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Jerome
05-22-2004, 11:12 PM
Last year the Cubs stole Aramis Ramirez, Randall Simon, and Kenny Lofton for Bobby Hill and some other bad prospects. The Sox need a fifth starter more than anything else, and Kris Benson will be available. Benson is a righty who never really lived up to his #1 potential, but he would be a great fifth starter. I also really like their young shortstop Jack Wilson, but we would really have to give up a lot for him. The Pirates have like no offense whatsoever, so we should give them one of our top OF prosepects.

We get: Kris Benson

Pirates get: Joe Borchard

SEALgep
05-22-2004, 11:19 PM
I'll give them C Lee straight up if they can find room in their budget, and stick Gload or Reed out in left.

Lip Man 1
05-22-2004, 11:24 PM
There is something of a misconception about how the Cubs did what they did last season.

Remember players who are waived are eligible to be signed by teams in reverse order in other words teams that have a worse record get the first chance to make pick ups...those clubs didn't want them and did nothing, the Cubs however did want guys like Tony Womack and so forth. As far as players the Cubs acquired in deals, the Cubs were willing to pick up salary which today is the real measuring stick for teams.

Clubs like Cincinnati, San Diego whoever was below the Cubs or even considering trying to make a deal (like Houston was) simply wasn't willing to take on salary.

That's what 'major market' clubs do folks...it's to bad the Sox don't think like one.

Lip

OEO Magglio
05-22-2004, 11:30 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
There is something of a misconception about how the Cubs did what they did last season.

Remember players who are waived are eligible to be signed by teams in reverse order in other words teams that have a worse record get the first chance to make pick ups...those clubs didn't want them and did nothing, the Cubs however did want guys like Tony Womack and so forth. As far as players the Cubs acquired in deals, the Cubs were willing to pick up salary which today is the real measuring stick for teams.

Clubs like Cincinnati, San Diego whoever was below the Cubs or even considering trying to make a deal (like Houston was) simply wasn't willing to take on salary.

That's what 'major market' clubs do folks...it's to bad the Sox don't think like one.

Lip
Lip, that's a great point. The cubs were able to make those deals because they did pick up salary. However, if I'm not mistaken if the sox were to trade clee for benson straight up that would be close to a salary wash and I'm almost positive the pirates would do that deal as they really want to trade Benson. Now Benson has not been great with the Pirates but a change of scenery might do wonders for him and worst case scenario he's probably a solid number 5 starter.

SEALgep
05-22-2004, 11:39 PM
Originally posted by OEO Magglio
Lip, that's a great point. The cubs were able to make those deals because they did pick up salary. However, if I'm not mistaken if the sox were to trade clee for benson straight up that would be close to a salary wash and I'm almost positive the pirates would do that deal as they really want to trade Benson. Now Benson has not been great with the Pirates but a change of scenery might do wonders for him and worst case scenario he's probably a solid number 5 starter. Ya the salaries do match up, huh. This GM thing aint so hard. :D: Of course I said above, I wouldn't mind at all if KW did that deal. I would personally prefer Garcia, but I can't tell which teams are willing to deal and what for. So if Garcia is less likely for some reason, and KW convinced Pitt to do this now, then pull the trigger my good man.

OEO Magglio
05-22-2004, 11:46 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
Ya the salaries do match up, huh. This GM thing aint so hard. :D: Of course I said above, I wouldn't mind at all if KW did that deal. I would personally prefer Garcia, but I can't tell which teams are willing to deal and what for. So if Garcia is less likely for some reason, and KW convinced Pitt to do this now, then pull the trigger my good man.
I'd also rather have garcia, but I think the pirates would be willing to deal benson now and the mariners aren't ready yet and if you can get benson a couple months before garcia that might just be worth doing instead of just throwing away games every 5th day for the next couple months. Not to mention trading lee probably helps the offense as you can stick gload in lf and haven another left handed stick in there and if gload doesn't produce(but i think he would) reed would always be down there in aaa.

