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lowesox
05-26-2004, 09:22 PM
In my mind it's easily Miguel Olivo. How good is this guy? Hitting around .270 with decent power and speed and killer defense. And yet, nobody ever talks about him!!! The part I love the most, is that you can tell he's going to get better every year. I think he could be a real star one day.

SoxBoy14
05-26-2004, 09:25 PM
Originally posted by lowesox
In my mind it's easily Miguel Olivo. How good is this guy? Hitting around .270 with decent power and speed and killer defense. And yet, nobody ever talks about him!!! The part I love the most, is that you can tell he's going to get better every year. I think he could be a real star one day.

I agree Olivio's tough and can throw out the runner at second better than anyone. He also has good hitting and can get the runner in. Not to mention he goes deep off the flubb pitchers everytime he plays them.

nychisox
05-26-2004, 09:26 PM
agreed....olivo is one of the best young catchers in the league

Vsahajpal
05-26-2004, 09:34 PM
#35

SoxFan76
05-26-2004, 09:43 PM
Originally posted by Vsahajpal
#35

But he's such a loser, he hasn't done anything for this team, or this city. He is just a big crybaby and a jerk. Now that Sammy Sosa....

It's sad but true, Frank gets no respect. It's a shame, because that man is the best hitter to come through Chicago in a LOOOOOOOOONG time.

Dadawg_77
05-26-2004, 09:45 PM
Originally posted by Vsahajpal
#35

Ditto, greatest player to wear the White Sox jersey ever.

Clembasbal
05-26-2004, 09:47 PM
Olivois good, but not great. He has an arm, but he throws wildly, he and Sandy have only thrown out like 2 out of 35 base stealers...and I don't care is more than half is Sandy's fault, there is still a lot of guys he doesn't get out....and errors, my god! He throws the ball away alot.

He has a bat and he has speed, but it will be a long time before another "Officer Karko" gets behind the plate again.

Bucktown
05-26-2004, 09:52 PM
Jose Valentin is the most underrated player. Consider the whole package: offense and defense.

Hondo
05-26-2004, 09:55 PM
Originally posted by lowesox
In my mind it's easily Miguel Olivo. How good is this guy? Hitting around .270 with decent power and speed and killer defense. And yet, nobody ever talks about him!!! The part I love the most, is that you can tell he's going to get better every year. I think he could be a real star one day.


But we had to trade Bradford for him

I think this team is full of guys who are undervalued nationally.
Uribe comes to mind in the sense he's getting no love for being a first half surprise.

But Frank is a good choice too. I don't care what Boston Peter or Kirkijuan say, he's a HOF'er

lowesox
05-26-2004, 09:57 PM
Originally posted by Bucktown
Jose Valentin is the most underrated player. Consider the whole package: offense and defense.

... the offense... the defense... the 7 straight strikeouts.

Sorry but I think Valentin is actually the most overrated player on the team. He makes too much money - and is considered a great offensive player just because he hits well for power. We're a better team with Uribe at short - who also deserves consideration for this particular thread.

lowesox
05-26-2004, 10:00 PM
Actually, let's expand this thread to who is your most overrated and underrated player on the Whitesox. Mine are:

Under: Olivo
OVer: Valentin

Honourable mention for under: Shoenweiss, Thomas, Konerko

jeremyb1
05-26-2004, 10:07 PM
Originally posted by lowesox
... the offense... the defense... the 7 straight strikeouts.

Sorry but I think Valentin is actually the most overrated player on the team. He makes too much money - and is considered a great offensive player just because he hits well for power. We're a better team with Uribe at short - who also deserves consideration for this particular thread.

By whom? There are about four posters out of quite a few on this board that believe he shouldn't be benched (or at least that Willie Harris is not a better player). His defense is underrated because people fixate only on errors which make up a very small part of overall defense. His offense is underrated because people can't accept a player that can't hit lefties even though guys like Chavez and Blalock don't do it very well either and because people for whatever reason place too much emphasis on K's. If Valentin is overrated someone has to like him right? It doesn't seem like there are many of us.

