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View Full Version : Big Unit to the South Side?


Kuzman
05-21-2004, 01:44 PM
http://www.prosportsdaily.com/mlb/mlbrumors.html

Chicago Tribune columnist Phil Rogers (registration required): "How about a deal that brings Johnson and Finley from Arizona for Carlos Lee, Neal Cotts, an outfielder from the minor-league stable that includes Jeremy Reed, Brian Anderson, Ryan Sweeney and Joe Borchard, and maybe another minor-league pitcher? Then the Sox move Ordonez to the highest bidder."

What do you guys think?

bestkosher
05-21-2004, 01:50 PM
a little late, this was talkedabout yesterday here

SEALgep
05-21-2004, 01:50 PM
I think Phil is a moron. He wants to give up guys like Cotts and some of our top prospects. Don't get me wrong, Johnson would be a much welcome addition. However, with a $16 million price tag next year, it doesn't seem worth it. Would you rather have Johnson or Maggs next year? Personally Maggs is a no brainer even with Johnson as dominant as he is.

Brian26
05-21-2004, 01:51 PM
It's a stupid trade for several reasons. And, as was pointed out, it was discussed yesterday.

Kuzman
05-21-2004, 01:52 PM
ok thats twice now, im not on these boards all the time, and im not giong to back track to see if one little discussion has been talked about already.

SoxxoS
05-21-2004, 01:56 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
I think Phil is a moron. He wants to give up guys like Cotts and some of our top prospects. Don't get me wrong, Johnson would be a much welcome addition. However, with a $16 million price tag next year, it doesn't seem worth it. Would you rather have Johnson or Maggs next year? Personally Maggs is a no brainer even with Johnson as dominant as he is.

Phil posts on here and he is a good guy. He is just throwing rumors out there for sake of discussion and entertainment.

CHISOXFAN13
05-21-2004, 01:58 PM
Originally posted by Kuzman
ok thats twice now, im not on these boards all the time, and im not giong to back track to see if one little discussion has been talked about already.

Is it that difficult to hit the search button and out Randy Johnson's name in the box?

It would actually be a lot quicker than typing the whole message.

SEALgep
05-21-2004, 02:00 PM
Originally posted by SoxxoS
Phil posts on here and he is a good guy. He is just throwing rumors out there for sake of discussion and entertainment. Alright, maybe he's not a moron. But Phil, that trade is not only unlikely, it hurts us. We are better off using whatever prospects to acquire Garcia which would cost us less this year and most likely next year, as we should be able to extend, and for less than $16 million. Although I like Finley, we can do better. I would just assume use our outfield prospects than to trade them for him.

mantis1212
05-21-2004, 02:08 PM
Originally posted by Kuzman
ok thats twice now, im not on these boards all the time, and im not giong to back track to see if one little discussion has been talked about already.

Kind of ironic that there was two posts to tell you that you doubled up a post, isn't it?

Dadawg_77
05-21-2004, 02:12 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
I think Phil is a moron. He wants to give up guys like Cotts and some of our top prospects. Don't get me wrong, Johnson would be a much welcome addition. However, with a $16 million price tag next year, it doesn't seem worth it. Would you rather have Johnson or Maggs next year? Personally Maggs is a no brainer even with Johnson as dominant as he is.

Well we can replace Mags, but not don't have the kids to become a top tier starter.

SEALgep
05-21-2004, 02:45 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
Well we can replace Mags, but not don't have the kids to become a top tier starter. So you would rather have Johnson than Maggs? We have some kids who can be pretty good starters, and I would rather have the cheaper, younger Garcia who can also be attained by trade and is more likely to extend due to age, price, and relationship with Ozzie and Cora. He is a top tier pitcher and a work horse.

duke of dorwood
05-21-2004, 02:47 PM
:chunks

IN CAPITAL LETTERS

Dadawg_77
05-21-2004, 03:35 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
So you would rather have Johnson than Maggs? We have some kids who can be pretty good starters, and I would rather have the cheaper, younger Garcia who can also be attained by trade and is more likely to extend due to age, price, and relationship with Ozzie and Cora. He is a top tier pitcher and a work horse.