SEALgep
05-22-2004, 11:48 PM
Originally posted by OEO Magglio
I'd also rather have garcia, but I think the pirates would be willing to deal benson now and the mariners aren't ready yet and if you can get benson a couple months before garcia that might just be worth doing instead of just throwing away games every 5th day for the next couple months. Not to mention trading lee probably helps the offense as you can stick gload in lf and haven another left handed stick in there and if gload doesn't produce(but i think he would) reed would always be down there in aaa. I most definitely agree. IMO, we improve our pitching and hitting with this move, if it indeed is feasible.

beckett21
05-22-2004, 11:58 PM
I still have reservations about Benson. Salaries aside, I would have to believe CLee is much more valuable than Benson at this juncture. Benson has not proved much since his injury, IMO. We would only be asking him to fill a #5 hole perhaps, but I would still want to get the best available man for the job.

I am hoping for a quick solution, but as Dawg and others have pointed out before let's not rush a deal just for the sake of making a move in haste. If Garcia is within our grasp I would say wait for him. It may be painful to wait, but better to make the right move in the long run.

OEO Magglio
05-23-2004, 12:07 AM
Originally posted by beckett21
I still have reservations about Benson. Salaries aside, I would have to believe CLee is much more valuable than Benson at this juncture. Benson has not proved much since his injury, IMO. We would only be asking him to fill a #5 hole perhaps, but I would still want to get the best available man for the job.

I am hoping for a quick solution, but as Dawg and others have pointed out before let's not rush a deal just for the sake of making a move in haste. If Garcia is within our grasp I would say wait for him. It may be painful to wait, but better to make the right move in the long run.
I see what your saying beckett, but if the sox could trade for benson right away instead of maybe having to wait a couple months for Garcia don't you think it might be worth having that 5th starter now, instead of almost having an automatic lose every 5th day for the next couple months?

MRKARNO
05-23-2004, 12:13 AM
I really dont like Benson at all. First of all, he makes just as much as Freddy Garcia (6 mil). Second of all, he isn't good enough to be better than the 5th starter on this team right now. Our worst starter thus far is Loaiza and Loaiza's doing better than Benson. Third, Benson has a 4.62 ERA with a 1.64 WHIP in the national League. That might equate to a 5.00 AL ERA. I just don't see what's so great about this guy. If KW wants to do a trade just to do a trade, but a stupid one, then this is the guy he should get. If he's smart, he'll hold out for Freddy Garcia.

I dont want Kip Wells and his 4.26 ERA and 1.6 WHIP either. I want a pitcher who's been in the AL for more than a year and has had success in the AL. I really dont know who we can get besides Garcia because a lot of the faltering AL teams besides the Mariners think they are setting up something for the future, but Benson is definately a terrible idea.

SEALgep
05-23-2004, 12:17 AM
Ya I think I'm going to have to flip flop. I like Garcia a lot, and his signability after this season is a positive factor as well. Besides, we may be able to dump Lee in a Garcia deal as well.

OEO Magglio
05-23-2004, 12:20 AM
Originally posted by SEALgep
Ya I think I'm going to have to flip flop. I like Garcia a lot, and his signability after this season is a positive factor as well. Besides, we may be able to dump Lee in a Garcia deal as well.
Well looks like I'm by myself now on this issue. I like Garcia better then Benson but the sox could probably give up less to get benson, get him sooner and I really like Benson could really use a change of scenery. Also for the offense I like the addition by subtraction theory by getting rid of carlos.

beckett21
05-23-2004, 12:50 AM
Originally posted by OEO Magglio

I see what your saying beckett, but if the sox could trade for benson right away instead of maybe having to wait a couple months for Garcia don't you think it might be worth having that 5th starter now, instead of almost having an automatic lose every 5th day for the next couple months?