Edit: By the way, this is now about the 18th thread currently debating the merits of Jose Valentin.

mdep524
05-26-2004, 10:13 PM
Most overrated:
1. Paul Konerko- Has a ridiculous amount of weaknesses- no speed, doesn't use right field, mental midget, insanely long slumps, double plays up the wazoo, $8 mil salary.
2. Billy Koch- despite all the flack he gets on here, he is STILL overrated in my mind

Most underrated:
1. Juan Uribe- can go to right field, the most underrated and least used skill by Sox hitters
2. Ken Williams- agressive GM seeking to build a winner has assembled a solid line up after a few rookie mistakes (Konerko, Koch, Ritchie).

mdep524
05-26-2004, 10:14 PM
Originally posted by lowesox
Actually, let's expand this thread to who is your most overrated and underrated player on the Whitesox. Mine are:

Under: Olivo
OVer: Valentin

Honourable mention for under: Shoenweiss, Thomas, Konerko

PS: There is no way on God's green Earth Paul Konerko deserves even an honorable mention for underrated.

lowesox
05-26-2004, 10:21 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
By whom? There are about four posters out of quite a few on this board that believe he shouldn't be benched (or at least that Willie Harris is not a better player). His defense is underrated because people fixate only on errors which make up a very small part of overall defense. His offense is underrated because people can't accept a player that can't hit lefties even though guys like Chavez and Blalock don't do it very well either and because people for whatever reason place too much emphasis on K's. If Valentin is overrated someone has to like him right? It doesn't seem like there are many of us.

Edit: By the way, this is now about the 18th thread currently debating the merits of Jose Valentin.

Maybe I've got the wrong impression but it seems to me that most WSIers like Valentin. In fact, wasn't there a 'extend Valentin's contract' thread yesterday?

For the record, I'm not a big stat guy, but it seems there's a lot people who think some stats are too basic for evaluating players, Personally though, I don't buy it. I think error totals and strikeouts say a lot about a player.

the_valenstache
05-26-2004, 10:22 PM
Originally posted by Bucktown
Jose Valentin is the most underrated player. Consider the whole package: offense and defense.

I may be new here, but I think there's a need for some serious teal in the above sentence.

lowesox
05-26-2004, 10:24 PM
Originally posted by the_valenstache
I may be new here, but I think there's a need for some serious teal in the above sentence.

On a separate note, the_valenstache is the most under rated screen name on WSI.

Bucktown
05-26-2004, 10:43 PM
Originally posted by the_valenstache
I may be new here, but I think there's a need for some serious teal in the above sentence.
I don't believe in teal. If you tell someone you are being sarcastic then it isn't sarcsam. Sure, that means it will go over some people's head, but that is the great thing about sarcasm. Only a few witty people get it.

ode to veeck
05-26-2004, 10:56 PM
In a season so far full of pleasant surprises (and its gettin darn close to June!) , Ozzie's the biggest one for me, I was really dissapointed we picked an inexperienced mgr, but he's made me a believer already.

MRKARNO
05-26-2004, 11:02 PM
Thomas is easily the most underrated player on the team. The fact that the Sox considered letting frank go if he didnt pick up his option just shows how underrated he is. He consistantly posts an awesome OBP, 40 homers often, really high OPS. He is what makes this team run. Without him, we aren't as good. Without Magglio, we can manage.

elrod
05-26-2004, 11:16 PM
Underrated? How about Rowand? His throw to the plate tonight was perfect. He does plenty well out in CF - I don't want to hear about bad routes because he usually gets to the ball. And now he's starting to hit. Face it, nobody has any respect for him. Not nationally, not locally, and not among Sox fans. But he's done well anyway.

Voice of Reason
05-26-2004, 11:21 PM
Jose Valentin is definitely the most underrated Sox player. He outhits most of the shortstops in baseball for the last three years and Sox fans want to dump him because Uribe has been good for a month and a half.

MRKARNO
05-26-2004, 11:22 PM
Originally posted by elrod
Underrated? How about Rowand? His throw to the plate tonight was perfect. He does plenty well out in CF - I don't want to hear about bad routes because he usually gets to the ball. And now he's starting to hit. Face it, nobody has any respect for him. Not nationally, not locally, and not among Sox fans. But he's done well anyway.

He's a good platoon hitter vs lefties. He's strong but he cant hit righties well. He has a strong arm, but his throws are off target more often than not. He makes a lot of real good plays in the outfield...and a bit more than his fair share of bad plays. He's not a good regular by any means, but he can be a good role player at times.

