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Brian26
05-29-2004, 06:29 PM
Unbelievable! Just reported by ESPN 1000 on Willsy's show...

Rauch left before the end of the game. Kenny just issued the statement that Rauch probably won't ever pitch for the White Sox again, and if any team is interested in him, they should call Kenny Williams. PK had a quote...basically saying Rauch should have stayed, and the rest of the team was upset too.

HomeFish
05-29-2004, 06:32 PM
Today's start destroys any trade value he had.

Brian26
05-29-2004, 06:33 PM
Willsy and Melton now completely breaking bad on Rauch. Hope no other teams are listening. Melton says Rauch didn't have the velocity to make it happen. Willsy talking about the Olympic team Rauch shut down as being equivalent to a Division 3 college team.

RKMeibalane
05-29-2004, 06:33 PM
Oh, brother...

Ozzie Guillen is going to **** bricks when he hears about this. I honestly don't know what to say. For Jon Rauch, an unproven pitcher who has accomplished nothing at the big league level, to leave a game early is absolutely indefensible. I don't care if you're not playing, you need to at least be at the stadium until the game has ended.

Rauch needs to go. This type of behavior should not be tolerated.

Grobber33
05-29-2004, 06:40 PM
If you want to read a bit more on this, www.grobber.com
It was weird to say the least!!!

RKMeibalane
05-29-2004, 06:41 PM
Originally posted by Grobber33
If you want to read a bit more on this, www.grobber.com
It was weird to say the least!!!

Thanks, Les!

soltrain21
05-29-2004, 06:43 PM
Later, Mr. Rauch...



It would be nice to be able and package him with SOMETHING to get a fifth starter that can just stop the gap until a bigger move opens up...

HomeFish
05-29-2004, 06:45 PM
Haha...they actually said "Anyone who is interested in aquiring Rauch should contact Kenny Williams." That's bad. I'm not sure if I would even say that.

Jjav829
05-29-2004, 06:47 PM
What a prick. Thanks for nothing you big piece of ****. What a complete dumbass. There better be something to this explaining his actions.

So now what? We can't even say excuse this as one bad start and give him another chance because he just ended his Sox career.

epgalsoxfan
05-29-2004, 06:48 PM
i know this is common knowledge...but we need the 5th starter....i dont like thinking that every time it is the 5th starters turn to pitch it we are going to lose. common on KW do something! at least the twinkies lost..thanks kansas city

Voice of Reason
05-29-2004, 06:51 PM
It's frustrating to hear that Williams said that publicly, it only lowers Rauch's trade value.

RKMeibalane
05-29-2004, 06:54 PM
Originally posted by Voice of Reason
It's frustrating to hear that Williams said that publicly, it only lowers Rauch's trade value.

Well, it's not as though his trade value was that high to begin with. I just want him off the team. People who behave the way Rauch did this afternoon don't deserve to be a part of a Major League baseball team. There are a lot of people who would give anyting to pitch in the big leagues, and Jon Rauch decides to act like a spoiled brat.

I hope that piece of **** never pitches in the majors again.

Maximo
05-29-2004, 06:54 PM
Originally posted by Voice of Reason
It's frustrating to hear that Williams said that publicly, it only lowers Rauch's trade value.


Not sure there was a whole lot of value prior to today. I'm beginning to think that the only remaining folks on the planet who thought Jon Rauch could eventually pitch in the majors was a few of us die hards.

See ya, Jon.

BigEdWalsh
05-29-2004, 06:54 PM
I read somewhere a couple of weeks ago that Rauch is his own toughest critic. I bet he's so down on himself he just quit baseball.
Totally weird.

dpbyron
05-29-2004, 06:57 PM
His trade value was greatly diminished BEFORE he left the game when he looked like a high school pitcher throwing straight as an arrow and getting knocked all over the place.

What Kenny Williams did by taking this public was essentially tell every player in the organization that bull**** like this WILL NOT BE TOLERATED.

soxtalker
05-29-2004, 07:02 PM
Originally posted by Voice of Reason
It's frustrating to hear that Williams said that publicly, it only lowers Rauch's trade value.

That was my reaction. I realize that KW would have been upset with Rauch leaving the park, but I don't see what purpose it serves to publicly make that announcement.

As far as Rauch not having any value after the start, I'm not sure of that. He's had a good record lately in AAA, and he did have pretty good control today.

idseer
05-29-2004, 07:03 PM
Originally posted by Voice of Reason
It's frustrating to hear that Williams said that publicly, it only lowers Rauch's trade value.

i totally agree! granted he may not have a lot of value but he's 25, has been effective at aaa and would have brought something of value.
williams was STUPID to say such a thing publicly .... no matter what you think of what rauch did.

and btw, most of you here have over-reacted wildly. he left early. he didn't kill anyone and perhaps didn't realize what he was doing. you could at least wait to hear his side.
to call him a p. o. s. is ignorant imo.

i'm disappointed alright ... but not because he left early. he stunk up the mound! that's what pisses me off.

Jjav829
05-29-2004, 07:04 PM
Rauch is gonna talk to Dave Wills. Tune into ESPN 1000 now!

SoxBoy14
05-29-2004, 07:06 PM
Ozzie's gone for one game and... Carlos Lee gets picked off with the bases loaded and 2 outs, we only score one run, and Rauch leaves the game early ending his Sox career and probably his whole MLB career period!

Jjav829
05-29-2004, 07:07 PM
Rauch claims that this was a huge miscommunication. He says he was told to avoid the media as much as possible and knew that he wouldn't be with the big club much longer and that this was just one start. He says his family was there and that he was going to get ready to drive back down to Charlotte so it seemed like the right thing to do to leave with his family.

He says he talked to Rick Hahn and Don Cooper but that this is KW's decision now. Says he didn't mean to disrespect anyone and that he feels the Sox still believe in him. Thinks he blew the game today but respects this team.

Rex Hudler
05-29-2004, 07:08 PM
Originally posted by idseer
i totally agree! granted he may not have a lot of value but he's 25, has been effective at aaa and would have brought something of value.
williams was STUPID to say such a thing publicly .... no matter what you think of what rauch did.

and btw, most of you here have over-reacted wildly. he left early. he didn't kill anyone and perhaps didn't realize what he was doing. you could at least wait to hear his side.
to call him a p. o. s. is ignorant imo.

i'm disappointed alright ... but not because he left early. he stunk up the mound! that's what pisses me off.

Making a strong statement like KW did sends a strong message to the rest of the team that this is a team first and that selfish behavior is not acceptable. Dumping Rauch and getting nother for him could be worth a lot more by the message it sends to everyone else across the whole Sox organization.

RKMeibalane
05-29-2004, 07:09 PM
Originally posted by SoxBoy14
Ozzie's gone for one game and... Carlos Lee gets picked off with the bases loaded and 2 outs, we only score one run, and Rauch leaves the game early ending his Sox career and probably his whole MLB career period!

I'm anxious to hear Ozzie's reaction to all of us. The irony of the situation is that Guillen held a meeting on the 27th because he was pleased with the way things were going. I would imagine another meeting will be held tomorrow or Monday to resolve this issue.

Brian26
05-29-2004, 07:10 PM
Originally posted by Jjav829
He says he talked to Rick Hahn and Don Cooper but that this is KW's decision now. Says he didn't mean to disrespect anyone and that he feels the Sox still believe in him. Thinks he blew the game today but respects this team.

Just heard that...

What it sounds like is a bit of spin control. I'm sure someone got on the horn and let him know all of this was going down on the radio, and obviously Rauch felt like he might have to defend himself and call up Willsy on the air.

If he talked to Coop and Hahn, it was AFTER he left the park. It wasn't before.

Brian26
05-29-2004, 07:11 PM
Originally posted by Rex Hudler
Making a strong statement like KW did sends a strong message to the rest of the team that this is a team first and that selfish behavior is not acceptable.

Part of Kenny's quote was "this is a family, and we root and cheer each other on."

Makes sense to me.

RKMeibalane
05-29-2004, 07:11 PM
Originally posted by Jjav829
Rauch claims that this was a huge miscommunication. He says he was told to avoid the media as much as possible and knew that he wouldn't be with the big club much longer and that this was just one start. He says his family was there and that he was going to get ready to drive back down to Charlotte so it seemed like the right thing to do to leave with his family.

He says he talked to Rick Hahn and Don Cooper but that this is KW's decision now. Says he didn't mean to disrespect anyone and that he feels the Sox still believe in him. Thinks he blew the game today but respects this team.

He still should not have left. You can't just get up and leave when you're at work. That's gounds for dismissal in any industry. Professional sports should be no different. Rauch was right about one thing, though: he blew it.

Good riddance, Jon.

JRIG
05-29-2004, 07:12 PM
Serious questions:

Isn't this the type of thing we normally criticize the media about for blowing a small thing out of proportion, i.e. Frank leaving the All-Star game early?

Wouldn't this not be a story at all if KW doesn't make a statement that "interested teams should call the White Sox"?

Is it wrong that I'm more upset at our 40-something General Mananger for reacting in a huff and releasing a statement that takes away any trade value one of his players might have than at a 25-year-old pitcher for not sticking around after a game?

soxtalker
05-29-2004, 07:13 PM
Originally posted by Rex Hudler
Making a strong statement like KW did sends a strong message to the rest of the team that this is a team first and that selfish behavior is not acceptable. Dumping Rauch and getting nother for him could be worth a lot more by the message it sends to everyone else across the whole Sox organization.

KW could accomplish the same thing without making the statement and simply trading Rauch quickly. If necessary, let the word leak through the clubhouse "unofficially" later.

idseer
05-29-2004, 07:14 PM
Originally posted by Rex Hudler
Making a strong statement like KW did sends a strong message to the rest of the team that this is a team first and that selfish behavior is not acceptable. Dumping Rauch and getting nother for him could be worth a lot more by the message it sends to everyone else across the whole Sox organization.

that is absolutely laughable.

cutting your nose off to spite your face has long been recognized as STUPID!

this team doesn't need an outlandish example to be a team. just trading him would send the message. but wait! we can't get crap for him now! cause everyone in the baseball world will know he's free!

STUPID!

WinningUgly!
05-29-2004, 07:14 PM
I heard he left because dogs were coming out of the stands & lining up for a chance to hit against him....

http://cabletv.starhub.com/media/image/show/20030916113100_AirBud_mid.jpg

idseer
05-29-2004, 07:16 PM
Originally posted by Rex Hudler
Making a strong statement like KW did sends a strong message to the rest of the team that this is a team first and that selfish behavior is not acceptable. Dumping Rauch and getting nother for him could be worth a lot more by the message it sends to everyone else across the whole Sox organization.

yeah ... dumping a player and getting nothing for him tells the team that this organization is too stupid to play for.

JRIG
05-29-2004, 07:16 PM
Originally posted by Rex Hudler
Making a strong statement like KW did sends a strong message to the rest of the team that this is a team first and that selfish behavior is not acceptable. Dumping Rauch and getting nother for him could be worth a lot more by the message it sends to everyone else across the whole Sox organization.

Would this be like the message he sent a few years ago when he tore into the clubhouse, flipped over tables, and called everybody a bunch of MF-ers?

RKMeibalane
05-29-2004, 07:17 PM
Originally posted by JRIG
Serious questions:

Isn't this the type of thing we normally criticize the media about for blowing a small thing out of proportion, i.e. Frank leaving the All-Star game early?

Wouldn't this not be a story at all if KW doesn't make a statement that "interested teams should call the White Sox"?

Is it wrong that I'm more upset at our 40-something General Mananger for reacting in a huff and releasing a statement that takes away any trade value one of his players might have than at a 25-year-old pitcher for not sticking around after a game?

I do think Williams made a mistake by talking to the media, but the fact remains that Rauch created this whole mess by leaving the park early. KW probably handled the situation poorly, but Rauch forced his hand by walking out.

Rex Hudler
05-29-2004, 07:17 PM
Originally posted by JRIG
Serious questions:

Isn't this the type of thing we normally criticize the media about for blowing a small thing out of proportion, i.e. Frank leaving the All-Star game early?

Wouldn't this not be a story at all if KW doesn't make a statement that "interested teams should call the White Sox"?

Is it wrong that I'm more upset at our 40-something General Mananger for reacting in a huff and releasing a statement that takes away any trade value one of his players might have than at a 25-year-old pitcher for not sticking around after a game?

As I said before...... sometimes the message you can send to your team and your whole organization is worth more than what value you can get out of a player.

I mentioned this a while back and was attacked for it, but I will mention it again. Problems have always found Rauch. He is very selfish and somewhat of a prick. There were more problems with him than him just not being nice. He wasn't respected or liked by his teammates.

It is sometimes hard to describe, but many people who have dealt with him have always questioned whether he would make it for the very reasons above.

BigEdWalsh
05-29-2004, 07:18 PM
Originally posted by WinningUgly!
I heard he left because dogs were coming out of the stands & lining up for a chance to hit against him....

http://cabletv.starhub.com/media/image/show/20030916113100_AirBud_mid.jpg

That's too much! Thanks for providing a good laugh. I think it's just what I needed.

idseer
05-29-2004, 07:19 PM
Originally posted by Brian26
Part of Kenny's quote was "this is a family, and we root and cheer each other on."

Makes sense to me.

yes ... it does make sense. and reprimanding rauch makes sense too. but this bozo jumps off the deep end with his emotional statements. all kw did today was hurt the team.

Nick@Nite
05-29-2004, 07:20 PM
Originally posted by Rex Hudler
Making a strong statement like KW did sends a strong message to the rest of the team that this is a team first and that selfish behavior is not acceptable. Dumping Rauch and getting nothing for him could be worth a lot more by the message it sends to everyone else across the whole Sox organization.

I was going to post those same words... but you beat me to it.

Send Rauch to KC... yeah I know their divisional rivals... but our heavy righty line up seems to do mucho well against Royal lefty's, and KC is desperate at the moment.

Nick@Nite
05-29-2004, 07:21 PM
Originally posted by Rex Hudler
As I said before...... sometimes the message you can send to your team and your whole organization is worth more than what value you can get out of a player.

I mentioned this a while back and was attacked for it, but I will mention it again. Problems have always found Rauch. He is very selfish and somewhat of a prick. There were more problems with him than him just not being nice. He wasn't respected or liked by his teammates.

It is sometimes hard to describe, but many people who have dealt with him have always questioned whether he would make it for the very reasons above.

Agree.

Maximo
05-29-2004, 07:21 PM
Based upon his reputation, his toughness on himself, his actions after the game for whatever reason and most of all.....his pitching performance today.......I'm not too keen on Jon Rauch as a fifth starter at the moment, let alone down the stretch.

SoxBoy14
05-29-2004, 07:21 PM
Originally posted by WinningUgly!
I heard he left because dogs were coming out of the stands & lining up for a chance to hit against him....

http://cabletv.starhub.com/media/image/show/20030916113100_AirBud_mid.jpg


LMAO :D:

Rex Hudler
05-29-2004, 07:23 PM
KW sent another message last year in ST, although he did this one silently. Josh Stewart was kept with the big league club out of ST over guys like Rauch, not only because he pitched well in ST, but because KW wanted to send a message to some young pitchers in the organization that you will be rewarded if you do things the right way. If not, others will pass you by.

This was not a public statement but it was a message to his organization. Keeping Cotts this year was similar because Cotts works his ass off and does everything the organization asks of him.

batmanZoSo
05-29-2004, 07:26 PM
quote: originally spoken by batmanzoso in chat:

"...I hope Rauch doesn't start another game this year."

Guess I got my wish, but jeezus! I just wanted to go to a four man rotation until we could acquire an ace via trade.

Well pallies, so much for Rauch&Friends-for-Garcia.

How bout Reed and Honel?


:hawk
"In my several months as GM I never saw anything like this. He gone!....as well he should be."

Whitesox029
05-29-2004, 07:32 PM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane
Oh, brother...

Ozzie Guillen is going to **** bricks when he hears about this. I honestly don't know what to say. For Jon Rauch, an unproven pitcher who has accomplished nothing at the big league level, to leave a game early is absolutely indefensible. I don't care if you're not playing, you need to at least be at the stadium until the game has ended.

Rauch needs to go. This type of behavior should not be tolerated.
This brings back memories of Spring Training 2004 when a couple of minor league invitees were asked to go in late in a game and said that "they didn't want to."

jeremyb1
05-29-2004, 07:36 PM
Originally posted by Brian26
Willsy talking about the Olympic team Rauch shut down as being equivalent to a Division 3 college team.

Originally posted by RKMeibalane
I hope that piece of **** never pitches in the majors again.

I can't believe how hateful people are. Even if Rauch made a mistake no one is going to lose more than he's going to. I don't think there's an excuse for launching all out personal attacks with such vigor. People make mistakes, people have problems, people live troubled lives I don't think this type of spite is waranted. We're talking about a guy who's had his career, his livelihood destroyed by injuries.

As far as the facts, how do we know Rauch didn't tell Cooper and Hahn? If that's the case we expect them to say otherwise to the media since no one seems to be holding back, right?

dickallen15
05-29-2004, 07:38 PM
Originally posted by idseer
yeah ... dumping a player and getting nothing for him tells the team that this organization is too stupid to play fo
r.
I agree with Rex. If this guy has an attitude problem like it appears, good riddance. KW's quotes aren't going to lessen his trade value. Every team needs pitching, and the organizations that like Rauch's ability I'm sure have been quite aware of his attitude "problems" will still make a play for him, and if they know he is available to every team and the Sox are definitely getting rid of him, it may actually increase his value, like an ebay item in the last minute its available. The only thing that will lessen his value is his horrific performance.

guillen4life13
05-29-2004, 07:44 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
I can't believe how hateful people are. Even if Rauch made a mistake no one is going to lose more than he's going to. I don't think there's an excuse for launching all out personal attacks with such vigor. People make mistakes, people have problems, people live troubled lives I don't think this type of spite is waranted. We're talking about a guy who's had his career, his livelihood destroyed by injuries.

