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Voice of Reason
05-24-2004, 03:04 PM
Let's run by what there is to like about Jose:

-He hits for good power, always a plus.
-He is a lefty, most of our lineup is right handed, we need someone who is a threat against right handed pitching.
-He plays shortstop, by my count there are maybe five guys in the majors who can both play shortstop and outhit Valentin. That makes Jose a relatively rare commodity.
-He has good range. Say what you will about his errors, the guy has range at shortstop and range is more important than errors.

If anything Jose Valentin is underrated. If he played in the NL away from Arod, Jeter, Tejada and Nomar, Jose would have made some All-Star teeams. The argument that Jose is expendable because we have Uribe is Harris just doesn't hold water. For one Jose is the only one of the three who has been a good hitter for longer than a month and a half. Secondly, Crede has been a black hole on offense, if he keeps it up it would be smart to make Jose the starter at third and Uribe the starter at short. Finally, once again Jose is the only real left handed threat in the lineup. Everyone seems to realize that we need another left handed bat, so why are so many people excited about getting rid of the one we have?

The only halfway legit argument against Valentin is his defense. And I think even if he is a poor defender its worth keeping him in the lineup because of all the other things he bring to the table. But he's not a poor defender, he just suffers from a bad public opinion because most people are too lazy too look past the error column.

doublem23
05-24-2004, 03:05 PM
He has as many strikeouts as hits and has a BB:K ratio of less than 1:3.

Manos had a great year in 2000. He's still a leader in the clubhouse. But Uribe and Harris have both shown they do have tremendous upsides while Valentin's production over the last few years has tapered off.

Voice of Reason
05-24-2004, 03:06 PM
Originally posted by doublem23
He has as many strikeouts as hits and has a BB:K ratio of less than 1:3.

Whats so bad about strikeouts? How is a K worse than a pop out? Strikeouts are better than double plays. A lot of good players strike out a lot.

doublem23
05-24-2004, 03:09 PM
Originally posted by Voice of Reason
Whats so bad about strikeouts? How is a K worse than a pop out? Strikeouts are better than double plays. A lot of good players strike out a lot.

Have you watched him at all this year? He's looked brutal in a lot of at-bats. And what's so bad about strikeouts? You don't put the ball in play, you don't make the defense earn the out. Yeah, a strike-out is worse than a pop-up. Anything can happen on a pop-up; you strike out, you sit down.

A lot of good hitters strike out a lot, but they also get far more hits than strikeouts. If Jose had an OBP of even around .375, I'd be all right with a ton of K's. But when you're only getting on base roughly 30% of the time you step to the plate, you can't be striking out that much.

Voice of Reason
05-24-2004, 03:14 PM
Originally posted by doublem23
Have you watched him at all this year? He's looked brutal in a lot of at-bats. And what's so bad about strikeouts? You don't put the ball in play, you don't make the defense earn the out. Yeah, a strike-out is worse than a pop-up. Anything can happen on a pop-up; you strike out, you sit down.

A lot of good hitters strike out a lot, but they also get far more hits than strikeouts. If Jose had an OBP of even around .375, I'd be all right with a ton of K's. But when you're only getting on base roughly 30% of the time you step to the plate, you can't be striking out that much.

While I only have a chance to watch games on WGN, I have seen him, and yes he hasn't looked good at times but look at his numbers, he's getting the job done. When is the last time you saw a major leaguer reach base on a pop up? If you hit a pop up every at bat, how many times would something good happen? Once or twice all year? No one should care how many times Jose strikes out because he's one of a handful of shortstops who can slug over .500. Yeah, he doesn't have the best OBP but look around at other shortstops. Most of them can't hit at all. Most shortstops post a weak OBP and a weak SLG.

Randar68
05-24-2004, 03:20 PM
Originally posted by Voice of Reason
While I only have a chance to watch games on WGN, I have seen him, and yes he hasn't looked good at times but look at his numbers, he's getting the job done. When is the last time you saw a major leaguer reach base on a pop up? If you hit a pop up every at bat, how many times would something good happen? Once or twice all year? No one should care how many times Jose strikes out because he's one of a handful of shortstops who can slug over .500. Yeah, he doesn't have the best OBP but look around at other shortstops. Most of them can't hit at all. Most shortstops post a weak OBP and a weak SLG.

So, then we should remove our 2nd best (behind Frank) OBP guy from the line-up and make Uribe play 2nd instead?