Randar68
05-27-2004, 12:25 AM
Originally posted by Clembasbal
Olivois good, but not great. He has an arm, but he throws wildly, he and Sandy have only thrown out like 2 out of 35 base stealers...

yeah, Shoe, ELo, garland and every #5 not holding the runners on has NOTHING to do with that, does it?

Randar68
05-27-2004, 12:27 AM
Originally posted by MRKARNO
He's a good platoon hitter vs lefties. He's strong but he cant hit righties well. He has a strong arm, but his throws are off target more often than not. He makes a lot of real good plays in the outfield...and a bit more than his fair share of bad plays. He's not a good regular by any means, but he can be a good role player at times.

Amen. Nobody in their right mind could call ANY 4th OF'er "under-rated"

doublem23
05-27-2004, 12:31 AM
If you're talking nationally, I'd say Maggs is still rather underrated. He puts up solid numbers but he's still can probably walk through anywhere and not get noticed.

OEO Magglio
05-27-2004, 12:34 AM
Originally posted by MRKARNO
He's a good platoon hitter vs lefties. He's strong but he cant hit righties well. He has a strong arm, but his throws are off target more often than not. He makes a lot of real good plays in the outfield...and a bit more than his fair share of bad plays. He's not a good regular by any means, but he can be a good role player at times.
Perfectly said. For most underrated player sox, I'll take this route most underrated player for the sox this year that sox fans appreciate the least is none other then Billy Koch. I'm ready to get grilled for that but there is so many people on here who continue to say he sucks but he's done his job.

Randar68
05-27-2004, 12:34 AM
Originally posted by MRKARNO
He's a good platoon hitter vs lefties. He's strong but he cant hit righties well. He has a strong arm, but his throws are off target more often than not. He makes a lot of real good plays in the outfield...and a bit more than his fair share of bad plays. He's not a good regular by any means, but he can be a good role player at times.

well said.

Vsahajpal
05-27-2004, 12:41 AM
Originally posted by doublem23
If you're talking nationally, I'd say Maggs is still rather underrated. He puts up solid numbers but he's still can probably walk through anywhere and not get noticed.

He may be rather underrated, I don't know. But Frank Thomas takes the cake, nationally, locally, internationally, universally, galactically, nautically, whatever....ly

He's the bomb, and people sleep on him.

Randar68
05-27-2004, 12:45 AM
Originally posted by Vsahajpal
He may be rather underrated, I don't know. But Frank Thomas takes the cake, nationally, locally, internationally, universally, galactically, nautically, whatever....ly

He's the bomb, and people sleep on him.

yep. He's put up a handful of some of the best offensive non-Bonds seasons in the history of baseball, prior to the live-ball, steroid, small-park transition in the mid-late 90's ...

The strike-shortened season might be the BEST non-Bonds offensive season in the modern era, yet people are more enamored with what he says to the media and how it's portrayed in the media...

JRIG
05-27-2004, 12:46 AM
I'll point this out, though I know it will do little good with some here...

Jose Valentin, the guy who is brutal and must go , is currently 3rd in the AL in OPS among shortstops with more than 100 at bats and 6th in all of baseball.

stockonline2
05-27-2004, 01:40 AM
:kmarte

A rough start and he's forgotten.
He'll settle down to be a great reliever for the Sox once again.

ND_Sox_Fan
05-27-2004, 09:34 AM
I think the other thread that explains where Frank stands against other first basemen in the AL says it all.... He is still the best...

Bobby Thigpen
05-27-2004, 09:52 AM
Shingo. Without a doubt the Sox' most reliable reliever.

34 Inch Stick
05-27-2004, 09:54 AM
While Frank Thomas is underrated, we have a guy hitting .340 who is not a set in stone every day starter. Uribe is underrated by his own manager.

idseer
05-27-2004, 10:06 AM
konerko - underrated
harris - underrated
valentin - overrated
crede - overrated
uribe - underrated
thomas - overrated
magglio - overrated
rowand - underrated
lee - overrated
olivo - underrated
alomar - underrated
gload - underrated
buehrle - overrated
loaiza - overrated
garland - overrated
schoeneweis - underated
koch - overrated
marte - overrated
takatsu - underrated
adkins - underrated
cotts - overrated
wunsch - underrated
politte - overrated

i base this on the feeling of posters on this board, not on actual ability.
for example ...
loaiza is overrated because most here love what he did last year and now think he's one of the best pitchers in the league. he'll still be lucky to win 15. and THAT is with a powerful lineup behind him.
konerko is underrated because most here hate what he did last year and think he's the worst player on the team. clearly he is not.

and the one i catch the most grief about ..
thomas is overrated because he will NEVER live up to the abilities most here continue to attribute to him.

