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View Full Version : Williams Deserves Credit For Not Signing Alomar


joecrede
05-25-2004, 12:34 PM
All the angst expressed on this board over the departure of the great Robbie Alomar and you know what, the Sox are just fine in the middle infield.

Kudos to Williams.

Palehose13
05-25-2004, 12:35 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
All the angst expressed on this board over the departure of the great Robbie Alomar and you know what, the Sox are just fine in the middle infield.

Kudos to Williams.
But he WANTED to sign him, so I am going to complain anyway!

poorme
05-25-2004, 12:40 PM
He TRADED for him so I'm going to complain anyway!

Brian26
05-25-2004, 01:04 PM
Alomar's done. Stick a fork in him.

MRKARNO
05-25-2004, 01:04 PM
Originally posted by poorme
He TRADED for him so I'm going to complain anyway!

While not a result of Alomar leaving, we'll have an extra 4 picks in the first two rounds this year which should more than restock the farm system (at the lower levels at least) from the "damage" done by the Alomar and Everett deals.

jabrch
05-25-2004, 01:06 PM
Another good move by KW in not caving into Alomar's demand for 2 years and more money? or is he just lucky still?

iwannago
05-25-2004, 01:09 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
Another good move by KW in not caving into Alomar's demand for 2 years and more money? or is he just lucky still?

I think luck might have something to do with it.

pinwheels3530
05-25-2004, 02:04 PM
Give KW some credit, I remeber a lot of JERRY SPRINGER SOX FANS at sox fest giving KW a hard time for not signing Alomar, bringing Uribe, putting Shoey in the starting rotation etc..complain if you want, but everybody who ripped Kenny was WRONG!!!

joecrede
05-25-2004, 02:07 PM
Originally posted by pinwheels3530
Give KW some credit, I remeber a lot of JERRY SPRINGER SOX FANS at sox fest giving KW a hard time for not signing Alomar, bringing Uribe, putting Shoey in the starting rotation etc..complain if you want, but everybody who ripped Kenny was WRONG!!!

Yep those SoxFest fans are looking as wrong as I've been about Takatsu at the moment.

JRIG
05-25-2004, 02:17 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
Yep those SoxFest fans are looking as wrong as I've been about Takatsu at the moment.

Or as wrong as I was about the bench being a huge weakness. Again, at the moment.

But I don't think we should heap praise upon KW just because a guy he really wanted to sign asked for too much money. After all, judging by the way he was playing in Arizona, Alomar back at any price this year would have been a disaster.

SEALgep
05-25-2004, 02:21 PM
Originally posted by JRIG
Or as wrong as I was about the bench being a huge weakness. Again, at the moment.

But I don't think we should heap praise upon KW just because a guy he really wanted to sign asked for too much money. After all, judging by the way he was playing in Arizona, Alomar back at any price this year would have been a disaster. He didn't really want him. He was considered a good veteran to have, but he was more than willing to let Willie start if it turned out, well the way it did.

Dadawg_77
05-25-2004, 02:25 PM
Ok, I will give credit to Kenny for this one.

MRKARNO
05-25-2004, 02:32 PM
Even after seeing Alomar last year and Willie last year you had to know that there was no way that Willie was going to hit .200 again. He's done too well in the minors to do that consistantly. Alomar could hardly hit .250 last year with no power and few walks, so why give him even a million dollars?

Iwritecode
05-25-2004, 02:50 PM
Originally posted by pinwheels3530
Give KW some credit, I remeber a lot of JERRY SPRINGER SOX FANS at sox fest giving KW a hard time for not signing Alomar, bringing Uribe, putting Shoey in the starting rotation etc..complain if you want, but everybody who ripped Kenny was WRONG!!!

Actually, I thought one of the big complaints was not bringing Colon back. He's still looking for someone to fill that spot...

Paulwny
05-25-2004, 03:26 PM
I'll give KW more credit for dumping D'Angelo Jimenez. Don't hear much from his fans now that he's hitting ~ .225.

JRIG
05-25-2004, 03:28 PM
Originally posted by Paulwny
I'll give KW more credit for dumping D'Angelo Jimenez. Don't hear much from his fans now that he's hitting ~ .225.