Originally posted by OEO Magglio

Well looks like I'm by myself now on this issue. I like Garcia better then Benson but the sox could probably give up less to get benson, get him sooner and I really like Benson could really use a change of scenery. Also for the offense I like the addition by subtraction theory by getting rid of carlos.


I understand the logic OEO, and Benson would most definitely be an upgrade over the carousel we have at #5 right now.

But I think that we can get more for Lee than a guy a year removed from Tommy John surgery. Benson had great potential, and he still may be decent. But he comes at a much higher risk than say Garcia, with a lower ceiling IMO.

If we could get the right deal done tomorrow I would do it, but I would not overpay for Benson right now. Believe me I feel your pain every 5th day, I have been as vocal as anyone about it. I am just not convinced Benson is worth the pricetag he would command. He is more of a backup option to me. Just my opinion.

OEO Magglio
05-23-2004, 01:00 AM
Originally posted by beckett21
I understand the logic OEO, and Benson would most definitely be an upgrade over the carousel we have at #5 right now.

But I think that we can get more for Lee than a guy a year removed from Tommy John surgery. Benson had great potential, and he still may be decent. But he comes at a much higher risk than say Garcia, with a lower ceiling IMO.

If we could get the right deal done tomorrow I would do it, but I would not overpay for Benson right now. Believe me I feel your pain every 5th day, I have been as vocal as anyone about it. I am just not convinced Benson is worth the pricetag he would command. He is more of a backup option to me. Just my opinion.
I definitely understand your opinion, and I also do not want to over pay for Benson but to me trading lee would not being over paying but getting rid of the least productive of the right handed power hitters.

pearso66
05-23-2004, 01:09 AM
I think Lee would be vastly overpaying for Benson. Lee alone could probably net us Garcia, so why should we trade him for a lesser player. If we could get Benson for Borchard, ok do it, but for Lee, no. Or if possibly we could get them to take Konerko for say Benson and we eat the salary of someone else on the team, Id do that. But not Lee.

lowesox
05-23-2004, 01:20 AM
I think picking up Benson would be a quick decision we would all regret. If we get him, it would likely mean not being able to acquire any other pitchers for the rest of the season. Think about that. Because the same scenario will be probably of any major $ pitching acquisition.

Personally, I'd rather see how good this team is a month and a half from now. Who knows, we might be good enough to make a major plunge - or we might be looking for a bargain.

One other thing: I remember reading that more than a couple ML scouts said last year Carlos Lee had a higher trade value than Beltran. Things have obviously changed in between now and then - but the fact remains Lee does have decent trading value.

OEO Magglio
05-23-2004, 01:25 AM
Looks like I'm completely on my own here. The problem is I don't think carlos alone could land the sox Garcia if so I would hope kenny would jump at that, I just think benson could be the quickest and a good option as another starter, plus the fact I would love to see lee gone and Gload get some at bats.

pearso66
05-23-2004, 01:28 AM
I think the only thing you are basing Lee for Benson is that their contracts are similar. To me Benson has little value as he has not yet shown that he can be good in the major leagues, plus he is coming off a serious injury and is making a ton of money, all of those lead to very low trade value. Either they take very little for him, or they have to be willing to take on someone else's unwanted money. which is why i mentioned Konerko.

lowesox
05-23-2004, 01:31 AM
Originally posted by pearso66
I think the only thing you are basing Lee for Benson is that their contracts are similar. To me Benson has little value...

You know, one thing that's tempting about this scenario is that I really do believe a change of scenery could do Benson a world of good. And wouldn't it be nice to steal one from the pirates after they took Kip Wells from us?

I still wouldn't do it if I'm KW, but if I had a lot of cash to spend and the right guy was going the other way... maybe.

