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lowesox
05-22-2004, 06:57 PM
Should the Sox give Cotts another start? I tend to think that at this point, they'll have to. But what if his next start has the same result as tonight's?

I'd really like to see Rauch get one more shot. But at this point, if something doesn't work out between Rauch or Cotts, we'll definitely have to look outside the organization.

SEALgep
05-22-2004, 07:01 PM
KW is way ahead of you I'm sure.

Palehose13
05-22-2004, 07:05 PM
Originally posted by lowesox
Should the Sox give Cotts another start? I tend to think that at this point, they'll have to. But what if his next start has the same result as tonight's?

I'd really like to see Rauch get one more shot. But at this point, if something doesn't work out between Rauch or Cotts, we'll definitely have to look outside the organization.

Methinks this will provoke a trade for a SP REALLY soon.

Daver
05-22-2004, 07:11 PM
Don Cooper was not going to allow Neal to go more than four innings, regardless of the score, and he stuck to that. The question is more like will they rest Neal and let him throw on the side to make his next start more of a real start.

TaylorStSox
05-22-2004, 07:13 PM
I think he has to get another start.

The Twins had a good approach at him. They made him throw alot of pitches by fouling a ton of stuff off. Actually, he looked good, stuff wise.

We still have J.R. He deserves a shot before we make a move IMO.

SEALgep
05-22-2004, 07:24 PM
Originally posted by TaylorStSox
I think he has to get another start.

The Twins had a good approach at him. They made him throw alot of pitches by fouling a ton of stuff off. Actually, he looked good, stuff wise.

We still have J.R. He deserves a shot before we make a move IMO. Why does he deserve a shot? We have other guys in the minors throwing better than him. It's one thing to not give up on him, but we don't owe him anything. I want the best person that gives us a chance to win. We have other options, but the most appealing comes via trade.

beckett21
05-22-2004, 07:35 PM
Originally posted by TaylorStSox
I think he has to get another start.

The Twins had a good approach at him. They made him throw alot of pitches by fouling a ton of stuff off. Actually, he looked good, stuff wise.

We still have J.R. He deserves a shot before we make a move IMO.

How many more people do we have to bring up to prove they are not ready for playoff-intensity baseball?

How many times do you have to beat your head against a brick wall until you figure out it hurts?

If the answer was within, I would hope it would have been found by now.

It is not from within, for this year. It is not going to be found in our system. Period.

TaylorStSox
05-22-2004, 07:43 PM
Originally posted by beckett21
How many more people do we have to bring up to prove they are not ready for playoff-intensity baseball?

How many times do you have to beat your head against a brick wall until you figure out it hurts?

If the answer was within, I would hope it would have been found by now.

It is not from within, for this year. It is not going to be found in our system. Period.

He's pitched well in the majors when he's had chances. Trades don't magically happen. Especially when a team seems so desperate.

Munoz is obviously an option as well. However, Rauch is next in order. His minor league numbers are pretty good. He's been in the ML before and has pitched well.

We don't NEED to make a trade for 3-4 more weeks IMO.

SEALgep
05-22-2004, 07:48 PM
Originally posted by TaylorStSox
He's pitched well in the majors when he's had chances. Trades don't magically happen. Especially when a team seems so desperate.

Munoz is obviously an option as well. However, Rauch is next in order. His minor league numbers are pretty good. He's been in the ML before and has pitched well.

We don't NEED to make a trade for 3-4 more weeks IMO. 3-4 weeks? We need a pitcher for the season, and Rauch isn't going to cut it. As I said, there are better options than Rauch, and plenty of pitchers pitching better than him at this point. So how do you figure that he is next in line? Seniority? That doesn't cut it in the ML.

beckett21
05-22-2004, 07:51 PM
Originally posted by TaylorStSox
He's pitched well in the majors when he's had chances. Trades don't magically happen. Especially when a team seems so desperate.

Munoz is obviously an option as well. However, Rauch is next in order. His minor league numbers are pretty good. He's been in the ML before and has pitched well.

We don't NEED to make a trade for 3-4 more weeks IMO.

What I am wondering is, are these guys auditioning for *American Idol* or something?