First off Garcia is not a top tier starter. His stats are padded by SAFCO field. His K rate is too low to be a top notch starter. He is a good middle of staff pitcher. Not worth the 6.8 million he is currently being paid.

Secondly, the OF prospects will replace Mags at a higher level then any of the pitching prospect becoming an ace type pitcher next year, even if we give one up in this trade.

SEALgep
05-21-2004, 03:44 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
First off Garcia is not a top tier starter. His stats are padded by SAFCO field. His K rate is too low to be a top notch starter. He is a good middle of staff pitcher. Not worth the 6.8 million he is currently being paid.

Secondly, the OF prospects will replace Mags at a higher level then any of the pitching prospect becoming an ace type pitcher next year, even if we give one up in this trade. First of all, K rate doesn't define a top tier pitcher. But if it did, he has 778 K's compared to 372 walks. That's pretty good. He is a top of the rotation type pitcher. He has four 200+ inning seasons and three consecutive. He is pitching very well right now as well. So if Garcia isn't worth $7 mill right now, is Johnson worth $16 mill next season?

I have high hopes for our outfield prospects, but most aren't ready yet, and the ones that are (mainly Reed) aren't the same type of player Maggs is. So to say that we'll easily replace Maggs with them is a major assumption. Johnson is pitching great, but will he hold up next year with a price tag of $16 mill? I would rather have two Garcias at the same price.

Dadawg_77
05-21-2004, 03:51 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
First of all, K rate doesn't define a top tier pitcher. But if it did, he has 778 K's compared to 372 walks. That's pretty good. He is a top of the rotation type pitcher. He has four 200+ inning seasons and three consecutive. He is pitching very well right now as well. So if Garcia isn't worth $7 mill right now, is Johnson worth $16 mill next season?

I have high hopes for our outfield prospects, but most aren't ready yet, and the ones that are (mainly Reed) aren't the same type of player Maggs is. So to say that we'll easily replace Maggs with them is a major assumption. Johnson is pitching great, but will he hold up next year with a price tag of $16 mill? I would rather have two Garcias at the same price.

K per inning. He will get rocked in a park outside SAFCO, have an ERA around 4.50. He isn't top tier, no matter what you want to believe.

The Sox need an ace, Johnson while not the perfect solution, I believe one of the Oakland Big Three will be on the Market this year, is a better one then any person we have in the minors. So if I was limited to Johnson vs Garcia vs Minor Leaguer, I have to take Johnson.

SEALgep
05-21-2004, 03:56 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
K per inning. He will get rocked in a park outside SAFCO, have an ERA around 4.50. He isn't top tier, no matter what you want to believe.

The Sox need an ace, Johnson while not the perfect solution, I believe one of the Oakland Big Three will be on the Market this year, is a better one then any person we have in the minors. So if I was limited to Johnson vs Garcia vs Minor Leaguer, I have to take Johnson. The you have to be prepared to revamp the team. Garcia is a better pitcher than you are giving him credit for. Besides, a 331 left field and a 327 right field is hardly a "pitchers ball park".

Dadawg_77
05-21-2004, 03:59 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
The you have to be prepared to revamp the team. Garcia is a better pitcher than you are giving him credit for. Besides, a 331 left field and a 327 right field is hardly a "pitchers ball park".

Teams score 5% less runs at SAFECO then league average.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/SEA/attend.shtml

SEALgep
05-21-2004, 04:03 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
Teams score 5% less runs at SAFECO then league average.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/SEA/attend.shtml That couldn't relate to good pitching, could it?

SoxxoS
05-21-2004, 04:05 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
That couldn't relate to good pitching, could it?

But you have to look at parks at a pretty even keel, or else you can say "But what about X?" (weather, wind, pitchers, hitters, acquisitions, etc.)

Dadawg_77
05-21-2004, 04:06 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
That couldn't relate to good pitching, could it?


LOL, it hard to argue with a brick wall. I am beginning to feel like Randar now.

Fact is Garcia is helped out by pitching in SAFECO field. One could easily go and look at his home and away splits to see this, but you only looked up K and walks. Garcia reminds me too much of Todd Ritchie like acquisition and if Kenny does get him, it will backfire for the Sox.