34 Inch Stick
05-27-2004, 11:11 AM
Originally posted by idseer
...
loaiza is overrated because most here love what he did last year and now think he's one of the best pitchers in the league. he'll still be lucky to win 15. and THAT is with a powerful lineup behind him.
[/B]

6 wins through 45 games translates to almost 22 wins for the season. I hope you are a liberal arts major.

idseer
05-27-2004, 11:16 AM
Originally posted by 34 Inch Stick
6 wins through 45 games translates to almost 22 wins for the season. I hope you are a liberal arts major.

on the one hand i hope you're right.
but loaiza doesn't get stronger as the season progresses. i doubt he'll keep it up. just my opinion.

MisterB
05-27-2004, 12:09 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
yep. He's put up a handful of some of the best offensive non-Bonds seasons in the history of baseball, prior to the live-ball, steroid, small-park transition in the mid-late 90's ...

The strike-shortened season might be the BEST non-Bonds offensive season in the modern era, yet people are more enamored with what he says to the media and how it's portrayed in the media...

What might have been...Thomas had appeared in all 113 Sox games that year (99 at 1B), and had he gone a full 162 his numbers would have been some thing like this:

.353/.486/.724, 151 runs, 48 doubles, 54 homers, 144 rbi, 156 walks. His Slugging% could have been the highest since Ted Williams in '57. Sigh. :(:

lowesox
05-27-2004, 12:32 PM
Originally posted by idseer
thomas - overrated
magglio - overrated
lee - overrated


In the same post you said that we have a strong offense and that Lee, ORdonez and Thomas were all overrated. Take those guys out of our lineup and it's not going to be so strong.

idseer
05-27-2004, 12:38 PM
Originally posted by lowesox
In the same post you said that we have a strong offense and that Lee, ORdonez and Thomas were all overrated. Take those guys out of our lineup and it's not going to be so strong.

take them out of the lineup and we'd only have 6 batters too. :smile:

you DO understand the terms overrated and underrated don't you? :?:

what i'm saying has nothing to do with their abilities or numbers.
it means they aren't as good as most wsi'ers think they are.

sas1974
05-27-2004, 12:40 PM
Big Frank: Underrated and Under Appreciated

idseer
05-27-2004, 12:52 PM
Originally posted by MisterB
What might have been...Thomas had appeared in all 113 Sox games that year (99 at 1B), and had he gone a full 162 his numbers would have been some thing like this:

.353/.486/.724, 151 runs, 48 doubles, 54 homers, 144 rbi, 156 walks. His Slugging% could have been the highest since Ted Williams in '57. Sigh. :(:

i may be getting off topic here but, i always thought the most impressive season statistic cut short by a strike was tim raines having 71 stolen bases in 88 games in '83. he never again approached that kind of average.

ChiSoxBobette
05-27-2004, 01:24 PM
Originally posted by Vsahajpal
#35


The Big Hurt Baby! You Know It!

illiniwhitesox
05-27-2004, 01:34 PM
Back to the origninal post for me. I hope, more than anyone, that Miguel continues to develop.

I care more about the defensive aspect than offensive area when it comes to catchers. In this vein -

Everyone wants a catcher that always keeps you in a double-play setup. Where runners stay put, similar to when teams face Pudge in Detroit, and are forced to play station-to-station baseball.

Everyone also wants a catcher that knows the game inside and out, scouts opposing players and knows how to call a game.

Finally, everyone wants a catcher who can physically handle the burden of the position as it is the toughest job in baseball.

Miguel can be this guy, but he still needs to work hard and improve. I loved the way he blocked the plate yesterday. It sends a message to the rest of the team. White Sox players know that he's a guy that will give it up to win a game. You have to respect that and actions like that speak louder than words.