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oldcomiskey
09-18-2001, 04:44 PM
what the bleeding hearts think about us singing God Bless America instead of Take Me Out.... I used to be a liberal, but the older I get the more conservative I become, or moderate anyway. Im stuck in the middle .The ACLU has ruled us long enough--lets get back to basics--God, Country, and the Sox playing the Yankees

voodoochile
09-18-2001, 04:59 PM
Originally posted by oldcomiskey
what the bleeding hearts think about us singing God Bless America instead of Take Me Out.... I used to be a liberal, but the older I get the more conservative I become, or moderate anyway. Im stuck in the middle .The ACLU has ruled us long enough--lets get back to basics--God, Country, and the Sox playing the Yankees

Exactly WHO has the ACLU ruled? This is as bad as people blaming all our problems on religion. The ACLU is a group dedicated to upholding the Bill of Rights and seeing that it is enforced equally across the board. You're right, let's get back to basics... Country, Family, Friends, Fun...

Life Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness... God only matters if he matters to the individual in question. It is an individual decision, highly personel and purely subjective anything else is a misreading of the very constitution your right to worship is based on, IMO...

Daver
09-18-2001, 05:00 PM
I never thought I would miss 2 words so much,PLAY BALL!

voodoochile
09-18-2001, 05:02 PM
Originally posted by daver
I never thought I would miss 2 words so much,PLAY BALL!

Well said, Daver... Play Ball indeed...

oldcomiskey
09-18-2001, 05:36 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile


Exactly WHO has the ACLU ruled? This is as bad as people blaming all our problems on religion. The ACLU is a group dedicated to upholding the Bill of Rights and seeing that it is enforced equally across the board. You're right, let's get back to basics... Country, Family, Friends, Fun...

Life Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness... God only matters if he matters to the individual in question. It is an individual decision, highly personel and purely subjective anything else is a misreading of the very constitution your right to worship is based on, IMO...
yeah yeah sure sure--say that on your deathbed that God dont matter to you

oldcomiskey
09-18-2001, 05:40 PM
Ill go you one better voodoo--the ACLU is no better than Al Sharpton or Jerry Falwell---they twist things to make you believe that everything is equal---but it is not in the southeast===for the only crature you can sling arrows at and not risk the speech police is the straight white southern male---and if you dont believe in God and Christ then you have no buisness telling others how to live---go carry your ACLU somewhere else---I aint buying into that garbage

voodoochile
09-18-2001, 05:50 PM
Originally posted by oldcomiskey
Ill go you one better voodoo--the ACLU is no better than Al Sharpton or Jerry Falwell---they twist things to make you believe that everything is equal---but it is not in the southeast===for the only crature you can sling arrows at and not risk the speech police is the straight white southern male---and if you dont believe in God and Christ then you have no buisness telling others how to live---go carry your ACLU somewhere else---I aint buying into that garbage

Going to be blunt about this, OC... It will be my last reply in this thread because I have no use for people who think theirs is the only true way to live. I am an atheist. I was raised by an atheist. I no more accept your truth than you do mine. What gives someone who does believe in God and Christ the right to tell others how to live? Because you believe it is so? Welcome to America the Godless country where everyone can have a say, even dogmatic, intolerent people like you...

MarqSox
09-18-2001, 05:55 PM
I'm what most people would call a "bleedin hearts" liberal. I love the ACLU and am proud it defends my Constitution. That said, I can't wait to sing God Bless America tonight. Keep in mind, this is a baseball game -- a private entity -- not a school or a government installation. I love my country and I love the Sox.

Spiff
09-18-2001, 07:31 PM
Originally posted by oldcomiskey

yeah yeah sure sure--say that on your deathbed that God dont matter to you

He's got a point there.

Procol Harum
09-18-2001, 07:42 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Welcome to America the Godless country...

Hardly! There's a reason that "the nation with the soul of a church," as DeTocqueville described it, has expressed so much religious sentiment in our recent time of crisis. Gallup in its annual tracking over the years registers between 93-95% of the people regularly expressing a belief in a Supreme Being of some sort (nat'l religious breakdown is 91% Christian, 2% Jewish, 3% "other" and about 4% who profess no religious beliefs). On any given Sunday about 40% of the population is in church. Compare this figure every Sunday with the turnout for our presidential elections every 4 years.

For a general statistical look at some recent Gallup polling on religion see

http://www.gallup.com/poll/Indicators/indReligion.asp#RelatedAnalyses

voodoochile
09-18-2001, 10:11 PM
Originally posted by Procol Harum


Hardly! There's a reason that "the nation with the soul of a church," as DeTocqueville described it, has expressed so much religious sentiment in our recent time of crisis. Gallup in its annual tracking over the years registers between 93-95% of the people regularly expressing a belief in a Supreme Being of some sort (nat'l religious breakdown is 91% Christian, 2% Jewish, 3% "other" and about 4% who profess no religious beliefs). On any given Sunday about 40% of the population is in church. Compare this figure every Sunday with the turnout for our presidential elections every 4 years.

For a general statistical look at some recent Gallup polling on religion see

http://www.gallup.com/poll/Indicators/indReligion.asp#RelatedAnalyses

Sorry, bad wording... I meant the country where one version of God does not hold sway over the others... Hence there is no "official version" of God. Hence... Godless. Personally I don't care what the people believe individually... I just don't want a state sanctioned religion. Back to the original point... The ACLU defends religious people too... And they are 100% right, IMO in their defense of keeping God out of Government sponsered institutions and buildings. It isn't fair to the people who don't accept whichever version of God gets posted... If you post them all you still risk alienating people like me who do not believe in God at all. Why should one version be accepted over the others? God/No God/Christian/Muslim/Jew/Hindu, etc. they all are different, they all believe they are the ONE TRUE PATH... Most (or most likely ALL) of them (by definition) MUST be wrong...

As to the people who believe I will find God on my deathbed... I doubt it, but all men are weak at that time. Firmly I believe that not a single version of God has been put forth that I can subscribe to 100%. ALL of the religions make God out to be petty, mean spirited, filled with deceit and arrogant, IMO. I will not worship nor bow down to anything that fits that description...

Fire away...

voodoochile
09-18-2001, 10:14 PM
Oh, one other thing... 91% Christian? Isn't that the same breakdown as in Ireland? When you folks can all agree on what God and his Boy Jesus meant... then I will consider you all one belief... until that day...

Also... by what definition Christian? Because they say so? Do Born again Chritians really accept that Catholics are Christian? What about all those false icons, silly rituals and lies?

Am I offending people? Sorry, but don't cry to me... It's your world, I am merely living in it...

Dadawg_77
09-18-2001, 10:39 PM
Originally posted by Procol Harum


Hardly! There's a reason that "the nation with the soul of a church," as DeTocqueville described it, has expressed so much religious sentiment in our recent time of crisis. Gallup in its annual tracking over the years registers between 93-95% of the people regularly expressing a belief in a Supreme Being of some sort (nat'l religious breakdown is 91% Christian, 2% Jewish, 3% "other" and about 4% who profess no religious beliefs). On any given Sunday about 40% of the population is in church. Compare this figure every Sunday with the turnout for our presidential elections every 4 years.