I like Jose, but the numbers he has up now are better than he's done the past 2 years, so I don't really expect it to continue at this pace all season.

joecrede
05-24-2004, 03:29 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
So, then we should remove our 2nd best (behind Frank) OBP guy from the line-up and make Uribe play 2nd instead?

I like Jose, but the numbers he has up now are better than he's done the past 2 years, so I don't really expect it to continue at this pace all season.

But you think Harris is going to continue his .370 OBP? And if he does, why can't he be platooned in center?

bobj4400
05-24-2004, 03:33 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
But you think Harris is going to continue his .370 OBP? And if he does, why can't he be platooned in center?

FOV! FOV! FOV!

joecrede
05-24-2004, 03:34 PM
Originally posted by bobj4400
FOV! FOV! FOV!

I don't understand.

Randar68
05-24-2004, 03:38 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
But you think Harris is going to continue his .370 OBP? And if he does, why can't he be platooned in center?

Harris is young and this is his first real extended chance to start in the majors. He's improved as the season has progressed, so yes, I DO think he can keep up his current pace:

In 19 April games, he hit .254 with a .299 OBP 14 K's, 5 BB's and 5 SB's.
In 15 May games, he's hit .388 with a .466 OBP and 7 K's, 8 BB's and 1 SB.

So yes, I do believe the Real Willie Harris is somewhere in the middle there.

doublem23
05-24-2004, 03:38 PM
Wait, is if Fans of Valentin or was it Fans of Manos?

Randar68
05-24-2004, 03:39 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
I don't understand.

"Friends of Valentin"

Although I believe this club already had the name of:

FOM: "Friends of Manos"???

bobj4400
05-24-2004, 03:39 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
I don't understand.


Just stating that you are one of the most outspoken members of Fans of Valentin...much like SEAL is the leader of FOC (Fans of Crash).

doublem23
05-24-2004, 03:40 PM
Originally posted by bobj4400
Just stating that you are one of the most outspoken members of Fans of Valentin...much like SEAL is the leader of FOC (Fans of Crash).

Oh, the FOMs were very outspoken during the illustrious Royce Clayton era.

bobj4400
05-24-2004, 03:40 PM
Originally posted by doublem23
Wait, is if Fans of Valentin or was it Fans of Manos?

I think it actually was FOM. I should edit my posts to reflect that...

joecrede
05-24-2004, 03:40 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
Harris is young and this is his first real extended chance to start in the majors. He's improved as the season has progressed, so yes, I DO think he can keep up his current pace:

In 19 April games, he hit .254 with a .299 OBP 14 K's, 5 BB's and 5 SB's.
In 15 May games, he's hit .388 with a .466 OBP and 7 K's, 8 BB's and 1 SB.

So yes, I do believe the Real Willie Harris is somewhere in the middle there.

And that's fine, if his bat continues to merit playing time he can platoon in center.

Randar68
05-24-2004, 03:46 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
And that's fine, if his bat continues to merit playing time he can platoon in center.

To make room for Manos? Uribe is a better SS than a 2B and a better SS than Jose (which I believe you alluded to by suggesting Jose play 2B and Uribe SS, IIRC), but IMO, Jose would be a disaster at 2B. Harris is reliable there.

OF is a crowded position, particularly next season if Reed and Borchard continue to improve. If Maggs moves on, I just hope they sign Beltran or similar to take over CF or RF. That leaves you with Lee, Reed, and Maggs/Beltran/other. Not to mention what you do with the gaggle of #4 OF'ers.

I would MUCH rather put that 5 million towards CF or starting pitching, (CLOSER!?!?). The Sox have got to address other needs before they worry about overpaying a HR-no-walk-SS in an already crowded middle IF.

poorme
05-24-2004, 03:54 PM
The problem with Valentin is he's a $1.5 million player making $5 million.

fquaye149
05-24-2004, 03:55 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
And that's fine, if his bat continues to merit playing time he can platoon in center.

so we're going to PLATOON one of our better hitters (assuming that Willie can be in the middle of .300 and .466 OBP) and one of our only players who is fleet of foot, so we can keep a triple A centerfielder in the game and force either uribe or valentin to play a position that is not his best?

my ideal infield would be uribe and harris, but barring that, and assuming that jose SHOULD play, don't f'n platoon him in center! willie needs to be in our lineup everyday when healthy

joecrede
05-24-2004, 04:23 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
To make room for Manos? Uribe is a better SS than a 2B and a better SS than Jose (which I believe you alluded to by suggesting Jose play 2B and Uribe SS, IIRC), but IMO, Jose would be a disaster at 2B. Harris is reliable there.

