PDA

View Full Version : The Gameplan for finding a 5


jeremyb1
05-22-2004, 11:56 PM
We seem to completely lack any sort of game plan for finding a fifth starter. If the organization was convinced Diaz and Cotts were legitimate options, wouldn't it make sense to give them a decent trial? Wright got what, five starts? Why give Diaz only two chances and Cotts only one? That really isn't enough to evaluate starting pitchers. In the end it's only going to waste confidence and options.

Meixner007
05-23-2004, 12:05 AM
Is cotts back in the pen?

lowesox
05-23-2004, 12:10 AM
I agree for several reasons:

1) Give Cotts a chance to rebuild confidence
2) Give KW time to think about plans D,E and F
3) Cotts deserves it

beckett21
05-23-2004, 12:15 AM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
We seem to completely lack any sort of game plan for finding a fifth starter. If the organization was convinced Diaz and Cotts were legitimate options, wouldn't it make sense to give them a decent trial? Wright got what, five starts? Why give Diaz only two chances and Cotts only one? That really isn't enough to evaluate starting pitchers. In the end it's only going to waste confidence and options.

Yup. A guy like Cotts needs to know his role. He either deserves a fair shot, or keep him where he is.

Diaz got rocked, but the guy had to have some jitters. Mind you this is not what you want on your staff if you plan to contend, but I agree that he didn't get a fair chance to prove himself.

At this point I would think rather than keep shuttling guys back and forth, we should just keep Cotts in the fifth starter role until either he establishes himself or we find a better option. No way he is ever going to build any confidence if he keeps getting yanked from the rotation after a bad outing. It also sends a bad message to the other kids.

I have said before that I would rather have seen Rauch come up after demoting Wright, but I have no knowledge of his situation. Once they decided on Diaz, he should have gotten at least 4 starts IMO before final judgment was passed. I had enough of him after two starts, but I don't run the club and they probably should have been a little more patient. Now the whole situation is turning ugly. I really don't want to see anymore prospects at this point until September.

There's no easy way out now. It's a mess.

And people like me bitching and moaning about it don't help matters either! :D:

lowesox
05-23-2004, 12:27 AM
Originally posted by beckett21
Yup. A guy like Cotts needs to know his role. He either deserves a fair shot, or keep him where he is.

Diaz got rocked, but the guy had to have some jitters. Mind you this is not what you want on your staff if you plan to contend, but I agree that he didn't get a fair chance to prove himself.

At this point I would think rather than keep shuttling guys back and forth, we should just keep Cotts in the fifth starter role until either he establishes himself or we find a better option. No way he is ever going to build any confidence if he keeps getting yanked from the rotation after a bad outing. It also sends a bad message to the other kids.

I have said before that I would rather have seen Rauch come up after demoting Wright, but I have no knowledge of his situation. Once they decided on Diaz, he should have gotten at least 4 starts IMO before final judgment was passed. I had enough of him after two starts, but I don't run the club and they probably should have been a little more patient. Now the whole situation is turning ugly. I really don't want to see anymore prospects at this point until September.

There's no easy way out now. It's a mess.

And people like me bitching and moaning about it don't help matters either! :D:

I think we're on the same page about sticking with a guy now until they have a legit backup plan drafted up. Although, it sucks that Cotts is the guy. First of all, he'll need to get stretched out - which means that next start how deep could we realistically expect him to go? And secondly, if we give him two or three starts and he gets rocked his confidence will be lost. Which means we'll have lost the Cotts we had in the early part of the year.

I agree that we should stick with Cotts, but it looks like we made a mistake not sticking with Diaz. Now we may have created two holes.

Then again, maybe Neal will go out next time and kick ass. Wouldn't that be a nice solution?

beckett21
05-23-2004, 12:43 AM
Originally posted by lowesox
I think we're on the same page about sticking with a guy now until they have a legit backup plan drafted up. Although, it sucks that Cotts is the guy. First of all, he'll need to get stretched out - which means that next start how deep could we realistically expect him to go? And secondly, if we give him two or three starts and he gets rocked his confidence will be lost. Which means we'll have lost the Cotts we had in the early part of the year.