For a general statistical look at some recent Gallup polling on religion see

http://www.gallup.com/poll/Indicators/indReligion.asp#RelatedAnalyses

So 0%- 12% (adding in 4% error margin) of the country is atheist. Thus we could say there are probally more atheist in this country then people who believe in a non Christian religion. Thus atheisism is the second largest spritual view point in this country.

Secondly if you asked how of the people who respond yes to do you believe in a higher being, who goes regulary to serivce, you will see drop in people according to the latest survey done on May 10-12, almost 60% of this country hasn't been to a church or synagogue with in the previous week. While the number of people who went to service this week will likly increase due to Tues. events and this being a Jewish High Holiday, the number will most likly decrease begining next week to normal low levels.

So what we have is a bunch of people who say they believe in god but don't go to service, thus as 55% of the survey repondent said, reglion is losing influence on American life.

As note personaly I'm neither for nor against person believing in God. I don't like organize religion, since I think it has lead to more problems then is solved in the history of humankind. Most hypocrites I know usally claim to be god fearing people then walk outside and act like a-holes who don't care for anyone but them selves. I more of agnostic, I believe there is some sort of cosmic power, not sure if its a supreme being or more like karma type force. Plus I believe alot of people believe in god as a way to hedge their bets for when they die. If you're wrong, no real loss, if you right then you got a ticket in.

Also this thread might need to be move to the lot.

Dadawg_77
09-18-2001, 10:49 PM
Originally posted by oldcomiskey
Ill go you one better voodoo--the ACLU is no better than Al Sharpton or Jerry Falwell---they twist things to make you believe that everything is equal---but it is not in the southeast===for the only crature you can sling arrows at and not risk the speech police is the straight white southern male---and if you dont believe in God and Christ then you have no buisness telling others how to live---go carry your ACLU somewhere else---I aint buying into that garbage

Honestly, not to say it is right, but while the southern white man may get pick on recently, how long go was it you could hurrel arrows at blacks and minorities in the Southeast without anyone caring? Hell, it was expected and encouraged with Jim Crow laws and firehoses. So to answer your point, welecome to the crowd. While it may not be right, this is the backlash for what white people not only in the Southeast but all over this Country did for hundreds of years before the civil rights movement happen. So if you feel you are being pick on, well to fn bad, life tough, try walking in some one elses shoes to see how much tougher it can get. Oh, in case you're wondering I'm a white city kid form Chicago.

Dadawg_77
09-18-2001, 10:50 PM
Originally posted by oldcomiskey
what the bleeding hearts think about us singing God Bless America instead of Take Me Out.... I used to be a liberal, but the older I get the more conservative I become, or moderate anyway. Im stuck in the middle .The ACLU has ruled us long enough--lets get back to basics--God, Country, and the Sox playing the Yankees

Anyways to answer the orignal question, I will take Ray Charles with America the Beautiful over God Bless America any day. I think it is a better song.

CLR01
09-19-2001, 02:25 AM
Originally posted by oldcomiskey

yeah yeah sure sure--say that on your deathbed that God dont matter to you

Originally posted by Wh1teSox00

He's got a point there.

He does?? What is it? So because OldComiskey, yourself and millions of other people believe there is a god it can be determined that every individual, reguardless of the beliefs they held while living, will be praying to this god as they face death. Bull****, i don't want to speak for voodoo but unless something happens within the next day to 80 years (depending on how long i live) to change my mind other than a book and some people preaching that book,then on my death bed, i will be thinking about my family and the experiances i had during my life, not about whether or not i am going to heaven or hell, because at present in my mind such places do not exist. If i am wrong in the end and there is a god, well whats the fear, god should forgive and all will be well, afterall i can not be held responsible for him not making his existiance know, its not like i have killed anyone so far and i don't plan to in the future. All he would have to do is appear for a few minutes and explain to everybody that he does exist and what guidlines we should live by, then we could get rid of every other religion except the right one and put an end to all this fighting over different beliefs. Also we can stop arguing over whether he is white, black, spanish, indian, chinese, green, a ball of light with a voice, etc...we could even agree on whether he is male or female, afterall everything has to have a gender, even the cables that plug into my computer have a gender.

Iguana775
09-19-2001, 08:19 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile


Going to be blunt about this, OC... It will be my last reply in this thread because I have no use for people who think theirs is the only true way to live. I am an atheist. I was raised by an atheist. I no more accept your truth than you do mine. What gives someone who does believe in God and Christ the right to tell others how to live? Because you believe it is so? Welcome to America the Godless country where everyone can have a say, even dogmatic, intolerent people like you...

i agree voodoo. although i am not an atheist myself, i do have 'limited' views on religion. but i will not go in to that cause this is neither the time nor place. i too cant stand when someone tries to preach to me. i am not saying that you are, OC. but one of the things that makes this country great is the fact we can believe in any religion and worship anyone/thing we want. hell, i could go out and worship a tire iron if i please. lol.

Iguana775
09-19-2001, 08:30 AM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77

As note personaly I'm neither for nor against person believing in God. I don't like organize religion, since I think it has lead to more problems then is solved in the history of humankind. Most hypocrites I know usally claim to be god fearing people then walk outside and act like a-holes who don't care for anyone but them selves. I more of agnostic, I believe there is some sort of cosmic power, not sure if its a supreme being or more like karma type force. Plus I believe alot of people believe in god as a way to hedge their bets for when they die. If you're wrong, no real loss, if you right then you got a ticket in.


i agree, DD. i think religion has been twisted so much thoughout the history of time, that there is no religion in the world that is even remotely close to being correct. this is why i believe what i believe. IMO, no one really knows what religion really is anymore. people just twist it to conform to their own thoughts and beliefs and when people tell me who and what i have to praise, it really pisses me off. i dont try to force my beliefs on them so dont do it to me. people that do that are, IMO, no better than hitler and bin Laben. sorry if that offends people but this is how i feel and i have a right as an american to express what i feel.

ma-gaga
09-19-2001, 09:04 AM
Religion wouldn't exist without faith. The religious world would fall apart if god, allah or the tire iron revealed himself.

i'm glad for all the different religions. yes, it makes for some terrible conflicts over the years, but without them, we'd lose what makes humans unique.

Well, along with the general environmental defication... anyways. PLAY BALL!!!

mrwag
09-19-2001, 09:06 AM
One thing that I think everyone could agree upon is the 10 Commandments. If you read through all 10 of them, isn't life pretty simple? If we abide by those rules, this world would be a much better place, regardless of religion.

Dadawg_77
09-19-2001, 10:40 AM
Originally posted by mrwag
One thing that I think everyone could agree upon is the 10 Commandments. If you read through all 10 of them, isn't life pretty simple? If we abide by those rules, this world would be a much better place, regardless of religion.

The last seven are pretty good rules to follow, it just those first three, that throw people off. Personally I think Jesus said best when he said there are only two commandments in the new covenant, lover your god with all your soul and heart, and love your fellow man with all your should and heart. While some may not believe in the concept of god, and that is their right even regions say people have free will, the last part is something we all should strive to live by since it will make us better people and this planet a better place to live in. Oh this is based on the Catholic version of the Bible, I know Protestant and Jewish versions differ on the Ten Commandments.