Trades do not magically happen. Correct. Well then, I guess we just need to SETTLE on ONE GUY and let him be the sacrificial lamb, instead of giving every johnny-come-lately two starts and banish him back to oblivion again. That does nothing for anyone's confidence, and nobody really learns anything. The Sox learn nothing about the pitcher and how he responds to adversity, and the pitcher basically learns nothing about pitching in the majors except that they got their a** whooped.

Stick with Cotts. Stick with Diaz. Whatever. Just stick with ONE guy, until we can make a move. This Charlotte Shuttle idea is ridiculous. Who's next after Rauch and Munoz? Open tryouts??

And BTW, if things continue as is with the 5th starter hole we will look a LOT more desperate in 3-4 weeks. That is not a doomsday, sky-is-falling comment, but the longer a wound festers the worse it gets.

Stick with one guy until we can make a move. It's obvious we are not going to strike gold here, just stick it out and at least let one guy learn what it's all about.

TaylorStSox
05-22-2004, 08:00 PM
I'm saying there's a month long window to audition guys to be a stopgap until we can make a move that's not 1 sided.

Obviously a trade's our best option. However, we don't necassarily need to make it for a while.


Regardless, I think Rauch can get the job done. I think Cotts can too. He needs some time to build his arm strength. He had good velocity on his fastball. He was pressing to get his breaking ball down and overthrew it a few times. He can be effectively wild. Like I said, the Twins had a good approach at the plate tonight.

beckett21
05-22-2004, 08:10 PM
Originally posted by TaylorStSox
I'm saying there's a month long window to audition guys to be a stopgap until we can make a move that's not 1 sided.

Obviously a trade's our best option. However, we don't necassarily need to make it for a while.


Regardless, I think Rauch can get the job done. I think Cotts can too. He needs some time to build his arm strength. He had good velocity on his fastball. He was pressing to get his breaking ball down and overthrew it a few times. He can be effectively wild. Like I said, the Twins had a good approach at the plate tonight.

I'd like to believe you are right. I just don't know about Cotts. He has been great out of the pen, but with the spotlight on him he gets the deer-in-the-headlights look about him. It may not be fair to point to his performance last season, but he just does not seem ready for a prime-time role.

To expect anyone out of AA or AAA to be ready to step into a prominent role is unfair anyway. Rauch was my first choice going back to spring, but there must be a logical reason he did not get his chance. If there is a reason he was not ready, then it would be unfair to him to bring him up to get shelled and have everybody get down on him even more.

I understand your point, but I just think that the whole auditioning thing is pointless. The auditioning should have been done in spring training. Now we just need someone to give us 6 innings a start and keep us in the game. Not knowing if you will be making your next start or going back to the minors does nothing for confidence.

MisterB
05-22-2004, 08:21 PM
Originally posted by Palehose13
Methinks this will provoke a trade for a SP REALLY soon.

Keep in mind that we needed another starter last year and KW failed to scrounge one up, so don't be too sure.


Originally posted by Daver
Don Cooper was not going to allow Neal to go more than four innings, regardless of the score, and he stuck to that.

Luckily we didn't have that 'pitching-so-good-let's-leave-him-out-there" temptation to worry about.

soxtalker
05-22-2004, 08:33 PM
Originally posted by beckett21
....

And BTW, if things continue as is with the 5th starter hole we will look a LOT more desperate in 3-4 weeks. That is not a doomsday, sky-is-falling comment, but the longer a wound festers the worse it gets.

....

While we may be may be more desperate in 3-4 weeks, we may also find that one of the guys doing well in the minors will do well here. The only way to find out is to give them a chance. The other reason to wait 3-4 weeks is that allows time for some of the teams to decide that they aren't going to be in the division or wildcard races.

beckett21
05-22-2004, 08:36 PM
Originally posted by soxtalker
While we may be may be more desperate in 3-4 weeks, we may also find that one of the guys doing well in the minors will do well here. The only way to find out is to give them a chance. The other reason to wait 3-4 weeks is that allows time for some of the teams to decide that they aren't going to be in the division or wildcard races.

I would love nothing more than to see one of our own succeed.


My question is, what do you propose: give everyone under the sun one or two starts, or stick with one guy?

I am all for giving a chance. Give them a REAL chance. What Diaz got in my estimation was not a real chance.