As far as the facts, how do we know Rauch didn't tell Cooper and Hahn? If that's the case we expect them to say otherwise to the media since no one seems to be holding back, right?

I agree. I'm in Rauch's corner on this one. All he did was leave the game a little early. And you're all assuming he lied about having told Cooper and Hahn. Wait until Cooper and/or Hahn confirm or deny that role of events before you make such judgements.

RKMeibalane
05-29-2004, 07:46 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
I can't believe how hateful people are. Even if Rauch made a mistake no one is going to lose more than he's going to. I don't think there's an excuse for launching all out personal attacks with such vigor. People make mistakes, people have problems, people live troubled lives I don't think this type of spite is waranted. We're talking about a guy who's had his career, his livelihood destroyed by injuries.

As far as the facts, how do we know Rauch didn't tell Cooper and Hahn? If that's the case we expect them to say otherwise to the media since no one seems to be holding back, right?

The man quit on his team, Jeremy. He got up and left the park before the game was over. In any other line of work, that would be grounds for immediate dismissal. I see no reason why baseball should be any different. It's still a job, and every player, as an employee of his big league organizaiton, should be expected to be at the workplace while a game is going on unless he has permission to be elsewehre. Rauch left without talking to KW first, and he also sent a bad message to his teammates, who were still out there trying to win a game. Hateful or not, I don't want Rauch around anymore. He's an embarrassment to the Sox organization.

Lip Man 1
05-29-2004, 07:49 PM
Folks:

A few comments....

Let's get real here OK? Jon Rauch, he of two surgeries and considered 'soft' by his own teammates wasn't going to get much anyway in any kind of deal!

Kenny Williams didn't reduce his trade value because he had none (or little) to begin with.

What Williams did was tell everyone connected with the organization that unprofessional behavior will not be tolerated. I guarantee you by tomorrow every Sox minor league player in all classifications will have heard about this.

I won't single out anybody by name because they know who they are but backing Rauch in the first place was a longshot at best. Making claims last spring that in the long run it would be better for the organization to give him another chance as opposed to signing someone like Kenny Rogers in retrospect seems even more foolish now.

Lip

DickAllen72
05-29-2004, 07:49 PM
Originally posted by HomeFish
Haha...they actually said "Anyone who is interested in aquiring Rauch should contact Kenny Williams." That's bad. I'm not sure if I would even say that.

Who is the "they" who said that?

Was it a quote from KW, or did someone else say anyone interested in Rauch should contact KW?

SaltyPretzel
05-29-2004, 07:50 PM
Jon Rauch translates into Jose Paniagua in English.

illiniwhitesox
05-29-2004, 07:56 PM
It's an interesting decision to make on Kenny's part. One one hand, you want to send a message to the team that this type of behavior will not be tolerated.

On the other hand, you don't want to diminish any trade value he may have. Hey, the guy made it to the show - he has some trade value. Trust me, you can get at least a low level draft pick.

I don't blame Kenny's statement. I just wish he would have made it on a day's sleep. I earn a living by negotiating deals - I'm not saying I'm great at it, but rule #1 is never let your temper show and never make a decision when you are angry.

Brian26
05-29-2004, 07:58 PM
Originally posted by guillen4life13
I agree. I'm in Rauch's corner on this one. All he did was leave the game a little early. And you're all assuming he lied about having told Cooper and Hahn. Wait until Cooper and/or Hahn confirm or deny that role of events before you make such judgements.

The problem arose when Kenny went down to the clubhouse after the game to tell Rauch that they were sending him back to AAA. Nobody could find Rauch, as he had left the building. Coop would have been down there right after the game. If nobody knew where Rauch was (including Coop), I don't blame KW one bit. It's BS that Rauch wasn't in there.

Dadawg_77
05-29-2004, 07:59 PM
Kenny Williams proves once again he is in over his head by his reaction. What if Jon asked Cooper and Haun and believe it he was following club policy by avoiding the media. If you get permission from your supervisor you can leave any job. Did he quit on his team, that for the team to decide, and Paul Konerko hasn't been the barometer of that.

JRIG
05-29-2004, 07:59 PM
Originally posted by illiniwhitesox

On the other hand, you don't want to diminish any trade value he may have. Hey, the guy made it to the show - he has some trade value. Trust me, you can get at least a low level draft pick.


Actually, you can't. MLB does not allow the trading of draft picks.

Brian26
05-29-2004, 08:00 PM
Originally posted by DickAllen72
Who is the "they" who said that?

Was it a quote from KW, or did someone else say anyone interested in Rauch should contact KW?

Kenny Williams said it. Exact quote.

RKMeibalane
05-29-2004, 08:00 PM
:KW

"Jon Rauch is a bitch and mother****er!"

RKMeibalane
05-29-2004, 08:05 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
Kenny Williams proves once again he is in over his head by his reaction. What if Jon asked Cooper and Haun and believe it he was following club policy by avoiding the media. If you get permission from your supervisor you can leave any job. Did he quit on his team, that for the team to decide, and Paul Konerko hasn't been the barometer of that.

Williams was wrong to come right out and issue a statement about Rauch, but I think he's right in deciding to get rid of Jon. Regardless of whether Rauch was going to be sent down or not, he should not have left the park. Doing so sends a bad message to rest of the team. Besides, if Cooper or Hahn knew where Rauch was, I would imagine that they would have said something to Williams when he could find Rauch after the game.

Rex Hudler
05-29-2004, 08:05 PM
Originally posted by illiniwhitesox
It's an interesting decision to make on Kenny's part. One one hand, you want to send a message to the team that this type of behavior will not be tolerated.

On the other hand, you don't want to diminish any trade value he may have. Hey, the guy made it to the show - he has some trade value. Trust me, you can get at least a low level draft pick.

I don't blame Kenny's statement. I just wish he would have made it on a day's sleep. I earn a living by negotiating deals - I'm not saying I'm great at it, but rule #1 is never let your temper show and never make a decision when you are angry.

Rauch still has trade value. KW's statement doesn't affect it much. If an organization liked him before, they will likely take a flyer on him, thinking they can get him straightened out.

JRIG
05-29-2004, 08:07 PM
Originally posted by Rex Hudler
Rauch still has trade value. KW's statement doesn't affect it much. If an organization liked him before, they will likely take a flyer on him, thinking they can get him straightened out.

But now they know they don't have to overwhelm KW with an offer to acquire him.

Rex Hudler
05-29-2004, 08:09 PM
Originally posted by JRIG
But now they know they don't have to overwhelm KW with an offer to acquire him.

The reality is and was, no one was going to overwhelm KW for a pitcher that could barely get through six innings in AAA anyway.

illiniwhitesox
05-29-2004, 08:13 PM
Originally posted by JRIG
Actually, you can't. MLB does not allow the trading of draft picks.

Point taken, but I meant a player drafted at the lower end of the draft (ie you get someone green and unproven). Were talking the same language, just using different words.

DickAllen72
05-29-2004, 08:18 PM
Originally posted by Brian26
Kenny Williams said it. Exact quote.

From Les Grobstein's website:

One time US Olympian Jon Rauch started against Anahiem here on the South Side today,was hammered for a 5 spot and removed in the 4th inning of the Angels 5-1 win. His biggest mistake may have been leaving the Ballpark before the game ended without permission from GM Kenny Williams and according to Sox P.R.Director Scott Riefort,"Anyone interested in aquiring Rauch should contact Kenny Williams. The Sox do not condone his actions."

I'm sure KW gave SR the Okay to make that statement, but it was not a direct quote from KW.

A. Cavatica
05-29-2004, 08:21 PM
Nobody wins, nobody comes out looking good here.

What a shame.

pearso66
05-29-2004, 08:30 PM
I realy think Rauch has 0 trade value now. teams now know that he is on the outs with the team. They will just wait for the sox to release him, and either pick him up off waivers or get him as a free agent.

ChiSox7
05-29-2004, 08:48 PM
He had ZERO trade value ANYWAY. Did ANY of you guys watch him pitch today. Seriously. Did you see it. He GOT CRUSHED. We could have gotten a C-level prospect for him straight up, and if you think Seattle would ahve taken him in any kind of deal to get Garcia, you're crazy.

Maybe KW overreacted a little bit, but to say that his statement hurts Rauch's trade value is rediculous. HE HAD NO TRADE VALUE.

beckett21
05-29-2004, 09:13 PM
Originally posted by DickAllen72
From Les Grobstein's website:

One time US Olympian Jon Rauch started against Anahiem here on the South Side today,was hammered for a 5 spot and removed in the 4th inning of the Angels 5-1 win. His biggest mistake may have been leaving the Ballpark before the game ended without permission from GM Kenny Williams and according to Sox P.R.Director Scott Riefort,"Anyone interested in aquiring Rauch should contact Kenny Williams. The Sox do not condone his actions."

I'm sure KW gave SR the Okay to make that statement, but it was not a direct quote from KW.

Yes that's the way I heard it too.

Nonetheless, I cannot stick up for KW on this one. Not being in the clubhouse, it comes down to Rauch's word vs. KW. Rauch's explanation satisfies me. Sounds plausible. Whether or not it's *spin control*, that's not for me to decide. If the Sox asked him up for a brief cup of coffee and had every intention of sending him back down after the game, no big deal here.

For KW thru a spokesman to throw Rauch under the bus and say how they are a *family*, it kind of bothers me that he would hang Rauch out to dry like that. I totally believe that it was probably a miscommunication, and the Sox actually showed a lack of class with their reaction. The best comment would have been a "No comment."

Rauch was made a scapegoat here, and a rather convenient one at that coming off a shellacking. Should have been handled internally, without a reactionary and inflammatory response. I generally take Williams' side, but not on this one.

And as far as Rauch's trade value....it never will be what it was prior to his injuries. I don't think the comments make a bit of difference one way or another. Jon's performance did the most damage there. My $0.02.

SEALgep
05-29-2004, 09:23 PM
Originally posted by Voice of Reason
It's frustrating to hear that Williams said that publicly, it only lowers Rauch's trade value. Lowers his value probably, but at least it makes a statement to the team, and it shows we won't tolerate this behavior. That shows exactly what we expect from future minor leaguers (which shouldn't have been needed to be said) and also shows our players that we are a family and will only allow players who want to be part of this family to be around. I'm sure the players appreciate that, and expect it. That's more important to me than what can we get for Rauch.

beckett21
05-29-2004, 09:27 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
Lowers his value probably, but at least it makes a statement to the team, and it shows we won't tolerate this behavior. That shows exactly what we expect from future minor leaguers (which shouldn't have been needed to be said) and also shows our players that we are a family and will only allow players who want to be part of this family to be around. I'm sure the players appreciate that, and expect it. That's more important to me than what can we get for Rauch.

Well, it depends on who you believe in terms of what message it says to the team.

If they told Rauch to avoid the media, and pretty much implied to him that unless he was *lights-out* that he was going right back to Charlotte, then I think it sends a horrible message.

Talk about family, and in the same breath send one of your own off to slaughter--some message that is. Kind of like when Dan Evans called out Shawn Green, who happened to be playing hurt all season.

That's not the kind of message I would like to get as a member of the Sox. Basically, if you suck, we will call you out publicly and humiliate you. Nice message.

JRIG
05-29-2004, 09:28 PM
Originally posted by beckett21
Well, it depends on who you believe in terms of what message it says to the team.

If they told Rauch to avoid the media, and pretty much implied to him that unless he was *lights-out* that he was going right back to Charlotte, then I think it sends a horrible message.

Talk about family, and in the same breath send one of your own off to slaughter--some message that is. Kind of like when Dan Evans called out Shawn Green, who happened to be playing hurt all season.


Especially when it appears Rauch left to be with his real family.

SEALgep
05-29-2004, 09:29 PM
Originally posted by idseer
that is absolutely laughable.

cutting your nose off to spite your face has long been recognized as STUPID!

this team doesn't need an outlandish example to be a team. just trading him would send the message. but wait! we can't get crap for him now! cause everyone in the baseball world will know he's free!

STUPID! Wasn't the case when Milton Bradley was traded. They got a very good outfielder prospect for him. Obviously his value is more than Rauch's, but it's not as if we will only get a bag of baseballs because of what was said. We'll only get that because of how he plays.

SEALgep
05-29-2004, 09:33 PM
Originally posted by beckett21
Well, it depends on who you believe in terms of what message it says to the team.

If they told Rauch to avoid the media, and pretty much implied to him that unless he was *lights-out* that he was going right back to Charlotte, then I think it sends a horrible message.

Talk about family, and in the same breath send one of your own off to slaughter--some message that is. Kind of like when Dan Evans called out Shawn Green, who happened to be playing hurt all season.

That's not the kind of message I would like to get as a member of the Sox. Basically, if you suck, we will call you out publicly and humiliate you. Nice message. That's not it at all. You suck, so we'll call you out on it? He left the game without talking to anyone. So he was going back to Charlotte, you still stick around for the game. Want to avoid the media, ignore them as you walk out after the game. Don't ignore your teamates. Calling out a player when he's playing hurt has absolutely no analogy to what KW said about Rauch. He was right on. This is common sense guys, you don't leave until the game is over, period.

batmanZoSo
05-29-2004, 09:33 PM
Originally posted by beckett21

That's not the kind of message I would like to get as a member of the Sox. Basically, if you suck, we will call you out publicly and humiliate you. Nice message.

That's horribly not what happened.

SEALgep
05-29-2004, 09:35 PM
Originally posted by idseer
yeah ... dumping a player and getting nothing for him tells the team that this organization is too stupid to play for. You think we would be fooling some club if it weren't said?

beckett21
05-29-2004, 09:35 PM
Originally posted by JRIG
Especially when it appears Rauch left to be with his real family.

No kidding.

We may never know the honest truth. But if you ask me, the Sox side of it stinks. The guy gets rocked, and instead of the team taking responsibilty for it they make him a scapegoat. As if it was his fault that the offense made Aaron Sele look like Orel Hershiser.

I also dispute the claim that it sends the team a message that such behavior will not be tolerated. The Sox had nothing to gain from going publicly on record with this.

Nice *family*.

The more I think about it, the more it ticks me off.

beckett21
05-29-2004, 09:37 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
That's not it at all. You suck, so we'll call you out on it? He left the game without talking to anyone. So he was going back to Charlotte, you still stick around for the game. Want to avoid the media, ignore them as you walk out after the game. Don't ignore your teamates. Calling out a player when he's playing hurt has absolutely no analogy to what KW said about Rauch. He was right on. This is common sense guys, you don't leave until the game is over, period.


Originally posted by batmanZoSo


That's horribly not what happened.

I'll just assume you guys were there then.

I heard all the postgame comments as well. You can believe who you want to believe. Of course, no one wants to believe Rauch's side of the story because he was so putrid.

ChiSox7
05-29-2004, 09:38 PM
Originally posted by beckett21
Well, it depends on who you believe in terms of what message it says to the team.

If they told Rauch to avoid the media, and pretty much implied to him that unless he was *lights-out* that he was going right back to Charlotte, then I think it sends a horrible message.

Talk about family, and in the same breath send one of your own off to slaughter--some message that is. Kind of like when Dan Evans called out Shawn Green, who happened to be playing hurt all season.

That's not the kind of message I would like to get as a member of the Sox. Basically, if you suck, we will call you out publicly and humiliate you. Nice message.

Seriously. Now it's obvious you are looking for something to bash KW or somebody for. KW didn't have a problem with him sucking. He had a problem with the fact that he left his team while they were still battling after he sucked. The fact that he sucked had nothing to do with anything. If I were KW, I'd say the same thing and send a message, but NOT because he sucked. That's NOT what KW did, so dont twist his words for your own good. It's BS.

ChiSox7
05-29-2004, 09:41 PM
Originally posted by beckett21
No kidding.

We may never know the honest truth. But if you ask me, the Sox side of it stinks. The guy gets rocked, and instead of the team taking responsibilty for it they make him a scapegoat. As if it was his fault that the offense made Aaron Sele look like Orel Hershiser.

I also dispute the claim that it sends the team a message that such behavior will not be tolerated. The Sox had nothing to gain from going publicly on record with this.

Nice *family*.

The more I think about it, the more it ticks me off.

The team WOULD HAVE taken responsibility if he had not taken off after he sucked. Everybody agreed that he didn't talk to the right people before he left. The team would have GLADLY stuck up for him if he would have stayed and supported his team, whetehr in the clubhouse or dugout.

Billy Koch said it best:

"It's complete and utter bull," said White Sox closer Billy Koch, a player who rarely ducks a postgame meeting with the media, even in the worst of times. "That's the way I feel. I don't know the whole story. I know he left and showered up and that's a slap in the face to me.

"We are a team here. We are one. So what if he's making one start or two starts. For today, he's part of this family. You don't do that. It's a slap in the face to the other 24 guys in here.

"If I had his number, I would be on the phone wearing him out," Koch added. "It's not a classy move."

KW didn't have it out for him because he got rocked.

beckett21
05-29-2004, 09:48 PM
Originally posted by Jjav829
Rauch claims that this was a huge miscommunication. He says he was told to avoid the media as much as possible and knew that he wouldn't be with the big club much longer and that this was just one start. He says his family was there and that he was going to get ready to drive back down to Charlotte so it seemed like the right thing to do to leave with his family.