Procol Harum
09-19-2001, 10:48 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
God/No God/Christian/Muslim/Jew/Hindu, etc. they all are different, they all believe they are the ONE TRUE PATH... Most (or most likely ALL) of them (by definition) MUST be wrong...


Well, although I don't agree with your atheism, at least you're headed towards logic on this issue, unlike the mushy-headed pc relativism that rules the day in our society. They all can't be right if their doctrines, theologies, and cosmology disagree with each other. But, then again, you get angered when Christians or anyone else (except yourself, strangely) insists that they are "right."

Procol Harum
09-19-2001, 10:51 AM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
The last seven are pretty good rules to follow, it just those first three, that throw people off. Oh this is based on the Catholic version of the Bible, I know Protestant and Jewish versions differ on the Ten Commandments.

Dadawg, the Catholic and Protestant "versions" of the Ten Commandments are the same as the "Jewish" version--it's all from the same text--the Pentateuch, the Torah--the first 5 books of the "Old Testament" or the Jewish Tanach.

Procol Harum
09-19-2001, 11:03 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Oh, one other thing... 91% Christian? Isn't that the same breakdown as in Ireland? When you folks can all agree on what God and his Boy Jesus meant... then I will consider you all one belief... until that day...
Also... by what definition Christian? Because they say so? Do Born again Chritians really accept that Catholics are Christian? What about all those false icons, silly rituals and lies?
Am I offending people? Sorry, but don't cry to me... It's your world, I am merely living in it...

Actually, the Irish count would be higher. And if you study the basic doctrines of Christian denominations, they have an incredible unity in their basic beliefs--ie, the Apostle's Creed, Nicene Creed, etc., etc. Even the detailed doctrinal statements would--if examined by an uninitiated neutral Martian--lead folks to believe that there is almost no difference between the groups. What is indefensible, is that given that unity, there has been so much sniping over minor differences over the years. It has surely hurt the cause, and rightly so. Much of the conflict originates in various cultural and ethnic tensions and poltical manuevering (for example, see Henry VIII)which have hijacked the Church(es) for less than lofty purposes.

Thankfully, American Christians have in recent years begun concentrating on their unity. For a sample of the changes in attitudes, cooperation and obstacles between the "Born Again Christians" and the Catholics, see the book Evangelicals and Catholics Together, edited by Charles Colson and Richard John Neuhaus (1994).

Procol Harum
09-19-2001, 11:25 AM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
So 0%- 12% (adding in 4% error margin) of the country is atheist. Thus we could say there are probally more atheist in this country then people who believe in a non Christian religion. Thus atheisism is the second largest spritual view point in this country.

Secondly if you asked how of the people who respond yes to do you believe in a higher being, who goes regulary to serivce, you will see drop in people according to the latest survey done on May 10-12, almost 60% of this country hasn't been to a church or synagogue with in the previous week. While the number of people who went to service this week will likly increase due to Tues. events and this being a Jewish High Holiday, the number will most likly decrease begining next week to normal low levels.

So what we have is a bunch of people who say they believe in god but don't go to service, thus as 55% of the survey repondent said, reglion is losing influence on American life.


The Gallup surveys have been tracking this data since the late '30s, plus they are pretty large samples so I don't think their margin of error is as high as 4%--the numbers have been remarkably consistent and tracked in the same range 3-6% for 60+ years (highest numbers coming in the '70s). The point would still be that the number of "non-religionists" vs. people who have religious beliefs is vast--19 to 1, at a generous estimation for the thorough-going secularists.

As to weekly attendance--remember that it is about WEEKLY attendance--how about all the folk who go every 2-3, weeks, monthly, or at least give it the nodding importance at Christmas and Easter--or when terrorist attacks occur? Again, compare to other aspects of American life--perspective is the key. How many people have attended, say, a Major League baseball game in the last week (those who attended last night's Sox-Yankee debacle still couldn't make that claim :) )? How many folks vote every four years in the Presi--stinkin'--dential elections? Heck, the recent survey showed that 60% of the population claims (at least claims, because they think it's a good idea if they did--who was it that said that hypocrisy is vice's tribute to virtue?) that they read the Bible at least weekly.
Compare that to how many folks look through Time, Newsweek, or US & World Report weekly.

As for the numbers talking about religion losing its influence--those are about the perception of those being surveyed. A major percentage of those folks who state they think that religion is losing its influence are the more religious folks who are concerned about the drift of the nation's morals and piety. And, as Gallup itself reports, their numbers overall indicate that the country is more religious now, than it was 10 years ago, but not as religious as it was in the '50s and '60s.

Dadawg_77
09-19-2001, 12:31 PM
Originally posted by Procol Harum


The Gallup surveys have been tracking this data since the late '30s, plus they are pretty large samples so I don't think their margin of error is as high as 4%--the numbers have been remarkably consistent and tracked in the same range 3-6% for 60+ years (highest numbers coming in the '70s). The point would still be that the number of "non-religionists" vs. people who have religious beliefs is vast--19 to 1, at a generous estimation for the thorough-going secularists.

As to weekly attendance--remember that it is about WEEKLY attendance--how about all the folk who go every 2-3, weeks, monthly, or at least give it the nodding importance at Christmas and Easter--or when terrorist attacks occur? Again, compare to other aspects of American life--perspective is the key. How many people have attended, say, a Major League baseball game in the last week (those who attended last night's Sox-Yankee debacle still couldn't make that claim :) )? How many folks vote every four years in the Presi--stinkin'--dential elections? Heck, the recent survey showed that 60% of the population claims (at least claims, because they think it's a good idea if they did--who was it that said that hypocrisy is vice's tribute to virtue?) that they read the Bible at least weekly.
Compare that to how many folks look through Time, Newsweek, or US & World Report weekly.

As for the numbers talking about religion losing its influence--those are about the perception of those being surveyed. A major percentage of those folks who state they think that religion is losing its influence are the more religious folks who are concerned about the drift of the nation's morals and piety. And, as Gallup itself reports, their numbers overall indicate that the country is more religious now, than it was 10 years ago, but not as religious as it was in the '50s and '60s.

Most Gallup polls, that I have seen, are 95% confindent that the error range is +/- 4%. For those may not know, it means there is a 95% percent chance that that the actuall percentage of the whole population is within 4% points of the percentage of the sample. The confindce level comes from mathical formuals what level of cofindence a sample size can produce. The larger your sample size the more confindent you are with the numbers. Gallup goes for the 95/4 combo because it is relativly acturate and cost effective.

I was just trying to point out you can't be so dismissive of second largest spritual group in America. I brought who goes, because I think the question ;do you believe in higher power, ( I didn't see the actual question, I didn't see the number at the link) is a loaded question and not realy a effective tool for survey work. People will answer yes, they may believe in a higher power, god but do they practice thier beliefs would be a better question on detrimining the effect of reglion on people ethical and decsion making process. It is my belief that the concept of God is so engrained in our culture people would answer yes to the the question do believe yet not really practice those beliefs. When it comes to sprituals matter, I think survey can't really portray an accurate pitcher because of loaded question, and peoples reactions to the question.

