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balboner
05-29-2004, 05:11 PM
When is KW going to learn that you can't just keep trying different minor league pitchers to fill the number 5 spot! There's a reason that the White Sox minor league pitching prospects aren't highly touted, and it's cause they dont have major league stuff.

oheeoh...magglio
05-29-2004, 05:14 PM
The Sox have 2 options:

1. Continue the insanity of calling different people up to get killed every 5th day.

2. Make a trade.


I mean this is just pathetic now, please make a trade KW and soon!

dpbyron
05-29-2004, 05:15 PM
I am confident that KW will go out and fill this gaping hole in our rotation. Remember, the synonym for prospect is suspect!

doublem23
05-29-2004, 05:16 PM
It takes two to make a trade, you know.

balboner
05-29-2004, 05:16 PM
I didn't think this was possible, but Rauch is worse than Wright and Diaz. Rauch could have easily given up 10 runs this game without help from the Angels. He should definitely be included in any trades for a 5th starter.

doublem23
05-29-2004, 05:17 PM
Originally posted by balboner
I didn't think this was possible, but Rauch is worse than Wright and Diaz. Rauch could have easily given up 10 runs this game without help from the Angels. He should definitely be included in any trades for a 5th starter.

You're joking right? Diaz got hammered by Cleveland.

fquaye149
05-29-2004, 05:33 PM
Originally posted by doublem23
You're joking right? Diaz got hammered by Cleveland.


diaz did get hammered, but he only had 1 bad inning

rauch was getting smoked all game long . . .although he too only had one bad inning

the sox flashed some big glove for both of them though

ChiSox7
05-29-2004, 05:46 PM
KW said he would have loved nothing more than to make a trade, but nobody was willing to make a trade with him this early in the season so they can gauge and see if they are still in it. KW all but said he didnt want Rausch out there to start, but there wasn't much of a choice.

Blueprint1
05-29-2004, 06:45 PM
Hey guys we didn't exactly produce any runs today.

soxtalker
05-29-2004, 06:51 PM
Rauch was getting hit pretty hard. Did anyone see (or hear an announcer discuss) why? Were his pitches not moving, always at the same speed, etc? I'm hoping for something more than "he can't pitch". One positive was that he only walked one batter, and, from what I saw, he didn't seem to be getting behind in the count that much.

nitetrain8601
05-29-2004, 07:03 PM
He really didn't have a chance to get behind on batters when he gave up hits with the pitches he threw.

owensmouth
05-29-2004, 07:16 PM
Basically, he was putting his pitches equidistant between the sides of the plate. He'd make a fine batting practice pitcher.

I'll be nice, He hasn't regained what he lost following those surgeries.

MikeKreevich
05-29-2004, 07:24 PM
A little too much negativity. The Angles were due to win.

johnny_mostil
05-29-2004, 07:32 PM
Originally posted by balboner
When is KW going to learn that you can't just keep trying different minor league pitchers to fill the number 5 spot! There's a reason that the White Sox minor league pitching prospects aren't highly touted, and it's cause they dont have major league stuff.

So who's next? Arnie Munoz? 6-0 in AA... :?:

They'll next need a #5 for the Atlanta game two weeks from today. then twice more by my count in June.

Oh, well, Twins lost... time for my "exercise" ( :gulp: )

Rex Hudler
05-29-2004, 08:35 PM
Originally posted by balboner
When is KW going to learn that you can't just keep trying different minor league pitchers to fill the number 5 spot! There's a reason that the White Sox minor league pitching prospects aren't highly touted, and it's cause they dont have major league stuff.

Or perhaps it is just because the Sox set them up to fail? Good organizations put their people in a position to succeed. The Sox have done just the opposite.

batmanZoSo
05-29-2004, 08:47 PM
Originally posted by Rex Hudler
Or perhaps it is just because the Sox set them up to fail? Good organizations put their people in a position to succeed. The Sox have done just the opposite.

That's true. That's basically been the story of the KW era. It's not entirely his fault as we wouldn't be having this conversation were it not for JR's "budget." We'd otherwise have 5 starters instead of four. However, he's generally been subpar at what you described--putting players in a position to succeed.

First move, signed Royce Clayton, move Valentin to third, Perry out of the lineup, Valentin to center...all to accomidate possibly the worst hitter in major league history (certainly played that way at the time). Completely ignores the value of Valentin and Perry to that team as if he were a total outsider--or a clueless insider.

String of premature call-ups. Garland, Wright, Rauch, Cotts and Diaz were all brought up before they were ready.

Rowand, the poor bastard, has been thrown out in center since he got here..a position he never played with regularity if at all.

Lip Man 1
05-29-2004, 08:53 PM
I grant you the Sox may not have put the 'can't miss kids,' in the best position however when push comes to shove, these are the big leagues.

You put up or shut up.

It simply hasn't worked...not this year, not last year, not in 1996.

"It's time," for the Sox to either stop relying on kids to make up for their shortcomings in pitching and go out and start spending money on proven MLB pitchers...

or

Start drafting, signing, stealing much better prospects.

I can't see any other way to solve this can you?

Lip

Rex Hudler
05-29-2004, 08:58 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
I grant you the Sox may not have put the 'can't miss kids,' in the best position however when push comes to shove, these are the big leagues.

You put up or shut up.

It simply hasn't worked...not this year, not last year, not in 1996.

"It's time," for the Sox to either stop relying on kids to make up for their shortcomings in pitching and go out and start spending money on proven MLB pitchers...

or

Start drafting, signing, stealing much better prospects.

I can't see any other way to solve this can you?

Lip

My belief is that Diaz should have started this game as well as the one Cotts started. If they truly felt he was a viable option, abandoning him after two starts (one after not pitching for 12 days and the other on three days rest) was extremely premature.

The only way I can see what the Sox have done as acceptable is if they just really felt they had no options and they had to stick SOMEBODY in there..... kind of like putting a bandaid on a big gash until you can get the doc to stitch it up.

Aside from showing a little faith in one of their own Minor Leaguers and not abandoning them quickly, a trade is the only other option in my mind.

Good thing the Sox won't need another 5th starter for about 10-12 days.

batmanZoSo
05-29-2004, 08:59 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
I grant you the Sox may not have put the 'can't miss kids,' in the best position however when push comes to shove, these are the big leagues.

You put up or shut up.

It simply hasn't worked...not this year, not last year, not in 1996.

"It's time," for the Sox to either stop relying on kids to make up for their shortcomings in pitching and go out and start spending money on proven MLB pitchers...

or

Start drafting, signing, stealing much better prospects.

I can't see any other way to solve this can you?

Lip

Nope.

Either you spend money for "outside" help or you bank your future on REAL prospects--not these wannabes drafted 20th overall or much lower that they hype mercilessly to trick the fans into thinking we have a future.

You either be the Marlins--great farm system.
Or the Yankees--spend the money.

Both methods produce championships.

batmanZoSo
05-29-2004, 09:00 PM
Originally posted by Rex Hudler
My belief is that Diaz should have started this game as well as the one Cotts started. If they truly felt he was a viable option, abandoning him after two starts (one after not pitching for 12 days and the other on three days rest) was extremely premature.

The only way I can see what the Sox have done as acceptable is if they just really felt they had no options and they had to stick SOMEBODY in there..... kind of like putting a bandaid on a big gash until you can get the doc to stitch it up.

Aside from showing a little faith in one of their own Minor Leaguers and not abandoning them quickly, a trade is the only other option in my mind.

Good thing the Sox won't need another 5th starter for about 10-12 days.

From what I've heard we won't need a 5th starter for three weeks.

SoxFan76
05-29-2004, 09:25 PM
Bottom line, Sox do not have any REAL pitching prospects. That is nobody that stands out and you say "This guy is going to be good."

BUT, I still have faith in Cotts and Diaz. Those two I feel can be pretty good one day, and hopefully it's for the White Sox. I honestly thought Rauch was going to be really good based on his height alone, but look where that got him.

Cheer up guys, it's pretty hard to sweep the Angels, and as long as the Sox win tomorrow, it will all work out.

A. Cavatica
05-29-2004, 09:32 PM
The Sox might need to give Cotts and/or Diaz another crack at the #5 spot this season, and I hope they haven't blown these guys' confidence. Seeing how Rauch's chance went down will be filed in the back of these guys' minds next to their own experiences...

SoxFan76
05-29-2004, 09:51 PM
How did Buerhle make the adjustment from the pen to starting? Was he just a rare case of a good pitcher adjusting quickly?

SOXSINCE'70
05-29-2004, 10:44 PM
With the off days in the next few weeks,it's time to consider a 4 man rotation.Either that or consider an idea Mike Downey
( a SOX fan) put fourth in the Cub-une this morning.Cliff Politte was a starter before he went into the pen.It's worth a try.
I can't stand this %$%& anymore!!!! Why can't the Sox find a
# 5 starter?? Can anyone solve this mystery??If this keeps up,Shaggy,Velma,Daphne,Fred and Scooby will have to be called in. Don't make me say "The Sox could have won the division if it weren't for those meddling kids!!" :D: :o:

batmanZoSo
05-29-2004, 10:49 PM
Originally posted by SOXSINCE'70
With the off days in the next few weeks,it's time to consider a 4 man rotation.Either that or consider an idea Mike Downey
( a SOX fan) put fourth in the Cub-une this morning.Cliff Politte was a starter before he went into the pen.It's worth a try.
I can't stand this %$%& anymore!!!! Why can't the Sox find a
# 5 starter?? Can anyone solve this mystery??If this keeps up,Shaggy,Velma,Daphne,Fred and Scooby will have to be called in. Don't make me say "The Sox could have won the division if it weren't for those meddling kids!!" :D: :o:

It's bizarre I'll give you that. It makes wanna search rosters and see what other teams have for fifth starters. I know for Oakland it's Rich Harden (drooling).

But if you think about it we're lucky this is our only problem. We have 4 good, winning pitchers and one revolving door of nothing. I would've expected two winners and three below average--with the 5th spot being below average, not horrible. We're better off how we are, one move away.

batmanZoSo
05-29-2004, 10:51 PM
Originally posted by SoxFan76
How did Buerhle make the adjustment from the pen to starting? Was he just a rare case of a good pitcher adjusting quickly?

Buehrle was treated right, he came up and wasn't thrown into the fire in 2000. He was brought in relief and went 4-1 and got his confidence going. Then in 01 he won a spot in the rotation, crapped out the first few starts, but they stuck with him and the rest is history.

Lip Man 1
05-29-2004, 10:53 PM
The Sox never seem to have a 5th starter because they are never willing to pay to get one. They always come up short because they can never keep the pitchers they have and are constantly scranbling to dig em out.

Next year...same deal...Loazia and Schowenweis are free agents correct?

Lip

Lip Man 1
05-29-2004, 10:54 PM
But remember with Buehrle the Sox had no intentions of making him a starter. The only reason Manager Gandhi gave him a look-see in the Spring was because of the number of injuries the pitching staff suffered.

Lip

OEO Magglio
05-29-2004, 10:58 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
The Sox never seem to have a 5th starter because they are never willing to pay to get one. They always come up short because they can never keep the pitchers they have and are constantly scranbling to dig em out.

Next year...same deal...Loazia and Schowenweis are free agents correct?

Lip
Shoney has an option, I believe it's around 3 or 4 million so I believe he'll be back. Loaiza is a free agent though.

StockdaleForVeep
05-29-2004, 11:11 PM
I think our problem is that we dont let a guy stay and pitch.

We have wright how much time and he failed, how we're expecting a pitcher to prove in 1-2 starts that he can do it. Let diaz or cotts start, give them experience and work thru it. If we week playing russian roulette with our 5th starter we will get nowhere fast.

What starter tore his achilles spring training that we released? I remember he was considered for a start\long relief role.

beckett21
05-29-2004, 11:55 PM
Originally posted by StockdaleForVeep

What starter tore his achilles spring training that we released? I remember he was considered for a start\long relief role.

Robert Person.

Lip Man 1
05-30-2004, 01:10 AM
Under normal circustances I'd agree with the premise of 'give the kids more time.' However when those same 5th starters are 3-18 the past two seasons alone (and records show they cost the Sox a playoff spot in 96 as well) how much time can you give them.

Paul Konerko mentioned something tonight about the Sox never seem to hit well for these guys. He's right...I think psychologically the Sox say to themselves (subconsciously of course)' well (insert name here) pitching, here's another loss.'

I think part of them expect to lose the game. I'm not saying they tank things when the 5th starter is going, I'm saying the lack of confidence in them affects the rest of the players and they play poorly.

All the more reason why you can't give them time.

Lip

elrod
05-30-2004, 01:20 AM
Paul Konerko mentioned something tonight about the Sox never seem to hit well for these guys. He's right...I think psychologically the Sox say to themselves (subconsciously of course)' well (insert name here) pitching, here's another loss.'

I have my doubts that the hitters just shut down when the fifth starter goes. With few exceptions our fifth starter has squared off against a dominant or very hot pitcher - Sele, Radke, Lee, for instance. Considering how well Cliff Lee threw, or Radke or Sele pitched, I don't see Buehrle or Loaiza winning either. Today Sele's stuff was just that good, and he's been that way for awhile. There wasn't any psychological surrender at all.

And this happens fairly often too. The number one and number five are right after one another so it's not uncommon for them to face off. It's certainly helped us at times too.

The answer will only come via trade, not a callup. We need another #2 or 3, not a #5. For one, any of our pitchers could get injured. And even if they stay healthy, we have to accept the fact that our "#5" guy will go up against some top starters a lot.

gosox41
05-30-2004, 08:54 AM
Originally posted by soxtalker
Rauch was getting hit pretty hard. Did anyone see (or hear an announcer discuss) why? Were his pitches not moving, always at the same speed, etc? I'm hoping for something more than "he can't pitch". One positive was that he only walked one batter, and, from what I saw, he didn't seem to be getting behind in the count that much.

I'm no pitcing expert but was at the game. It seemed to me 95% of his pitches were between 89-91 MPH. He threw one inside pitch to Vlad at 94 MPH but that was it. He also threw a curveball in the 67-70 MPH range but he rarely threw that pitch. It seemed every pitch he threw was out over the plate. Outside of the one hight and tight pitch to Vlad, he rarely worked inside. Plus the threw a ton of strikes and never wasted a pitch when he did get ahead in the count.


Bob

gosox41
05-30-2004, 08:55 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Under normal circustances I'd agree with the premise of 'give the kids more time.' However when those same 5th starters are 3-18 the past two seasons alone (and records show they cost the Sox a playoff spot in 96 as well) how much time can you give them.

Paul Konerko mentioned something tonight about the Sox never seem to hit well for these guys. He's right...I think psychologically the Sox say to themselves (subconsciously of course)' well (insert name here) pitching, here's another loss.'

I think part of them expect to lose the game. I'm not saying they tank things when the 5th starter is going, I'm saying the lack of confidence in them affects the rest of the players and they play poorly.

All the more reason why you can't give them time.

Lip


Of course PK hadn't hit well for anyone since the second half of 2002 all through 2003. :D:


Bob