's club does have a better record. Hey, I've predicted the Sox to win the division, I expected them to be in first right now and I'm absolutely floored that they've played as well as they have. I also dislike it when fans expend too much energy being down on a winning club. That said, this isn't really an on the field issue. Any move we make regardless of our spot in the standings will likely have long term ramifications and I think any fan should consider that.

gosox41
05-30-2004, 07:49 AM
Originally posted by Chisoxfn
Sometimes you have to throw stats out the door and make statements based on principal. If you don't think that what he did to Rauch sends a statement to every single player in the organization, then your mistaken.

This was the Sox making an example of a player, just like they did with Paniagua last year. I have no problem with it. I realize it may hurt trade value, but sometimes other things are more important.

Plus, I gotta say, Kenny has a passion and this is going to get the Sox talked about. Hendry has often commented on working the phones and being eager to make a move, yet I see him applauded all the time by Cub fans (I know I know, probably not a good comparison) but Hendry has done a solid job.

I was just going to say something about comparing Hendry to Williams until I read your last paragraph.

I will say that this is the situations where KW makes me nervouse because he has a history of screwing up big deals. I would rather trade Konerko then anyone in the minors, but KW likes the make up of the major league team.

ALl I can say is KW has 4 drafts under his belt (since he ran the 2000 draft) and before that he was in charge of running the minor leagues wen Schu was GM. So a lot of the Sox inability to draft and develop a 5th starter falls on him.

All KW had to do was find one pitcher who can come up here and pitch with a 5.00ERA instead of a 9.72 ERA. We'd probably have a couple more wins at least right now. But KW's inability to do this is putting this team's future at risk because now he may have to trade a top prospect elsewhere to get a starter like Garcia who is likely to be here for only a few months.

I question why KW gave up on Diaz so easily after 2 starts. The second start was on 3 days rest, which was pretty stupid to do to a young pitcher, especially when he's not on that type of rotation in the minors. Why not give Diaz a chance until a trade is made and not look so desperate. I bet you Diaz could be all right if given a fair shot. You don't have such good minor league numbers by accident. Did KW hurt his confidence by dicking around with him like that? Time will tell.


Bob

SOXSINCE'70
05-30-2004, 08:35 AM
KW is not the man who should be scaring you.The man who should scare you has the initials JR !!

idseer
05-30-2004, 09:45 AM
Originally posted by Win1ForMe
I'm pretty sure you're fooling yourself if you think Rauch had any trade value BEFORE Kenny's statements.


i'm pretty sure EVERYONE HERE thought rauch had trade value before he started this game! there were a bunch (me included) who didn't want him included in a trade period!

i cannot believe how many people i see spouting this gibberish. there isn't a soul in the minors who doesn't have trade value regardless of what you think that value is. even if on a trade value scale of 1 to 100 rauch was worth about a 15 ..... his value has dropped to a 5 or less. but 5 is still a value! a 25 year old pitcher who was the TOP prospect just 3 years ago has value.

the only silver lining for rauch may be that most other gm's know what a dick kw is. so rauch will continue his career, someone will get some value out of him, and the sox will have shot themselves in the foot for nothing.

Frank the Tank
05-30-2004, 10:19 AM
I don't understand what everyone's complaints are with KW. I took nothing but positives out of the article. I place a lot of value in Reed, but HE IS JUST A PROSPECT. He may be the next White Sox allstar fixture in the outfield, but he may also tank big time. Nobody knows. That goes for all of our prospects. I'm not saying that KW should trade away the whole farm system for rent-a-players, but if trading a prospect brings us a step closer to the WS what is the problem? Did everyone miss the main point in the article? JR is expanding the payroll, maybe even significantly. I still have a hunch that the sox will soon have a #1 or #2 starter and a "big-time" position player. Give KW a chance.

johnny_mostil
05-30-2004, 10:32 AM
Originally posted by idseer
..... his value has dropped to a 5 or less. but 5 is still a value! a 25 year old pitcher who was the TOP prospect just 3 years ago has value.


Top pitching prospect + major injury = virtually nothing.

It doesn't matter how good you were, except in arbitration hearings.

johnny_mostil
05-30-2004, 10:34 AM
Originally posted by idseer
i
the only silver lining for rauch may be that most other gm's know what a dick kw is. so rauch will continue his career, someone will get some value out of him, and the sox will have shot themselves in the foot for nothing.

He throws 86-90 mph without precise command of location... what career? To get away with missing center cut four times in one inning you have to throw 100.

Jon Rauch : baseball :: Shawn Bradley : basketball.

idseer
05-30-2004, 10:59 AM
Originally posted by johnny_mostil
He throws 86-90 mph without precise command of location... what career? To get away with missing center cut four times in one inning you have to throw 100.