Dadawg_77
09-19-2001, 12:47 PM
I just found the continue button at the link.
If you sort through the numbers, some contradict each other, like 65% believe the bible holds the answer to lifes question but 41% rarely or never read the thing. 10% read it less then monthly. 29% of the sample seldom go to services, and 10% never do. 30% percent go every week, 11% almost go every week, 12% go about once a month. So 52% go to services at least once a month, not much for nation that 90% believe in God. Like I said before, surveys are not great to judge what people believe when it comes to religion because more people are apat to lie and the questions are loaded and very broad.

As for margin of error, I can't find it. But a press release about people feelings about evolution had 95% conf. level and 3% margin of error. So the numbers for these surveys should be around there.

voodoochile
09-19-2001, 12:52 PM
Procul, I'm not angry when I don't get my way... If I come across that way, please forgive me, it has been a rough week. I don't like people telling me how I will feel on my death bed or claiming that people with no-religious beliefs shouldn't be allowed to tell the rest of you how to live. I don't think anyone wants that. I know that I certainly do not. All I ask is that we keep the foundations of the Bill of Rights intact. That in almost every reading ever done by the Supreme Court means no religious icons in government buildings and definitely no State accepted religion. I don't care what people do with their own time, money and energy. Never have... never will, and that means if you want to worship Satan, Jesus or Brahma, knock yourself out. If you want to shoot heroin into your veins until your eyeballs pop out of your head that is fine too. So long as you don't harm others in your pursuit of happiness, I say live and let live.

The point isn't about who has the majority of the beliefs structure in the country anyway. America has always been about protecting the minority point of view. That is why it is legal in this country to burn the flag if you so choose. While I agree with the principle on that one I also will try by any means personally available to stop you (that is the generic you) from doing so. I still don't want the government stopping it.

Belief in God is a highly personel issue. If we allow religious icons and monuments in state sponsered buildings we start to build a wall between the people who don't accept that religious belief or hold none and the state itself. From there it is a relatively small step to incorporating Christian beliefs into school teachings, having mandatory church attendance (or at the least ostracism of those without the shared beliefs). It isn't hard to imagine a country where people are shunned because they do not go to the "right church". There have already been attacks on Muslim Americans because of the actions of last week. Those people (or roughly 91% of them) believe in your Christian God. Are they to be looked up to? To be held up as examles of what religious power can do?

Things in America are fine the way they are. Keep the religion out of government, it is not only the fair and decent thing to do, it is the law...

voodoochile
09-19-2001, 01:00 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
I just found the continue button at the link.
If you sort through the numbers, some contradict each other, like 65% believe the bible holds the answer to lifes question but 41% rarely or never read the thing. 10% read it less then monthly. 29% of the sample seldom go to services, and 10% never do. 30% percent go every week, 11% almost go every week, 12% go about once a month. So 52% go to services at least once a month, not much for nation that 90% believe in God. Like I said before, surveys are not great to judge what people believe when it comes to religion because more people are apat to lie and the questions are loaded and very broad.

As for margin of error, I can't find it. But a press release about people feelings about evolution had 95% conf. level and 3% margin of error. So the numbers for these surveys should be around there.

So almost half the country does not attend church on a monthly basis... In fact including the margin of error it may be over half...

Interesting question not addressed... What percentage of those people think religion should be involved in government decisions, and buildings? I would bet we would find the numbers swinging the other way on that one...

Bmr31
09-19-2001, 01:02 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Procul, I'm not angry when I don't get my way... If I come across that way, please forgive me, it has been a rough week. I don't like people telling me how I will feel on my death bed or claiming that people with no-religious beliefs shouldn't be allowed to tell the rest of you how to live. I don't think anyone wants that. I know that I certainly do not. All I ask is that we keep the foundations of the Bill of Rights intact. That in almost every reading ever done by the Supreme Court means no religious icons in government buildings and definitely no State accepted religion. I don't care what people do with their own time, money and energy. Never have... never will, and that means if you want to worship Satan, Jesus or Brahma, knock yourself out. If you want to shoot heroin into your veins until your eyeballs pop out of your head that is fine too. So long as you don't harm others in your pursuit of happiness, I say live and let live.

The point isn't about who has the majority of the beliefs structure in the country anyway. America has always been about protecting the minority point of view. That is why it is legal in this country to burn the flag if you so choose. While I agree with the principle on that one I also will try by any means personally available to stop you (that is the generic you) from doing so. I still don't want the government stopping it.

Belief in God is a highly personel issue. If we allow religious icons and monuments in state sponsered buildings we start to build a wall between the people who don't accept that religious belief or hold none and the state itself. From there it is a relatively small step to incorporating Christian beliefs into school teachings, having mandatory church attendance (or at the least ostracism of those without the shared beliefs). It isn't hard to imagine a country where people are shunned because they do not go to the "right church". There have already been attacks on Muslim Americans because of the actions of last week. Those people (or roughly 91% of them) believe in your Christian God. Are they to be looked up to? To be held up as examles of what religious power can do?

Things in America are fine the way they are. Keep the religion out of government, it is not only the fair and decent thing to do, it is the law...


calling God "your god" is very offensive. I dont give a crap if you believe in God or not. He is everyones God...

voodoochile
09-19-2001, 01:06 PM
Originally posted by Bmr31



calling God "your god" is very offensive. I dont give a crap if you believe in God or not. He is everyones God...

There is no God to me, so I look for a way to describe It that makes my point. Since there sre several deities in Hinduism, which one is the one that all the Christians believe in?

Bmr31
09-19-2001, 01:08 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile


There is no God to me, so I look for a way to describe It that makes my point. Since there sre several deities in Hinduism, which one is the one that all the Christians believe in?

Thats your problem. Dont make it mine.

voodoochile
09-19-2001, 01:09 PM
BMR... I didn't say "your God" I said "your Chritian God"...

there is a distinct difference and it is exactly your type of response that makes me realize how far we as a country must go to keep intolerant beliefs like yours out of our government...

Bmr31
09-19-2001, 01:12 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
BMR... I didn't say "your God" I said "your Chritian God"...

there is a distinct difference and it is exactly your type of response that makes me realize how far we as a country must go to keep intolerant beliefs like yours out of our government...

I could care less if religion is in or out of out government. Keep your religious beliefs to yourself. This is a baseball bulletin board.

voodoochile
09-19-2001, 01:12 PM
Originally posted by Bmr31


Thats your problem. Dont make it mine.

You're the one who decided to weigh in on the topic with a highly intolerant view point that leaves no room for any other belief structure except your own... Sounds like you are the one with the problem. I'll say something you like to say...

"If you don't like my point of view or posts, feel free to ignore me."

voodoochile
09-19-2001, 01:13 PM
Originally posted by Bmr31


I could care less if religion is in or out of out government. Keep your religious beliefs to yourself. This is a baseball bulletin board.