OEO Magglio
05-23-2004, 01:32 AM
Originally posted by pearso66
I think the only thing you are basing Lee for Benson is that their contracts are similar. To me Benson has little value as he has not yet shown that he can be good in the major leagues, plus he is coming off a serious injury and is making a ton of money, all of those lead to very low trade value. Either they take very little for him, or they have to be willing to take on someone else's unwanted money. which is why i mentioned Konerko.
I'm not just basing it on contracts, I'm just saying the contracts are almost a perfect match for this year. Personally I'd rather trade Carlos then trade PK. Lee is off to a pretty bad start and I don't think his value is as high as some people think. I believe for the sox offense to truely be consistant that Carlos or PK has to go and have atleast 3 left handed hitters in the everday lineup, and for me I'd rather keep Pauly then Carlos.

mantis1212
05-23-2004, 02:26 AM
Anyone who would trade Carlos Lee for Benson-what's-his-face is an blithering idiot.

Honestly guys, who the **** is Kris Benson and why do you think he's worth anything??

mantis1212
05-23-2004, 02:27 AM
OMG and I just read in this thread he's making $6mm. LOL

MRKARNO
05-23-2004, 12:08 PM
Originally posted by OEO Magglio
Lip, that's a great point. The cubs were able to make those deals because they did pick up salary. However, if I'm not mistaken if the sox were to trade clee for benson straight up that would be close to a salary wash and I'm almost positive the pirates would do that deal as they really want to trade Benson. Now Benson has not been great with the Pirates but a change of scenery might do wonders for him and worst case scenario he's probably a solid number 5 starter.

Thank god you're not our GM. I would NEVER trade Benson for Lee straight up. They'd have to throw in Craig Wilson or someone else like that if we were going to do that. Benson is garbage, has always been garbage, will always be garbage. He hasn't thrown 200 innings since 2000 and his career best ERA is 3.85. Garcia is younger than Benson, has thrown 200 innings 4 times, has 1 very good season (3.05 ERA) and two other solid seasons (near 4 ERA). He had two bad seasons in a row, but Garcia has actually been able to have 3 consecutive good to great seasons. Benson has done nothing of the like. Garcia is also 2 years younger than Benson and is doing a ton better than Benson right now.

And anyways, why the hell would we trade Lee if we're supposedly going for it this year???? THis is silly talk. Just because Lee's struggling doesnt mean he wont turn it around and be very useful from here on out. Lee hit .322ish in August and September last year. WHile his power is down, he will pick it up and it would be foolish to trade him, especially for Benson.

We can get a pitcher like Garcia for PROSPECTS because he'd only be a rent-a-player for a 3ish months. You dont trade bright young starting outfielders with 1.5 guarenteed years plus an option for another for rent-a-pitchers unless they are the Pedro's or the Randy Johnson's of the world.

MRKARNO
05-23-2004, 12:08 PM
Originally posted by mantis1212
Anyone who would trade Carlos Lee for Benson-what's-his-face is an blithering idiot.

Honestly guys, who the **** is Kris Benson and why do you think he's worth anything??

Bingo.

OEO Magglio
05-23-2004, 12:17 PM
Originally posted by MRKARNO
Thank god you're not our GM. I would NEVER trade Benson for Lee straight up. They'd have to throw in Craig Wilson or someone else like that if we were going to do that. Benson is garbage, has always been garbage, will always be garbage. He hasn't thrown 200 innings since 2000 and his career best ERA is 3.85. Garcia is younger than Benson, has thrown 200 innings 4 times, has 1 very good season (3.05 ERA) and two other solid seasons (near 4 ERA). He had two bad seasons in a row, but Garcia has actually been able to have 3 consecutive good to great seasons. Benson has done nothing of the like. Garcia is also 2 years younger than Benson and is doing a ton better than Benson right now.

And anyways, why the hell would we trade Lee if we're supposedly going for it this year???? THis is silly talk. Just because Lee's struggling doesnt mean he wont turn it around and be very useful from here on out. Lee hit .322ish in August and September last year. WHile his power is down, he will pick it up and it would be foolish to trade him, especially for Benson.