Jon Rauch : baseball :: Shawn Bradley : basketball.


even your little example shows how wrong you are. bradley has had an 11 year career so far in the equivalent of the majors.

and btw, have you checked rauch's stats at charlotte? it appears he has SOMETHING!

soxtalker
05-30-2004, 11:01 AM
Originally posted by Frank the Tank
I don't understand what everyone's complaints are with KW. I took nothing but positives out of the article. I place a lot of value in Reed, but HE IS JUST A PROSPECT. He may be the next White Sox allstar fixture in the outfield, but he may also tank big time. Nobody knows. That goes for all of our prospects...

The same thing can be said for the pitcher that KW would acquire. He could tank, get injured, etc. It seems to be accepted wisdom on this board that KW's acquisitions last year (Alomar and Everett) were great deals, because we only gave up "prospects". Well, we didn't win even with them -- always a possibility due to any number of factors -- and the prospects are gone. In those cases, we didn't give up top prospects (though I believe that we've heard recently that one of them is looking pretty good). If we'd given up someone the caliber of a Reed, who then turned into the star we anticipate, many of us would be furious.

I fully recognize that we must give up talent to get talent. But prospects do have value, and they shouldn't be thrown away as if they are easily replaced. Reed has a high probability of being a star and a fixture in our outfield of the future. Next year will come, and we will care at that time if we've given away a franchise player.

TheRockinMT
05-30-2004, 11:13 AM
Originally posted by SOXSINCE'70
KW is not the man who should be scaring you.The man who should scare you has the initials JR !!


I tend to agree with you, but KW is a JR man and in that reagrds scares me too. I just hope Kenny steps back and evaluates his move and his motive and the future impact to the club when he attempts to pull the trigger on a trade. You don't give up your best prospects for a pitcher especially one who may leave as a free agent. I am not certain we would even try and sign a free agent to be since the Sox track record in that area has been so well established. I am afraid that KW's famous temper and his ego get in the way of sound trade evaluations. He does not have a good track record on trading for established pitching. Otherwise I think he has done a fair job, just hope it hasn't gone to his head. We are not in a crisis yet!

ozzman
05-30-2004, 11:17 AM
Insiders say the Mariners are waiting to see if Garcia can bring them more flesh closer to the trading deadline, while the Sox are the ones who are lukewarm on Benson.

That quote is from the article. It looks like Pitt is trying to sell Benson and we aren't biting. I wouldn't be too scared yet. Hopefully Seattle decides that Freddy would look good on the southside sooner rather than later

Jerry_Manuel
05-30-2004, 07:19 PM
I'm surprised this wasn't posted from the article:

No deal appears imminent, but the names do show the type of pitcher Williams would like to add to his Central-leading Sox. His interest in a trade couldn't have cooled after Saturday's performance by Jon Rauch, which gave No. 5 starters an 0-7 record and 9.72 ERA.

Clearly, Williams has been given the go-ahead from board Chairman Jerry Reinsdorf to take on more payroll if necessary, with one source saying the amount is large.

MRKARNO
05-30-2004, 07:30 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel
I'm surprised this wasn't posted from the article:

I missed that entirely. But what exactly does large mean? At this point of the season it would take about 4.75 million to pay Garcia for the rest of the year. Is that large? Livan would cost about 4 mil from here on out this year. Is there money in there for a stopgap 1 year 3rd basemen? Or do we not need one? If we dont, then another bullpen arm could always be nice too.

Tragg
05-30-2004, 07:38 PM
Originally posted by MRKARNO
I missed that entirely. But what exactly does large mean? At this point of the season it would take about 4.75 million to pay Garcia for the rest of the year. Is that large? Livan would cost about 4 mil from here on out this year. Is there money in there for a stopgap 1 year 3rd basemen? Or do we not need one? If we dont, then another bullpen arm could always be nice too.

You rent a player to get to or win the WS- not for a fifth starter or even a 3rd starter. LIvan and Garcia are no better than our top 4 starters- the fifth doesn't see the playoffs so what's the point? Either get a cheap vet who can give you 6 innings or get a pitcher you plan on signing for a few years or rent a top notch pitcher to lead the rotation

You rent a Johnson a Clemens or a Schilling

You don't rent Garcia or Livan

IMO

nitetrain8601
05-30-2004, 07:57 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel
I'm surprised this wasn't posted from the article: Clearly, Williams has been given the go-ahead from board Chairman Jerry Reinsdorf to take on more payroll if necessary, with one source saying the amount is large.

To me the article is nothing but positives with a few posters making it into a negative for whatever reason. Stop overanalyzing the situation. From what it seems like, KW wants to get someone very very good in here. And it seems like JR wants a WS as bad as KW and Sox fans and that is why he's incresing the payroll. You could trade Jeremy Reed IMO if you get a Freddy Garcia. I think we can keep him too if we do make the playoffs. JR surely won't keep him if we don't, but if we do then mark him down as a starter for next year.