I didn't start the thread. I did get attacked in it and told that my beliefs were less real than others. You don't want to read this thread feel free to stop.

Bmr31
09-19-2001, 01:13 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile


You're the one who decided to weigh in on the topic with a highly intolerant view point that leaves no room for any other belief structure except your own... Sounds like you are the one with the problem. I'll say something you like to say...

"If you don't like my point of view or posts, feel free to ignore me."

I will not allow or ignore, ignorant comments.

voodoochile
09-19-2001, 01:14 PM
Originally posted by Bmr31


I will not allow or ignore, ignorant comments.

Personally I found your comment to be ignorant.

Bmr31
09-19-2001, 01:14 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile


I didn't start the thread. I did get attacked in it and told that my beliefs were less real than others. You don't want to read this thread feel free to stop.

maybe youre being "attacked" because youre offending people. How about shutting up? that may work.....

voodoochile
09-19-2001, 01:16 PM
Originally posted by Bmr31


maybe youre being "attacked" because youre offending people. How about shutting up? that may work.....

They started it... You might follow your own advice on this one...

This was a perfectly normal religious debate about the place of religion in Government until you decided to work your BMR magic on it... Well done...

Bmr31
09-19-2001, 01:18 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile


They started it... You might follow your own advice on this one...

This was a perfectly normal religious debate about the place of religion in Government until you decided to work your BMR magic on it... Well done...


LOL thanks..... :)

Spiff
09-19-2001, 01:47 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
They started it...


Where have I heard that before? Oh yeah 3rd grade.

Bmr31
09-19-2001, 01:59 PM
Originally posted by Wh1teSox00



Where have I heard that before? Oh yeah 3rd grade.


Lol yeah i thought those same thoughts....

Procol Harum
09-19-2001, 02:19 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77


Most Gallup polls, that I have seen, are 95% confindent that the error range is +/- 4%. For those may not know, it means there is a 95% percent chance that that the actuall percentage of the whole population is within 4% points of the percentage of the sample. The confindce level comes from mathical formuals what level of cofindence a sample size can produce. The larger your sample size the more confindent you are with the numbers. Gallup goes for the 95/4 combo because it is relativly acturate and cost effective.

I was just trying to point out you can't be so dismissive of second largest spritual group in America. I brought who goes, because I think the question ;do you believe in higher power, ( I didn't see the actual question, I didn't see the number at the link) is a loaded question and not realy a effective tool for survey work. People will answer yes, they may believe in a higher power, god but do they practice thier beliefs would be a better question on detrimining the effect of reglion on people ethical and decsion making process. It is my belief that the concept of God is so engrained in our culture people would answer yes to the the question do believe yet not really practice those beliefs. When it comes to sprituals matter, I think survey can't really portray an accurate pitcher because of loaded question, and peoples reactions to the question.

Whatever the case as to their statistical probability, the best correlation is the fact that the numbers have been tracking in the same range for such a long time. If there were real statistical anomalies going on in their methods you'd see some bigger swings, one way or the other.

I agree with what you say about the way that religion is engrained in our culture--it shows in polls and in light of recent events like the terrorist attack. Many times, pollers suspect that on this particular question--church attendance--that folks answer with where they usually tend to be on Sunday mornings, or think they SHOULD have been the previous Sunday. And many times people answer questions about Bible reading, prayer, and such things with what they ideally think they should be doing or what they want to be true of themselves. And, overall, there's a substantial difference between the number of people who hold religious views and value spirituality--boith Christian and non-Christian--and those who value "organized" religion or attending religious services.

Dadawg_77
09-19-2001, 02:44 PM
Originally posted by Bmr31


I will not allow or ignore, ignorant comments.

What can't Voodo exerice the principal that you follow?

Bmr31
09-19-2001, 02:52 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77


What can't Voodo exerice the principal that you follow?

who said he couldnt?

Randar68
09-19-2001, 02:56 PM
What can't Voodo exerice the principal that you follow?

It's called hypocracy, I think Bmr has a Masters degree in it...

who said he couldnt?


Uhhh, you tell all of us to ignore or not read your comments when we feel compelled to attack you on comments that are indefensible or ignorant, but when you make that judgement upon others, taking your own advice apparently isn't an option....



























bla!

Bmr31
09-19-2001, 02:58 PM
Originally posted by Randar68


It's called hypocracy, I think Bmr has a Masters degree in it...




Uhhh, you tell all of us to ignore or not read your comments when we feel compelled to attack you on comments that are indefensible or ignorant, but when you make that judgement upon others, taking your own advice apparently isn't an option....

LOL!! Randar youre a funny guy. Why is it that you must always make up lies to try and bring me down? Do i ever do that to you? I never ever ever said ignore what i say, if you dont like it or agree with it.



























bla!

Dadawg_77
09-19-2001, 02:59 PM
Originally posted by Bmr31


I could care less if religion is in or out of out government. Keep your religious beliefs to yourself. This is a baseball bulletin board.
You did here

Dadawg_77
09-19-2001, 03:00 PM
Originally posted by Bmr31


maybe youre being "attacked" because youre offending people. How about shutting up? that may work.....
You did here too

Bmr31
09-19-2001, 03:01 PM
Originally posted by Randar68


It's called hypocracy, I think Bmr has a Masters degree in it...




Uhhh, you tell all of us to ignore or not read your comments when we feel compelled to attack you on comments that are indefensible or ignorant, but when you make that judgement upon others, taking your own advice apparently isn't an option....




























bla!


LOL randar youre a funny guy. Why must you feel the need to make up lies and bring up the past, to make me look bad? Do i do that to you? I never said that you should ignore things that i say, if you dont like or agree with it. In addition, can you stick to the bmr of today and what he says, instead of your perception of who i was 9 months ago? I would appreciate that.

Bmr31
09-19-2001, 03:02 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77

You did here


HUH? I believe that means, if he doesnt want to be attacked for his beliefs, he should keep them off a baseball site. How is that saying he cant believe in what he believes in???????

Kilroy
09-19-2001, 03:07 PM
Originally posted by Bmr31
In addition, can you stick to the bmr of today and what he says, instead of your perception of who i was 9 months ago? I would appreciate that.

The BMR of today told Voodoo to shut up. The BMR of today, if he has no interest in a topic, should not comment on it today. So, BMR of today, the simple answer was to get in the discussion today, or venture off somewhere else today, where ever BMR of today goes. If you would appreciate people treating you like the kinder, gentler BMR of today that you claim to be, then maybe you should act like it -- today.

Bmr31
09-19-2001, 03:09 PM
Originally posted by Kilroy


The BMR of today told Voodoo to shut up. The BMR of today, if he has no interest in a topic, should not comment on it today. So, BMR of today, the simple answer was to get in the discussion today, or venture off somewhere else today, where ever BMR of today goes. If you would appreciate people treating you like the kinder, gentler BMR of today that you claim to be, then maybe you should act like it -- today.

when did i say i was kinder and gentler? I said judge me for today, period. I also did not tell voodoo to shut up. I told him if he was offending people, and didnt like being attacking, maybe he should shut up. would "be quiet" have offended you less?

cheeses_h_rice
09-19-2001, 03:16 PM
Originally posted by Bmr31


when did i say i was kinder and gentler? I said judge me for today, period. I also did not tell voodoo to shut up. I told him if he was offending people, and didnt like being attacking, maybe he should shut up. would "be quiet" have offended you less?