He says he talked to Rick Hahn and Don Cooper but that this is KW's decision now. Says he didn't mean to disrespect anyone and that he feels the Sox still believe in him. Thinks he blew the game today but respects this team.

This is what I am basing my opinion on. It is a reasonable explanation of what happened.

Hell, the guy was probably embarassed to even face his *teammates*--actually his teammates are in Charlotte, so we use the term loosely. He wasn't up here for the long haul, that much is obvious.

If he wasn't ready, and EVERYBODY KNEW he wasn't ready, what could they expect of the guy?

If they told him NOT to talk to the media, what is the sin here? I am not defending him leaving early necessarily, but it depends on what his understanding of the situation was.

As if he didn't already feel bad enough, he gets a swift kick in the stomach with the postgame comments. I was not there obviously, so this is just my perception of both sides of the story. The truth is most likely somewhere in between, but personally I have to believe Rauch's side of things. This 5th starter scenario has become such a disaster it has taken on a life of it's own. My take is that KW was just trying to deflect attention away from the situation at hand, which has been an unmitigated failure.

If KW really wanted to make a *statement,* he could have just outright released Rauch. Which is probably what he is going to have to do now anyway. It was a rash statement by the club, but once on record, it cannot be erased. Dumb, dumb, dumb.

SEALgep
05-29-2004, 09:49 PM
Originally posted by ChiSox7
The team WOULD HAVE taken responsibility if he had not taken off after he sucked. Everybody agreed that he didn't talk to the right people before he left. The team would have GLADLY stuck up for him if he would have stayed and supported his team, whetehr in the clubhouse or dugout. You are just making crap up now.

Billy Koch said it best:

"It's complete and utter bull," said White Sox closer Billy Koch, a player who rarely ducks a postgame meeting with the media, even in the worst of times. "That's the way I feel. I don't know the whole story. I know he left and showered up and that's a slap in the face to me.

"We are a team here. We are one. So what if he's making one start or two starts. For today, he's part of this family. You don't do that. It's a slap in the face to the other 24 guys in here.

"If I had his number, I would be on the phone wearing him out," Koch added. "It's not a classy move."

KW didn't have it out for him because he got rocked. Whew, way to go Billy! :)

beckett21
05-29-2004, 09:53 PM
Originally posted by ChiSox7
Seriously. Now it's obvious you are looking for something to bash KW or somebody for. KW didn't have a problem with him sucking. He had a problem with the fact that he left his team while they were still battling after he sucked. The fact that he sucked had nothing to do with anything. If I were KW, I'd say the same thing and send a message, but NOT because he sucked. That's NOT what KW did, so dont twist his words for your own good. It's BS.

I don't see where I could possibly *twist his words* for *my* own good:

1) I have nothing to gain from any of this nonsense

2) Generally I am a staunch KW supporter.

This is my opinion, and while GENERALLY I defend KW, I don't here.

If Billy Koch wants to kick Rauch's ass, let him have at it for all I care. It's a TEAM issue, let the TEAM handle it. Don't fight your battles thru the media. Cowardly in my book.

I was not there. You believe what you want to believe, I'll believe what I want to believe.

StockdaleForVeep
05-29-2004, 09:57 PM
:jerry
"hey kiddo, welcome to unemployment....Kish?"

Lip Man 1
05-29-2004, 09:59 PM
From the AP recap of the game:

"Jon Rauch had a short one-game stay in the big leagues with the Chicago White Sox, and he might face a tough task getting back.

The 6-foot-11 Rauch was making his first major league start since Sept. 27, 2002, and he might not get another with the White Sox. He gave up five runs and 10 hits in just 3 2-3 innings and, left the clubhouse before the end of the game, according to team spokesman Scott Reifert.

General manager Ken Williams had gone to the clubhouse after the game to tell Rauch he was going back to Triple-A.

"Kenny said that's not something we condone here. We're a family. We root for each other," Reifert said. "That severely hampered his chances of ever pitching in Chicago again."

But Rauch said it was all a misunderstanding and apologized in a telephone call to the White Sox's flagship radio station on its postgame show and said he will talk with Williams.

"The whole thing was a huge miscommunication," Rauch said. "I want to apologize for any miscommunication. I want to apologize to my teammates. I'm not like that," Rauch said. "I just wanted to get out of there and be with my family."

Lip

SEALgep
05-29-2004, 09:59 PM
Originally posted by beckett21

If Billy Koch wants to kick Rauch's ass, let him have at it for all I care. It's a TEAM issue, let the TEAM handle it. Don't fight your battles thru the media. Cowardly in my book.
Koch is part of the team, and he obviously was on the same page as the rest of team. If were up to Billy, and probably some other guys, they wouldn't have to be "cowardly" through the media, but Rauch took off before they could confront him.

batmanZoSo
05-29-2004, 09:59 PM
Originally posted by beckett21
I don't see where I could possibly *twist his words* for *my* own good:

1) I have nothing to gain from any of this nonsense

2) Generally I am a staunch KW supporter.

This is my opinion, and while GENERALLY I defend KW, I don't here.

If Billy Koch wants to kick Rauch's ass, let him have at it for all I care. It's a TEAM issue, let the TEAM handle it. Don't fight your battles thru the media. Cowardly in my book.

I was not there. You believe what you want to believe, I'll believe what I want to believe.

It's not a matter of believe what you want to believe. The big issue is that everyone's pissed because Rauch jetted without telling anyone. It wasn't handled in the classiest (or wisest) way by KW, but Rauch is clearly the bad guy. There's nothing to support what he did and KW certainly isn't in the wrong for reacting as he did.

SEALgep
05-29-2004, 10:02 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1

"The whole thing was a huge miscommunication," Rauch said. "I want to apologize for any miscommunication. I want to apologize to my teammates. I'm not like that," Rauch said. "I just wanted to get out of there and be with my family."
For those 9 innings, that was your family. Saying you wanted to get out of there to be with your family when the game wasn't over shows me there wasn't any miscommunication at all. Hey, maybe I'm crazy.

batmanZoSo
05-29-2004, 10:04 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
"I just wanted to get out of there and be with my family."

Lip

LOL. He's handling this one like a pro. America likes values...good move.

The other day I was in a long line at the grocery store so I knocked out everyone in front of me so I wouldn't be late for family dinner....

jeremyb1
05-29-2004, 10:07 PM
Well first of all, I think that calling players an embarassment and a disgrace is over the top for any Sox player. I'm a fan and I'm going to do my best to give the players the benefit of the doubt. Also, personally I find that language unacceptable for just about anyone because I believe in forgiving people for mistakes.

I think people raised some great points about double standards that have been raised in this thread.

1) Frank was laid into by his teammates in the past for supposedly spending large amounts of time in the clubhouse instead of in the dugout with his teammates. I don't remember anyone suggesting we cut him.

2) Frank has made some highly questionable remarks over the years which some have described as embarassing to the team. However, a number of the people that made these comments have been brutally attacked and accused of failing to support a great Sox player and the organization. Why no such outrage and people saying awful things about Rauch? It depends on the calliber of the player? That seems ridiculous to me.

3) PK was lambasted nationally for calling out Frank instead of keeping his beef internal and yet now Rauch has been called out by Paully (again), Koch, and our GM. There's no grey area here. Either these issues need to remain internal and that principle needs to be upheld throughout the organization or it is okay to blast teammates in the press under certain circumstances.

Finally, I love how it is simply assumed that Rauch's story is a complete fabriacation by most. The truth should be pretty verifiable, Hahn and Coop are available to the media. I think that rushing to judgement here is pretty unreasonable when the truth may very well be on the way.

beckett21
05-29-2004, 10:07 PM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo
It's not a matter of believe what you want to believe. The big issue is that everyone's pissed because Rauch jetted without telling anyone. It wasn't handled in the classiest (or wisest) way by KW, but Rauch is clearly the bad guy. There's nothing to support what he did and KW certainly isn't in the wrong for reacting as he did.

I understand that side of it. The players have a right to be pissed. But my question is, is that the whole story?

The question is, what did the organization tell Rauch before the game? If he was given orders NOT to talk to the media in the event that he lost or something, maybe it was implied to him or he was even told to scram before the media crunch.

Rauch was dammed either way the way I look at it. The rest of the team has a right to be mad at the guy, but that doesn't necessarily mean that Rauch quit on them or ran out on them on purpose. The players may not know the whole story either.

Reinsy and Co. don't exactly have a history of being the most forthcoming with information. Gross generalization on my part, perhaps, but why should I believe them over some poor kid fighting for his professional life?

HomerCoach
05-29-2004, 10:08 PM
Rauch knew he was here for one game and immaturely decided that he wanted to visit his family (and probably lick his wounds) while he could before returning to Charlotte. NO WAY KW or his PR man should have made those comments. The whole incident is being blown up bigger than it should be. The loss makes everything 100 times worse, if the Sox came back to win 6-5 this wouldn't even be an issue (or would hardly be an issue). Dude made a mistake (followed by a mistake by KW/PR guy) and hopefully details and apologies result.

BTW, I will never chose a pitcher as my PTC again!

elrod
05-29-2004, 10:08 PM
Loaiza, Konerko and Koch all called Rauch out for this. The team was pissed. KW simply reflected the attitude of the team. Whether KW needed to say what he said is immaterial. I think it helps the team for KW to get out in front of this rather than pretend it didn't happen and quietly move him. And as for trade value? Lots of players get moved because they're headcases. Some other team is likely to see potential in him and take a chance. It's really disappointing because I didn't think this appearance was enough to keep him from pitching in the five spot again. His command was off but he did get ahead of hitters. Maybe with a few more starts he'd be better off. Not a great pitcher but maybe have a 5 or 6 ERA. Now it's too late.

Iguana775
05-29-2004, 10:10 PM
I used to be one of the BIGGEST Rauch fans.....key words.....used to

PaulDrake
05-29-2004, 10:13 PM
I've posted this before a while back but I'll do it again. I went to a Charlotte game last year with a friend. Rauch was the starter against Rochester, the Twins affiliate. He was getting absolutely hammered. After giving up a particularly long home run he glared at his catcher for about 15-20 seconds. I asked my friend, did I miss something, was he shaking off the catcher a lot, did anything seem to precipitate this? My friend said no. Rauch has had no particular velocity or location in all the times I've seen him in person or on the tube. Whatever he had in 2000 appears to be long gone. I officially gave up on him after the above mentioned game last year.

batmanZoSo
05-29-2004, 10:15 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
Well first of all, I think that calling players an embarassment and a disgrace is over the top for any Sox player. I'm a fan and I'm going to do my best to give the players the benefit of the doubt. Also, personally I find that language unacceptable for just about anyone because I believe in forgiving people for mistakes.

I think people raised some great points about double standards that have been raised in this thread.

1) Frank was laid into by his teammates in the past for supposedly spending large amounts of time in the clubhouse instead of in the dugout with his teammates. I don't remember anyone suggesting we cut him.

2) Frank has made some highly questionable remarks over the years which some have described as embarassing to the team. However, a number of the people that made these comments have been brutally attacked and accused of failing to support a great Sox player and the organization. Why no such outrage and people saying awful things about Rauch? It depends on the calliber of the player? That seems ridiculous to me.

3) PK was lambasted nationally for calling out Frank instead of keeping his beef internal and yet now Rauch has been called out by Paully (again), Koch, and our GM. There's no grey area here. Either these issues need to remain internal and that principle needs to be upheld throughout the organization or it is okay to blast teammates in the press under certain circumstances.

Finally, I love how it is simply assumed that Rauch's story is a complete fabriacation by most. The truth should be pretty verifiable, Hahn and Coop are available to the media. I think that rushing to judgement here is pretty unreasonable when the truth may very well be on the way.

1) Frank does not equal Jon Rauch, nor do their crimes equal each other.

beckett21
05-29-2004, 10:15 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
Koch is part of the team, and he obviously was on the same page as the rest of team. If were up to Billy, and probably some other guys, they wouldn't have to be "cowardly" through the media, but Rauch took off before they could confront him.

The organization ripping one of their own thru the media was cowardly and uncalled for. A, "No comment," or "we'll handle this internally" would have been sufficient.

To say the guy will never pitch again in Chicago, and if you are a GM interested in his services give us a call....that is uncalled for whether it is true or not.

Rex Hudler
05-29-2004, 10:16 PM
For KW thru a spokesman to throw Rauch under the bus and say how they are a *family*, it kind of bothers me that he would hang Rauch out to dry like that.

Rauch has a history of doing things that don't fit into the mold of a team. It's not like he has been a model citizen and this is his first offense.

SEALgep
05-29-2004, 10:20 PM
Originally posted by beckett21
The organization ripping one of their own thru the media was cowardly and uncalled for. A, "No comment," or "we'll handle this internally" would have been sufficient.

To say the guy will never pitch again in Chicago, and if you are a GM interested in his services give us a call....that is uncalled for whether it is true or not. As Rex said, this wasn't his first offense. The fact that he couldn't stick around to support his teammates to try to clean up his mess is more cowardly than your making the rest of the organization out to be. This guy didn't care about the game, and decided to do his own thing because he was upset. That's not only cowardly, it's being a baby.

CHISOXFAN13
05-29-2004, 10:26 PM
Originally posted by JRIG
Especially when it appears Rauch left to be with his real family.

What gives this guy more of a right to be with his family than any other member of the White sox ball club?

So he couldn't wait an additional two hours?

HomerCoach
05-29-2004, 10:27 PM
Originally posted by Rex Hudler
Rauch has a history of doing things that don't fit into the mold of a team. It's not like he has been a model citizen and this is his first offense.

And the same team that signs JOSE (everyone is on steroids but me) CANSECO throws Rauch under the bus without a conversation/explination from him first? We know this management has little PR polish and lacks honest negotiating and communication skills. I for one am not ready yet to roast Rauch and praise KW (for taking internal affairs to the airways).

beckett21
05-29-2004, 10:30 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
As Rex said, this wasn't his first offense. The fact that he couldn't stick around to support his teammates to try to clean up his mess is more cowardly than your making the rest of the organization out to be. This guy didn't care about the game, and decided to do his own thing because he was upset. That's not only cowardly, it's being a baby.

Boy, it's been awhile since I've been engaged in combat with you SEAL! LOL...

OK, KW proved his point. Now what?

Does it make him look any better for bringing up a guy with suspect talent and suspect make-up? No.

If this was such a mistake, then it never should have happened in the first place, no?

Is is Rauch's fault that he was grossly overmatched?

If there were character issues, were these not taken into consideration?

What Rauch did is characteristic of a quitter, I won't dispute that. I don't know the man, like others here seem to or at least know of his history. But wasn't the writing on the wall for him? What are all the facts surrounding this situation? There has to be more to it IMO.

It's very easy to sweep Rauch under the rug and make him disappear. Who are we going to blame next time? Who is going to donate the next pound of flesh???

Jjav829
05-29-2004, 10:35 PM
Originally posted by beckett21
I understand that side of it. The players have a right to be pissed. But my question is, is that the whole story?

The question is, what did the organization tell Rauch before the game? If he was given orders NOT to talk to the media in the event that he lost or something, maybe it was implied to him or he was even told to scram before the media crunch.

Rauch was dammed either way the way I look at it. The rest of the team has a right to be mad at the guy, but that doesn't necessarily mean that Rauch quit on them or ran out on them on purpose. The players may not know the whole story either.

Reinsy and Co. don't exactly have a history of being the most forthcoming with information. Gross generalization on my part, perhaps, but why should I believe them over some poor kid fighting for his professional life?

I don't get it. You keep referring to what the organization might have told Rauch. But KW IS the organization. If orders are going to come to Rauch to not talk to the media or be ready to leave before the media is allowed in, they're gonna come from KW. The fact that KW wasn't aware that Rauch was leaving throws that story out. Rauch messed up. Should KW have released a statement saying that he is done? Probably not. But that doesn't excuse Rauch from leaving early. Nonetheless, if anyone thought highly of Rauch before this, I doubt this incident will decrease their interest. The Sox aren't being forced to get rid of Rauch. They can choose not to get rid of him and simply send him back to AAA to rot until his 6 years are up. It's not like this isn't a situation that can't be patched up. A meeting between the two parties would probably resolve the hard feelings.

MRKARNO
05-29-2004, 10:36 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
Well first of all, I think that calling players an embarassment and a disgrace is over the top for any Sox player. I'm a fan and I'm going to do my best to give the players the benefit of the doubt. Also, personally I find that language unacceptable for just about anyone because I believe in forgiving people for mistakes.

I think people raised some great points about double standards that have been raised in this thread.

1) Frank was laid into by his teammates in the past for supposedly spending large amounts of time in the clubhouse instead of in the dugout with his teammates. I don't remember anyone suggesting we cut him.

2) Frank has made some highly questionable remarks over the years which some have described as embarassing to the team. However, a number of the people that made these comments have been brutally attacked and accused of failing to support a great Sox player and the organization. Why no such outrage and people saying awful things about Rauch? It depends on the calliber of the player? That seems ridiculous to me.

3) PK was lambasted nationally for calling out Frank instead of keeping his beef internal and yet now Rauch has been called out by Paully (again), Koch, and our GM. There's no grey area here. Either these issues need to remain internal and that principle needs to be upheld throughout the organization or it is okay to blast teammates in the press under certain circumstances.

Finally, I love how it is simply assumed that Rauch's story is a complete fabriacation by most. The truth should be pretty verifiable, Hahn and Coop are available to the media. I think that rushing to judgement here is pretty unreasonable when the truth may very well be on the way.


Frank has been with this team for 15 years now. He is one of the best hitters in baseball right now. He already is the best hitter in White Sox history. He is already more deserving to go to the Hall of Fame than some people that are there already.