For that poster who said we need an average starter who could just fill the 5th spot since the 5th starter doesn't see the light of day in the playoffs, don't you think it would be better to have someone dominant(or close to it) and be able to move someone like Garland or Schoenweis to our bullpen for the playoffs just in case since we don't have the best bullpen in the league? Also we could use them too and allow all of our guys to get proper rest in between starts if we make the playoffs. Until then we definately need a 5th starter and KW is taking the best player available approach.

Lip Man 1
05-30-2004, 08:06 PM
I have absolutely no problem with Williams taking chances in an effort to win, win something...anything before I drop dead.

Patience is for those who have won something in the past twenty years. It's going on 45 years since a series appearance.

That's enough reason for me.

Lip

nitetrain8601
05-30-2004, 08:22 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
I have absolutely no problem with Williams taking chances in an effort to win, win something...anything before I drop dead.

Patience is for those who have won something in the past twenty years. It's going on 45 years since a series appearance.

That's enough reason for me.

Lip

Apparently it's not enough for some of these people.

twinsuck1
05-30-2004, 08:54 PM
I don't care!!! I want to win now. Go ahead KW make whatever moves you need too............

Jjav829
05-30-2004, 09:07 PM
Originally posted by twinsuck1
I don't care!!! I want to win now. Go ahead KW make whatever moves you need too............

Hey, Welcome Aboard! :D:

OEO Magglio
05-30-2004, 10:23 PM
Originally posted by Tragg
You rent a player to get to or win the WS- not for a fifth starter or even a 3rd starter. LIvan and Garcia are no better than our top 4 starters- the fifth doesn't see the playoffs so what's the point? Either get a cheap vet who can give you 6 innings or get a pitcher you plan on signing for a few years or rent a top notch pitcher to lead the rotation

You rent a Johnson a Clemens or a Schilling

You don't rent Garcia or Livan

IMO
Well there is no chance in a schilling or a Clemens, maybe RJ but I highly doubt it. Garcia has been great this year and looks to be returning to his old form and if thats the case he's definitely a top of the rotation guy that would be the sox rotation absolutely awesome.

jeremyb1
05-30-2004, 10:31 PM
Originally posted by Frank the Tank
I don't understand what everyone's complaints are with KW. I took nothing but positives out of the article. I place a lot of value in Reed, but HE IS JUST A PROSPECT. He may be the next White Sox allstar fixture in the outfield, but he may also tank big time. Nobody knows. That goes for all of our prospects. I'm not saying that KW should trade away the whole farm system for rent-a-players, but if trading a prospect brings us a step closer to the WS what is the problem? Did everyone miss the main point in the article? JR is expanding the payroll, maybe even significantly. I still have a hunch that the sox will soon have a #1 or #2 starter and a "big-time" position player. Give KW a chance.

What are you arguing here, that we don't know for certain how well prospects will perform so we should just trade them all? Good thing we didn't take that approach with Carlos, Maggs, Frank, Garland, Buehrle, Cotts, and Harris or I doubt we'd be where we're at right now. Projecting prospects' ability isn't an exact science but it's not completely random. Players performing similarly to Reed in the past have performed extremely well in the majors. I don't think we should simply trade him for any player that provides more current help.

CanOfCorn
05-30-2004, 10:36 PM
For some reason, I can picture KW going into other GMs offices to talk trade unexpectedly. Opening the door without knocking, locking it behind him, pulling the phone cord out, dropping a loaded revolver on the table, and saying, "You're going to give me what I want." with a wide-eyed stare, over and over again. Kinda like how Barry White negotiated his record deals.


I hope I'm not the only one.

jeremyb1
05-30-2004, 10:37 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
I have absolutely no problem with Williams taking chances in an effort to win, win something...anything before I drop dead.

Patience is for those who have won something in the past twenty years. It's going on 45 years since a series appearance.

That's enough reason for me.

Well tell me the move that guarantees or even gives us an 85% chance at a series apperance or even better yet a series win and I'll trade the entire farm system. The problem is Lip, I'm not aware of a move that gives us any such level of certainty. Furthermore, will you be happy if we make several big moves to win this season and then fall short of the playoffs or lose in the first round? Because based on your posts I'm not sure that you will. Then this season will be a failure and we will have gained nothing from the deadline deals. That means we have to start from square one trying to get further and without players to add internally that'll be quite near impossible.

A. Cavatica
05-30-2004, 10:55 PM
Who is this JR you speak of?

Jon Rauch?
Jeremy Reed?
Jerry Reinsdorf?
Ken Griffey or Cal Ripken?

SOXSINCE'70
05-31-2004, 10:18 AM
Originally posted by nitetrain8601
Apparently it's not enough for some of these people.