Actually, here's an article on how he's still helping the Reds:

http://reds.enquirer.com/2004/05/25/Doc0525.html

jabrch
05-25-2004, 03:35 PM
Originally posted by JRIG
Actually, here's an article on how he's still helping the Reds:

http://reds.enquirer.com/2004/05/25/Doc0525.html

I'd happily take Harris or Uribe over Jimenez, 7 days a week.

doublem23
05-25-2004, 03:38 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
Another good move by KW in not caving into Alomar's demand for 2 years and more money? or is he just lucky still?

Considering we were starting a guy who had a career .200 average at second, yeah, he got really lucky. If you honestly believed Harris would be this good this fast, then let me know what the lottery numbers will be for tonight.

I'll admit Kenny has made some good moves, and I'll admit that not signing Alomar was a good move, but penciling in Willie Harris as your Opening Day starter was not a good move but we got lucky. Things just as easily could have panned out the other way.

MRKARNO
05-25-2004, 03:44 PM
Originally posted by doublem23
Considering we were starting a guy who had a career .200 average at second, yeah, he got really lucky. If you honestly believed Harris would be this good this fast, then let me know what the lottery numbers will be for tonight.

I'll admit Kenny has made some good moves, and I'll admit that not signing Alomar was a good move, but penciling in Willie Harris as your Opening Day starter was not a good move but we got lucky. Things just as easily could have panned out the other way.

Maybe KW really does have a special eye for talent? I'm beginning to wonder. Uribe, Schoeneweis, Harris, Olivo..... Where would we be this year without these four, all of whom KW deserves credit for?

soxtalker
05-25-2004, 03:46 PM
Originally posted by JRIG
Actually, here's an article on how he's still helping the Reds:

http://reds.enquirer.com/2004/05/25/Doc0525.html

Well, it is nice to see that he's helping the Reds -- and himself -- since he's worn out his welcome at several teams already. I appreciate his ability to use up pitchers, though I don't remember that talent in his White Sox stay. I think that we'd still be unhappy with him if we had him. The batting average is still low. Also, I wonder if he's still making those maddening mental errors.

doublem23
05-25-2004, 03:47 PM
Originally posted by MRKARNO
Maybe KW really does have a special eye for talent? I'm beginning to wonder. Uribe, Schoeneweis, Harris, Olivo..... Where would we be this year without these four, all of whom KW deserves credit for?

Uribe was a steal, no question about it. I still think Williams is really good with minor league talent (He did get Harris for Singleton a few years ago... STEAL). He's just not very good at dealing for established, MLB talent. Remember, before he was GM he was in charge of the minor leagues and we had a stocked farm system a few years back.

If you want to talk about all the good moves KW has made, you can't overlook the boners he's pulled. Koch for Foulke? :angry: Todd Ritchie? :angry:

Frater Perdurabo
05-25-2004, 03:51 PM
Not signing Alomar was a good move. Let's hope Harris and Uribe continue to produce.

Randar68
05-25-2004, 04:08 PM
Originally posted by MRKARNO
Maybe KW really does have a special eye for talent? I'm beginning to wonder. Uribe, Schoeneweis, Harris, Olivo..... Where would we be this year without these four, all of whom KW deserves credit for?

That's the thing. KW is a million times closer to these players and his scouts that have often times extensively studied these guys. He made his way up the ladder by being a good judge of talent, so the people that still think it's luck haven't been paying attention.

Harris produced at every minor league stop and always improved the longer he was at a stop. Because most here can only ever base their opinions of players on short sporadic stints with the MLB club or spot-duty, it's impossible for fans to say that KW just got lucky because player A didn't produce in a short period in the majors.

KW has had the most difficulty in adjusting to the FA and contract part of the job. It was somehting he had no real experience with when he took over and mistakes are inevitable. In addition, EVERY GM falls into that trap, particularly when dealing with players you already have. I'll readily admit that.

doublem23
05-25-2004, 04:15 PM
There's still an element of luck to it. Harris had looked completely overmatched when he was in the bigs prior to this year. I don't think anyone could have expected him to produce like this so fast.

Though, I think more of KW not bringing anyone in this off-season had more to do with whose fingers control the pursestrings around here.

pinwheels3530
05-25-2004, 04:56 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
That's the thing. KW is a million times closer to these players and his scouts that have often times extensively studied these guys. He made his way up the ladder by being a good judge of talent, so the people that still think it's luck haven't been paying attention.

Harris produced at every minor league stop and always improved the longer he was at a stop. Because most here can only ever base their opinions of players on short sporadic stints with the MLB club or spot-duty, it's impossible for fans to say that KW just got lucky because player A didn't produce in a short period in the majors.

KW has had the most difficulty in adjusting to the FA and contract part of the job. It was somehting he had no real experience with when he took over and mistakes are inevitable. In addition, EVERY GM falls into that trap, particularly when dealing with players you already have. I'll readily admit that.


Good post, everyone here thinks they can be a GM.

pinwheels3530
05-25-2004, 04:57 PM
Originally posted by doublem23
There's still an element of luck to it. Harris had looked completely overmatched when he was in the bigs prior to this year. I don't think anyone could have expected him to produce like this so fast.

Though, I think more of KW not bringing anyone in this off-season had more to do with whose fingers control the pursestrings around here.

Still can't give him credit typical sox fan.

batmanZoSo
05-25-2004, 04:59 PM
KW got lucky with Harris and Uribe turning out good and Alomar sucking in depressing Arizona. Haven't you guys learned anything about him? He's never had a good year on a bad team. But he always has good years on good teams.

OEO Magglio
05-25-2004, 05:04 PM
Originally posted by doublem23
Uribe was a steal, no question about it. I still think Williams is really good with minor league talent (He did get Harris for Singleton a few years ago... STEAL). He's just not very good at dealing for established, MLB talent. Remember, before he was GM he was in charge of the minor leagues and we had a stocked farm system a few years back.

If you want to talk about all the good moves KW has made, you can't overlook the boners he's pulled. Koch for Foulke? :angry: Todd Ritchie? :angry:
The Ritchie deal was awful no denying that. The foulke trade was bad for a year but Foulke need to be trade Manuel lost all confidence in him as a closer. The foulke trade hurt the sox for one year, they would have never resigned him and right now Koch is doing a good job as the closer and another helpful arm in the bullpen this year in Cotts and probably a future productive major league starter.

hold2dibber
05-25-2004, 05:11 PM
So, if I understand correctly, KW is "lucky" when someone he targets and acquires turns out to be good (e.g., Loaiza, Harris, Uribe) but he "sucks" and should have known better when someone he targets and acquires turns out to be bad (e.g., Ritchie, D. Wells, Koch). Such a double standard. The GM's primary job is to evaluate (with the help of his staff) talent and acquire the talent to win based on that evaluation. How can anyone suggest he's "lucky" when someone he acquired, presumably because he believed that person could be a productive major league player, turns out in fact to be a productive major league player. That's not luck - that's his plan coming to fruition. Similarly, if someone he acquires turns out to be a bust (e.g., Ritchie), that's not bad luck - he mis-judged the player's likely contribution. You judge a GM by the quality of the players he brings in - whether or not he is "lucky" or "unlucky" is both impossible to determine and entirely irrelevant. (The only exception I can think of is when a GM acquires a player who gets injured despite having no particular risk factors or indications of being prone to injury.)

batmanZoSo
05-25-2004, 06:03 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
So, if I understand correctly, KW is "lucky" when someone he targets and acquires turns out to be good (e.g., Loaiza, Harris, Uribe) but he "sucks" and should have known better when someone he targets and acquires turns out to be bad (e.g., Ritchie, D. Wells, Koch). Such a double standard. The GM's primary job is to evaluate (with the help of his staff) talent and acquire the talent to win based on that evaluation. How can anyone suggest he's "lucky" when someone he acquired, presumably because he believed that person could be a productive major league player, turns out in fact to be a productive major league player. That's not luck - that's his plan coming to fruition. Similarly, if someone he acquires turns out to be a bust (e.g., Ritchie), that's not bad luck - he mis-judged the player's likely contribution. You judge a GM by the quality of the players he brings in - whether or not he is "lucky" or "unlucky" is both impossible to determine and entirely irrelevant. (The only exception I can think of is when a GM acquires a player who gets injured despite having no particular risk factors or indications of being prone to injury.)

Okay, are you gonna give him props for not keeping Everett and leaving us with nothing in center? And by letting Colon go, which I agree with, but not replacing him?

We came into the year with only 2 dependable starters, no closer, no center fielder, a big question mark at second. I'm not giving anybody "props" for that. Most of those holes still remain.