Rauch has been with this team for 1 day now. He had just given up 5 runs in one inning. He is just another piece of the joke on this team called the fifth starter. He will probably never do anything in the major leagues.

There is no way to equate the two. Frank can do whatever the hell he wants to ensure that he's playing as well as possible as far as I'm concerned unless it hurts other teamates. I dont care if he makes a stupid remark because he has so much else to his credit. (AKA 428 career Homers, 1429 career walks, 1418 career RBIs, .309 average and .429 OBP)

MRKARNO
05-29-2004, 10:37 PM
:tomatoaward

TornLabrum
05-29-2004, 10:37 PM
Originally posted by beckett21
No kidding.

We may never know the honest truth. But if you ask me, the Sox side of it stinks. The guy gets rocked, and instead of the team taking responsibilty for it they make him a scapegoat. As if it was his fault that the offense made Aaron Sele look like Orel Hershiser.

I also dispute the claim that it sends the team a message that such behavior will not be tolerated. The Sox had nothing to gain from going publicly on record with this.

Nice *family*.

The more I think about it, the more it ticks me off.

Well, if anyone knows about the model family, it's Kenny Williams.

Oops...did I just say that?

Jjav829
05-29-2004, 10:38 PM
Originally posted by beckett21
It's very easy to sweep Rauch under the rug and make him disappear. Who are we going to blame next time? Who is going to donate the next pound of flesh???

You're making this into something it isn't. This has nothing to do with not being able to find a #5 starter (aside from if we had one Rauch never would have been up here to leave the game early). This has to do with Rauch leaving the game early with permission from KW.

If you want to go on about the Sox mishandling the #5 starter spot, fine. But that is a separate argument from this.

RKMeibalane
05-29-2004, 10:47 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
Well first of all, I think that calling players an embarassment and a disgrace is over the top for any Sox player. I'm a fan and I'm going to do my best to give the players the benefit of the doubt. Also, personally I find that language unacceptable for just about anyone because I believe in forgiving people for mistakes.

I think people raised some great points about double standards that have been raised in this thread.

1) Frank was laid into by his teammates in the past for supposedly spending large amounts of time in the clubhouse instead of in the dugout with his teammates. I don't remember anyone suggesting we cut him.

2) Frank has made some highly questionable remarks over the years which some have described as embarassing to the team. However, a number of the people that made these comments have been brutally attacked and accused of failing to support a great Sox player and the organization. Why no such outrage and people saying awful things about Rauch? It depends on the calliber of the player? That seems ridiculous to me.

3) PK was lambasted nationally for calling out Frank instead of keeping his beef internal and yet now Rauch has been called out by Paully (again), Koch, and our GM. There's no grey area here. Either these issues need to remain internal and that principle needs to be upheld throughout the organization or it is okay to blast teammates in the press under certain circumstances.

Finally, I love how it is simply assumed that Rauch's story is a complete fabriacation by most. The truth should be pretty verifiable, Hahn and Coop are available to the media. I think that rushing to judgement here is pretty unreasonable when the truth may very well be on the way.

Frank Thomas has never done anything that is anywhere near as stupid as what Rauch did today. Like him or not, Frank has always supported his teammates and tried to help his team any way he can. It was Thomas who took extra time last season to work with Konerko on his swing, and it was Thomas who helped guys like Aaron Rowand fit in when they first joined the club. Rauch has done **** in his career, yet he thinks it's acceptable to leave his teammates behind in the middle of an important game against a team that the Sox may end up facing in the post-season.

To compare Rauch's actions to anything Frank has done is unreasonable. Frank Thomas is HOF-callber player. After today, Jon Rauch may not be a baseball player, period.

beckett21
05-29-2004, 10:50 PM
Originally posted by Jjav829
You're making this into something it isn't. This has nothing to do with not being able to find a #5 starter (aside from if we had one Rauch never would have been up here to leave the game early). This has to do with Rauch leaving the game early with permission from KW.

If you want to go on about the Sox mishandling the #5 starter spot, fine. But that is a separate argument from this.

It was yet another attempt at finding a fifth starter which blew up in KW's face. IMO it's not a stretch to link the two arguments.

Rauch may well have messed up. I will concede that point. My greater issue is with how the situation was handled by the Sox. The public statement was over the top and did nothing to help anybody. All it did was to add fuel to the fire. He could have been disciplined, and it could have come out publicly later. No need to kick a guy when he's down.

I'm still not convinced that we have all the facts. Innocent until proven guilty, right?

DaveIsHere
05-29-2004, 11:02 PM
Originally posted by dpbyron
His trade value was greatly diminished BEFORE he left the game when he looked like a high school pitcher throwing straight as an arrow and getting knocked all over the place.

What Kenny Williams did by taking this public was essentially tell every player in the organization that bull**** like this WILL NOT BE TOLERATED.

EXACTLY, at the very least make an example of him, make sure he never pitches in the majors again. I cannot believe that an AAA player left the game before it had ended...get him outta here!!!

SEALgep
05-29-2004, 11:02 PM
Originally posted by beckett21
Innocent until proven guilty, right? That's only in the court of law, and even if it were true in this case, I sure wouldn't want to be the one defending his case.

RKMeibalane
05-29-2004, 11:03 PM
Originally posted by beckett21
I'm still not convinced that we have all the facts. Innocent until proven guilty, right?

My only concern is that Rauch left the game before it was over. Regardless of the circumstances, that should not have happened, so he is guilty of that crime.

beckett21
05-29-2004, 11:05 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
That's only in the court of law, and even if it were true in this case, I sure wouldn't want to be the one defending his case.

I see. So in the court of public opinion, this one has already been decided. Nice how that works.

PaleHoseGeorge
05-29-2004, 11:06 PM
1.) Rauch should have stayed with the team until the game ended. Checking with *Cooper* and then leaving to be with family to comply with what the team told him to "avoid the media" sounds very hollow. He is a professional. He knows better than to think any of this is okay or claim he misunderstood his directive.

2.) It is really chicken**** that KW would use Reifert to issue a statement like he did. If you're so righteously pissed, why hide behind somebody else, Kenny? KW used Reifert as his mouthpiece without even talking to Rauch first. If Rauch didn't show class leaving early, KW sure didn't either with how he handled the matter.

3.) The Sox GM is hanging his pitcher out to dry. Contrary to at least one opinion stated here, the only thing that will get communicated throughout the Sox organization is how short-tempered and ill-equipped Kenny Williams is to be given the responsibilities of being a major league GM. That job takes more tack than this guy is capable of, the same guy who tosses over clubhouse buffet tables and calls everyone in the room bitches and mother****ers. What a clown...

4.) Rauch had little trade value either before or after getting shellacked by Anaheim. This doesn't excuse one bit of what Kenny Williams did today.

5.) It's precisely these sorts of stupid distractions that keeps a team from concentrating on their real goal they are supposed to achieve, namely winning ballgames. I cannot fathom any possible good that could come from how KW exacerbated a bad situation following today's game. Ozzie is gone for one day and the wheels immediately fall off the clubhouse cart. The team was playing well and now Ozzie must get everyone focused on Sunday's game and not what the idiot GM did after a rookie got shellacked while Ozzie was in Florida. Sigh... more of the same from this outfit...

FarWestChicago
05-29-2004, 11:06 PM
Originally posted by beckett21
I'm still not convinced that we have all the facts. Innocent until proven guilty, right? Now we have a FOL (Friend of Lurch). I've seen everything. :o:

beckett21
05-29-2004, 11:09 PM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane
My only concern is that Rauch left the game before it was over. Regardless of the circumstances, that should not have happened, so he is guilty of that crime.

I can't say that Rauch leaving early doesn't concern me, but I was more concerned with his performance.

I can easily see how there may have been a misunderstanding between KW and Rauch. That doesn't necessarily absolve Rauch, but it also doesn't mean that he went AWOL either.

The Sox did not need to take such an aggressive stance publicly IMO. It is apparent that I am in the minority here of that opinion.

FarWestChicago
05-29-2004, 11:11 PM
Originally posted by beckett21
It is apparent that I am in the minority here of that opinion. Hey, you have PHG on our side. If he gets wound up you're in good shape. :D:

SEALgep
05-29-2004, 11:13 PM
Originally posted by beckett21
I see. So in the court of public opinion, this one has already been decided. Nice how that works. If it comes out that Rauch simply forgot that he actually left because of a family emergency and that KW's forgot that he got a phone call from Rauch stating that being the case, then I'll gladly forget everything as well. Not likely though.

beckett21
05-29-2004, 11:14 PM
Originally posted by FarWestChicago
Now we have a FOL (Friend of Lurch). I've seen everything. :o:

I've been branded.... :)


Rauch was put in a bad position to start with. Here today, gone tomorrow (or in this case today).

KW is here for the duration. He needs to chose his words more carefully.

jeremyb1
05-29-2004, 11:14 PM
Originally posted by MRKARNO
Frank has been with this team for 15 years now. He is one of the best hitters in baseball right now. He already is the best hitter in White Sox history. He is already more deserving to go to the Hall of Fame than some people that are there already.

Rauch has been with this team for 1 day now. He had just given up 5 runs in one inning. He is just another piece of the joke on this team called the fifth starter. He will probably never do anything in the major leagues.

There is no way to equate the two. Frank can do whatever the hell he wants to ensure that he's playing as well as possible as far as I'm concerned unless it hurts other teamates. I dont care if he makes a stupid remark because he has so much else to his credit. (AKA 428 career Homers, 1429 career walks, 1418 career RBIs, .309 average and .429 OBP)

Originally posted by RKMeibalane
Frank Thomas has never done anything that is anywhere near as stupid as what Rauch did today. Like him or not, Frank has always supported his teammates and tried to help his team any way he can. It was Thomas who took extra time last season to work with Konerko on his swing, and it was Thomas who helped guys like Aaron Rowand fit in when they first joined the club. Rauch has done **** in his career, yet he thinks it's acceptable to leave his teammates behind in the middle of an important game against a team that the Sox may end up facing in the post-season.

To compare Rauch's actions to anything Frank has done is unreasonable. Frank Thomas is HOF-callber player. After today, Jon Rauch may not be a baseball player, period.

This is what I was getting at in my post. I think it's disgusting to call Rauch a disgrace and an embarassment and then argue that the same criteria for evaluating player's actions doesn't apply to every player, it depends on the calliber of the player.

As far as Rauch's and Thomas' actions being different, I completely disagree. The idea is whether or not the player is there supporting his teammates. Whether he's hanging out in the clubhouse or he's left the clubhouse seems close to irrelevant to me at least from the perspective of one's teammates. The bottom line is your not on the bench supporting the club. Your teammates don't even know whether you're in the clubhouse or not during the game. Rauch's actions may have been slightly worse but the principle is idential.

As far as the difference between Frank and Rauch, as far as evaluating the morality of their actions I find it sickening to hear people say there could be a different standard. I'd certainly put up with more from a great player like Frank since he is more valuable to the team but that doesn't alter the legitimacy of his actions.

Finally, sure Frank has been a great teammate at times. I never argued otherwise, I'm a huge fan of Frank Thomas the ballplayer and the person. However, why not give Rauch that same benefit of the doubt? He is a White Sox player. He didn't have time to work with anyone on their swing the day he was recalled. I've never been in a clubhouse with him, no one has any knowledge that he hasn't been a good teammate on other occasions.

It's just a shame because if Rauch never goes under the knife (probably the club's fault for not handling him more carefully), he's probably an All-Star by now and no one here cares at all about how good of a teammate he is or even if he leaves a game early (which wouldn't have come out if he's an All-Star). His actions are the same no matter what.

A. Cavatica
05-29-2004, 11:15 PM
Originally posted by beckett21
It is apparent that I am in the minority here of that opinion.

I'm with beckett21 on all points.

PaleHoseGeorge
05-29-2004, 11:15 PM
Originally posted by FarWestChicago
Hey, you have PHG on our side. If he gets wound up you're in good shape. :D:

Ahem... <now stepping onto my soapbox> :smile:

I completely understand KW being pissed. It is his use of the Sox PR director to publicly paste Rauch and start a media firestorm that makes positively no sense.

The team was playing well. They don't need distractions completely fabricated by their GM. These sorts of dime store motivational techniques ought to be saved for when the ballclub is getting its ass handed to them... like the Lovable Losers right now, for example.

:)

beckett21
05-29-2004, 11:15 PM
Originally posted by FarWestChicago
Hey, you have PHG on our side. If he gets wound up you're in good shape. :D:

I'm running out of ammo.....this ship's taking on a lot of water right about now! :D:

SEALgep
05-29-2004, 11:16 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
1.)
2.) It is really chicken**** that KW would use Reifert to issue a statement like he did. If you're so righteously pissed, why hide behind somebody else, Kenny? KW used Reifert as his mouthpiece without even talking to Rauch first. If Rauch didn't show class leaving early, KW sure didn't either with how he handled the matter.
KW's was probably on the phone trying to trade this idiot instead of going to the press conference.

jeremyb1
05-29-2004, 11:18 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
If Rauch didn't show class leaving early, KW sure didn't either with how he handled the matter.

3.) The Sox GM is hanging his pitcher out to dry. Contrary to at least one opinion stated here, the only thing that will get communicated throughout the Sox organization is how short-tempered and ill-equipped Kenny Williams is to be given the responsibilities of being a major league GM. That job takes more tack than this guy is capable of, the same guy who tosses over clubhouse buffet tables and calls everyone in the room bitches and mother****ers. What a clown...

I couldn't agree more. Too bad we can't banish KW to AAA or trade him. Way to be a calm professional. Someone needs to 1) send KW to anger management classes 2) inform him that it is the job of the manager to send messages and pump up the team not the GM if he has a problem with that he can appoint himself manager too.

beckett21
05-29-2004, 11:18 PM
Originally posted by FarWestChicago
Hey, you have PHG on our side. If he gets wound up you're in good shape. :D:


Originally posted by A. Cavatica


I'm with beckett21 on all points.

That's a relief....I was starting to feel like Jon Rauch!

SEALgep
05-29-2004, 11:19 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Ahem... <now stepping onto my soapbox> :smile:

I completely understand KW being pissed. It is his use of the Sox PR director to publicly paste Rauch and start a media firestorm that makes positively no sense.

The team was playing well. They don't need distractions completely fabricated by their GM. These sorts of dime store motivational techniques ought to be saved for when the ballclub is getting its ass handed to them... like the Lovable Losers right now, for example.

:) I'm not going to say you're wrong, but I have to disagree. KW's seems to have stated what every guy on the 25 man roster was thinking, and I'm fairly sure they applaud what he did. Maybe not, but at least we know Billy's down with it. :D:

SEALgep
05-29-2004, 11:20 PM
Originally posted by beckett21
That's a relief....I was starting to feel like Jon Rauch! Hey guys, he said he was Jon Rauch. GET HIM! :D:

beckett21
05-29-2004, 11:20 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
KW's was probably on the phone trying to trade this idiot instead of going to the press conference.

Yes because we ALL know that the BEST time to trade a player is right about when their trade value is at it's rock-bottom level.

Brian26
05-29-2004, 11:22 PM
Originally posted by beckett21
The organization ripping one of their own thru the media was cowardly and uncalled for. A, "No comment," or "we'll handle this internally" would have been sufficient.


I'm absolutely befuddled as to why you're going to such great lengths to protect and defend Rauch. CLTV had some magnificent interviews tonight with Koch, Rauch, and Konerko, in addition to playing Reifert's comments again. Jeff Dickerson from ESPN Radio was also on the line, as he was the guy who broke the story with Willsy. The BOTTOM LINE is that Rauch did something that infuriated the rest of the team. It's not just an issue with Kenny Williams or one or two other guys. Basically, the entire team was livid with Rauch.

It was a low-class, bush-league manuever. You stay until the end of the game, bottom line.

If ANYTHING good comes out of this, it's the fact that the team seems to have come a bit closer together by looking at themselves because of this incident.

There's no way you can defend Rauch's actions in this case, though. He's old enough to know better than to do something so ignorant.

A. Cavatica
05-29-2004, 11:23 PM
Originally posted by beckett21
Yes because we ALL know that the BEST time to trade a player is right about when their trade value is at it's rock-bottom level.

Sweet justice would be Rauch and Konerko being traded in the same deal.

Brian26
05-29-2004, 11:24 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
If it comes out that Rauch simply forgot that he actually left because of a family emergency and that KW's forgot that he got a phone call from Rauch stating that being the case, then I'll gladly forget everything as well. Not likely though.

Fantastic post, Seal. I agree 100%

PaleHoseGeorge
05-29-2004, 11:24 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
I'm not going to say you're wrong, but I have to disagree. KW's seems to have stated what every guy on the 25 man roster was thinking, and I'm fairly sure they applaud what he did. Maybe not, but at least we know Billy's down with it. :D:

Hey, I'm all for all 25 guys in the clubhouse speaking out as one on the matter. More power to them! Unfortunately it is not the job of the general manager to do this on their behalf. He is sticking his nose where it doesn't belong, and I'm willing to bet Billy Koch has said something along these lines in private to one or more of his teammates over beers this evening.

Hey West, we've got jeremy as a member of the FOL. We'll take on all comers, even Randar!

:)

SEALgep
05-29-2004, 11:25 PM
Originally posted by beckett21
Yes because we ALL know that the BEST time to trade a player is right about when their trade value is at it's rock-bottom level. I know you said it sarcastically, but what is he to do? If he traded him before this incident, many more people would have his head for it. Fortunately from my point of view, his trade value is about the same. Rock-bottom or not, he wasn't worth much to begin with. His greatest attribute is being tall, and I'd gladly trade him for a decent A or AA kid of any position.