SEALgep
05-21-2004, 04:11 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
LOL, it hard to argue with a brick wall. I am beginning to feel like Randar now.

Fact is Garcia is helped out by pitching in SAFECO field. One could easily go and look at his home and away splits to see this, but you only looked up K and walks. Garcia reminds me too much of Todd Ritchie like acquisition and if Kenny does get him, it will backfire for the Sox. I looked up his K/walks due to your response, not something I was trying to prove. How easily we forget. Garcia does pitch better at home, but so do most pitchers. It doesn't change the fact that he is a good pitcher, and when taking everything into consideration, he is a better option than Johnson.

mantis1212
05-21-2004, 04:23 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
Teams score 5% less runs at SAFECO then league average.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/SEA/attend.shtml

IMO that's kind of a weak argument. That would change his career ERA from 3.91 to 4.10, not a deal breaker to me. Besides, this "5%" measurement is useless unless you know the standard deviation of all the parks. (Which I don't know either)

lowesox
05-21-2004, 06:15 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
Garcia reminds me too much of Todd Ritchie like acquisition and if Kenny does get him, it will backfire for the Sox.

Wow that's a pretty harsh statement. Garcia's a guy who, in the past, has been Seattle's ace. And if I remember correct he also pitched well in the playoffs.

We acquired Ritchie based on potential - which, it turned out, he didn't have any. Besides, this trade would be a very different one since Garcia makes quite a bit and Ritchie didn't. I think the sox would probably include Lee in a trade for Garcia in order to balance the money out. And probably include less in terms of 'prospects'.

So far, we've had 4 consistent starters - I think getting Garcia would give us five. If we could bring him in for a reasonable price (MAYBE: Lee for Garcia and Wynn?? - just off the top of my head) then I say do it.

beckett21
05-21-2004, 09:15 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
LOL, it hard to argue with a brick wall. I am beginning to feel like Randar now.

Fact is Garcia is helped out by pitching in SAFECO field. One could easily go and look at his home and away splits to see this, but you only looked up K and walks. Garcia reminds me too much of Todd Ritchie like acquisition and if Kenny does get him, it will backfire for the Sox.


So it is the anti-KW agenda alive, well, and at work.

Why don't we just expect Kenny to go out and get Pedro or Schilling? I mean after all, they are better than Garcia too. I could list 20 pitchers better than Freddy Garcia. It doesn't mean we have a snowball's chance of getting them.

Garcia is helped by Safeco. No doubt about it. At least he is familiar with the league and the parks. A Randy Johnson acquisition at this time would be the most short-sighted move the Sox could make, with the potential to cripple the franchise for the next 10 years. The guy has no cartilage in one knee for crying out loud. If that is not a red flag then I don't know what is.

So that would be a win-win for the anti-KW crowd. However if the Sox get Garcia and he succeeds, everyone forgets. If he flops, it's all Kenny's fault. I get it now.

Soxfest
05-21-2004, 10:24 PM
I would like to see it but the cost would be too high

Lip Man 1
05-21-2004, 11:11 PM
For what it's worth Ken Rosenthal was on The Sporting News radio and basically said forget about any and all rumors regarding Johnson.

He listed three reasons...one even though the D-backs are trimming payroll to 70 million the owners still want to remain compeditive. Two, Johnson said Jerry Colangelo told him he wants Johnson to retire in a D-backs uniform and three Rosenthal said the D-backs are getting Sexson back, the Dodgers are coming back to the pack and Arizona should remain in contention for the division.

Lip

beckett21
05-21-2004, 11:14 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
For what it's worth Ken Rosenthal was on The Sporting News radio and basically said forget about any and all rumors regarding Johnson.

He listed three reasons...one even though the D-backs are trimming payroll to 70 million the owners still want to remain compeditive. Two, Johnson said Jerry Colangelo told him he wants Johnson to retire in a D-backs uniform and three Rosenthal said the D-backs are getting Sexson back, the Dodgers are coming back to the pack and Arizona should remain in contention for the division.