I agree that we should stick with Cotts, but it looks like we made a mistake not sticking with Diaz. Now we may have created two holes.

Then again, maybe Neal will go out next time and kick ass. Wouldn't that be a nice solution?

Yeah, I advocated patience with Wright initially. But once it was obvious he had to go, I have been all for a trade. Obviously timing is key, you can't just snap your fingers and make a deal. The mistake to me was ever bringing up Diaz in the first place. Of course hindsight is always 20/20, and maybe he was deserving of a shot. He didn't get much of a shot as it turned out. Maybe it was the stark realization that he was in way over his head; they should have anticipated that in the first place.

Rauch, Munoz, Grilli....etc, etc, etc.....they weren't good enough to get the call before, why should we expect them to be any better now? Tough to catch lightning in a bottle. They should just stick with one guy, hope for the best, and in the meantime work on a deal for a true starter. Personally,I don't want any of these rookies or youngsters anywhere NEAR the mound at crunch time, (see Dontrelle Willis, playoffs 2003--Beckett was an exception), so eventually a move has to be made no matter what. They just need to settle on a stopgap and stick with it. I vote Cotts by default. It also lets Wunsch get some work in as well, and hopefully build up his trade value should they need to deal him.

Just keeping the seat warm for Freddy..... :D:

beckett21
05-23-2004, 12:51 AM
Originally posted by lowesox

Then again, maybe Neal will go out next time and kick ass. Wouldn't that be a nice solution?

Honestly, yes, that would be the nicest solution of all. I am a big Cotts fan, and expect good things from him. But this year is premature IMO. I just don't want to see them jerking him around and messing with his head.

samram
05-23-2004, 07:46 AM
I think what all this points to is that this should have been taken care of before the season. Maybe Robert Person would have been the guy, who knows. Maybe the Sox feel that if they put a different guy out there for each time the fifth starter's spot comes up, the opposition will have never seen him, and will be confused like the Sox hitters are when they see a pitcher for the first time. :smile:

jabrch
05-23-2004, 07:58 AM
We don't need a stinking 5. We need a #1.

bigdommer
05-23-2004, 08:37 AM
Originally posted by jabrch
We don't need a stinking 5. We need a #1.

The sox may not have an ace, but they have two guys who are legitimate number 2's (BurlyMon and E-Lo) and two guys who are legit number 3's (Garland and Shoney). The Sox don't have anyone that will overpower you like a Clemens, Schilling, or Johnson, but not many teams do. But the Sox do have four guys who can go out there and give you a chance to win every night. Now we just need a fifth guy that can do the same...give us a chance. A guy who can make it through five innings without the game being over. The Sox don't need RJ or Kris Benson, they need another Shoney or E-Lo.

PaleHoseGeorge
05-23-2004, 08:46 AM
Originally posted by jabrch
We don't need a stinking 5. We need a #1.

Well stated. You can never have enough pitching. Getting another frontline pitcher knocks the worst pitcher off the staff. Nobody ever won a pennant because they went out and got themselves a #5 starter. I feel like an idiot even typing the words. :smile:

If we're going to dream, let's dream big. We need Scott Schoenweis to be our #5. If you want to dream in a more practical manner, dream about getting somebody reliable to anchor our pathetic bullpen.

But dreaming about acquiring a new #5? Please...

voodoochile
05-23-2004, 09:12 AM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Well stated. You can never have enough pitching. Getting another frontline pitcher knocks the worst pitcher off the staff. Nobody ever won a pennant because they went out and got themselves a #5 starter. I feel like an idiot even typing the words. :smile:

If we're going to dream, let's dream big. We need Scott Schoenweis to be our #5. If you want to dream in a more practical manner, dream about getting somebody reliable to anchor our pathetic bullpen.

But dreaming about acquiring a new #5? Please...

Well said. The Sox need to pony up and get a serious stud then they can bump people down. Think of this team with a Randy Johnson at the top of the rotation and the other 4 filling in behind him. All of a sudden you have the best pitching rotation in the ALC for sure and one of the best in baseball.

No more stopgaps this team has the ability to contend for a pennant if given a few tweaks.