MRKARNO
05-29-2004, 11:27 PM
Originally posted by A. Cavatica
Sweet justice would be Rauch and Konerko being traded in the same deal.

Konerko is on pace for 34 Homers and 117 RBIs. Not exactly the guy I want to be trading. Plus his .413 avg w/RISP has to mean something.

SEALgep
05-29-2004, 11:28 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Hey, I'm all for all 25 guys in the clubhouse speaking out as one on the matter. More power to them! Unfortunately it is not the job of the general manager to do this on their behalf.
:) I thought that was exactly what his job is, among other duties.

Brian26
05-29-2004, 11:31 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Hey, I'm all for all 25 guys in the clubhouse speaking out as one on the matter....Unfortunately it is not the job of the general manager to do this on their behalf. He is sticking his nose where it doesn't belong

Not sure if I agree with you on this one. I think it's absolutely necessary for the GM to listen to his team in making personnel decisions, and if he wants to echo those thoughts and opinions to the media, either directly or indirectly, I've got no problem with that. Hell, I'm happy that Kenny's so damn passionate about this thing that he's down there right after the game. If it was Schueler still at the helm, we wouldn't have heard anything about it for about a week. I like it when Kenny gets fired up. Passion is what this game is all about.

beckett21
05-29-2004, 11:31 PM
Originally posted by Brian26
I'm absolutely befuddled as to why you're going to such great lengths to protect and defend Rauch. CLTV had some magnificent interviews tonight with Koch, Rauch, and Konerko, in addition to playing Reifert's comments again. Jeff Dickerson from ESPN Radio was also on the line, as he was the guy who broke the story with Willsy. The BOTTOM LINE is that Rauch did something that infuriated the rest of the team. It's not just an issue with Kenny Williams or one or two other guys. Basically, the entire team was livid with Rauch.

It was a low-class, bush-league manuever. You stay until the end of the game, bottom line.

If ANYTHING good comes out of this, it's the fact that the team seems to have come a bit closer together by looking at themselves because of this incident.

There's no way you can defend Rauch's actions in this case, though. He's old enough to know better than to do something so ignorant.

Rauch was put in a position for which he was grossly underprepared, and KW knew it.

Rauch's actions were wrong, but hardly unforgivable. It was a mistake, we all make mistakes. I'm not saying he was right, but holy smokes let's not crucify the guy.

The postgame statement and reaction was excessively over the top IMO. There are better ways to enforce rules and discipline players than thru public humiliation. Just as much of a low-class bush-league maneuver as far as I am concerned.

How did I get into this mess? :?: :)

PaleHoseGeorge
05-29-2004, 11:32 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
I thought that was exactly what his job is, among other duties.

Really? You honestly think that's the GM's job? Very interesting...

Earl Weaver was a pretty good manager and he used to say his job was to keep the five guys who hated his guts away from the other 20 guys who were still undecided. I'm sure he would be amused to hear your take on what his boss's job was all about.

:smile:

beckett21
05-29-2004, 11:34 PM
Originally posted by Brian26
Not sure if I agree with you on this one. I think it's absolutely necessary for the GM to listen to his team in making personnel decisions, and if he wants to echo those thoughts and opinions to the media, either directly or indirectly, I've got no problem with that. Hell, I'm happy that Kenny's so damn passionate about this thing that he's down there right after the game. If it was Schueler still at the helm, we wouldn't have heard anything about it for about a week. I like it when Kenny gets fired up. Passion is what this game is all about.

You've got to pick your spots.

The team was playing well up to today. No need for this circus. Just a big smokescreen, for no good reason.

Just ship him down, admit it was a mistake, and move on. No need to attack his character, warrented or not.

SEALgep
05-29-2004, 11:36 PM
Originally posted by beckett21

How did I get into this mess? :?: :)
Because a lot of people think you're arrogant because you believe in yourself. You're not going to apologize for that. You don't care if people dislike you. Screw them. You do things your way... You don't ever expect to fail. :D:

Maybe KW's feels the same way?

beckett21
05-29-2004, 11:38 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
I know you said it sarcastically, but what is he to do? If he traded him before this incident, many more people would have his head for it. Fortunately from my point of view, his trade value is about the same. Rock-bottom or not, he wasn't worth much to begin with. His greatest attribute is being tall, and I'd gladly trade him for a decent A or AA kid of any position.

Character assassination is no way to build up trade value, I'll tell you that much.

Brian26
05-29-2004, 11:39 PM
Originally posted by beckett21
Just ship him down, admit it was a mistake, and move on. No need to attack his character, warrented or not.

It seems like people are trying to blame this on Rauch's performance on the field today. That has NOTHING to do with it. Hell, if he pitched 5 scoreless innings and then got pulled for a reliever, and then pulled the SAME stunt by leaving before the end of the game, it would be the SAME situation. Bringing him up to pitch was NOT a mistake. Whether he suceeded or failed on the field today isn't the problem. The problem is that his boss was looking for him after the game, and he had already showered, changed, packed up his gear and left the office. Not a good move, period.

SEALgep
05-29-2004, 11:40 PM
Originally posted by beckett21
Character assassination is no way to build up trade value, I'll tell you that much. No one is trying to build up his trade value, it is what it is. If we can't get anything for him, we'll release him. It's that simple, and either scenerio will have no effect because of what KW said IMO.

beckett21
05-29-2004, 11:40 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
Because a lot of people think you're arrogant because you believe in yourself. You're not going to apologize for that. You don't care if people dislike you. Screw them. You do things your way... You don't ever expect to fail. :D:

Maybe KW's feels the same way?

Well the next time KW wins the World Series, he can cop that attitude. Until then, he better keep his ear to the ground and his mouth shut!

SEALgep
05-29-2004, 11:42 PM
Originally posted by beckett21
Well the next time KW wins the World Series, he can cop that attitude. Until then, he better keep his ear to the ground and his mouth shut! I know it's in teal, but are you being sarcastic?

Saracen
05-29-2004, 11:43 PM
I remember Jimmy Johnson cutting a Dallas Cowboys player (Curvin Richards?) for fumbling after Dallas BEAT the Bears handily and were rolling into the playoffs - not only that, Jimmy took it public too. The team often credited that moment for their 3 Super Bowl wins in the next 4 years.

Sometimes, you can use harsh discipline/public reprimand like this to motivate your team when things are going well. KW/PR Director's comments show everyone in the organization that regardless of how well the team is doing, an unprofessional or lackadaisical attitude will NOT be tolerated. No matter how well the team is doing, they can always do better. These comments underscore it to all the players - it can only serve as a motivational tool. And Rauch is expendable anyway.

TornLabrum
05-29-2004, 11:48 PM
My opinions:

As far as Rauch was concerned, unless he had tickets back to Charlotte (or wherever they are playing tomorrow) for any time before 7:30 p.m., he was wrong in leaving. I'm not buying his excuse of leaving to avoid the media. More likely it's what he said to Wills elsewhere in the phone call. His family was in town and he wanted to be with them. Unfortunately, he didn't bother to tell anyone in management.

As far as Williams and the players are concerned, it is a clubhouse matter and should have been kept there. And Williams was dead wrong for not only issuing any statement to the media, but then compounding his mistake by having an underling read it for him. Now if he and Rauch kiss and make up it's Riefert who looks bad.

Brian26
05-29-2004, 11:50 PM
This could absolutely bring the team closer together - moreso than any other time in the past 4 years.

FarWestChicago
05-29-2004, 11:50 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Hey West, we've got jeremy as a member of the FOL. We'll take on all comers, even Randar!

:) We needed a new FO group. The poor FOC's have been alone for a while. :D:

Brian26
05-29-2004, 11:52 PM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
Now if he and Rauch kiss and make up it's Riefert who looks bad.

IF that happens, Kenny looks bad. Riefert is fine because he was just reading what Kenny asked him to. Kenny would look like a total schmuck, though, if he took back what he said.

SEALgep
05-29-2004, 11:54 PM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
Now if he and Rauch kiss and make up it's Riefert who looks bad. Is kissing and making up a realistic outcome to this? I suspect not. I happen to agree with KW, but even if he developed some sympathy for Rauch, I suspect he'd still deal him.

MRKARNO
05-29-2004, 11:56 PM
Let me weigh in on this:

Rauch was a total idiot for leaving early. I dont give a crap about whatever excuses he had. He stays until that game is over and until the rest of the players leave too. He doesnt have to say a damn word to the media if he stays the whole 9 innings and now all the players on the team have turned against him.

KW was probably out of bounds by telling people that Rauch was available, but I think the statement he made was also important. If you want to pull that crap as Rauch did, you will be made an example out of. I'm kinda mixed on this because it could cause some harm to this team with the distraction, but it's more likely that they respond well to this.

beckett21
05-29-2004, 11:57 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
I know it's in teal, but are you being sarcastic?

Last I checked, teal still meant sarcasm... :smile:

To a point. I love Kenny's enthusiasm and how much he takes these things to heart. I really have become a fan of his.

Personally I did not like the way he handled this one though. Just an unnecessary distraction in my book.

I understand and accept all the points against Rauch, but I still think that the *official statement* was reactionary and over the top. If the guy is such a clown, just get rid of him already. KW is the GM, he is held to a higher standard of conduct. The players can rip each other to pieces. KW should speak with his actions.

soxwon
05-30-2004, 12:00 AM
he had his chances, he just isnt ml material.
but he will leave and win big, youll see.
just hope he goes to the n.l.

Lip Man 1
05-30-2004, 12:02 AM
Folks:

If Don Cooper knew about Rauch leaving early why didn't he say something about it when the reporters were asking the players about it?

I would think he'd want to get the facts out there and end this.

and Jeremy says: "It's just a shame because if Rauch never goes under the knife (probably the club's fault for not handling him more carefully), he's probably an All-Star by now and no one here cares at all about how good of a teammate he is or even if he leaves a game early (which wouldn't have come out if he's an All-Star)."

Jeremy I'll give you props for defending the guy you've pushed for the last two years but it's over. He gone. (and sorry I don't think for a split second that under any circumstances Jon Rauch becomes an All Star. There was a reason he was being kept in the high minors even before he got hurt.)

Lip

Brian26
05-30-2004, 12:04 AM
Originally posted by beckett21
I understand and accept all the points against Rauch, but I still think that the *official statement* was reactionary and over the top. If the guy is such a clown, just get rid of him already.

As a fan of the ballclub, don't you really appreciate knowing the reason(s) why things happen?

Now, if KW happened to trade Rauch tomorrow, and let's pretend none of this ever happened today, I guarantee there'd be at least a dozen people here complaining because we never gave Rauch a chance and wondering why Kenny was getting rid of him. As a consumer and a fan, I appreciate knowing the details...and I love Kenny's passion.

SEALgep
05-30-2004, 12:05 AM
Originally posted by Brian26
As a fan of the ballclub, don't you really appreciate knowing the reason(s) why things happen?

Now, if KW happened to trade Rauch tomorrow, and let's pretend none of this ever happened today, I guarantee there'd be at least a dozen people here complaining because we never gave Rauch a chance and wondering why Kenny was getting rid of him. As a consumer and a fan, I appreciate knowing the details...and I love Kenny's passion. That's how I see it as well.

beckett21
05-30-2004, 12:13 AM
Originally posted by Brian26
As a fan of the ballclub, don't you really appreciate knowing the reason(s) why things happen?

Now, if KW happened to trade Rauch tomorrow, and let's pretend none of this ever happened today, I guarantee there'd be at least a dozen people here complaining because we never gave Rauch a chance and wondering why Kenny was getting rid of him. As a consumer and a fan, I appreciate knowing the details...and I love Kenny's passion.

Yeah that's a good point. I do appreciate knowing why things happen.

But let things sort themselves out first. Maybe in the end it wouldn't make a bit of difference in this case. But why burn the bridge when you don't have to? Now everybody and their grandmother hates Jon Rauch, and if he wasn't done in this town already, he all but is now.

This all could have come out soon enough. What's the rush in making such a bold statement is my point. If the matter is resolved, KW is the one with egg all over his face. And for what?

jeremyb1
05-30-2004, 12:46 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Folks:

If Don Cooper knew about Rauch leaving early why didn't he say something about it when the reporters were asking the players about it?

I would think he'd want to get the facts out there and end this.

and Jeremy says: "It's just a shame because if Rauch never goes under the knife (probably the club's fault for not handling him more carefully), he's probably an All-Star by now and no one here cares at all about how good of a teammate he is or even if he leaves a game early (which wouldn't have come out if he's an All-Star)."

Jeremy I'll give you props for defending the guy you've pushed for the last two years but it's over. He gone. (and sorry I don't think for a split second that under any circumstances Jon Rauch becomes an All Star. There was a reason he was being kept in the high minors even before he got hurt.)

First of all, I've been a fan of Rauch but I don't think that has anything to do with it. Outside of commiting a serious crime or something else to that effect I'm going to do my best to support Sox players no matter what. I feel I owe them and the organization that. It's too bad Kenny doesn't feel the same way or he'd have kept this behind closed doors. I don't believe in booing Sox players or directing harsh language towards them. I'm embarassed to have seen Sox fans partake in those actions today.

As far as Rauch's ability, he was never "kept in the high minors" before his injury. In '00 he pitched at high A in the first half and earned a promotion to AA in the second half. He dominated the entire time yet clearly he wasn't going to be called up with less than half a season of AA under his belt. In '01 he was diagnosed with a torn labrum (by far the most serious of pitching injuries) about five starts into the AAA season. The obvious implication is that he was injured prior to that. So I don't understand the time frame you're talking about prior to his injury when he was not called up.

Just to remind folks, in '00 Rauch posted a 2.86 ERA in Winston Salem with a 33/124 BB/K ratio in 110 IP and a 2.25 ERA in Birmingham with a 16/63 BB/K ratio in 56 IP. The guy was striking out more than a hitter per inning with impeccable control.

MRKARNO
05-30-2004, 12:54 AM
Originally posted by jeremyb1

Just to remind folks, in '00 Rauch posted a 2.86 ERA in Winston Salem with a 33/124 BB/K ratio in 110 IP and a 2.25 ERA in Birmingham with a 16/63 BB/K ratio in 56 IP. The guy was striking out more than a hitter per inning with impeccable control.

So he was great before the injury, but that's in the past. Post-injury he hasnt even been mediocre on the ML level.

RKMeibalane
05-30-2004, 01:23 AM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
Just to remind folks, in '00 Rauch posted a 2.86 ERA in Winston Salem with a 33/124 BB/K ratio in 110 IP and a 2.25 ERA in Birmingham with a 16/63 BB/K ratio in 56 IP. The guy was striking out more than a hitter per inning with impeccable control.

I don't care what Rauch was doing in the minors. He wasn't able to do it at the big league level, and to top it off, his attitude sucks. There may have been a time when Rauch could have become a great pitcher, but that time is now over. Whatever opportunities Jon had with the Sox have been flushed down the toilet because of the stunt he decided to pull Saturday afternoon.

Mohoney
05-30-2004, 01:54 AM
If that dummy turd Don Cooper told him to avoid the media and that he was demoted immediately following this game anyway, then maybe, just maybe, Rauch is telling the truth. If Rauch IS telling the truth, then Cooper's head should roll Monday. Hire Lamarr Hoyt.

Tell Don Cooper to stuff another cheeseburger into his fat useless face and KEEP HIS TRAP SHUT ABOUT CLUB BUSINESS (like demotions)! That's the GM's job.

Go ahead! Call ANOTHER fastball, you useless pud! Don't ever call an offspeed pitch again!

Let's not set the guy up to SUCCEED, or anything!

In my opinion, this whole 5th starter fiasco has been mishandled from the get-go, and I place the largest amount of blame on Don Cooper.

lowesox
05-30-2004, 02:01 AM
Classic stupidity from our hotheaded General Manager. And it's a shame too, because the guy has a pretty good brain when he actually uses it.

Yes, it was a bad start by Rauch. Yes, he should have stayed till the game was done. But none of this was that horrible. In fact, I think Kenny and co. set Rauch up to fail, just like they set Cotts up to fail. And Rauch took it harder from the fans because of the failures of Cotts, Diaz an Wright. In fact, I think Williams' little tyrade was him blacksheeping Rauch, and taking all the heat off himself for not being able to find a decent no. 5 starter.

Jon Rauch owes this organization an apology. Kenny Williams owes Jon Rauch a bigger one.

By the way, what a blatantly classless move by our fans to boo a rookie kid. As though he were trying to fail!? I'm embarassed to be associated with those fans tonight.

I just hope this isn't the Jose Paniagua thing playing itself out again. Although it would serve Mr. Williams right if it was.

Mohoney
05-30-2004, 02:03 AM
Originally posted by lowesox
Classic stupidity from our hotheaded General Manager. And it's a shame too, because the guy has a pretty good brain when he actually uses it.

Yes, it was a bad start by Rauch. Yes, he should have stayed till the game was done. But none of this was that horrible. In fact, I think Kenny and co. set Rauch up to fail, just like they set Cotts up to fail. And Rauch took it harder from the fans because of the failures of Cotts, Diaz an Wright. In fact, I think Williams' little tyrade was him blacksheeping Rauch, and taking all the heat off himself for not being able to find a decent no. 5 starter.

Jon Rauch owes this organization an apology. Kenny Williams owes Jon Rauch a bigger one.

By the way, what a blatantly classless move by our fans to boo a rookie kid. As though he were trying to fail!? I'm embarassed to be associated with those fans tonight.