Agreed. As a Sox fan about to turn 42,i've waited a mere 34 years :smile: to see a WS on the South Side.My hair is falling out,my stomach's getting larger,and my back ain't what it used to be.Make it happen,Kenny!!

johnny_mostil
05-31-2004, 10:38 AM
Originally posted by idseer
even your little example shows how wrong you are. bradley has had an 11 year career so far in the equivalent of the majors.


My point was Bradley is 7-6 but he's soft and ultimately a poor player. He stricks around because the NBA doesn't have a farm system to send him to.

johnny_mostil
05-31-2004, 10:40 AM
Originally posted by MRKARNO
I missed that entirely. But what exactly does large mean? At this point of the season it would take about 4.75 million to pay Garcia for the rest of the year. Is that large? Livan would cost about 4 mil from here on out this year. Is there money in there for a stopgap 1 year 3rd basemen? Or do we not need one? If we dont, then another bullpen arm could always be nice too.

Crede has a history of not hitting in the first half. Let's see if he heats up a little before panicking.

raul12
05-31-2004, 10:43 AM
I'm not saying that KW should trade away the whole farm system for rent-a-players, but if trading a prospect brings us a step closer to the WS what is the problem?

Originally posted by jeremyb1
What are you arguing here, that we don't know for certain how well prospects will perform so we should just trade them all?

Did you fail to read his post? :?:

jeremyb1
06-01-2004, 06:29 PM
Originally posted by raul12
Did you fail to read his post? :?:

No not at all. The logic he espouses in his post and what he says in the post can be two different things. He claimed he doesn't want to trade the entire farm system but if his logic is correct and prospects are extremely risky and close to worthless because we can't project their future performance with any kind of accuracy then I think that would be a good idea.

Gumshoe
06-01-2004, 06:41 PM
Mark it down, I'm going to applaud KW, because this year, at least up to this point he deserves credit. For what?


1) Hiring Ozzie
2) Picking up Uribe

These two acquisitions are crucial so far. The first is by far the MOST important, and its arguable that KW is responsible for it, but who cares, I have to give him credit because it has brought results. For these two, kudos, KW. I generally dawg him, and rightly so, because as has been said, he has messed up big deals big time in the past.

With regard to the 5th starter, stop worrying so much guys. We'll be OK. Why can't we give a guy 3 straight starts though? Let's put some confidence behind a kid for a few starts and let him pitch without worrying about being sent down immediately! (see Diaz, Rauch, etc.). I konw these guys haven't fared well, but as has been said, let's give them a frickin chance. It's like AR, give him more consistency and over a week he'll hit .400+ with some numbers if he plays.

The whole 5th starter thing is blown up right now because it's the ONLY thing Sox fans who are pessimistic can find that is wrong with the team.

And all this trade Pauly K stuff? You gotta be kidding. Have you guys been watching? Just KEEP THE TEAM AS IS, KW.

We'll win. With Ozzie, we're the best in this division. Let's see what happens during postseason. Hopefully we'll get a few breaks.

G

OEO Magglio
06-01-2004, 06:43 PM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
Mark it down, I'm going to applaud KW, because this year, at least up to this point he deserves credit. For what?


1) Hiring Ozzie
2) Picking up Uribe

These two acquisitions are crucial so far. The first is by far the MOST important, and its arguable that KW is responsible for it, but who cares, I have to give him credit because it has brought results. For these two, kudos, KW. I generally dawg him, and rightly so, because as has been said, he has messed up big deals big time in the past.

With regard to the 5th starter, stop worrying so much guys. We'll be OK. Why can't we give a guy 3 straight starts though? Let's put some confidence behind a kid for a few starts and let him pitch without worrying about being sent down immediately! (see Diaz, Rauch, etc.). I konw these guys haven't fared well, but as has been said, let's give them a frickin chance. It's like AR, give him more consistency and over a week he'll hit .400+ with some numbers if he plays.

The whole 5th starter thing is blown up right now because it's the ONLY thing Sox fans who are pessimistic can find that is wrong with the team.

And all this trade Pauly K stuff? You gotta be kidding. Have you guys been watching? Just KEEP THE TEAM AS IS, KW.

We'll win. With Ozzie, we're the best in this division. Let's see what happens during postseason. Hopefully we'll get a few breaks.

G
You forgot to mention the pickup of Shingo and the trade for shoney last year. He made that trade thinking scott was going to be a starter this year and even through a tough st he stuck with shoney and he's been great so far this year.

A. Cavatica
06-01-2004, 07:47 PM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
And all this trade Pauly K stuff? You gotta be kidding. Have you guys been watching?

Buy low, sell high.

Konerko is going through his annual hot streak. We're lucky it came in the first half, because he may actually be tradeable again. For god's sake, KW, if you can trade him for ANYTHING before the annual cold streak arrives...do it!