SEALgep
05-22-2004, 08:57 PM
Originally posted by soxtalker
While we may be may be more desperate in 3-4 weeks, we may also find that one of the guys doing well in the minors will do well here. The only way to find out is to give them a chance. The other reason to wait 3-4 weeks is that allows time for some of the teams to decide that they aren't going to be in the division or wildcard races. That's most certainly the reason why we haven't been able to trade for a starter at this point IMO. However, I question whether a minor leaguer will show he has the stuff to come up and get the job done for the rest of the season in a playoff push. Diaz had the best credentials one could hope for to be considered ready, and he obviously wasn't ready. That's not to say someone else isn't ready, but it appears our best case scenerio involves trading for a starter.

Frater Perdurabo
05-22-2004, 09:32 PM
Put Cotts back in the pen. He was doing quite well there. I just hope that his confidence is not shot.

IMHO, the time to find your starting pitchers is not during the season when you are in a pennant race. Yes, I know it's only May, but the Sox are in a race with the Twins. The time to figure out who should be on your staff is during spring training or after you call it quits for the season and begin to load up for next year.

As we all saw last season, before the "collapse" in Minnesota, the Sox blew a number of games that they should or at least could have won. Winning those games early could have made the September games with Minnesota meaningless. Every game counts. The Sox don't have the luxury of trying a revolving door approach at this point.

The only option at this point, IMHO, is to trade for an established major leage starting pitcher, preferably a legitimate ace or #2 who can push the rest of the starters back in the rotation.

Or, if they want to throw away the division right now, they can continue to throw things at the wall and hope something sticks. :angry:

Lip Man 1
05-22-2004, 09:35 PM
I don't know how many more times the 5th starter is slated to go but even if it's only ten more times the rest of this season that's a lot of games to potentially give up on given the results of the past two years (5th starters now 3-17).

At what point does the team say 'we can't afford to do this anymore?...'

Lip

Joel Perez
05-22-2004, 09:37 PM
IMO, Cotts is resilient. Otherwise his success in the pen is a fluke.

Cotts will bounce back. Credit this one to a) Twins trying to win at least one game this series, and b)Maybe a case of Cotts being nervous/wild/etc.

What is more worrisome is Cliff Politte. Another bad outing, 3 runs in an inning of work, his ERA is near 7. This guy has good stuff, but it's maddening that he is still struggling. He's making Billy Koch look like Dan Quisenberry.

Leave Cotts in the five-slot and let him work it out. The bullpen is still set with Wunsch and Marte as your left-handed relievers. Try to work with Cliff and get him straightened out or else he may be out of a job come June.

The Sox should be more worried about Cliff than Neal right now.

IMO--there is enough offense to trade for a #5, otherwise your options are Felix Diaz, Neal Cotts...or give Jon Rauch another go at it.

Frater Perdurabo
05-22-2004, 09:40 PM
The first mistake was not getting additional starting pitching during the offseason or, at the latest, during spring training. Other than self-imposed budget "realities" , what's wrong with going into the season with six or even seven starting pitchers?

Shoney is an unexpected surprise. He may be this year's version of Loaiza, the "scrap heap special." But the Sox can't continue to try to work magic traicks by pulling rabbits out of a hat, and to try to win the division with a revolving door #5 starter is like trying to win with smoke and mirrors. So, because K-Dub can't go back in time to spring training or the offseason, he needs to get on the phone and make a deal for an established quality starting pitcher. All that's at stake is the 2004 season.

SEALgep
05-22-2004, 09:43 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
I don't know how many more times the 5th starter is slated to go but even if it's only ten more times the rest of this season that's a lot of games to potentially give up on given the results of the past two years (5th starters now 3-17).

At what point does the team say 'we can't afford to do this anymore?...'

Lip If teams were dealing, we would have already made a deal for a fifth starter. KW is working the phones, but he can't make people trade their players, unless of course we over pay, which isn't a good thing either. The team knows the drill and measures are being taken IMO. It's like you said, a matter of time, and obviously the sooner the better. However, even if a fifth starter were only needed ten times, if we were able to get a pretty good starter, like Garcia, then it would put us at even more of an advantage because it could provide more rest throughout the season for our starters between starts. At least I hope that would be a good thing. If guys could go well with the extra rest, then it would bold well, IMO, for a playoff run, assuming we did indeed win the division. It's all good in theory, but we'll have to see what happens. The point is though, KW knows what is going on, and he is doing his best to make a deal that helps our club out without hurting us in the process. I have confidence.