OF is a crowded position, particularly next season if Reed and Borchard continue to improve. If Maggs moves on, I just hope they sign Beltran or similar to take over CF or RF. That leaves you with Lee, Reed, and Maggs/Beltran/other. Not to mention what you do with the gaggle of #4 OF'ers.

I would MUCH rather put that 5 million towards CF or starting pitching, (CLOSER!?!?). The Sox have got to address other needs before they worry about overpaying a HR-no-walk-SS in an already crowded middle IF.

Maybe Valentin can't play second, that's okay. Leave him at short and Uribe at second. (If Uribe merits a starting position next year.)

Isn't the real problem with the Sox Carlos Lee? His $7.5M next year would be much better served somewhere else with Reed replacing him.

joecrede
05-24-2004, 04:25 PM
Originally posted by fquaye149
so we're going to PLATOON one of our better hitters (assuming that Willie can be in the middle of .300 and .466 OBP) and one of our only players who is fleet of foot, so we can keep a triple A centerfielder in the game and force either uribe or valentin to play a position that is not his best?

my ideal infield would be uribe and harris, but barring that, and assuming that jose SHOULD play, don't f'n platoon him in center! willie needs to be in our lineup everyday when healthy

I think it's way premature to think of Willie Harris as anything but a drag on an offense.

Randar68
05-24-2004, 04:26 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
Maybe Valentin can't play second, that's okay. Leave him at short and Uribe at second. (If Uribe merits a starting position next year.)

Isn't the real problem with the Sox Carlos Lee? His $7.5M next year would be much better served somewhere else with Reed replacing him.

Wait wait. So you're eager to give Jose 5 million for 2 more years in the decline of his career, but you're worried about Carlos getting 7.5 million entering his prime? Why does that seem backwards?

If Maggs walks, you're left with NO proven OF'ers if Lee is gone. If Harris and Uribe produce all year, at least you have 2 proven commodities in the middle IF and 5 million off the books to use to fill CF, RF, and big pitching holes.

The OF prospects are on the way, but let's not be so quick to overlook things in the short-term...

Randar68
05-24-2004, 04:28 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
I think it's way premature to think of Willie Harris as anything but a drag on an offense.

Why would you say this? I'm very confused. Drag on the offense??? Seriously, Konerko (for weeks at a time), Jose for a period, Carlos for the first month, Crede, Rowand...

That's a drag on an offense. Willie's hitting .308 with a .370+ OBP at the top of the order, even after a slow April. How is that a drag again?

FarWestChicago
05-24-2004, 04:28 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
"Friends of Valentin"

Although I believe this club already had the name of:

FOM: "Friends of Manos"??? You youngun's have no memory. :smile:

It's BOM, Backers of Manos. :cool:

jeremyb1
05-24-2004, 04:30 PM
Originally posted by fquaye149
so we're going to PLATOON one of our better hitters (assuming that Willie can be in the middle of .300 and .466 OBP) and one of our only players who is fleet of foot, so we can keep a triple A centerfielder in the game and force either uribe or valentin to play a position that is not his best?

Who is Harris better than? As Rowand proved yet again yesterday he's far better than Harris and most other players with a lefty on the mound. He absolutely rakes lefties. I started an entire thread about this and no one was able to contradict that premise so if you can I'd love to see you mosey on over to the "Do people understand what a platoon is?" thread and do so.

Right now the following players on our roster have had a better offensive output this season (which is a terrible way to evaluate this issue but since you insist): Thomas, Konerko, Uribe, Ordonez, and Valentin with Carlos and Olivo close to Harris' production but please lets rely solely on batting average here.

jeremyb1
05-24-2004, 04:32 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
Maybe Valentin can't play second, that's okay. Leave him at short and Uribe at second. (If Uribe merits a starting position next year.)

Exactly. Whether Uribe is better than Jose at SS is not the issue here. Both players are outstanding infielders and a Uribe Valentin infield is certainly better than a Uribe Harris platoon. If people think Jose would be terrible at 2B (I'm not sure why other than it being a new position) then leave Uribe at 2B he's plenty valuable there.

jeremyb1
05-24-2004, 04:33 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
OF is a crowded position, particularly next season if Reed and Borchard continue to improve.