We can get a pitcher like Garcia for PROSPECTS because he'd only be a rent-a-player for a 3ish months. You dont trade bright young starting outfielders with 1.5 guarenteed years plus an option for another for rent-a-pitchers unless they are the Pedro's or the Randy Johnson's of the world.
Yes the sox should be going for it all this year and that's why Lee or Konerko must be traded. If you haven't noticed the last two years this offense has been the most inconsistant offense in baseball. The offense needs a break up of all these right handed power hitters. If the sox could get Garcia for Lee I'd much rather that then get Benson. But I'm really not sure what the Mariners would want for Garica. I'm just saying Benson could help the pitching staff if the sox can't get Garcia but yest I'd much rather have Freddy.

lowesox
05-23-2004, 12:27 PM
Originally posted by mantis1212
Anyone who would trade Carlos Lee for Benson-what's-his-face is an blithering idiot.

Honestly guys, who the **** is Kris Benson and why do you think he's worth anything??

Wow. Check out the unecessary hostility. I don't like the idea of trading for Benson either, but I hate when 12 year olds come on this site and start name calling.

MRKARNO
05-23-2004, 01:14 PM
Originally posted by OEO Magglio
Yes the sox should be going for it all this year and that's why Lee or Konerko must be traded. If you haven't noticed the last two years this offense has been the most inconsistant offense in baseball. The offense needs a break up of all these right handed power hitters. If the sox could get Garcia for Lee I'd much rather that then get Benson. But I'm really not sure what the Mariners would want for Garica. I'm just saying Benson could help the pitching staff if the sox can't get Garcia but yest I'd much rather have Freddy.

Well then who is Going to replace Lee or Konerko's bat in the lineup? As much as I like Gload I dont see this team going anywhere with him as our first basemen and we have enough trouble finding a CFer unless WIllie's playing there. If your plan is to call up Reed then it isn't a good one because while Reed might be pretty darn good eventually, resting a significant portion of your playoff hopes and your offense on a 22 year old minor leaguer is a terrible idea, no matter how good the prospect is. What we need to do is trade non-essential pitching prospects to the M's and keep all the bats we have right now. Why trade away second half hitters before the second half anyways?

Give me Carlos Lee and Paul Konerko individually over Benson any day of the week. At least we have a GM who's compitant enough not to pull off an idiot trade like that. Benson=Todd Ritchie 2.

StepsInSC
05-23-2004, 01:17 PM
Originally posted by mantis1212
Anyone who would trade Carlos Lee for Benson-what's-his-face is an blithering idiot.

Honestly guys, who the **** is Kris Benson and why do you think he's worth anything??


Originally posted by lowesox


Wow. Check out the unnecessary hostility. I don't like the idea of trading for Benson either, but I hate when 12 year olds come on this site and start name calling.

I'm not sure it was so unnecessary, it got his point across about how asinine he thinks that trade idea is. I agree with him.

OEO Magglio
05-23-2004, 01:18 PM
Originally posted by MRKARNO
Well then who is Going to replace Lee or Konerko's bat in the lineup? As much as I like Gload I dont see this team going anywhere with him as our first basemen and we have enough trouble finding a CFer unless WIllie's playing there. If your plan is to call up Reed then it isn't a good one because while Reed might be pretty darn good eventually, resting a significant portion of your playoff hopes and your offense on a 22 year old minor leaguer is a terrible idea, no matter how good the prospect is. What we need to do is trade non-essential pitching prospects to the M's and keep all the bats we have right now. Why trade away second half hitters before the second half anyways?