Frank the Tank
05-22-2004, 09:44 PM
I know Cotts is a major-league pitcher, but does anyone else think the sox have really pushed this kid's buttons? First, they start him in a pivitol game last year in Yankee Stadium. This year they put him in another pressure cooker against the Twins. Are the sox trying to ruin his confidence? I think the sox conceded this game tonight before they even played. I think they just figured that Sox-killer Radke would have his stuff and just throw Cotts out there for the hell of it and hope for the best. I mean, they went into the game with the expectation that Neal would not go more than 3-4 innings. How many games does a team win when the starter only goes 4 innings?

Frater Perdurabo
05-22-2004, 09:49 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
KW is working the phones, but he can't make people trade their players, unless of course we over pay, which isn't a good thing either. ...The point is though, KW knows what is going on, and he is doing his best to make a deal that helps our club out without hurting us in the process. I have confidence.

I just don't share your confidence right now. I hope I am proven wrong and you are proven right, and soon, for the good of the team. I hope the Sox don't piss away the division in May, when they could be making their move right now. With the way the rest of the starters have been pitching, and considering the Twins' injury situation, the Sox are in prime position to put together a nice winning streak and pull ahead by several games. Carpe Diem, Kenny.

SEALgep
05-22-2004, 09:52 PM
Originally posted by Frater Perdurabo
The first mistake was not getting additional starting pitching during the offseason or, at the latest, during spring training. Other than self-imposed budget "realities" , what's wrong with going into the season with six or even seven starting pitchers?

Shoney is an unexpected surprise. He may be this year's version of Loaiza, the "scrap heap special." But the Sox can't continue to try to work magic traicks by pulling rabbits out of a hat, and to try to win the division with a revolving door #5 starter is like trying to win with smoke and mirrors. So, because K-Dub can't go back in time to spring training or the offseason, he needs to get on the phone and make a deal for an established quality starting pitcher. All that's at stake is the 2004 season. 6 or 7 pitchers starters? Well everyone has that, whether they are legitimate or not is another story. Every team would want that if it were feasible, as well as having three Beltrans in the outfield, and maybe an additonal one in case one goes down. Blaming KW for not having a number five isn't fair. Wright in ST looked like he was going to be very serviceable in that role, and it's not as if he hadn't done it before. Schoney wasn't really a surprise to KW because he predicted his success, and saw it before they acquired him. As far as our situation now, KW is working his magic on the phone, but he needs to be given some leeway before we all freak out. We don't want to overpay, and the timing kind of sucks right now, because most teams are waiting until the deadline. It will hopefully work out in a timely matter, but I wouldn't be calling for KW's neck right now.

beckett21
05-22-2004, 10:00 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
KW is working the phones


Originally posted by SEALgep
KW is working his magic on the phone

Not trying to be a smart-ass here, OK yes I am...are you like his personal assistant or something, or do you work for SBC?

Or is he working the telethon with Jerry Lewis?

:)

(I just couldn't help myself!)

Joel Perez
05-22-2004, 10:08 PM
Why can't we draft someone like Josh Beckett to the Sox?!?!!?? :angry: :angry: :angry:

It starts with the almighty draft. You can NEVER have too many good pitchers in the stable.

SEALgep
05-22-2004, 10:13 PM
Originally posted by Joel Perez
Why can't we draft someone like Josh Beckett to the Sox?!?!!?? :angry: :angry: :angry:

It starts with the almighty draft. You can NEVER have too many good pitchers in the stable. Because we never fall far enough to draft among the top 5.

beckett21
05-22-2004, 10:13 PM
Originally posted by Joel Perez
Why can't we draft someone like Josh Beckett to the Sox?!?!!?? :angry: :angry: :angry:

It starts with the almighty draft. You can NEVER have too many good pitchers in the stable.

Why would you want Josh Beckett?? Don't you know what his career record was before this season? That guy got lucky last postseason!

:)

SEALgep
05-22-2004, 10:16 PM
Originally posted by beckett21
Not trying to be a smart-ass here, OK yes I am...are you like his personal assistant or something, or do you work for SBC?