BMR, sorry, but you really started this whole argument. VC was making a point about "your Christian God" -- which is fine, because there are different interpretations about God/Allah/etc. -- and YOU got all offended and stated that "he" is "everyone's God." I'd beg to differ if I were Hindu, Muslim, etc.

Sounds like you're the one who should be keeping quiet in this whole thread. You're not the only one whose opinion should be taken as gospel -- isn't that what America is all about?

Procol Harum
09-19-2001, 03:17 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Procul, I'm not angry when I don't get my way... If I come across that way, please forgive me, it has been a rough week. I don't like people telling me how I will feel on my death bed or claiming that people with no-religious beliefs shouldn't be allowed to tell the rest of you how to live. I don't think anyone wants that. I know that I certainly do not. All I ask is that we keep the foundations of the Bill of Rights intact. That in almost every reading ever done by the Supreme Court means no religious icons in government buildings and definitely no State accepted religion. I don't care what people do with their own time, money and energy. Never have... never will, and that means if you want to worship Satan, Jesus or Brahma, knock yourself out. If you want to shoot heroin into your veins until your eyeballs pop out of your head that is fine too. So long as you don't harm others in your pursuit of happiness, I say live and let live.

The point isn't about who has the majority of the beliefs structure in the country anyway. America has always been about protecting the minority point of view. That is why it is legal in this country to burn the flag if you so choose. While I agree with the principle on that one I also will try by any means personally available to stop you (that is the generic you) from doing so. I still don't want the government stopping it.

Belief in God is a highly personel issue. If we allow religious icons and monuments in state sponsered buildings we start to build a wall between the people who don't accept that religious belief or hold none and the state itself. From there it is a relatively small step to incorporating Christian beliefs into school teachings, having mandatory church attendance (or at the least ostracism of those without the shared beliefs). It isn't hard to imagine a country where people are shunned because they do not go to the "right church". There have already been attacks on Muslim Americans because of the actions of last week. Those people (or roughly 91% of them) believe in your Christian God. Are they to be looked up to? To be held up as examles of what religious power can do?

Things in America are fine the way they are. Keep the religion out of government, it is not only the fair and decent thing to do, it is the law...

I forgive ya, Voo, maybe I took you wrong. I luvs you in the spirit of Sox Fan solidarity.

Obviously, I don't support any of the nasty things being done to Muslims and Arab Americans (in fact, a large minority of those in the latter category from Lebanon, Palestine, and Syria are Christian)and anyone who truly takes Christ's teachings at all seriously isn't running around insulting--and worse--these folks. This is a case where one has to separate out the kooks from the mainstream (as in discussions about the Muslim-ness of the terrorists) and also separate where matters of ethnic and national origin supercede tangential, nominal religious identification.

We've had the discussion about Church/State separation before and I respect your general point of view, but would again assert that the original intent of the Constitution and those who framed the general concept--historically--does not correspond to the strict, "quarantine" approach that has been applied in recent decades by groups like the ACLU and folks like the late Madalyn Murray O'Hare and Chicago area atheist gadfly Rob Sherman. The real target was that no one church would be given state-supported privilege--legally or financially--above any other. I would say here that I agree with that position and certainly think it should extend to Christianity-- generically defined--in its relationship to other non-Christian religions.

However, I think what has caused so much strife is the way that historical practice, traditions, and cultural values of so much of the public has been jettisoned in the name of a recent (post-WWII) secularist jihad against ANY religious outcropping in our public institutions (again there's nothing in the original thought of the framers that would support that spin). You mention that you're against building walls between folks because of religious beliefs--or lack thereof--but I would submit that the "quarantine" approach has been guilty of that exact same thing--and in spades.

I think that for the most part, many people of Christian faith (many--not all) have become sensitive to the injudicious assumption that everyone agrees with them and have become more tolerant of others' views. As food for thought, I'd ask you to consider that perhaps a more judicious approach would be for folks of a secularist viewpoint to perhaps be tolerant of the religious "eccentricities" of their neighbors on such things as creches and menorahs in public squares, posting of the Ten Commandments, etc., etc. Is it good "cultural politics" to be going into some area like X County Alabama (which, for our discussion is 99.5% evangelical Christian and has been thus since its settlement in the 1810s) and insisting that, for instance, the traditional prayer before the Friday night high school game which has been in place for 80-90 years be thrown out the window by force (and I'd emphasize that element of the equation--government proclamations hold that veiled promise--fines, jail, property confiscation, guns--behind all of their actions) by virtue of some judicial fiat (often prescribed by some U.S. Federal Court in some distant city)? I think there are larger questions of local rule, tradition, and cultural preference (these days the latter is often labeled "tolerance" or "sensitivity") which in a very practical sense I think should be taken into account. The RIGHTS of minorities should be protected, definitely. But the question here often boils down to elevating minority sensibilities and preferences in the name of a nitpicking, legalism (which as I pointed out above, is not founded upon the original thrust of the Constitution) which offends the tradition, values, and sensibilities of the majority and does little to foster societal harmony. As I would not go into your home and insist that you say grace before dinner, I'd trust you wouldn't try to keep me from saying grace if you came over to my house for dinner. Being good neighbors means avoiding unnecessary conflict and offense, and it cuts both ways in this question.

By the by, my schedule dictates that I ain't gonna be close to the computer again until tomorrow so don't take a lack of response to a follow-up as ignoring you.

Kilroy
09-19-2001, 03:19 PM
Originally posted by Bmr31


when did i say i was kinder and gentler? I said judge me for today, period. I also did not tell voodoo to shut up. I told him if he was offending people, and didnt like being attacking, maybe he should shut up. would "be quiet" have offended you less?

Put whatever words you want on the "new and supposedly improved BMR" that you think you are. I don't care. But from a lot of people's stances, there's not much difference from 9 months ago to today.

The original point stands. If you didn't have anything to add to the topic, and you didn't, just move along.

Dadawg_77
09-19-2001, 03:19 PM
Originally posted by Bmr31



HUH? I believe that means, if he doesnt want to be attacked for his beliefs, he should keep them off a baseball site. How is that saying he cant believe in what he believes in???????

He was responding to the line "-and if you dont believe in God and Christ then you have no buisness telling others how to live---" and "The ACLU has ruled us long enough" with "Going to be blunt about this, OC... It will be my last reply in this thread because I have no use for people who think theirs is the only true way to live. I am an atheist. I was raised by an atheist. I no more accept your truth than you do mine. What gives someone who does believe in God and Christ the right to tell others how to live?" and "Exactly WHO has the ACLU ruled? This is as bad as people blaming all our problems on religion. The ACLU is a group dedicated to upholding the Bill of Rights and seeing that it is enforced equally across the board."