I think that's a good reason to wait until the offseason to deal with that. We'll have a full seasons production to judge Uribe and Harris and Jose will be a free agent so we can decide whether or not to keep him.

Randar68
05-24-2004, 04:34 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
Who is Harris better than? As Rowand proved yet again yesterday he's far better than Harris and most other players with a lefty on the mound. He absolutely rakes lefties. I started an entire thread about this and no one was able to contradict that premise so if you can I'd love to see you mosey on over to the "Do people understand what a platoon is?" thread and do so.

Right now the following players on our roster have had a better offensive output this season (which is a terrible way to evaluate this issue but since you insist): Thomas, Konerko, Uribe, Ordonez, and Valentin with Carlos and Olivo close to Harris' production but please lets rely solely on batting average here.

You failed yet again to address why you think, as a top of the order hitter, Harris isn't as productive as some of the others (your measure of production is totally unsupported by way of your means of reasoning here) and the fact that he's basically our 2nd best OBP hitter and doing so at the top of the order. Who give a flying F*** if he hits HR's or not? Get on base, be a distraction, work counts, take walks, bunt when asked. It's his ROLE, something he's done very well.

How can you compare that role with what's being asked of Frank or Konerko or Maggs? Silliness.

OBP, situational hitting, and being a threat on the basepaths is how I judge a leadoff hitter. I don't give a crap if he hits .250 or sluggs .300 if his OBP is in the high .300's.

joecrede
05-24-2004, 04:34 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
Wait wait. So you're eager to give Jose 5 million for 2 more years in the decline of his career, but you're worried about Carlos getting 7.5 million entering his prime? Why does that seem backwards?

Difference in the positions they play and the overabundance of right-handed hitters. Yep, maybe Valentin is in decline, but his numbers are as good as ever. Besides, it's only a two-year deal.

Lee's production, as a LF'er, can be replaced at a fraction of his current cost.

Randar68
05-24-2004, 04:35 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
I think that's a good reason to wait until the offseason to deal with that. We'll have a full seasons production to judge Uribe and Harris and Jose will be a free agent so we can decide whether or not to keep him.

I don't disagree, but the original post in this thread suggested we lock him up today, which is completely fiscally irresponsible.

joecrede
05-24-2004, 04:41 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
Exactly. Whether Uribe is better than Jose at SS is not the issue here. Both players are outstanding infielders and a Uribe Valentin infield is certainly better than a Uribe Harris platoon. If people think Jose would be terrible at 2B (I'm not sure why other than it being a new position) then leave Uribe at 2B he's plenty valuable there.

There are people here who think Rowand is a terrible CF'er so . . .

BTW, did anyone see Torii Hunter turn a maybe-double by Maggs yesterday into a triple?

jeremyb1
05-24-2004, 04:42 PM
Originally posted by doublem23
Have you watched him at all this year? He's looked brutal in a lot of at-bats.

The issue should never be how good a player looks it should be how much he helps the team win games whether he does it with a pretty Griffey Jr. swing or an ugly one.


Originally posted by doublem23
what's so bad about strikeouts? You don't put the ball in play, you don't make the defense earn the out. Yeah, a strike-out is worse than a pop-up. Anything can happen on a pop-up; you strike out, you sit down.

Lets take a look at this. First of all if you put the ball in play and something good happens you get a hit so that effect of Jose's K's are reflected in his AVG and OBP. That only leaves us with errors then, right? Let's say the average team makes about 100 errors in a season and therefore the average team generates around 100 errors in a season on offense. This is rough but the fluctuation doesn't really matter here. So with the exeption of one season 8 years ago for Milwaukee, Jose's never struck out more than 114 times. If the average team generates 100 errors and the average player plays about a tenth of the time (that's generous) then an average player which hit ten balls in play during the course of a season that generate errors. If Jose K's 114 times in 500 plate appearences then only a little over one fifth of the errors he hits into would be eliminated through strikeouts, a grand total of 2-3 errors. However, there's one last problem here. That's under the assumption that the average player strikes out zero times in a season. Since instead 50 strikeouts is very good we're talking about at most probably one error throughout the course of the season. So when we boil it down Jose gets on base one fewer time over the course of 162 games than his numbers suggest and that makes him worse than Harris?! Ok...