Or is he working the telethon with Jerry Lewis?

:)

(I just couldn't help myself!) Actually I don't know that he is, but he said he is always looking to make the club better, and it has been implied by people, like Hawk, that a trade may have to occur in order to pick up a pitcher. It's not a secret. It's been KW's trade mark that he is completely willing to make moves, and it's pretty obvious we need one here. I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure he's looking for someone to fill the void. And the only way to do it is to work the phone smart ass. :D:

beckett21
05-22-2004, 10:22 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
Actually I don't know that he is, but he said he is always looking to make the club better, and it has been implied by people, like Hawk, that a trade may have to occur in order to pick up a pitcher. It's not a secret. It's been KW's trade mark that he is completely willing to make moves, and it's pretty obvious we need one here. I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure he's looking for someone to fill the void. And the only way to do it is to work the phone smart ass. :D:

LOL....just wondering if you had a wire-tap or something!

And I agree KW is probably working behind the scenes.

Just because we may pretend we don't have a problem, it does not solve the problem. Burying our head in the sand does not make us look less desperate, just more stupid. Everyone and their grandmother knows we have to make a move here. The sooner the better, if we have a good match. Amen.

SEALgep
05-22-2004, 10:27 PM
Originally posted by beckett21
LOL....just wondering if you had a wire-tap or something!

And I agree KW is probably working behind the scenes.

Just because we may pretend we don't have a problem, it does not solve the problem. Burying our head in the sand does not make us look less desperate, just more stupid. Everyone and their grandmother knows we have to make a move here. The sooner the better, if we have a good match. Amen. I don't think they are trying to hide the fact that a move is needed. I just think KW would rather do it in privacy with no media distractions tampering with deals. Kind of why he doesn't want Magg's renegotiations to be public. When they do, they usually fall apart. I have no problem with secrecy as long as there is something to keep a secret, and nothing doesn't constitute a secret. We'll see what happens, but I'm sure something will happen soon. However, we'll probably see another start by Cotts against Anaheim before it's all set and done. We'll just have to see, but it's not as if we see something KW doesn't.

beckett21
05-22-2004, 10:46 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
I don't think they are trying to hide the fact that a move is needed. I just think KW would rather do it in privacy with no media distractions tampering with deals. Kind of why he doesn't want Magg's renegotiations to be public. When they do, they usually fall apart. I have no problem with secrecy as long as there is something to keep a secret, and nothing doesn't constitute a secret. We'll see what happens, but I'm sure something will happen soon. However, we'll probably see another start by Cotts against Anaheim before it's all set and done. We'll just have to see, but it's not as if we see something KW doesn't.

By my comment I did not mean that I wanted KW to broadcast his plans to the world. I was alluding to the comment that we should wait so that we don't look so desperate which was implied before. I may be mixing threads here, they are getting redundant.

If things get worse we will only look more desperate later.

Of course it is no secret. There is nothing to hide. Make the move.

SEALgep
05-22-2004, 10:55 PM
Originally posted by beckett21
By my comment I did not mean that I wanted KW to broadcast his plans to the world. I was alluding to the comment that we should wait so that we don't look so desperate which was implied before. I may be mixing threads here, they are getting redundant.

If things get worse we will only look more desperate later.

Of course it is no secret. There is nothing to hide. Make the move. I don't recall implying that, but if I did, I certainly didn't mean to. It looks as though we're on the same page. Times up Kenny. Get on it. :D: But seriously Kenny, get on it. :smile:

beckett21
05-22-2004, 11:00 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
I don't recall implying that, but if I did, I certainly didn't mean to. It looks as though we're on the same page. Times up Kenny. Get on it. :D: But seriously Kenny, get on it. :smile:

No you weren't the one who implied it.

You and I are on the same page (for once!) :D:

lowesox
05-23-2004, 12:08 AM
The more I think about it, the more I think Cotts should get at least one more start. AFter all, I'd say he's probably our best pitching prospect right now (given Honel's health concerns) and he's been better than solid in the early part of this season.