SoxxoS
05-23-2004, 10:10 AM
Just looking at the "stuff" for the 2 guys mentioned...I don't think Diaz has "it" to be a starter. There were rumors he was going through a "dead-arm" period, which I would reserve judgment if he was. But what I saw of him was a 89-90 mph fastball with little movement, a decent slider and an pretty bad change.

Cotts, OTOH, features a fastball that hitters just can't catch up with along with a good curve. If he can just develop his change a little more, he is going to be very good.

Unfortunately, the Sox don't have the luxury to let Cotts work his kinks out while he pitches...so KW better pull the trigger on something soon.

batmanZoSo
05-23-2004, 10:18 AM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
We seem to completely lack any sort of game plan for finding a fifth starter. If the organization was convinced Diaz and Cotts were legitimate options, wouldn't it make sense to give them a decent trial? Wright got what, five starts? Why give Diaz only two chances and Cotts only one? That really isn't enough to evaluate starting pitchers. In the end it's only going to waste confidence and options.

Cotts should get a decent chance because he's been getting hitters out in the bullpen. We gotta find some way to trick him into thinking he's still relieving.

voodoochile
05-23-2004, 10:25 AM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo
Cotts should get a decent chance because he's been getting hitters out in the bullpen. We gotta find some way to trick him into thinking he's still relieving.

He may have been a little nervous considering the short leash both Diaz and Wright got.

Still, Cotts strikes me as a lefty specialist at this point in his career. He fattened his ERA on select appearances against select opposing batters. Now that he has to face everyone including the other teams best hitters, he struggles. Same thing happened last year. Of course that was a pretty pressure packed situation to be thrown into just like the start last year in NY. If they don't trade for someone this week, he should get another chance. The Sox have 6 off days between now and the end of June, so they should be able to work around his schedule for the most part anyway.

OEO Magglio
05-23-2004, 10:49 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
He may have been a little nervous considering the short leash both Diaz and Wright got.

Still, Cotts strikes me as a lefty specialist at this point in his career. He fattened his ERA on select appearances against select opposing batters. Now that he has to face everyone including the other teams best hitters, he struggles. Same thing happened last year. Of course that was a pretty pressure packed situation to be thrown into just like the start last year in NY. If they don't trade for someone this week, he should get another chance. The Sox have 6 off days between now and the end of June, so they should be able to work around his schedule for the most part anyway.
Well I think Cotts is going to be one heck of a starting pitcher next year. Mostly because he's impressed me a lot this year. He's not just impressed me because he's been able to get guys out but because of how much he's really harnassed his control. I know he has something like 6 walks in 14 innings out of the bullpen which isn't great but a lot of those came really early and he really throws strikes now and gets ahead of the hitters. He was thrown into a tough situation last night and it didn't work out. For this year he's definitely best suited for the pen but next year I think he's going to be in the rotation and be a very good starter.

jeremyb1
05-23-2004, 11:56 AM
Originally posted by jabrch
We don't need a stinking 5. We need a #1.

I agree in theory that you can never have enough pitching but I think it's wrong to suggest we don't have a #1 right now. We have a guy that won 20 games last season, three guys among the league leaders in ERA, and a pitcher than won 19 games two years ago. We have the third best ERA in the AL. The staff isn't in shambles we just need a mediocre five starter. Diaz and Cotts are probably both answers if we'd give them more choices.

voodoochile
05-23-2004, 12:17 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
I agree in theory that you can never have enough pitching but I think it's wrong to suggest we don't have a #1 right now. We have a guy that won 20 games last season, three guys among the league leaders in ERA, and a pitcher than won 19 games two years ago. We have the third best ERA in the AL. The staff isn't in shambles we just need a mediocre five starter. Diaz and Cotts are probably both answers if we'd give them more choices.

The point wasn't that people the Sox have aren't qualified as #1's, but that the team shouldn't set it's goals so low. If you trade for a pitcher, trade for a guy who is top of the rotation material. Then if everyone bumps down a slot, it will only make the whole team better.

Lip Man 1
05-23-2004, 01:03 PM
A few thoughts...

I agree completly with PHG (and by proxy Hal) you can never have enough pitching.

Unfortunately pitching costs money, 'aces' (even if any are available) costs big money...these are the White Sox remember? A 'small market' team in the words of their own owner.