Comments about his death bed arise from this line, "yeah yeah sure sure--say that on your deathbed that God dont matter to you"

Now he was defening himself form ignorant attacks in this matter. He didn't start, just responded to ignorant statements which he didn't ignore. And the princpal I was talking about was "I will not allow or ignore, ignorant comments." He didn't allow them to pass by ignoring them just challenge the poster who posted them, like you did to his comments with the responces posted below. I didn't say you said he couldn't believe somthing just the fact that you implied that he should let ignorant comments pass while you state you can't and won't.

Bmr31
09-19-2001, 03:21 PM
Originally posted by Kilroy


Put whatever words you want on the "new and supposedly improved BMR" that you think you are. I don't care. But from a lot of people's stances, there's not much difference from 9 months ago to today.

The original point stands. If you didn't have anything to add to the topic, and you didn't, just move along.

I added a lot to this topic. I could care less if you think so or dont think so.

Bmr31
09-19-2001, 03:22 PM
Originally posted by cheeses_h_rice


BMR, sorry, but you really started this whole argument. VC was making a point about "your Christian God" -- which is fine, because there are different interpretations about God/Allah/etc. -- and YOU got all offended and stated that "he" is "everyone's God." I'd beg to differ if I were Hindu, Muslim, etc.

Sounds like you're the one who should be keeping quiet in this whole thread. You're not the only one whose opinion should be taken as gospel -- isn't that what America is all about?

Maybe so. Cheeses, the points you made are understood and real. To those i will apologize. Im sorry.

cheeses_h_rice
09-19-2001, 03:24 PM
Originally posted by Bmr31


I added a lot to this topic. I could care less if you think so or dont think so.

*****. What, exactly, did you add to this topic, BMR, except the fact that you were offended by VC's use of the phrase "your Christian God" and that you could care less if VC believes in God or not?

Please, I'm all ears. Your attitude doesn't seem to have changed one bit since all those arguments about A-Rod's salary half a year ago.

Bmr31
09-19-2001, 03:25 PM
Originally posted by cheeses_h_rice


*****. What, exactly, did you add to this topic, BMR, except the fact that you were offended by VC's use of the phrase "your Christian God" and that you could care less if VC believes in God or not?

Please, I'm all ears. Your attitude doesn't seem to have changed one bit since all those arguments about A-Rod's salary half a year ago.

I guess i added nothing. I already apologized. I got the two threads mixed up.

Kilroy
09-19-2001, 03:25 PM
Originally posted by Bmr31
I added a lot to this topic. I could care less if you think so or dont think so.

You added a lot, alright. A lot of off topic comments...

Kilroy
09-19-2001, 03:34 PM
...but I do have to add, BMR 9 months ago wouldn't have apologized for a damn thing...

Dadawg_77
09-19-2001, 03:36 PM
Originally posted by Procol Harum


I forgive ya, Voo, maybe I took you wrong. I luvs you in the spirit of Sox Fan solidarity.

Obviously, I don't support any of the nasty things being done to Muslims and Arab Americans (in fact, a large minority of those in the latter category from Lebanon, Palestine, and Syria are Christian)and anyone who truly takes Christ's teachings at all seriously isn't running around insulting--and worse--these folks. This is a case where one has to separate out the kooks from the mainstream (as in discussions about the Muslim-ness of the terrorists) and also separate where matters of ethnic and national origin supercede tangential, nominal religious identification.

We've had the discussion about Church/State separation before and I respect your general point of view, but would again assert that the original intent of the Constitution and those who framed the general concept--historically--does not correspond to the strict, "quarantine" approach that has been applied in recent decades by groups like the ACLU and folks like the late Madalyn Murray O'Hare and Chicago area atheist gadfly Rob Sherman. The real target was that no one church would be given state-supported privilege--legally or financially--above any other. I would say here that I agree with that position and certainly think it should extend to Christianity-- generically defined--in its relationship to other non-Christian religions.

However, I think what has caused so much strife is the way that historical practice, traditions, and cultural values of so much of the public has been jettisoned in the name of a recent (post-WWII) secularist jihad against ANY religious outcropping in our public institutions (again there's nothing in the original thought of the framers that would support that spin). You mention that you're against building walls between folks because of religious beliefs--or lack thereof--but I would submit that the "quarantine" approach has been guilty of that exact same thing--and in spades.

I think that for the most part, many people of Christian faith (many--not all) have become sensitive to the injudicious assumption that everyone agrees with them and have become more tolerant of others' views. As food for thought, I'd ask you to consider that perhaps a more judicious approach would be for folks of a secularist viewpoint to perhaps be tolerant of the religious "eccentricities" of their neighbors on such things as creches and menorahs in public squares, posting of the Ten Commandments, etc., etc. Is it good "cultural politics" to be going into some area like X County Alabama (which, for our discussion is 99.5% evangelical Christian and has been thus since its settlement in the 1810s) and insisting that, for instance, the traditional prayer before the Friday night high school game which has been in place for 80-90 years be thrown out the window by force (and I'd emphasize that element of the equation--government proclamations hold that veiled promise--fines, jail, property confiscation, guns--behind all of their actions) by virtue of some judicial fiat (often prescribed by some U.S. Federal Court in some distant city)? I think there are larger questions of local rule, tradition, and cultural preference (these days the latter is often labeled "tolerance" or "sensitivity") which in a very practical sense I think should be taken into account. The RIGHTS of minorities should be protected, definitely. But the question here often boils down to elevating minority sensibilities and preferences in the name of a nitpicking, legalism (which as I pointed out above, is not founded upon the original thrust of the Constitution) which offends the tradition, values, and sensibilities of the majority and does little to foster societal harmony. As I would not go into your home and insist that you say grace before dinner, I'd trust you wouldn't try to keep me from saying grace if you came over to my house for dinner. Being good neighbors means avoiding unnecessary conflict and offense, and it cuts both ways in this question.

By the by, my schedule dictates that I ain't gonna be close to the computer again until tomorrow so don't take a lack of response to a follow-up as ignoring you.

One little hole here, is that Jefferson was the one of the main proponents of the seperation of Church and State. His listed reglion is Deity, basicaly he didn't believe in God but he could state that during his time, no one could. So it would be hard to gather what the framers thought since no one could really express their thoughts on the matter and still be allowed to be at the convention.

There are few question I have about public school prayer, I went to 12 years of Catholic school, and when prayed, well I went along with it or I would of been in trouble. It do anything for me or majority of kids in my class. Ask doublem23 about , I went to high school he goes to now, sorry if you think I dragging you in here but just curious if its the same way.

Also in those polling number before, they asked if prayer was allowed in public school would non-chirstian prayer be alright, over 20% of the people said no to that question. While majority said it would be alright, that 20% number kinda of scares me.

Also I think we may disagree on what is ment by "support." If a public PA system is allowed, or a public ceremony allows time is that support? That is the question I believe the federal court system takes up in these cases. Also I totaly disagree with people who say prayers in schools will solve all our problems in schools. honestly, it won't, it won't even come close to it. What we need to solve schools problems in strong families, I don't mean you need to have both parents, but families where the income bringer has good paying job and the parent(s) has the time and is willing to spend the effort with helping their kids. Also more money should be spent on improving schools, hiring more and better teachers, raising teacher pay that would attract better people for the job. Those steps are harder then just saying let the kids prayer, but would return a bigger bang for the buck.

cheeses_h_rice
09-19-2001, 03:42 PM
Originally posted by Bmr31


I guess i added nothing. I already apologized. I got the two threads mixed up.