Give me Carlos Lee and Paul Konerko individually over Benson any day of the week. At least we have a GM who's compitant enough not to pull off an idiot trade like that. Benson=Todd Ritchie 2.
If carlos were to be traded, yes I'd like to see Ross Gload play in left field. Another left handed bat in the lineup and that would help the sox more then having these homerun hitting righties, break up the right handers. The sox won't go anywhere with this offense as it is. Sure they'll get hot for a while but they'll get cold again, that's what they always do and will happen again.

mantis1212
05-23-2004, 01:19 PM
Originally posted by lowesox
Wow. Check out the unecessary hostility. I don't like the idea of trading for Benson either, but I hate when 12 year olds come on this site and start name calling.

Sorry if I was rude but I'm still trying to figure out why people want Kris Benson. People bash KW all the time, and then they pitch ideas like this? GMAB

SEALgep
05-23-2004, 01:44 PM
Originally posted by StepsInSC
I'm not sure it was so unnecessary, it got his point across about how asinine he thinks that trade idea is. I agree with him. Not only is it unneccesary, it's a poor strategy to getting a point across. If your point is valid, that should be enough by itself.

SEALgep
05-23-2004, 01:46 PM
Originally posted by mantis1212
Sorry if I was rude but I'm still trying to figure out why people want Kris Benson. People bash KW all the time, and then they pitch ideas like this? GMAB I'm not a Benson fan as much as I am a trade Lee kind of fan. I like Lee, I really do, but he doesn't fit this offense, and we have good options to replace him. If we can dish him to Seattle for Garcia, pretty much everyone would prefer that.

OEO Magglio
05-23-2004, 01:46 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
Not only is it unneccesary, it's a poor strategy to getting a point across. If your point is valid, that should be enough by itself.
Seal right now I feel like you defending Rowand's defense. :D:

OEO Magglio
05-23-2004, 01:47 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
I'm not a Benson fan as much as I am a trade Lee kind of fan. I like Lee, I really do, but he doesn't fit this offense, and we have good options to replace him. If we can dish him to Seattle for Garcia, pretty much everyone would prefer that.
Ditto and that's what I've been trying to say, I guess I didn't put it right, thanks for getting that across.

SEALgep
05-23-2004, 01:50 PM
Originally posted by OEO Magglio
Seal right now I feel like you defending Rowand's defense. :D: Lol. Stick to your guns. You don't have to put up with "your stupid" comments because of what you think. I really don't prefer Benson, but we need a fifth starter, and I think cutting Lee loose helps us out. I may be alone on that, but it's not as if we didn't clearly state that Garcia should be option number 1 if at all possible.

StepsInSC
05-23-2004, 02:36 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
Not only is it unneccesary, it's a poor strategy to getting a point across. If your point is valid, that should be enough by itself.

I look at it as more of a hyperbole than an insult. He didn't name anyone specifically and call them an idiot. Yes I'm aware he said "if you ____, then you're a blithering idiot", but if it were directed at me I'm not so insecure that I'd assume he actually thought I myself was an idiot.

lowesox
05-23-2004, 02:40 PM
Originally posted by StepsInSC
I look at it as more of a hyperbole than an insult. He didn't name anyone specifically and call them an idiot. Yes I'm aware he said "if you ____, then you're a blithering idiot", but if it were directed at me I'm not so insecure that I'd assume he actually thought I myself was an idiot.

He already apologized so it's a moot point. The thing is, it has nothing to do with insecurity. I'd just rather see people argue there points intelligently instead of slinging insults. Like SEALgep says, if you have a good point, you should be able to back it up. After all, isn't that why we come to WSI?

SEALgep
05-23-2004, 02:42 PM
Originally posted by StepsInSC
I look at it as more of a hyperbole than an insult. He didn't name anyone specifically and call them an idiot. Yes I'm aware he said "if you ____, then you're a blithering idiot", but if it were directed at me I'm not so insecure that I'd assume he actually thought I myself was an idiot. I'm not going to make an issue out of this, but when you quote someone or reply right after someone makes a comment, and then say anyone who makes a comment like that is an idiot, I don't think you have to be a brainiac to understand what was meant. Besides, the person already acknowledged what he said and attempted retribution for taking it to that level.