Regretably with that attitude, you'll see the Sox looking for a back end of the rotation guy...he's much cheaper. Right now I'd love an ace but the situation is getting so criticle that anybody would look good right now.

Also if you read the papers today it looks clear that Ozzie does not want to keep putting Cotts back in that 5th spot. He's convinced he's going to be a quality relief guy and doesn't want to screw him up.

What's the answer? I honestly don't know but this is getting ridiculous don't you think?

Lip

beckett21
05-23-2004, 09:48 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
The point wasn't that people the Sox have aren't qualified as #1's, but that the team shouldn't set it's goals so low. If you trade for a pitcher, trade for a guy who is top of the rotation material. Then if everyone bumps down a slot, it will only make the whole team better.

That's the answer in a nutshell. I totally agree.

CubKilla
05-23-2004, 10:28 PM
Originally posted by Meixner007
Is cotts back in the pen?

According to Ozzie during today's pregame show on AM1000, Cotts is back in the pen. As discussed here earlier and on AM1000, a 5th starter isn't really needed (barring injury) until mid June with upcoming off days. Ozzie stated that the White Sox will look within the Organization for a short term solution and outside of the Organization for a long term solution.

batmanZoSo
05-23-2004, 10:52 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
A few thoughts...

I agree completly with PHG (and by proxy Hal) you can never have enough pitching.

Unfortunately pitching costs money, 'aces' (even if any are available) costs big money...these are the White Sox remember? A 'small market' team in the words of their own owner.

Regretably with that attitude, you'll see the Sox looking for a back end of the rotation guy...he's much cheaper. Right now I'd love an ace but the situation is getting so criticle that anybody would look good right now.

Also if you read the papers today it looks clear that Ozzie does not want to keep putting Cotts back in that 5th spot. He's convinced he's going to be a quality relief guy and doesn't want to screw him up.

What's the answer? I honestly don't know but this is getting ridiculous don't you think?

Lip

They've shown no restraint getting high priced guys via trade in the middle of the season. That's the cheap way of showing you want to win. The problem is keeping whomever we get. And they will if the Sox make the playoffs. Season tickets will be up and more revenue will be expected, thus JR will put a little more money into the team.

I can totally see us getting any pitcher.

Navaro's Talent
05-23-2004, 11:12 PM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo
They've shown no restraint getting high priced guys via trade in the middle of the season. That's the cheap way of showing you want to win. The problem is keeping whomever we get. And they will if the Sox make the playoffs. Season tickets will be up and more revenue will be expected, thus JR will put a little more money into the team.

I can totally see us getting any pitcher.

I agree. If this team makes the playoffs, JR will spend the money to keep whomever we get. After the Sox made the playoffs in 2000, JR had more money. So, for the next year, he paid for David Wells. That didn't necessarily work out, but it was great that JR would actually pay for a guy like him.
If the Sox get Garcia like I think they will, he will be resigned for at least two years. The team will have the money to do so next season. Valentin is getting $5 million this year. He will not get that next year if he resigns. Koch is getting over $6 million. If he does well this year, I have a feeling that they Sox will try to resign him, but for $6 million? I don't think so. I think Kenny has learned his lesson there. I think Konerko is a FA too, but I could be wrong. If the team makes the playoffs, though, and Paulie is not traded beforehand, they will probably resign him. Hopefully, whatever happens, the Sox have enough money to resign Magglio.

lowesox
05-23-2004, 11:14 PM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo
They've shown no restraint getting high priced guys via trade in the middle of the season. That's the cheap way of showing you want to win. The problem is keeping whomever we get. And they will if the Sox make the playoffs. Season tickets will be up and more revenue will be expected, thus JR will put a little more money into the team.

I can totally see us getting any pitcher.

For all those pushing for a trade, lets all keep in mind that this team started the season 'over budget'. If we acquire somebody chances are JR will either want to trade salary for salary, or overpay on prospects (ala Alomar, Everett trades) to get the other team to swallow the salary.

If we wait however, and keep winning, and attendence goes up, and the pitcher in questions salary demands go down, uncle Jerry may be willing to make a more substantial plunge. Just something to think about.