I just hope this isn't the Jose Paniagua thing playing itself out again. Although it would serve Mr. Williams right if it was.

Great post. Spot on.

StockdaleForVeep
05-30-2004, 02:21 AM
Im curious is this incident will run front page of the sports section, the good ole "decension in clubhouse" motif

I also really wanna see what Oz says about this, if he will be company man and stick to what KW is sayin or if he will prove himself and react like anyone would that wasnt there, have an opinion but not judging because of 2 sides. Why does this seem like some kid broke a window in the house while father was out, and we're all wondering what father knows\will say when he gets back. This could be a prime test to see how Oz may react

Any pitcher has value, some team will eventually take him cuz some teams always need arms(SEE: KC) But what value did he even have before this, he's gone under multiple arm surgeries and in every mlb stint he's had he was NOT GOOD. Proof is that we shut them down with relievers afterwards and kept the sox in the game and no one can claim anahiem backed off\coasted because this was not a blowout. Rauch was atrocious thru every inning and only reason why he got out of the 1st 3 innings was due to great defensive plays.

Thankfully this is not an issue as to that it is creating sides in the clubhouse(so far) Either the opinion is none or contempt for Rauch leaving. I would be worried if one of our regulars did this and then causing a rift between players. So lets get the win tomorrow and continue our next 4 game win streak.

StockdaleForVeep
05-30-2004, 02:28 AM
Originally posted by HomerCoach
And the same team that signs JOSE (everyone is on steroids but me) CANSECO throws Rauch under the bus without a conversation/explination from him first? We know this management has little PR polish and lacks honest negotiating and communication skills. I for one am not ready yet to roast Rauch and praise KW (for taking internal affairs to the airways).

Can you tell me what Jose did on his stint with the white sox that would merrit him being ripped on? You cant argue steroids because its not like Jose did them by himself. Jose never just left a game cuz he felt like it and the difference is Jose is\was an established Major Leaguer

:canseco
"Roids? Nah I dont got roids, i got creams that take care of that"

Mohoney
05-30-2004, 02:37 AM
Originally posted by StockdaleForVeep
Im curious is this incident will run front page of the sports section, the good ole "decension in clubhouse" motif

I also really wanna see what Oz says about this, if he will be company man and stick to what KW is sayin or if he will prove himself and react like anyone would that wasnt there, have an opinion but not judging because of 2 sides. Why does this seem like some kid broke a window in the house while father was out, and we're all wondering what father knows\will say when he gets back. This could be a prime test to see how Oz may react

Any pitcher has value, some team will eventually take him cuz some teams always need arms(SEE: KC) But what value did he even have before this, he's gone under multiple arm surgeries and in every mlb stint he's had he was NOT GOOD. Proof is that we shut them down with relievers afterwards and kept the sox in the game and no one can claim anahiem backed off\coasted because this was not a blowout. Rauch was atrocious thru every inning and only reason why he got out of the 1st 3 innings was due to great defensive plays.

Thankfully this is not an issue as to that it is creating sides in the clubhouse(so far) Either the opinion is none or contempt for Rauch leaving. I would be worried if one of our regulars did this and then causing a rift between players. So lets get the win tomorrow and continue our next 4 game win streak.

Maybe Rauch will be the throw-in that seals the Beltran deal.

StockdaleForVeep
05-30-2004, 02:58 AM
Originally posted by lowesox


By the way, what a blatantly classless move by our fans to boo a rookie kid. As though he were trying to fail!? I'm embarassed to be associated with those fans tonight.



Granted he's a rookie but did you expect the fans to cheer him? "Hey great game Jon, only 5 runs"

And perhaps the entire club was being boo'd since baseball is a team game(despite the team playing excellent defense behind ONE man)

If fans dont say anythin, they're labled as apathetic and not caring, if they boo, they get responses like yours. Can we boo anyone at all really because unless yer Gary Sheffield and on Millwauke, nobody tanks on purpose.

hillbilly
05-30-2004, 03:04 AM
hey you son of a bitches.... why the **** did you cut me off.... yea you know who you are.

StillMissOzzie
05-30-2004, 03:10 AM
Conspicuously absent in all the discussion here is any comment from Cooper and Hahn, who Rauch says he spoke with before he booked. Maybe one or both of them should be in the hotseat instead.

SMO

pudge
05-30-2004, 03:30 AM
Originally posted by StillMissOzzie
Conspicuously absent in all the discussion here is any comment from Cooper and Hahn, who Rauch says he spoke with before he booked. Maybe one or both of them should be in the hotseat instead.

SMO

Great point! What if Rauch lied on top of it all???

I have not been a Rauch fan ever, so none of this is phasing me... as long as he's not back in a Sox uni, fine by me.

Personally, I enjoy seeing Kenny freak out once in a while. It's better than having no passion at all.

Jeremy
05-30-2004, 04:47 AM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane
Oh, brother...

Ozzie Guillen is going to **** bricks when he hears about this. I honestly don't know what to say. For Jon Rauch, an unproven pitcher who has accomplished nothing at the big league level, to leave a game early is absolutely indefensible. I don't care if you're not playing, you need to at least be at the stadium until the game has ended.

Rauch needs to go. This type of behavior should not be tolerated.


Before you jump to conclusions, do you guys just think that it could have been an honest mistake and miscommunication on Rauch's and management's part? I mean, it's funny how this happens when Guillen is gone. Perhaps Rauch just assumed it was alright to leave and spend time with his family since he knew he was gonna be sent down... perhaps they leave early in AAA Charlotte or something. I don't know, I guess it's still wrong to leave your team in mid-game even if you are allowed to do so.

Maximo
05-30-2004, 07:24 AM
I wish just once in these little spats in the Sox version of "Days of Our Lives", I wouldn't have to decide between the lesser of two wrongs. Reinsdorf/Einhorn vs Harry/Jimmy........Fisk vs Jerry........Frank vs 'the media'........Hawk vs Boers.......Rauch vs Kenny.......

Just once, I wish this entire organization would identify a "bad guy" and put all of its collective energies toward 'defeating the common menace'.

But then, I suppose I would have to look at the world through "Cub-colored" sunglasses.

steff
05-30-2004, 08:21 AM
Originally posted by illiniwhitesox
It's an interesting decision to make on Kenny's part. One one hand, you want to send a message to the team that this type of behavior will not be tolerated.

I don't blame Kenny's statement. I just wish he would have made it on a day's sleep. I earn a living by negotiating deals - I'm not saying I'm great at it, but rule #1 is never let your temper show and never make a decision when you are angry.



Which you do by telling the team that.. not the media. Kenny.... I know you're reading this and you are an IDIOT.

steff
05-30-2004, 08:24 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Folks:

If Don Cooper knew about Rauch leaving early why didn't he say something about it when the reporters were asking the players about it?




No one is denying Jon's claims that they did know...

Realist
05-30-2004, 08:42 AM
Originally posted by Brian26
I'm absolutely befuddled as to why you're going to such great lengths to protect and defend Rauch. CLTV had some magnificent interviews tonight with Koch, Rausch, and Konerko, in addition to playing Reifert's comments again. Jeff Dickerson from ESPN Radio was also on the line, as he was the guy who broke the story with Willsy. The BOTTOM LINE is that Rauch did something that infuriated the rest of the team. It's not just an issue with Kenny Williams or one or two other guys. Basically, the entire team was livid with Rauch.

It was a low-class, bush-league manuever. You stay until the end of the game, bottom line.

If ANYTHING good comes out of this, it's the fact that the team seems to have come a bit closer together by looking at themselves because of this incident.

There's no way you can defend Rauch's actions in this case, though. He's old enough to know better than to do something so ignorant.

If what you're saying is true, this whole incident may have a huge silver lining. The team seemed to be pretty cohesive and collectively fighting to win before this happened. If the zeitgeist of the team caught wind of a quitter amongst it ranks, it could quite logicly rise up to strike down the inavasion of bad mojo. Rauch may be the sacrificial lamb that pushes the team over top and locks in the chemstry needed to make the White Sox a great team.

I've been half joking in calling for a nice 20 minute bench clearing brawl bring this team together as a well oiled and common spirited winning machine. After this incident, they probably won't need it.

There's no doubt Rauch was dead wrong to leave the game early. I find it very difficult to believe that any coach or member of the organization would given permission for such behavior. If Kenny doesn't feel the need to apologize for his reaction in the next few days, I think we'll be safe to assume that the team may be closer than ever.

Go Sox!

PaleHoseGeorge
05-30-2004, 08:43 AM
Originally posted by steff
Which you do by telling the team that.. not the media. Kenny.... I know you're reading this and you are an IDIOT.

Well stated, Steff. The mere fact everybody in the media and in Sox Fandom knows about Kenny's tirade is proof enough that the *real* story here isn't that Rauch left early. The *real* story is that Kenny Williams is ill-equipped to be a major league GM. The *real* distraction is the media firestorm Kenny himself created, a distraction hardly necessary while the ballclub is in first-place and playing well.

Idiot is certainly the word I would use, too. However I prefer to use larger typeface. :smile:

IDIOT!

Saracen
05-30-2004, 08:46 AM
Originally posted by StillMissOzzie
Conspicuously absent in all the discussion here is any comment from Cooper and Hahn, who Rauch says he spoke with before he booked. Maybe one or both of them should be in the hotseat instead.

SMO

Why do you jump to the conclusion Rauch is saying he talked to them before he left? Look at his comment closely (from a couple hours after the game): 'I don't want to bad-mouth the team or make them look bad by any means. I talked to Hahn, and I talked to Cooper and I'm waiting to talk to Kenny.''

Then look at what Cooper said right after the game: "Before I make a judgment, I'd like to talk to him," said Cooper, with reliever Billy Koch loudly demurring nearby. "Maybe he's got a reason. I don't know."

I think it's pretty apparent Rauch didn't call till later, when he realized he was in deep doo-doo.

voodoochile
05-30-2004, 09:07 AM
Originally posted by Mohoney
If that dummy turd Don Cooper told him to avoid the media and that he was demoted immediately following this game anyway, then maybe, just maybe, Rauch is telling the truth. If Rauch IS telling the truth, then Cooper's head should roll Monday. Hire Lamarr Hoyt.

Tell Don Cooper to stuff another cheeseburger into his fat useless face and KEEP HIS TRAP SHUT ABOUT CLUB BUSINESS (like demotions)! That's the GM's job.

Go ahead! Call ANOTHER fastball, you useless pud! Don't ever call an offspeed pitch again!

Let's not set the guy up to SUCCEED, or anything!

In my opinion, this whole 5th starter fiasco has been mishandled from the get-go, and I place the largest amount of blame on Don Cooper.

Okay, but does he then get some credit for turning around the careers of Garland, Schoeneweiss and ELo? Does he get some credit for apparently rebuilding Koch's delivery to allow him more control, less arm stress and now seeing some of the velocity return? Does he deserve some credit for the success of the rest of the bullpen?

5th starter is all his fault? Maybe you would like to explain that to me. I just don't get it. Wright is having major arm surgery, Diaz really wasn't ready, Cotts's arm isn't built up to start this season and Rauch clearly was a "hey let's try this guy" thought process.

Cooper deserves massive credit for the teams pitching performance this year and quite simply - he isn't Nardi. Basically, I think your argument is not only weak, but useless. Cooper is a great pitching coach, period.

batmanZoSo
05-30-2004, 09:41 AM
Originally posted by Realist
If what you're saying is true, this whole incident may have a huge silver lining. The team seemed to be pretty cohesive and collectively fighting to win before this happened. If the zeitgeist of the team caught wind of a quitter amongst it ranks, it could quite logicly rise up to strike down the inavasion of bad mojo. Rauch may be the sacrificial lamb that pushes the team over top and locks in the chemstry needed to make the White Sox a great team.

I've been half joking in calling for a nice 20 minute bench clearing brawl bring this team together as a well oiled and common spirited winning machine. After this incident, they probably won't need it.

There's no doubt Rauch was dead wrong to leave the game early. I find it very difficult to believe that any coach or member of the organization would given permission for such behavior. If Kenny doesn't feel the need to apologize for his reaction in the next few days, I think we'll be safe to assume that the team may be closer than ever.

Go Sox!

When zeitgeist and mojo make an appearance, it's all over. Post of the Week :cool:

SEALgep
05-30-2004, 09:52 AM
Originally posted by steff
Which you do by telling the team that.. not the media. Kenny.... I know you're reading this and you are an IDIOT. Not everything is an in house matter. This was a public display of immaturity and disrespect to the team, and therefore was handled publicly. I have no problem with it at all. KW's played it well, and he was only one of the people who talked to the media about it. The rest of the team clearly had a problem with it, and they voiced their opinions on the matter as well. I'm glad they did it.

Jjav829
05-30-2004, 10:12 AM
Originally posted by Saracen
Why do you jump to the conclusion Rauch is saying he talked to them before he left? Look at his comment closely (from a couple hours after the game): 'I don't want to bad-mouth the team or make them look bad by any means. I talked to Hahn, and I talked to Cooper and I'm waiting to talk to Kenny.''

Then look at what Cooper said right after the game: "Before I make a judgment, I'd like to talk to him," said Cooper, with reliever Billy Koch loudly demurring nearby. "Maybe he's got a reason. I don't know."

I think it's pretty apparent Rauch didn't call till later, when he realized he was in deep doo-doo.

Bingo. I'm not sure where people are getting the idea that he talked to Hahn and Cooper BEFORE he left. From listening to his interview with Wills and reading everything, he's saying that he talked to Hahn and Cooper after he left to try to clarify why he left. He was waiting to talk to KW and might have done that by now.

rahulsekhar
05-30-2004, 10:23 AM
Originally posted by beckett21


It's very easy to sweep Rauch under the rug and make him disappear. Who are we going to blame next time? Who is going to donate the next pound of flesh???


Blame for what? The only thing I see Rauch getting blamed for are....HIS OWN ACTIONS!!! No one's blaming him for sucking on the field (at least no one from management). So the answer to your question is:whoever doies something stupid like this will get blamed for it.

Brian26
05-30-2004, 10:31 AM
Originally posted by Mohoney
If that dummy turd Don Cooper told him to avoid the media and that he was demoted immediately following this game anyway, then maybe, just maybe, Rauch is telling the truth. If Rauch IS telling the truth, then Cooper's head should roll Monday. Hire Lamarr Hoyt.

Tell Don Cooper to stuff another cheeseburger into his fat useless face and KEEP HIS TRAP SHUT ABOUT CLUB BUSINESS (like demotions)! That's the GM's job.

Go ahead! Call ANOTHER fastball, you useless pud! Don't ever call an offspeed pitch again!

Let's not set the guy up to SUCCEED, or anything!

In my opinion, this whole 5th starter fiasco has been mishandled from the get-go, and I place the largest amount of blame on Don Cooper.

You, sir, are a certified idiot. Cooper is the best pitching coach we've had in ages. The insults regarding weight are completely ignorant, and your request to hire Hoyt, who has next to no experience as a major league coach, is a joke.

duke of dorwood
05-30-2004, 10:38 AM
:rauch

Are you assassins?

:KW

I'm a grocery clerk sent to collect a bill

steff
05-30-2004, 10:41 AM
Originally posted by SEALgep
Not everything is an in house matter. This was a public display of immaturity and disrespect to the team, and therefore was handled publicly. I have no problem with it at all. KW's played it well, and he was only one of the people who talked to the media about it. The rest of the team clearly had a problem with it, and they voiced their opinions on the matter as well. I'm glad they did it.




IF it went down the way Jon says it did - which I'm sorry but I tend to believe him more at this point - then I have no problem with him leaving. His family had driven here from Kentucky, he was told he was going back ASAP, he wanted to spend some time with them. That does not sound too far fetched to me that he would be given the OK to leave. If anything.. it would have been a nice thing to do for the kid. Obviously something went wrong. But no way do I think that this kid just left.

Joel Perez
05-30-2004, 10:41 AM
Wow.

Strange things happening indeed. I'm gone from all things electronically for 24 hours and what happens?!?!?!?

Jonny Rauch is off his rocker! Whaddaya doin just upchuckin' and leavin' there Jonny?

You got to be kidding me. :angry: It's just like a 4 year old child who's crying that he's not getting his favorite toy, or that he's not getting any dessert for not finishing his vegetables. Just leaving the clubhouse before the end of the game for any reason other than you have a death in the family is lame, moronic, stupid, and just plain childish.

And to think that he was an Olympian representing this country. You would think he had the common sense AND decency to know better.

Hope you like those International bus shuttles Jon, because that's were you're going to go!!!


Now to OUR FEARLESS GM , the jerk of the week.
Great, spouting off his mouth again. Message to Mr. Know-It-All, THOSE COMMENTS SHOULD BE RESERVED NOT FOR THE PRESS! And if you took your role seriously, you wouldn't have given one of your lapdogs the responsibility to convey that message to the press! Be a man! If you're going to say it, SAY IT IN PERSON, not having your lapdog cronies doing it for you.

Character assassination in the Chicago Media. Yeah, THAT's going to be to your advantage!!!

PHG, here's another adjective for Little Kenny.

MORON! MORON! MORON!!!

WSox8404
05-30-2004, 10:42 AM
Originally posted by Mohoney
If that dummy turd Don Cooper told him to avoid the media and that he was demoted immediately following this game anyway, then maybe, just maybe, Rauch is telling the truth. If Rauch IS telling the truth, then Cooper's head should roll Monday. Hire Lamarr Hoyt.

Tell Don Cooper to stuff another cheeseburger into his fat useless face and KEEP HIS TRAP SHUT ABOUT CLUB BUSINESS (like demotions)! That's the GM's job.