Lip

The whole debate was a fantasy anyhow. He would not be worth what he would have cost us.

Kittle83ROY
05-22-2004, 03:08 AM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
First off Garcia is not a top tier starter. His stats are padded by SAFCO field. His K rate is too low to be a top notch starter. He is a good middle of staff pitcher. Not worth the 6.8 million he is currently being paid.

Secondly, the OF prospects will replace Mags at a higher level then any of the pitching prospect becoming an ace type pitcher next year, even if we give one up in this trade.

K rate has nothing to do with being a top notch starter. Jim Palmer never struck out more than 200 batters in a season and his K per 9 innings wasn't high. I would dare anybody to say he wasn't a top tier starter.

I do agree that Garcia and all Mariners pitchers are helped by Safeco's large demensions and lot's of balls that are hits in other OF are outs because of Cameron and Ichiro, both gold glovers. That's one of the M's problems right now, is OF defense. Ichiro is still great. But Winn isn't anywhere close to Cameron with the glove.

Dadawg_77
05-22-2004, 11:20 AM
Originally posted by lowesox
Wow that's a pretty harsh statement. Garcia's a guy who, in the past, has been Seattle's ace. And if I remember correct he also pitched well in the playoffs.

We acquired Ritchie based on potential - which, it turned out, he didn't have any. Besides, this trade would be a very different one since Garcia makes quite a bit and Ritchie didn't. I think the sox would probably include Lee in a trade for Garcia in order to balance the money out. And probably include less in terms of 'prospects'.

So far, we've had 4 consistent starters - I think getting Garcia would give us five. If we could bring him in for a reasonable price (MAYBE: Lee for Garcia and Wynn?? - just off the top of my head) then I say do it.

I used the Ritchie analogy because Garcia will be a highly praised acquisition, but I feel he will flop here. I am not saying he isn't a good guy to have on your staff, but he isn't a guy who will put you over the top. He put up an ERA around 4.5 in Chicago, that isn't top tier starter some claim he is.

Dadawg_77
05-22-2004, 11:22 AM
Originally posted by beckett21
So it is the anti-KW agenda alive, well, and at work.

Why don't we just expect Kenny to go out and get Pedro or Schilling? I mean after all, they are better than Garcia too. I could list 20 pitchers better than Freddy Garcia. It doesn't mean we have a snowball's chance of getting them.

Garcia is helped by Safeco. No doubt about it. At least he is familiar with the league and the parks. A Randy Johnson acquisition at this time would be the most short-sighted move the Sox could make, with the potential to cripple the franchise for the next 10 years. The guy has no cartilage in one knee for crying out loud. If that is not a red flag then I don't know what is.

So that would be a win-win for the anti-KW crowd. However if the Sox get Garcia and he succeeds, everyone forgets. If he flops, it's all Kenny's fault. I get it now.

I can't see if done right how a trade for Johnson would cripple the Sox for a decade. What I am saying is Garcia isn't the may to put the Sox over the top, yes he could help but he won't make a major difference on the South Side. And know it wouldn't be a win for the anti Kenny crowd if Garcia flops, since it would mean bad things for the Sox.

SEALgep
05-22-2004, 11:26 AM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
I used the Ritchie analogy because Garcia will be a highly praised acquisition, but I feel he will flop here. I am not saying he isn't a good guy to have on your staff, but he isn't a guy who will put you over the top. He put up an ERA around 4.5 in Chicago, that isn't top tier starter some claim he is. That's because he was facing the Sox everytime he was in Chicago. Not because of the stadium. As of now, Cotts is our pen guy, and a good one at that, who is just spot starting. With that said, and knowing we don't have a fifth starter, I would have to say Garcia would put us in a considerably better position. We have four solid starters, and he would be number 5. A little better than just having a .500 pitcher in that role IMO.