A lot of good hitters strike out a lot, but they also get far more hits than strikeouts. If Jose had an OBP of even around .375, I'd be all right with a ton of K's. But when you're only getting on base roughly 30% of the time you step to the plate, you can't be striking out that much. [/B][/QUOTE]

joecrede
05-24-2004, 04:43 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
I don't disagree, but the original post in this thread suggested we lock him up today, which is completely fiscally irresponsible.

He's going to cost more than $10M on the open market.

jeremyb1
05-24-2004, 04:43 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
I don't disagree, but the original post in this thread suggested we lock him up today, which is completely fiscally irresponsible.

That's actually the other thread and I agree it's a bad idea to lock him up. I'm merely debating who's a more valuable players this season since a lot of people seem to believe Harris is.

Randar68
05-24-2004, 04:44 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
There are people here who think Rowand is a terrible CF'er so . . .

BTW, did anyone see Torii Hunter turn a maybe-double by Maggs yesterday into a triple?

:rollseyes

*****. Get off it. Rowand's lucky if he's adequate. There's also no way he could have misplayed that ball, because it would have been bounding into the gap by the time he got moving in the right direction.

Jose lapses on easy plays and doesn't go to his right as well as he does to his left.

I just don't know why anyone in their right mind would pay him 5 million bucks when that will be more than double what you'll have to pay your entire middle-IF next year of Uribe and Harris, especially when you have huge gaping holes elsewhere.

Randar68
05-24-2004, 04:45 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
He's going to cost more than $10M on the open market.

think again.

maurice
05-24-2004, 04:46 PM
IMHO, if Valentin puts up typical numbers for him and hits the market this offseason, he'd be lucky to get a two-year deal for $2 mil. per. If some team is THAT interested in him, chances are he'll be gone by the deadline.

Randar68
05-24-2004, 04:46 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
That's actually the other thread and I agree it's a bad idea to lock him up. I'm merely debating who's a more valuable players this season since a lot of people seem to believe Harris is.

In a FA-perspective, Jose plays SS, Harris 2B, and Jose hits for power, and Harris does not.

However, I think it's borderline lunacy to continue building this team around the 3-run HR without injecting some youthful energy, speed, and OBP skills, particularly to the LACKING top of the order.

joecrede
05-24-2004, 04:49 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
I just don't know why anyone in their right mind would pay him 5 million bucks when that will be more than double what you'll have to pay your entire middle-IF next year of Uribe and Harris, especially when you have huge gaping holes elsewhere.

Because there is a chance your entire middle infield will be a gaping hole next year. Carlos Lee, on the other hand, is a good deal at $7.5M?

pjthesox13
05-24-2004, 04:52 PM
Originally posted by poorme
The problem with Valentin is he's a $1.5 million player making $5 million.

I agree with this. As much as I think that Jose is a leader for this team, I just don't see him playing up to the standards he has for the last couple of years for long. It is great to have a lefty bat in an almost all righty lineup but this would probably be the time to move him before his numbers begin to decline too much.

bobj4400
05-24-2004, 04:52 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
He's going to cost more than $10M on the open market.

He will be lucky to get half that for 2 years on the open market.

Randar68
05-24-2004, 04:55 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
Because there is a chance your entire middle infield will be a gaping hole next year. Carlos Lee, on the other hand, is a good deal at $7.5M?

And you figure how? This lack of confidence in Uribe and Harris is your reasoning for wanting to extend Jose for 10 million bucks now? Thank GOD you don't make these decisions. You're vastly over-rating Jose's FA worth. Uribe and Harris ARE ON PACE to answer those questions and solidify themselves as regulars.

The only reason his option was picked up is because the Sox had 2 ?-marks in the middle IF and couldn't afford to risk the entire season on 2 unproven players. If they didn't pick up Jose's option, he would have gone to arbitration and made at least what he is this year, based solely on his previous salary.

Carlos takes walks, he has better power than Jose, and he can hit both righty and lefties. Again, he's also entering his prime years, while Jose is on the downside.

Fiscal responsibility not only deals with how you handle paying the players you have, but how you use the money freed up by departures to fill the bigger holes in your team. Just like you deal from strength, you don't over-pay a player if you have a good replacement available and have bigger needs elsewhere...

jeremyb1
05-24-2004, 04:56 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
You failed yet again to address why you think, as a top of the order hitter, Harris isn't as productive as some of the others (your measure of production is totally unsupported by way of your means of reasoning here) and the fact that he's basically our 2nd best OBP hitter and doing so at the top of the order. Who give a flying F*** if he hits HR's or not? Get on base, be a distraction, work counts, take walks, bunt when asked. It's his ROLE, something he's done very well.