Go ahead! Call ANOTHER fastball, you useless pud! Don't ever call an offspeed pitch again!

Let's not set the guy up to SUCCEED, or anything!

In my opinion, this whole 5th starter fiasco has been mishandled from the get-go, and I place the largest amount of blame on Don Cooper.

Don Cooper is to blame? Are you nuts? Even with not having a fifth starter, our team ERA is third best in the AL. Four of our starters have ERA's under 4.00 and our bullpen for the most part has also been lights out. So to say we should fire Don Cooper is crazy. If we had a good fifth starter, one could make the argument that we would have the best ERA in the AL. Don Cooper cannot make pitchers who aren't ready or just plain suck look like wizards out there. The man needs someone who knows how to pitch. Moron.

voodoochile
05-30-2004, 10:57 AM
Originally posted by SEALgep
Not everything is an in house matter. This was a public display of immaturity and disrespect to the team, and therefore was handled publicly. I have no problem with it at all. KW's played it well, and he was only one of the people who talked to the media about it. The rest of the team clearly had a problem with it, and they voiced their opinions on the matter as well. I'm glad they did it.

How was this public before KW talked about it to the reporters in loud, disparaging terms?

voodoochile
05-30-2004, 10:59 AM
Originally posted by Brian26
You, sir, are a certified idiot. Cooper is the best pitching coach we've had in ages. The insults regarding weight are completely ignorant, and your request to hire Hoyt, who has next to no experience as a major league coach, is a joke.

The post was idiotic, the poster is not an idiot. It's a small distinction in terms of board civility.

FarWestChicago
05-30-2004, 11:17 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
The post was idiotic, the poster is not an idiot. It's a small distinction in terms of board civility. I assumed from the time of night when it appeared the poster had been drinking heavily for quite a while. :smile:

TornLabrum
05-30-2004, 11:19 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Folks:

If Don Cooper knew about Rauch leaving early why didn't he say something about it when the reporters were asking the players about it?

I would think he'd want to get the facts out there and end this.

and Jeremy says: "It's just a shame because if Rauch never goes under the knife (probably the club's fault for not handling him more carefully), he's probably an All-Star by now and no one here cares at all about how good of a teammate he is or even if he leaves a game early (which wouldn't have come out if he's an All-Star)."

Jeremy I'll give you props for defending the guy you've pushed for the last two years but it's over. He gone. (and sorry I don't think for a split second that under any circumstances Jon Rauch becomes an All Star. There was a reason he was being kept in the high minors even before he got hurt.)

Lip

When I listened to Rauch's call to Wills, I got the impression he talked to Cooper AFTER all hell had broken loose.

FarWestChicago
05-30-2004, 11:19 AM
Originally posted by hillbilly
hey you son of a bitches.... why the **** did you cut me off.... yea you know who you are. You posted a complete piece of crap that would only have had a couple conjunctions left from the original post after I cleaned it up. I don't have time for that. You don't want posts deleted, don't post garbage. Or go ahead and post one more like the one I whacked. It will be your last.

TornLabrum
05-30-2004, 11:24 AM
Originally posted by Saracen
Why do you jump to the conclusion Rauch is saying he talked to them before he left? Look at his comment closely (from a couple hours after the game): 'I don't want to bad-mouth the team or make them look bad by any means. I talked to Hahn, and I talked to Cooper and I'm waiting to talk to Kenny.''

Then look at what Cooper said right after the game: "Before I make a judgment, I'd like to talk to him," said Cooper, with reliever Billy Koch loudly demurring nearby. "Maybe he's got a reason. I don't know."

I think it's pretty apparent Rauch didn't call till later, when he realized he was in deep doo-doo.

Yup. That's what I heard, too.

TornLabrum
05-30-2004, 11:28 AM
Originally posted by steff
IF it went down the way Jon says it did - which I'm sorry but I tend to believe him more at this point - then I have no problem with him leaving. His family had driven here from Kentucky, he was told he was going back ASAP, he wanted to spend some time with them. That does not sound too far fetched to me that he would be given the OK to leave. If anything.. it would have been a nice thing to do for the kid. Obviously something went wrong. But no way do I think that this kid just left.

The problem, Steff, is that he never did say who gave him permission to leave. That's because no one gave him explicit permission to leave. In addition, it was obvious from his call to Wills that he had talked to Cooper and Hahn AFTER all hell had started breaking loose.

I don't think his choice of the word "miscommunication" was correct. I think it was more that he "misunderstood" what he had permission to do...assuming he's being straight up about everything.

Randar68
05-30-2004, 11:57 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Folks:

A few comments....

Let's get real here OK? Jon Rauch, he of two surgeries and considered 'soft' by his own teammates wasn't going to get much anyway in any kind of deal!

Kenny Williams didn't reduce his trade value because he had none (or little) to begin with.

What Williams did was tell everyone connected with the organization that unprofessional behavior will not be tolerated. I guarantee you by tomorrow every Sox minor league player in all classifications will have heard about this.

I won't single out anybody by name because they know who they are but backing Rauch in the first place was a longshot at best. Making claims last spring that in the long run it would be better for the organization to give him another chance as opposed to signing someone like Kenny Rogers in retrospect seems even more foolish now.

Lip

Wow, Lip. Each post of yours is more predictable than the last.

iwannago
05-30-2004, 12:05 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
Kenny Williams proves once again he is in over his head by his reaction. What if Jon asked Cooper and Haun and believe it he was following club policy by avoiding the media. If you get permission from your supervisor you can leave any job. Did he quit on his team, that for the team to decide, and Paul Konerko hasn't been the barometer of that.

My point exactly. Also if KW wants to send his messages why does he use the press? Why don't he face the individuals like a man and tell them? What if Rauch aired out his dirty laundry to the press? :angry:

PaleHoseGeorge
05-30-2004, 12:15 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
Wow, Lip. Each post of yours is more predictable than the last.

After yesterday's fiasco, I'm surprised anyone is prepared to argue that the Sox wouldn't be dropping games while looking under rocks for a fifth starter if we had simply picked up Kenny Rogers for cheap last year.

rahulsekhar
05-30-2004, 12:17 PM
FWIW, as far as I can tell, there are a couple of things going on here:

1) The whole "scapegoat" and "throwing himunder a bus" comments are ludicrous. No one from Sox mgt has made ANY comments about his performance or the game, everything's been focused on his ridiculous, immature actions. He's not being blamed for anything except his own stupidity. The fact that this doesn't appear to be a solitary incident of his being a "less than ideal" teammate only makes it worse.

2) He doesn't appear to have told anyone (not Coop or Hahn) BEFORE leaving, his comments seem like he's talked to them since. So trying to find this as an organizational witchhunt is like looking for the 2d & 3d gunmen on Roger Bossard's well-manicured grassy knoll

3) As for trade value plummeting - I don't know that it was that high to begin with since he hasn't done much since his injury. If more than one team is interested in him we'll get close to fair value - of course incorporating his performance, that's not that high.

4) I dont' see any way that this has a negative impact ont eh clubhouse. This guy let his teammates down. The fact that the GM addressed that imemdiately only reinforces the "all for one" atmosphere. If you stick with your guys, they'll close ranks around you. If you effectively throw them under the bus (i.e. leaving them to answer for your crap performance), then you're out.

Like it or not - everyone's measured by how they contribute to the team. If you're not contributing on the field, then you'd darn well better be contributing in the clubhouse, by leading with your work ethic, etc. If you dont' contribute AND you're negative int eh clubhouse - see ya.

IMO - this "incident" is a product of continued attitude issues with Rauch. If (as has been noted on the board). he's had team issues in the past, then this was the last straw and combinin that with Kenny's candor leads to a release that could have been less blatant, but is't the end of the world.

Saracen
05-30-2004, 12:23 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
After yesterday's fiasco, I'm surprised anyone is prepared to argue that the Sox wouldn't be dropping games while looking under rocks for a fifth starter if we had simply picked up Kenny Rogers for cheap last year.
Amen to that.

PaleHoseGeorge
05-30-2004, 12:25 PM
Originally posted by rahulsekhar
....IMO - this "incident" is a product of continued attitude issues with Rauch. If (as has been noted on the board). he's had team issues in the past, then this was the last straw and combinin that with Kenny's candor leads to a release that could have been less blatant, but is't the end of the world.

Okay, I'm dumb. Precisely what "attitude issues" with Jon Rauch are you referring to?

Randar68
05-30-2004, 12:25 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
After yesterday's fiasco, I'm surprised anyone is prepared to argue that the Sox wouldn't be dropping games while looking under rocks for a fifth starter if we had simply picked up Kenny Rogers for cheap last year.

if we signed Kenny, would kW have traded for schoe? Would he have traded someone else? Who knows, but this completely ignorant substitution property does not apply as simply as Lip continues to insist.

Lip wanted Kenny at the start of last year, no? Would ELo have even made the team?

Seriously, there are too many components to this to even suggest simple substitution as being a valid concept.

Then again, validity, reality and feasibility have never been things to stand in the way of a good Lipman self-back-patting or bitch-session, has it?

Randar68
05-30-2004, 12:27 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Okay, I'm dumb. Precisely what "attitude issues" with Jon Rauch are you referring to?

Rex, care to reiterate those assertions?

Brian26
05-30-2004, 12:28 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
Then again, validity, reality and feasibility have never been things to stand in the way of a good Lipman self-back-patting or bitch-session, has it?

I'm glad I'm not the only one who got smacked in the face by Lip's ego on this one.

Ruth Uribe
05-30-2004, 12:30 PM
:tomatoaward :tomatoaward

Randar68
05-30-2004, 12:30 PM
Originally posted by Brian26
I'm glad I'm not the only one who got smacked in the face by Lip's ego on this one.

As I was once lectured by Lip, You're just jealous of him being in the media (in the bustling metropolis of Chubbuck)

Brian26
05-30-2004, 12:33 PM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
When I listened to Rauch's call to Wills, I got the impression he talked to Cooper AFTER all hell had broken loose.

Right- Nothing but spin control or trying to minimize the damage. Obviously someone tipped Rauch off to what was going on over the radio airwaves (probably just as Rauch, freshly showered and dressed, was starting to dig into his entree at Chili's with his family). It's almost embarassing that Rauch had to call in to Willsy at the end of the postgame show as opposed to going through the team to make a statement.

I wonder what Rauch ordered? Maybe they caught the 8th and 9th innings in the Chili's bar while they were waiting for their appetizer. I bet they went with the boneless buffalo wings. Would they get a free round of drinks if the Sox came back and won it in the 9th?

rahulsekhar
05-30-2004, 12:35 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Okay, I'm dumb. Precisely what "attitude issues" with Jon Rauch are you referring to?

Just referring to comments earlier in this thread that Jon had had some team issues in the minors and that Sox management wasn't thrilled with him coming into this incident.

Clarkdog
05-30-2004, 12:37 PM
Originally posted by lowesox
Classic stupidity from our hotheaded General Manager. And it's a shame too, because the guy has a pretty good brain when he actually uses it.

Yes, it was a bad start by Rauch. Yes, he should have stayed till the game was done. But none of this was that horrible. In fact, I think Kenny and co. set Rauch up to fail, just like they set Cotts up to fail. And Rauch took it harder from the fans because of the failures of Cotts, Diaz an Wright. In fact, I think Williams' little tyrade was him blacksheeping Rauch, and taking all the heat off himself for not being able to find a decent no. 5 starter.

Jon Rauch owes this organization an apology. Kenny Williams owes Jon Rauch a bigger one.

I just hope this isn't the Jose Paniagua thing playing itself out again. Although it would serve Mr. Williams right if it was.

This is one of the best posts of the bunch on this topic. None of this happens if KW fills the #5 spot with credible pitcher before or during Spring Training. Remember, many here thought the Sox were going into the season with only three decent starters. Schoenweis was no sure thing on opening day. This team broke camp with a perceived weakness at #4 and a glaring hole at #5. #4 has worked out, #5 is now 0 -7. There was no plan here, and the Sox are now forced to play musical pitchers until such a time that they can overpay in trade for the 5th starter.

Rauch leaving was wrong, but if KW wants to look for the bigger mistake he need only to look in the mirror.

Brian26
05-30-2004, 12:38 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
As I was once lectured by Lip, You're just jealous of him being in the media (in the bustling metropolis of Chubbuck)

I give Lip credit, as I do remember his posts about acquiring Kenny Rogers. The problem is, that was 17 months ago. Just as you pointed out (and any fan of sci-fi or time travel knows without saying), any events that happened after January of 2003 may not have happened the same way if we DID sign Rogers at that time. And since then, which Lip conveniently fails to mention, it's been stated by Rogers himself that he didn't want to even pitch in Chicago. Let's drop the Kenny Rogers crap for heaven's sake. You'd think Kenny's willingness to go out and get Everett and Robbie Alomar last summer was enough of a statement to the doubters about how much he wants to win. I guarantee those are two trades Lip couldn't have pulled off himself.

Randar68
05-30-2004, 12:38 PM
Originally posted by rahulsekhar
Just referring to comments earlier in this thread that Jon had had some team issues in the minors and that Sox management wasn't thrilled with him coming into this incident.

These assertions, aside from the understandable Kenny vs Jon argument following his injuries and mishandling, are based off a conversation Rex has had with a former teammate. Then again, not many players are liked universally by every teammate, so that's why the grain of salt should be added.

This is why what happens in the clubhouse stays there, because nobody on the outside knows all the details or all the personal histories that may be in play when you hear stories like this.

Brian26
05-30-2004, 12:43 PM
Originally posted by Clarkdog
This is the best posts of the bunch on this topic. No one this happens if KW fills the #5 spot with credilbly before or during Sping Training. Remember, many here though the Sox were going tinot the season with on three credible starters. Schoenweis was no sure thing on opening day. This team broke camp with a perceived weakness at #4 and a glaring hole at #5. #4 has woeked out, #5 is now 0 -7. There was not plan here, and the Sox a re forced to play musical pitchers until such a time that they can overpay in trade for the 5th starter.

Rauch leaving was wrong, but if KW wants to look for the bigger mistake he need only to look in the mirror.

You're missing the entire point. The problem that occurred has nothing to do with how "credibile" of a starter Rauch or anyone else is. This problem has nothing to do with performance on the field. The PROBLEM is that a player left the clubhouse and quit on his team. It could have been the #5 starter, the #1 starter, the 3rd string back-up catcher, or the AL MVP. The fact remains, the guy quit on his team. The guy was pulled out of the game, and instead of sitting on the bench rooting for his teammates or sitting in the clubhouse and rooting for them as he watched tv, he showered, dressed, packed, and left the damn building. What is so hard to understand about the immaturity of this incident? Does anyone else remember what happened about a week ago when Cotts had his unsuccessful start? After Ozzie pulled him, Cotts sat on the bench next to Buehrle, Scho, Coop and Ozzie. Cotts didn't go into the clubhouse. He didn't leave the stadium to go out to eat. He stayed and watched.

Kenny is the LAST guy at fault here. Let's think about this, guys.

PaleHoseGeorge
05-30-2004, 12:44 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
Rex, care to reiterate those assertions?

Randar, you're not putting stock in this assertion by Rex are you?

Rauch has a history of doing things that don't fit into the mold of a team. It's not like he has been a model citizen and this is his first offense.

There is no foundation to this assertion.

Lip Man 1
05-30-2004, 12:46 PM
Brian:

Considering some of the comments that were directed my way at the time concerning my thoughts on Rogers, you are one hundred per cent right that I'll going to remind some of the 'geniusus' about it. When I can be called in so many words an idiot, I have the right to let those folks know they aren't as smart as they think when it turns out they were wrong. Unlike some of them, when I have made a mistake or stepped out of line I apologized. Even West a guy who is the direct opposite of me had the class to do that one time when he made a mistake.

If they want to say I'm wrong that's fine but when they start to get personal with their comments when they claim I'm wrong, that's a horse of a different color.

Lowesox says: "what a blatantly classless move by our fans to boo a rookie kid."

There are different ways to look at this. Technically Rauch was a rookie but he's been drifting around the Sox for years now. He happened to be the fourth (?) stiff trotted out by the Sox this year to try to fill this gaping chasm. Perhaps some of the booing wasn't meant to be directed his way but towards the organization as a whole, for more short sightedness. He just happened to be the conduit for them. Complicating matters is that this has been going on consistently for the past two years (although the Sox haven't had a solid 1-5 since 1994.)

Plus (and I realize this is a stretch) when you haven't won squat in 44 years frustrations tend to get magnified.

Lip

Randar68
05-30-2004, 12:49 PM
Originally posted by Brian26
You're missing the entire point. The problem that occurred has nothing to do with how "credibile" of a starter Rauch or anyone else is. This problem has nothing to do with performance on the field. The PROBLEM is that a player left the clubhouse and quit on his team. It could have been the #5 starter, the #1 starter, the 3rd string back-up catcher, or the AL MVP. The fact remains, the guy quit on his team. The guy was pulled out of the game, and instead of sitting on the bench rooting for his teammates or sitting in the clubhouse and rooting for them as he watched tv, he showered, dressed, packed, and left the damn building. What is so hard to understand about the immaturity of this incident? Does anyone else remember what happened about a week ago when Cotts had his unsuccessful start? After Ozzie pulled him, Cotts sat on the bench next to Buehrle, Scho, Coop and Ozzie. Cotts didn't go into the clubhouse. He didn't leave the stadium to go out to eat. He stayed and watched.

Kenny is the LAST guy at fault here. Let's think about this, guys.

As has been stated, regardless of outcome, rauch was told he'd be going straight back to AAA. Rauch deserves blame if absolutely no communication took place. However, everyone here is jumping to a conclusion not based on all of the facts or info.

i think Kenny has done a good job, but going to the media so often is poor professionalism.