Randar68
05-25-2004, 06:07 PM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo
Okay, are you gonna give him props for not keeping Everett and leaving us with nothing in center? And by letting Colon go, which I agree with, but not replacing him?

We came into the year with only 2 dependable starters, no closer, no center fielder, a big question mark at second. I'm not giving anybody "props" for that. Most of those holes still remain.

He swapped Gordon for Politte plus 2 draft picks. Oh yeah, Politte is half the cost as well (although admittedly not as good, but a better bet health-wise).

Kenny could not sign Carl until just recently because they did not offer him arbitration. And please don't tell me you wanted Carl in CF for a whole year. SCARY!

hold2dibber
05-25-2004, 06:13 PM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo
Okay, are you gonna give him props for not keeping Everett and leaving us with nothing in center? And by letting Colon go, which I agree with, but not replacing him?

We came into the year with only 2 dependable starters, no closer, no center fielder, a big question mark at second. I'm not giving anybody "props" for that. Most of those holes still remain.

Frankly, it's too early to tell. I agree that this team had a lot of holes and question marks (in my mind) coming into the season - including all those you've identified. But if Harris turns out to be a solid lead off hitter (as he has been so far), Schoenweiss continues to be an above average starter, Koch bounces back to have a big year, and Rowand/Timo/Borchard/Reed are good enough in CF - than hell yeah I'll give KW props (as should everyone else) because he believed that those guys were good enough to get the job done. If they do in fact get the job done, even if you and I and everyone else questioned them at the start of the year, than KW deserves credit for believing in those guys and having them prove him right.

We (the fans) said at the start of the year "Harris isn't good enough; we need a new 2B/lead-off hitter." KW's response was "Harris will get the job done." If Harris gets the job done, it strikes me as awfully self-serving and disingenuous to then say "KW just got lucky" instead of saying "KW was right and we were wrong."

OEO Magglio
05-25-2004, 06:22 PM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo
Okay, are you gonna give him props for not keeping Everett and leaving us with nothing in center? And by letting Colon go, which I agree with, but not replacing him?

We came into the year with only 2 dependable starters, no closer, no center fielder, a big question mark at second. I'm not giving anybody "props" for that. Most of those holes still remain.
First off the sox have two second basemen hitting over .300 so it looks like that whole is filled. Koch is 7 for 8 in save chances so that whole is filled. Everett is not the answer in centerfield although I'd love to have him back as a left fielder if Lee were to be traded. Kenny offered Bartolo about as much as jr would let him. Also something to think about with Colon, if he resigns Danny Wright probably beats shoney out for the 5th starter spot because of his st and then even if shoney gets a chance to start after wright gets sent down he probably doesn't perform great because he wouldn't be stretched out and really wouldn't have a fair chance like Cotts. So in other words even with Bartolo signed, I think the sox would still be lacking a 5th starter and at this point it's obvious shoney has been much better then Colon.

TheBull19
05-25-2004, 07:32 PM
Originally posted by MRKARNO
Maybe KW really does have a special eye for talent? I'm beginning to wonder. Uribe, Schoeneweis, Harris, Olivo..... Where would we be this year without these four, all of whom KW deserves credit for?

You forgot about Loaiza. As far as Uribe, I think everyone in baseball knew he has talent, it was more a matter if his head was screwed on straight. That may be were Ozzie comes in - another move that's looking good that was criticized by a lot of people.

And Everett can't play center! Rowand may suck but at least he can get to a ball hit more than 15 feet from him.(not in response to quote)

doublem23
05-25-2004, 11:24 PM
Originally posted by pinwheels3530
Still can't give him credit typical sox fan.

Give him all the credit you want, but here's the facts. In 2001, he inherited a young team (average age had to have been in the mid-20s) that had just won 95 games and a division crown. The Sox have yet to break the 90-win plateau in Williams' and have been perrennial bridesmaids.

Blame who you want, but it's utterly absurd to go around praising Kenny for all he's done good and completely disregard all that he's done bad.

(P.S., my opinion of Williams is gradually becoming more positive. I think most of his mistakes come from learning on the job, but that does not rid him of accountability).

batmanZoSo
05-25-2004, 11:31 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
He swapped Gordon for Politte plus 2 draft picks. Oh yeah, Politte is half the cost as well (although admittedly not as good, but a better bet health-wise).

Kenny could not sign Carl until just recently because they did not offer him arbitration. And please don't tell me you wanted Carl in CF for a whole year. SCARY!

Yeah, we wouldn't want to disrupt the current great play we're getting from center field right now. .

batmanZoSo
05-25-2004, 11:34 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
Frankly, it's too early to tell. I agree that this team had a lot of holes and question marks (in my mind) coming into the season - including all those you've identified. But if Harris turns out to be a solid lead off hitter (as he has been so far), Schoenweiss continues to be an above average starter, Koch bounces back to have a big year, and Rowand/Timo/Borchard/Reed are good enough in CF - than hell yeah I'll give KW props (as should everyone else) because he believed that those guys were good enough to get the job done. If they do in fact get the job done, even if you and I and everyone else questioned them at the start of the year, than KW deserves credit for believing in those guys and having them prove him right.

We (the fans) said at the start of the year "Harris isn't good enough; we need a new 2B/lead-off hitter." KW's response was "Harris will get the job done." If Harris gets the job done, it strikes me as awfully self-serving and disingenuous to then say "KW just got lucky" instead of saying "KW was right and we were wrong."

I'm just not interested in giving the upper organization any credit at all. Every year we're really close, but a few players short. We let Rogers slip by yet again and whattya know he just beat us. Quite handily too.

hold2dibber
05-26-2004, 01:49 PM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo
I'm just not interested in giving the upper organization any credit at all. Every year we're really close, but a few players short. We let Rogers slip by yet again and whattya know he just beat us. Quite handily too.

So if KW turns out to be right on Harris and Uribe and Koch, etc., you're not going to give him any credit because you're just not interested in doing so? GMAB. If you're that biased, regardless of what happened, it's no a conversation worth having.

jabrch
05-26-2004, 02:20 PM
Originally posted by doublem23
In 2001, he inherited a young team (average age had to have been in the mid-20s) that had just won 95 games and a division crown.

and the team was loaded with injured pitchers and the farm system had nobody ready to come up and pitch. His best player tore his triceps muscle and was irreplaceable. From there, he rebuilt the team, just missing the playoffs last year, and in good position this year.

jabrch
05-26-2004, 02:22 PM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo
I'm just not interested in giving the upper organization any credit at all. Every year we're really close, but a few players short. We let Rogers slip by yet again and whattya know he just beat us. Quite handily too.

Rogers had a 4.6 era and a 1.4 whip with opponents hitting .292 against him. Sorry - I won't blame KW for not going after a 40 year old SP with numbers like that.

doublem23
05-26-2004, 03:57 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
and the team was loaded with injured pitchers and the farm system had nobody ready to come up and pitch. His best player tore his triceps muscle and was irreplaceable. From there, he rebuilt the team, just missing the playoffs last year, and in good position this year.

Bla bla bla bla bla

That's the same line of crap that let Manuel stay for so long. This has been a very winnable division the last few years and Williams has made a few moves that have clearly cost us wins during his tenure. He's made good moves. But his bad moves have been fiascoes.

hold2dibber
05-26-2004, 11:27 PM
Originally posted by doublem23
Bla bla bla bla bla

That's the same line of crap that let Manuel stay for so long. This has been a very winnable division the last few years and Williams has made a few moves that have clearly cost us wins during his tenure. He's made good moves. But his bad moves have been fiascoes.

Here we go again!! :D:

You take the bad with the good with every GM - and KW has, IMHO, more good than bad, especially in the last 2 years, when he's really only made 1 bad move (Koch/Foulke).

gosox41
05-27-2004, 12:35 AM
Originally posted by joecrede
All the angst expressed on this board over the departure of the great Robbie Alomar and you know what, the Sox are just fine in the middle infield.

Kudos to Williams.

Didn't KW offer Alomar a contract and Alomar got all pissy because his agent wasn't there?


Bob

beckett21
05-27-2004, 12:37 AM
Originally posted by gosox41
Didn't KW offer Alomar a contract and Alomar got all pissy because his agent wasn't there?


Bob

I thought that was the Chairman himself. Maybe it was both.

hold2dibber
05-27-2004, 08:15 AM
Originally posted by beckett21
I thought that was the Chairman himself. Maybe it was both.

No - all the reports were that it was KW. But IIRC, he later withdrew the contract (which was for a couple years at a couple million/year) and ultimately offered a one year, $1 million deal.