How can you compare that role with what's being asked of Frank or Konerko or Maggs? Silliness.

OBP, situational hitting, and being a threat on the basepaths is how I judge a leadoff hitter. I don't give a crap if he hits .250 or sluggs .300 if his OBP is in the high .300's.

Well the post I was responding to referred to Harris and one of our best hitters not one of our best leadoff hitters and I strongly disagree with that so that's what I was responding too.

I think the problem with your post is you're suggesting that the underlying reason that Harris is not one of the best all around hitters on the team is that he's our leadoff hitter and that's not his role. First of all, there's no reason a leadoff hitter can't hit with any power. Ricky Henderson the best leadoff hitter of all time got on base at absurd rates and still hit the ball out of the park. Durham was an outstanding leadoff hitter who got on base at a .380 clip (consistently over a number of seasons not for 100 at bats) and hit 15-20 home runs. However, listing those players might lead to confusion and is beside the point because I'm not saying Harris needs to hit with that sort of power or hit home runs at all, that downplays how poor his ability to hit for extra bases has been. Harris despite his speed has only 7 doubles, zero triples, and zero home runs giving him a paltry .367 SLG. Only Konerko and Crede - two of the slowest guys on the team - have fewer doubles.

The bottom line is I could handle the really low SLG if I agreed with you that Harris could be one of the better leadoff hitters by posting a .400 OBP or even a .370 OBP for that matter but that absolutely remains to be seen. Clearly Harris doesn't walk at a particularly good rate. Currently his value is tied up completely in an average over .300 and batting average is notorious as the least consistent of statistics. If you're going to say that any player that hits .300 over 120 at bats has the ability to do so consistently, I could show you a lot of examples otherwise.

joecrede
05-24-2004, 05:02 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
Fiscal responsibility not only deals with how you handle paying the players you have, but how you use the money freed up by departures to fill the bigger holes in your team. Just like you deal from strength, you don't over-pay a player if you have a good replacement available and have bigger needs elsewhere...

Isn't Reed a suitable replacement for Lee? Wouldn't he help address your top-of-order, OBP concerns? I'd rather have Valentin, Reed, and whatever you garner in a trade for Lee than Lee, Reed, and draft compensation for losing Valentin.

Randar68
05-24-2004, 05:03 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
Because there is a chance your entire middle infield will be a gaping hole next year. Carlos Lee, on the other hand, is a good deal at $7.5M?

For the record, Jose's numbers

Career: .247 avg, .330 OBP, .452 SLG, .777 OPS
3-year avg (2001-2003): .247 AVG, .320 OBP, .483 SLG, .803 OPS

This year so far: .275 AVG, .333 OBP, .539 SLG, .872 OPS

So, a man who is on the decline, who has a recent OBP of .320, in a lineup full of sluggers who doesn't walk enough, is worth 5 million a year? This current production will not continue the whole year, history bears that out.

Also, not saying it will continue or is the only measure of good play, but he's made 10 errors in just 26 games. Andy Gonzalez was doing better than that at High-A ball and got moved to 3rd, LOL!

Anyways, this argument is pretty silly. Jose would be lucky to get 2 years for 5 million bucks on the open market for a declining 35 year old (next year)

Randar68
05-24-2004, 05:07 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
The bottom line is I could handle the really low SLG if I agreed with you that Harris could be one of the better leadoff hitters by posting a .400 OBP or even a .370 OBP for that matter but that absolutely remains to be seen. Clearly Harris doesn't walk at a particularly good rate. Currently his value is tied up completely in an average over .300 and batting average is notorious as the least consistent of statistics. If you're going to say that any player that hits .300 over 120 at bats has the ability to do so consistently, I could show you a lot of examples otherwise.

Jose hits. .250 or lower on average, per year, with a .330 or lower OBP.

Thanks, but I'll sacrifice the power for 40+ pts of OBP and someone to get on base at the top of the order.

The whole argument is based on Harris and Uribe continuing to perform and not making any rash decisions to handicap yourself in the future by overpaying an old and declining error-prone no-OBP SS. However, for as nuts as everyone went about Reed hitting .400 in AA, Harris did it in AAA (although in fewer AB's IIRC)...

maurice
05-24-2004, 05:08 PM
I don't care if my leadoff hitter ever hits a HR. Ricky Henderson would be the best leadoff hitter of all time if he never hit any HRs.