Randar68
05-30-2004, 12:52 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Randar, you're not putting stock in this assertion by Rex are you?



There is no foundation to this assertion.

Rex does have the opportunities to talk to former players et al. I believe that a former teammate may have had that opinion of Jon. However, a huge grain of salt needs to be taken when conosidering anything a player says abouot any former teammate. Nobody knows the personal histories or agendas people have. This is a prime example of why what happens in the clubhouse stays in the clubhouse.

Randar68
05-30-2004, 12:58 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Brian:

Considering some of the comments that were directed my way at the time concerning my thoughts on Rogers, you are one hundred per cent right that I'll going to remind some of the 'geniusus' about it. When I can be called in so many words an idiot, I have the right to let those folks know they aren't as smart as they think when it turns out they were wrong. Unlike some of them, when I have made a mistake or stepped out of line I apologized. Even West a guy who is the direct opposite of me had the class to do that one time when he made a mistake.

If they want to say I'm wrong that's fine but when they start to get personal with their comments when they claim I'm wrong, that's a horse of a different color.

Lowesox says: "what a blatantly classless move by our fans to boo a rookie kid."

There are different ways to look at this. Technically Rauch was a rookie but he's been drifting around the Sox for years now. He happened to be the fourth (?) stiff trotted out by the Sox this year to try to fill this gaping chasm. Perhaps some of the booing wasn't meant to be directed his way but toward the organization as a whole, for more short sightedness. He just happened to be the conduit for them. Complicating matters is that this has been going on consistently for the past two years (although the Sox haven't had a solid 1-5 since 1994.)

Plus (and I realize this is a stretch) when you haven't won squat in 44 years frustrations tend to get magnified.

Lip

Self-serving
egotistical
hypocrite

Lip, glass houses... glass houses...

Like I have said before... stick to doing interviews and being the conduit for others' opinions. Yours are generally a grasp at the obvious and generally Moronotti-like. Throw some doody at the wall and on the rare occasion something sticks, harp about it and glorify yourself.

*****. Admit you're wrong? You keep praying for Willie, Uribe, and anyone else to fail simply so you can cry about how the Sox keep running kids out there to fail and that they should some some 35 year old bum that Ken Rosenthal has suggested the Sox get.

pudge
05-30-2004, 01:03 PM
Originally posted by steff
IF it went down the way Jon says it did - which I'm sorry but I tend to believe him more at this point

Well there's a surprise, the person who made headlines by going nuts on kenny at soxfest takes Rauch's side of the story. ;)

Brian26
05-30-2004, 01:06 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
As has been stated, regardless of outcome, rauch was told he'd be going straight back to AAA. Rauch deserves blame if absolutely no communication took

Who told Rauch he was going straight back to AAA? Why would the Sox tell him that BEFORE the game anyway? As I understand it, Kenny was looking for Rauch after the game to let him know he was going back. Are you telling me the Sox wouldn't have kept Rauch up here if he went out and threw a no-hitter?

Rauch had a chance to win a spot with this club.

steff
05-30-2004, 01:07 PM
Originally posted by pudge
Well there's a surprise, the person who made headlines by going nuts on kenny at soxfest takes Rauch's side of the story. ;)



I went "nuts" on him...? Alrighty...

pudge
05-30-2004, 01:08 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
if we signed Kenny, would kW have traded for schoe? Would he have traded someone else? Who knows, but this completely ignorant substitution property does not apply as simply as Lip continues to insist.

Lip wanted Kenny at the start of last year, no? Would ELo have even made the team?


I have to chime in because I threw some punches over Rogers last spring (and I took some heavy ones from Randar too), and I have to say that Rogers has NOTHING to do with 2004. If I were to say "I told you so" it would basically be regarding 2003 only. This is a totally new season. I personally don't mind giving Diaz and Rauch a brief shot, which is exactly what they did. Now it is time to find someone who can pitch in the #5, and I think KW knows that.

steff
05-30-2004, 01:08 PM
Originally posted by Brian26
Who told Rauch he was going straight back to AAA? Why would the Sox tell him that BEFORE the game anyway? As I understand it, Kenny was looking for Rauch after the game to let him know he was going back. Are you telling me the Sox wouldn't have kept Rauch up here if he went out and threw a no-hitter?

Rauch had a chance to win a spot with this club.



His family knew before the game he was going back so someone must have told them...

RKMeibalane
05-30-2004, 01:09 PM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
When I listened to Rauch's call to Wills, I got the impression he talked to Cooper AFTER all hell had broken loose.

That's my impression, as well. If he had talked with Cooper before leaving, this entire situation would have been avoided. All Cooper would have had to do was tell Ken Williams that he gave Rauch permission to leave early, and that would have resolved the matter. Rauch screwed up royally, and the fact that he is probably lying about what happened only proves that he doesn't belong in the Sox organization. I can understand him wanting to spend time with his family, but he should have realized that his job responsibilities had to come first in this case. Every other player in Sox organization has families, too, but I don't see any of them walking out on their teammates during the middle of a game.

Brian26
05-30-2004, 01:10 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Technically Rauch was a rookie but he's been drifting around the Sox for years now. He happened to be the fourth (?) stiff trotted out by the Sox this year to try to fill this gaping chasm.

Well, I'll admit Wright can be considered a stiff at this point. Cotts isn't a stiff. Felix Diaz has pretty good stuff and might pitch up here again someday, so I won't label him as a stiff. Rauch turned out to be a stiff based on his actions AFTER the game.


Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Complicating matters is that this has been going on consistently for the past two years (although the Sox haven't had a solid 1-5 since 1994.)


Lip, nobody has a solid 1-5 anymore. Not the Sox. Not the Cubs. Not the Yankees. It's just something that really doesn't exist anymore.

RKMeibalane
05-30-2004, 01:10 PM
Originally posted by steff
I went "nuts" on him...? Alrighty...

Well, you did almost make him cry. :D:

Brian26
05-30-2004, 01:10 PM
Originally posted by steff
I went "nuts" on him...? Alrighty...

LOL. :smile:

pudge
05-30-2004, 01:11 PM
Originally posted by steff
I went "nuts" on him...? Alrighty...

According to the papers, you two started shouting, then you threw a chair at him and bodyguards had to restrain you while Williams become so enraged he flipped a table into the audience, seriously injurying several fans. It was like something out of Springer!

Brian26
05-30-2004, 01:13 PM
Originally posted by steff
His family knew before the game he was going back so someone must have told them...

Hmm. Well, if that's true (and I don't have a conclusive proof other than your word, Steff), that's a terrible confidence-booster for a kid going out trying to win a ballgame. I'd still like to think a guy can come up here thinking he's got a shot to stay on the club if he pitches lights-out. Are you 100% sure that was said to Rauch, or was it just conjecture by his family and him? Mentally, I think it's easier to fail knowing that you are being sent down no matter what. I can't believe the Sox organization would say that though.

Randar68
05-30-2004, 01:14 PM
Originally posted by Brian26
Who told Rauch he was going straight back to AAA? Why would the Sox tell him that BEFORE the game anyway? As I understand it, Kenny was looking for Rauch after the game to let him know he was going back. Are you telling me the Sox wouldn't have kept Rauch up here if he went out and threw a no-hitter?

Rauch had a chance to win a spot with this club.

The Sox don't need a 5th starter for a week or 2, so they would send anyone back, to get work at the very least...

beckett21
05-30-2004, 01:16 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
As has been stated, regardless of outcome, rauch was told he'd be going straight back to AAA. Rauch deserves blame if absolutely no communication took place. However, everyone here is jumping to a conclusion not based on all of the facts or info.

i think Kenny has done a good job, but going to the media so often is poor professionalism.

*WHEW* I'm glad you guys got this all figured out without me!

At the risk of jumping back into the fray....

Randar I like this post. There are very few people here who are privy to what was actually discussed with Jon Rauch. There is a lot of heresy being thrown around here. Perhaps I am guilty of that as well.

I tend to agree with the opinions expressed by Steff and PHG. This is not to condone Rauch leaving early, however I don't know all the facts. If Rauch was told to avoid the media, he did a good job of it until he started getting called out over the airwaves by his GM. As was mentioned, this wasn't even an issue until KW made his statement thru Reifert. Who's to say it wasn't implied to him that he could leave early to avoid the media, and his interpretation of that was to leave early? Doesn't change the fact that he ran out on his teammates, but did anyone ever consider that maybe KW's comments were designed to save face with the rest of the team? Yes it's a conspiracy theory, fine.

I just think it's unfair to put 100% stock in what KW has to say and totally discredit and discount Rauch as if he is a deserter. And as for him having to call Willsy, what was he supposed to do? Put in a statement thru the Sox brass? After they just said that he would never pitch in Chicago again???

I'm trying to stick up for the little guy here. KW doesn't need any help. He can spout his mouth off whenever he pleases. He should just consider the ramifications of his comments before he shoots from the hip. I think the truth lies somewhere in between, however I do not fault Rauch for defending himself after the nasty comments made against him.

Regardless of the truth, KW's comments were a personal attack and uncalled for from a so-called *professional* .

beckett21
05-30-2004, 01:22 PM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane
Rauch screwed up royally, and the fact that he is probably lying about what happened only proves that he doesn't belong in the Sox organization.

:KW

"There's no place in this organization for a liar, ESPECIALLY one who can't get major league hitters out."

:reinsy

"What he said."


So....Rauch is probably lying, and this is a fact.

Nice.

Saracen
05-30-2004, 01:25 PM
Originally posted by Brian26
Hmm. Well, if that's true (and I don't have a conclusive proof other than your word, Steff), that's a terrible confidence-booster for a kid going out trying to win a ballgame. I'd still like to think a guy can come up here thinking he's got a shot to stay on the club if he pitches lights-out. Are you 100% sure that was said to Rauch, or was it just conjecture by his family and him? Mentally, I think it's easier to fail knowing that you are being sent down no matter what. I can't believe the Sox organization would say that though.
Who cares if they told him he was going back? Of course he was going back - we don't need a 5th starter for 14 days - he would go back down to get some work. It's not unusual whatsoever that the big club tells a pitcher he's coming up for one game & will be sent back down - but if he does well he'll certainly be in line to start when they need him again.

What does this have to do with him blowing off the team without telling anyone? I'll tell you what, if I got a promotion at work, I wouldn't bug out on management my first day on the job. I'd be the last fricking person to leave the office that day.

Dadawg_77
05-30-2004, 01:38 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge

Hey West, we've got jeremy as a member of the FOL. We'll take on all comers, even Randar!

:)

How about NFOK, No Friends of Kenny, can we join?

voodoochile
05-30-2004, 01:41 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
How about NFOK, No Friends of Kenny, can we join?

If the Sox make the playoffs this year, how will it affect your feelings about KW's job? Just curious...

Dadawg_77
05-30-2004, 01:42 PM
Originally posted by MRKARNO
So he was great before the injury, but that's in the past. Post-injury he hasnt even been mediocre on the ML level.

No major league pitcher has recovered from his injury.

Dadawg_77
05-30-2004, 01:43 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
If the Sox make the playoffs this year, how will it affect your feelings about KW's job? Just curious...

Still get rid of him, the Sox making the playoffs will have to do more with the regression of rest of the divison then the Sox.

voodoochile
05-30-2004, 01:45 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
Still get rid of him, the Sox making the playoffs will have to do more with the regression of rest of the divison then the Sox.

Okay, so not making the playoffs these past few years isn't quite such a strong indictment of him like you have been making it out to be.

At least that seems logical to me. Rest of division was stronger and making the playoffs isn't a true validation of his work as GM.

Dadawg_77
05-30-2004, 01:47 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Okay, so not making the playoffs these past few years isn't quite such a strong indictment of him like you have been making it out to be.

At least that seems logical to me. Rest of division was stronger and making the playoffs isn't a true validation of his work as GM.

No not making it is stronger indictment since the divison has always been weak.

Nard
05-30-2004, 01:55 PM
Even if he did ask Coop and Hahn, which he probably didn't, but even if he did, what does it matter? He still bailed out. How do you even ask that question? Even if he goes up to Coop and Hahn, what are his excuses for leaving early? He wants to beat the rush hour traffic to Charlotte?

Doesn't matter who he asked or even if he asked at all. He left the damn game.

voodoochile
05-30-2004, 01:56 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
No not making it is stronger indictment since the divison has always been weak.

Seems that you are wanting it both ways. Making it means nothing, but not making it means a lot. He's damned if he does and damned if he doesn't.

FarWestChicago
05-30-2004, 02:09 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
How about NFOK, No Friends of Kenny, can we join? No, you are FOBB, Friend of Billy Beane. The FOL's are new as of last night. :smile:

FarWestChicago
05-30-2004, 02:12 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
If the Sox make the playoffs this year, how will it affect your feelings about KW's job? Just curious... If the Sox won 8 World Series in a row the FOBB's would still want Kenny's head. He's not a disciple of their leader...

Jjav829
05-30-2004, 02:18 PM
Originally posted by FarWestChicago
If the Sox won 8 World Series in a row the FOBB's would still want Kenny's head. He's not a disciple of their leader...

No kidding. No matter what Kenny does there are some people who will always rip him. If we win the World Series this year, they'll still complain that we didn't make the playoffs the past few years.

TornLabrum
05-30-2004, 03:26 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
As has been stated, regardless of outcome, rauch was told he'd be going straight back to AAA. Rauch deserves blame if absolutely no communication took place. However, everyone here is jumping to a conclusion not based on all of the facts or info.

i think Kenny has done a good job, but going to the media so often is poor professionalism.

I'm not sure that Rauch knew with certainty that he was going back to AAA. I got the impression from his conversation with Wills that he was "pretty sure" he was going to be sent back. I didn't get the impression that he had received official word from anybody.

TornLabrum
05-30-2004, 03:29 PM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane
Well, you did almost make him cry. :D:

I heard that after that little incident he went home and cried all night. :D:

SEALgep
05-30-2004, 03:29 PM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
I'm not sure that Rauch knew with certainty that he was going back to AAA. I got the impression from his conversation with Wills that he was "pretty sure" he was going to be sent back. I didn't get the impression that he had received official word from anybody. And that makes it that much worse.

idseer
05-30-2004, 04:48 PM
Originally posted by Jjav829
No kidding. No matter what Kenny does there are some people who will always rip him. If we win the World Series this year, they'll still complain that we didn't make the playoffs the past few years.

i think he's made some god moves for this team and if we win it this year it will be in large part because of his acquisitions.

but along the way you make judgements about people in a more personal way too. everything outside of trades that he's made news for tells me he is a complete jerk. and THAT'S why many people will always hate him.

voodoochile
05-30-2004, 04:50 PM
Originally posted by idseer
i think he's made some god moves for this team and if we win it this year it will be in large part because of his acquisitions.

but along the way you make judgements about people in a more personal way too. everything outside of trades that he's made news for tells me he is a complete jerk. and THAT'S why many people will always hate him.

*****! This is the same argument people use on Frank! "Well, I just don't like the guy."

Who freaking cares? Just win...:?:

fquaye149
05-30-2004, 04:58 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
How about NFOK, No Friends of Kenny, can we join?


:whoflungpoo:



good f'n' god. most everything we've accomplished this year is a result of kenny

ozzie

loaiza

schoenweis

uribe

willie

shingo

take away them and even with the blockbuster trades another gm would have clearly made that KW was unable to accomplish and we would have still been SOL.

but those acquisitions were all luck


in past years, KW's performance has been debatable but he has singlehandedly shored up our concerns in the losses of colon and alomar, not to mention recovered well from our bullpen problems last year and the loss of gordon and sullivan.

oh and, seems to have fixed our managerial problems.


meanwhile the a's are languishing in the west.





:angry:

idseer
05-30-2004, 05:20 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
*****! This is the same argument people use on Frank! "Well, I just don't like the guy."

Who freaking cares? Just win...:?:

i want both, voodoo. i want to to win AND like everyone involved with the team.

what's the 'dream' color again?

nasox
05-30-2004, 05:36 PM
Originally posted by idseer
i want both, voodoo. i want to to win AND like everyone involved with the team.

what's the 'dream' color again?

pink as in pipe as in dream as in pipedream. *takes really long breath*

voodoochile
05-30-2004, 06:11 PM
Originally posted by idseer
i want both, voodoo. i want to to win AND like everyone involved with the team.

what's the 'dream' color again?

Well get over it already. What's more important in the end? If we can put up with Dennis Rodman for cripes sake, we can certainly handle an egotistical GM and a headcase DH.

Me? I don't want role models or lovable players, I want guts, talent and winning mentality. I want hard slides and in your face attitude and just a hint of a chip on their shoulder. I want a crazy edge and a wild look in their eyes and I don't care if they sleep around, hate the media, turn over the occasional buffet table or make an ass out of themselves nightly. You want lovable, look 8.1 miles north, but then get ready for that loser thing they tacked on to it. For role models and lovable people, I'll look to politicians... :D:

GO SOX!

Realist
05-30-2004, 07:23 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Me? I don't want role models or lovable players, I want guts, talent and winning mentality. I want hard slides and in your face attitude and just a hint of a chip on their shoulder. I want a crazy edge and a wild look in their eyes and I don't care if they sleep around, hate the media, turn over the occasional buffet table or make an ass out of themselves nightly. You want lovable, look 8.1 miles north, but then get ready for that loser thing they tacked on to it. For role models and lovable people, I'll look to politicians... :D:

GO SOX!

Can you choose one of your own posts to be the POTW? Because this is definitely worthy of the honor.