Apology accepted. Thanks for clearing up my confusion.

Bmr31
09-19-2001, 03:47 PM
Originally posted by Kilroy
...but I do have to add, BMR 9 months ago wouldn't have apologized for a damn thing...


Not true. I apologized and admitted i was wrong a few times. Maybe several times.

oldcomiskey
09-19-2001, 03:55 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile


They started it... You might follow your own advice on this one...

This was a perfectly normal religious debate about the place of religion in Government until you decided to work your BMR magic on it... Well done...
No actually it was not--it was apost bgy a patriot at heart who said we have to get back to the basics--My aplogies to those i offended but thats what I believe--and if you dont you can suck turds in pergatory all you want too -----

Randar68
09-19-2001, 03:56 PM
Originally posted by oldcomiskey

--and if you dont you can suck turds in pergatory all you want too -----










bla!

oldcomiskey
09-19-2001, 03:57 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77


One little hole here, is that Jefferson was the one of the main proponents of the seperation of Church and State. His listed reglion is Deity, basicaly he didn't believe in God but he could state that during his time, no one could. So it would be hard to gather what the framers thought since no one could really express their thoughts on the matter and still be allowed to be at the convention.

There are few question I have about public school prayer, I went to 12 years of Catholic school, and when prayed, well I went along with it or I would of been in trouble. It do anything for me or majority of kids in my class. Ask doublem23 about , I went to high school he goes to now, sorry if you think I dragging you in here but just curious if its the same way.

Also in those polling number before, they asked if prayer was allowed in public school would non-chirstian prayer be alright, over 20% of the people said no to that question. While majority said it would be alright, that 20% number kinda of scares me.

Also I think we may disagree on what is ment by "support." If a public PA system is allowed, or a public ceremony allows time is that support? That is the question I believe the federal court system takes up in these cases. Also I totaly disagree with people who say prayers in schools will solve all our problems in schools. honestly, it won't, it won't even come close to it. What we need to solve schools problems in strong families, I don't mean you need to have both parents, but families where the income bringer has good paying job and the parent(s) has the time and is willing to spend the effort with helping their kids. Also more money should be spent on improving schools, hiring more and better teachers, raising teacher pay that would attract better people for the job. Those steps are harder then just saying let the kids prayer, but would return a bigger bang for the buck.

I agree with this 100 percent----this kind of thing starts with ones upbringing

Bmr31
09-19-2001, 03:57 PM
Originally posted by oldcomiskey

No actually it was not--it was apost bgy a patriot at heart who said we have to get back to the basics--My aplogies to those i offended but thats what I believe--and if you dont you can suck turds in pergatory all you want too -----


LOL, YOU GO OC!! :)

voodoochile
09-19-2001, 05:06 PM
Originally posted by oldcomiskey

No actually it was not--it was apost bgy a patriot at heart who said we have to get back to the basics--My aplogies to those i offended but thats what I believe--and if you dont you can suck turds in pergatory all you want too -----

LMAO!!! Now that is a comeback... Sorry, should have said that is what the thread turned into... I don't agree with the idea that more religion in America is a good thing... sorry. And I do support the ACLU. Remember, they have supported people who are as far from the "liberal viewpoint" as anybody also... I don't have specific examples, but know they have backed specific examples of "hate speech" when done on private land (this is an example only) They defend people's right to practice their version of religion too...

Procul, you have a good point about local institutions, and though I am unfamiliar with the example you site, I do agree that it seems heavy handed. That is strictly looking at it from a cursory point of view. I cannot say that what was done was correct or incorrect without deeper knowledge of the case. Was someone in particular offended (parent, child, etc) by the pregame prayer or meant to feel excluded because they did not believe in God? Was someone being ostracized? Was religious power being brought to bear? When I was very young we lived in Savannah, Georgia. My father was one of the people who forced the local school board to discontinue the prayers in school because my sisters (8 and 10 years older than me) were being forced to participate and were being punished if they did not comply. That is a powerful form of persuasion to use on 10-12 year old kids. Join us or be punished... This lesson carries over whenever a muslim Mom brings her child into the courthouse where that judge posted the 10 commandments. What message is being sent to that child?

In either case... There are no clear answers, so the best answer is probably to remove all doubt. Can't be sure no one is offended? Just don't do it... That way everyone can do their thing in their own way and not worry about the consequences. For Example what was stopping that small Christian town from meeting outside the stadium and having their pregame prayer then, or asking for a moment of silence before each and everygame so people may think about the players and the coaches who have put so much time in? These are examples only, and just off the top of my head. There are solutions that offend no one and still accomplish the aim of those that desire to be spiritually active...

There aren't any easy answers, and certainly someone will always be upset, no matter which way it swings...

Oh well... Guess (once again) we will have to agree to disagree...

-Voodoo(the turd sucking Atheist)Chile

Bmr31
09-19-2001, 06:05 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile


LMAO!!! Now that is a comeback... Sorry, should have said that is what the thread turned into... I don't agree with the idea that more religion in America is a good thing... sorry. And I do support the ACLU. Remember, they have supported people who are as far from the "liberal viewpoint" as anybody also... I don't have specific examples, but know they have backed specific examples of "hate speech" when done on private land (this is an example only) They defend people's right to practice their version of religion too...

Procul, you have a good point about local institutions, and though I am unfamiliar with the example you site, I do agree that it seems heavy handed. That is strictly looking at it from a cursory point of view. I cannot say that what was done was correct or incorrect without deeper knowledge of the case. Was someone in particular offended (parent, child, etc) by the pregame prayer or meant to feel excluded because they did not believe in God? Was someone being ostracized? Was religious power being brought to bear? When I was very young we lived in Savannah, Georgia. My father was one of the people who forced the local school board to discontinue the prayers in school because my sisters (8 and 10 years older than me) were being forced to participate and were being punished if they did not comply. That is a powerful form of persuasion to use on 10-12 year old kids. Join us or be punished... This lesson carries over whenever a muslim Mom brings her child into the courthouse where that judge posted the 10 commandments. What message is being sent to that child?

In either case... There are no clear answers, so the best answer is probably to remove all doubt. Can't be sure no one is offended? Just don't do it... That way everyone can do their thing in their own way and not worry about the consequences. For Example what was stopping that small Christian town from meeting outside the stadium and having their pregame prayer then, or asking for a moment of silence before each and everygame so people may think about the players and the coaches who have put so much time in? These are examples only, and just off the top of my head. There are solutions that offend no one and still accomplish the aim of those that desire to be spiritually active...

There aren't any easy answers, and certainly someone will always be upset, no matter which way it swings...

Oh well... Guess (once again) we will have to agree to disagree...

-Voodoo(the turd sucking Atheist)Chile