Sure, all things being equal, power is better than no power . . . but thing very rarely are equal.

Randar68
05-24-2004, 05:08 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
Isn't Reed a suitable replacement for Lee? Wouldn't he help address your top-of-order, OBP concerns? I'd rather have Valentin, Reed, and whatever you garner in a trade for Lee than Lee, Reed, and draft compensation for losing Valentin.

Reed is a prototypical #2 hitter. Harris-Reed looks a lot better than any of the alternatives at this point.

Randar68
05-24-2004, 05:09 PM
Originally posted by maurice
Ricky Henderson would be the best leadoff hitter of all time if he never hit any HRs.

DING DING.

jabrch
05-24-2004, 05:10 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
Anyways, this argument is pretty silly. Jose would be lucky to get 2 years for 5 million bucks on the open market for a declining 35 year old (next year)

Exactly. This is one of the silliest arguements we have had here in a long time. Trying to justify resigning Jose today for 2 years and 10mm more is ridiculous.

joecrede
05-24-2004, 05:12 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
Jose hits. .250 or lower on average, per year, with a .330 or lower OBP.

~.350 OBP when facing righties.

jabrch
05-24-2004, 05:16 PM
Originally posted by maurice
I don't care if my leadoff hitter ever hits a HR. Ricky Henderson would be the best leadoff hitter of all time if he never hit any HRs.

Sure, all things being equal, power is better than no power . . . but thing very rarely are equal.

Let's sign him! He is available cheap.

:reinsy
"Cheap? Sounds good to me"

http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/iy/a8/bc518fd6784fd6bde274daefb3b3b3_sm.jpg
"Rickey aint cheap. Rickey is a steal. Rickey still can play this game"

:reinsy
"Wait - is he cheap or not?"

:KW
"I want to know if he is a grinder"

http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/iy/a8/bc518fd6784fd6bde274daefb3b3b3_sm.jpg
"Rickey is a grinder. Rickey is cheap. Rickey is whatever you want if you sign him"

:reinsy :KW
"SOLD"

Randar68
05-24-2004, 05:17 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
~.350 OBP when facing righties.

So, you're willing to play a platoon player in the middle IF 5 million bucks?

Heck, RH-hitting 2B who can only hit lefties probably are a lot cheaper and easier to find than signing a 35-year-old for 10 million bucks to platoon on the IF.

Uribe at SS, Harris at 2B, and a utility IF'er to play 2nd base for the 20% of the time they face lefties.

pjthesox13
05-24-2004, 05:18 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
Reed is a prototypical #2 hitter. Harris-Reed looks a lot better than any of the alternatives at this point.

Although I do think Uribe bats much better in the top of the lineup than the bottom, so I wouldn't want to see him moved too far down.

Randar68
05-24-2004, 05:20 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
~.350 OBP when facing righties.

BTW, Jose's 3-year average OBP versus righties is .337

dirty-mutt
05-24-2004, 06:07 PM
I would like to see harris and uribe at SS and 2B, but its not going to happen for now. I just hope willie gets his ABs in all of this, CF, 2B, whatever

jeremyb1
05-24-2004, 06:31 PM
Originally posted by maurice
I don't care if my leadoff hitter ever hits a HR. Ricky Henderson would be the best leadoff hitter of all time if he never hit any HRs
Originally posted by Randar68
DING DING.

My point is not that Henderson was a great hitter because he hit for power my point is that the role of being a successful leadoff hitter does very little to limit ones ability to slug more than .350.

jeremyb1
05-24-2004, 06:37 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
The whole argument is based on Harris and Uribe continuing to perform

...and that evidence seems to be lacking in my opinion.

Originally posted by Randar68
and not making any rash decisions to handicap yourself in the future by overpaying an old and declining error-prone no-OBP SS. However, for as nuts as everyone went about Reed hitting .400 in AA, Harris did it in AAA (although in fewer AB's IIRC)...

Jose isn't a "no OBP" player. .330 is around the average for all major leaguers and we're considering a player at the weakest offensive position in the game which severely alters the situation. With regard to errors, they are irrelevant. What is pertinent is the overall concept of defense which Jose is quite good at. A strong case has been made that Jose was the best AL SS in '02. You can quibble with that but anyway you look at it his overall defense is a definite plus. If you want to evaluate a player you have to look at the entire picture not just errors or OBP.