The Sox decided he was good enough to start today. And lets face it, physically he wasn't ready - the fact that he could only pitch a max of 4 innings proves that. Now, they've got to give him a fair shake. I say give him 2 more starts. And if he's still doing awful - let's make a deal.

pearso66
05-23-2004, 12:23 AM
I said it today during chat, that I think KW is out there trying to get Garcia. They are looking to get a SS, and according to the Trib, (i know, reliable source ), the Cubs are looking to get Aurilia, so we can send them Valentin. I also think that if they dont want Jose, they may be willing to take Lee, as he could fill in in LF, 1st and DH.

If we do get this deal done, I say we keep Cotts, Wunsch and Marte in the pen, and put Politte on waivers. And before anyone goes off on 3 lefties in the pen, we had Wunsch, Marte and Schoeneweis in the pen last year.

Oh and lastly, those of you who keep complaining aobut Cotts going 3, its not like they thought thats all the potential he could have, he was given a set amount of pitches because he isnt stretched. They dont want him to get hurt.

lowesox
05-23-2004, 12:34 AM
I think we have to send more than Valentin for Garcia. Probably a prospect too. Maybe Rauch?

lowesox
05-23-2004, 12:36 AM
Originally posted by lowesox
I think we have to send more than Valentin for Garcia. Probably a prospect too. Maybe Rauch?

Hey! I just got my 1000th post. What did I win? A free meatloaf dinner?

How many do you need to be an Elder?

OEO Magglio
05-23-2004, 12:37 AM
Originally posted by lowesox
I think we have to send more than Valentin for Garcia. Probably a prospect too. Maybe Rauch?
If that's all the sox would have to send to the Mariners for Freddy I'd do that in a heartbeat, even though I'm not crazy about trading Jose. I know this has been mentioned before but if the sox are going to make a deal for Freddy why not try adding Randy Winn, a true centerfielder who's left handed, has good speed, and is not a power hitter.

pearso66
05-23-2004, 12:41 AM
If they'll give us Winn and Garcia for Valentin and Lee, Id do it right away

SEALgep
05-23-2004, 06:40 AM
Originally posted by OEO Magglio
If that's all the sox would have to send to the Mariners for Freddy I'd do that in a heartbeat, even though I'm not crazy about trading Jose. I know this has been mentioned before but if the sox are going to make a deal for Freddy why not try adding Randy Winn, a true centerfielder who's left handed, has good speed, and is not a power hitter. I don't want to be stuck with Randy Winn the next couple years. He's a decent player and all, but I think we could better than him, and his contract extends into next year. Too much money for what he produces IMO.

lowesox
05-23-2004, 10:49 AM
Originally posted by SEALgep
I don't want to be stuck with Randy Winn the next couple years. He's a decent player and all, but I think we could better than him, and his contract extends into next year. Too much money for what he produces IMO.

How much money does he make?

OEO Magglio
05-23-2004, 10:58 AM
Originally posted by lowesox
How much money does he make?
He only makes 3.5 million and if the sox were to trade Lee, they'd possibly have two outfield spots open if maggs didn't resign, obviously reed will be ready next year but he's not a true centerfielder and winn is, so you'd leave winn in center, reed in left and then if maggs resigned you'd have him in right, if not the sox would have to go and find another right fielder. Basically if Lee is traded Winn's contract going into next year really doesn't hurt at all.

MRKARNO
05-23-2004, 11:13 AM
Originally posted by OEO Magglio
He only makes 3.5 million and if the sox were to trade Lee, they'd possibly have two outfield spots open if maggs didn't resign, obviously reed will be ready next year but he's not a true centerfielder and winn is, so you'd leave winn in center, reed in left and then if maggs resigned you'd have him in right, if not the sox would have to go and find another right fielder. Basically if Lee is traded Winn's contract going into next year really doesn't hurt at all.

If you trade Lee and lose Maggs then that outfield could be a pretty damn sorry one next year.

OEO Magglio
05-23-2004, 11:29 AM
Originally posted by MRKARNO
If you trade Lee and lose Maggs then that outfield could be a pretty damn sorry one next year.
Carlos Lee sucks and won't be worth the 8 million he will be getting paid next year.

Lip Man 1
05-23-2004, 01:09 PM
Looking at Ozzie's comment today it's pretty clear he doesn't want Cotts in that #5 slot. He's concerned about ruining him. He obviously is sold on the idea that Cotts is going to turn into a fine relief guy.

Lip