SEALgep
05-22-2004, 11:30 AM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
I can't see if done right how a trade for Johnson would cripple the Sox for a decade. What I am saying is Garcia isn't the may to put the Sox over the top, yes he could help but he won't make a major difference on the South Side. And know it wouldn't be a win for the anti Kenny crowd if Garcia flops, since it would mean bad things for the Sox. The guy is pitching great right now, regardless of what stadium he's in. The reason Johnson would cripple the Sox because it would take guys like Cotts to get it done, and it's just not worth that, especially with the other minor league talent it would cost. Not to mention the guy is an injury risk, and is making $16 million dollars next year. All it would take is one knee problem. Even if he was as dominant as he is now, the money and prospects it would cost is just not worth it to this ball club.

southsidegirl
05-22-2004, 11:57 AM
Cotts must stay! Magglio must too!!!!

beckett21
05-22-2004, 02:51 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
The guy is pitching great right now, regardless of what stadium he's in. The reason Johnson would cripple the Sox because it would take guys like Cotts to get it done, and it's just not worth that, especially with the other minor league talent it would cost. Not to mention the guy is an injury risk, and is making $16 million dollars next year. All it would take is one knee problem. Even if he was as dominant as he is now, the money and prospects it would cost is just not worth it to this ball club.

Thanks SEAL, that was pretty much my point. We would shell out big $$$ and some serious prospects to pick up Johnson for a brief run.

There is no guarantee that Johnson would stay healthy, much less who knows what shape he will be in by August. Health is never guaranteed with anyone, however with these types of pre-existing and degenerative conditions they just do not go away. Johnson may be the most dominant pitcher in the game today when healthy. But his health is a concern, and two years from now unless UNLESS we WIN the WORLD SERIES the move will categorically be a failure no matter what we give up.

So if we do get Johnson, we had better win the whole thing. Because what it will cost to get him (Cotts, Honel, Diaz? Anderson, Reed, Sweeney??) not to mention the $$$, unless we win a championship it will be a total waste of time and effort.

I have no problem trading prospects for value, since that is why they call them *prospects* and there are no sure things. But it is pretty close to a sure thing that Johnson will be out of baseball in two years or so, and if not we sure will not be able to afford him. Someone like Garcia can give us good quality now, and there is a chance he can continue to help us for years down the road.

Johnson would be a colossal mistake in my book.

SEALgep
05-22-2004, 02:55 PM
Originally posted by beckett21
Thanks SEAL, that was pretty much my point. We would shell out big $$$ and some serious prospects to pick up Johnson for a brief run.

There is no guarantee that Johnson would stay healthy, much less who knows what shape he will be in by August. Health is never guaranteed with anyone, however with these types of pre-existing and degenerative conditions they just do not go away. Johnson may be the most dominant pitcher in the game today when healthy. But his health is a concern, and two years from now unless UNLESS we WIN the WORLD SERIES the move will categorically be a failure no matter what we give up.

So if we do get Johnson, we had better win the whole thing. Because what it will cost to get him (Cotts, Honel, Diaz? Anderson, Reed, Sweeney??) not to mention the $$$, unless we win a championship it will be a total waste of time and effort.

I have no problem trading prospects for value, since that is why they call them *prospects* and there are no sure things. But it is pretty close to a sure thing that Johnson will be out of baseball in two years or so, and if not we sure will not be able to afford him. Someone like Garcia can give us good quality now, and there is a chance he can continue to help us for years down the road.

Johnson would be a colossal mistake in my book. Not to mention that with the outfield prospeccts we lose, who is going to replace Maggs? He would most certainly not be back if we're dishing the money to Johnson.

lowesox
05-22-2004, 03:01 PM
Put me in the 'no' camp too. I agree with SEALgep all the way on this one. Does anybody have a lst of other pitchers who are in their contract year this season?

beckett21
05-22-2004, 03:01 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
Not to mention that with the outfield prospeccts we lose, who is going to replace Maggs? He would most certainly not be back if we're dishing the money to Johnson.

That all figures into the equation and why I believe that a deal for Johnson would set this franchise back 10 years.

Thankfully, I don't see any way we pursue Johnson so I am not worried.

Lip Man 1
05-22-2004, 11:01 PM
With respect it's a moot point. Unit isn't going anywhere...the owner wants him to retire in a D-backs uniform (and probably go to the Hall Of Fame in a D-backs cap...)

Lip