With regards to Harris, that's where age and sample size come into play. Hitting .400 in 100 at bats as in AAA as a 25 year old isn't quite on par with hitting over .400 in 250+ plate AA appearences as a 22 year old.

Randar68
05-24-2004, 08:22 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
Jose isn't a "no OBP" player. .330 is around the average for all major leaguers and we're considering a player at the weakest offensive position in the game which severely alters the situation. With regard to errors, they are irrelevant. What is pertinent is the overall concept of defense which Jose is quite good at. A strong case has been made that Jose was the best AL SS in '02. You can quibble with that but anyway you look at it his overall defense is a definite plus. If you want to evaluate a player you have to look at the entire picture not just errors or OBP.

You're joking, right? C, CF, and probably 2B are all weaker offensive positions than SS these days, particularly in the AL. Then again, maybe I don't have the right sample size to make that argument...

Originally posted by jeremyb1
With regards to Harris, that's where age and sample size come into play. Hitting .400 in 100 at bats as in AAA as a 25 year old isn't quite on par with hitting over .400 in 250+ plate AA appearances as a 22 year old.

Harris hit .305 in AA at age 23
He hit .283 in AAA at age 24
He hit .380 in AAA at age 25

Sorry, I don't see your reasoning that makes it so obvious to only you that Harris is incapable of keeping up his current pace...

Frater Perdurabo
05-24-2004, 08:55 PM
Let's all calm down a minute here.

There are enough at-bats on this team to keep Valentin, Uribe and Harris happy. My preference is to start Uribe at SS and Harris at 2B most of the time, with Valentin getting time backing up short and DH-ing against right-handed pitching (while Frank plays first, of course). Harris also can play CF until the Sox make a deal for a legitimate left-handed hitting CF with speed. Valentin also can play short, with Uribe moving to 3B, if Crede continues to struggle.

If Uribe and Harris continue to produce throughout the season, then it will be an easy decision to let Valentin go. If either Uribe or Harris stink it up later this year, then the Sox still have Valentin on the team as a known (if not perfect) quantity. At the end of the season Valentin will be one of many options on the free agent market, barring a trade. If either Uribe or Harris gets hurt, the Sox still have Valentin to play short.

Trading Valentin for the sake of trading him is not smart. He's not my favorite player and of course he's not a long-term answer. But he is a left-handed bat with some pop and he has decent range at short. He's a known quantity and he has value to the Sox this season. Let's ride it out. Of course if trading him indirectly yields the Sox a player to fill one of their needs, then he's expendable. But he's not worthless, either.

Think of it this way: Valentin gives the Sox some real flexibility and insurance in case of injury or extended slumps on the part of Harris, Uribe, Crede or Rowand. Would we rather have Kelly Dransfeldt filling that role?

Hangar18
05-24-2004, 09:01 PM
NOOOOOOOOOO. Valentin Shouldnt be playing regularly.
He strikes out too much. Now before you say....what do you mean he K's too much, there are other guys on the Team that K too much also, but HIS position is one they can afford to use someone else. This is what happens when you have Too Many of the Same Type of Players. HE drives me nuts with his 2 for 5 performances, the other 3 AB's being terrible (swinging at ball4, striking out and failing to move the runner up, etc etc) Id
rather have Uribe Playing everyday, Willie Harris' speed in the lineup.

StepsInSC
05-24-2004, 09:20 PM
Originally posted by Frater Perdurabo
Let's all calm down a minute here.

There are enough at-bats on this team to keep Valentin, Uribe and Harris happy. My preference is to start Uribe at SS and Harris at 2B most of the time, with Valentin getting time backing up short and DH-ing against right-handed pitching (while Frank plays first, of course). Harris also can play CF until the Sox make a deal for a legitimate left-handed hitting CF with speed. Valentin also can play short, with Uribe moving to 3B, if Crede continues to struggle.


There's a voice of reason. I like that idea, esp getting Hurt some time at first. If I could, I'd give you a cookie.

TheRockinMT
05-24-2004, 09:43 PM
You are truly the voice of reason Voice of Reason. I believe you are correct in your analysis of Jose Valentin. I hope that we keep Jose around and he plays SS on a regular basis. I think his defense is good and he plays hard all the time every game. That's what you need and all you can ask for.

Frater Perdurabo
05-25-2004, 09:16 AM
Originally posted by StepsInSC
There's a voice of reason. I like that idea, esp getting Hurt some time at first. If I could, I'd give you a cookie.

Mmmm. Cookie. :smile: