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Lip Man 1
05-21-2004, 12:41 PM
Ken Rosenthal is just on The Sporting News radio network talking about baseball.

On the White Sox / Twins series he said the Sox have got to start making a statement to Minnesota... that they have owned the Sox since last September and even before that. Sooner or later he said, you have to look your accuser in the eye and say enough. He said last night was a good start. In Minnesota's defense he also said it's hard to win with basically half of your starting line up out.

On the Yankees he said they are not interested in Carlos Beltran right now, they have no desire to re-sign Aaron Boone because Boone wants to play 3rd base but he said they do want more pitching and have targeted Freddy Garcia. Can't speak for anybody else but this is the first time I've heard of interest in him from New York.

Lip

pjthesox13
05-21-2004, 12:45 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Ken Rosenthal is just on The Sporting News radio network talking about baseball.

On the White Sox / Twins series he said the Sox have got to start making a statement to Minnesota... that they have owned the Sox since last September and even before that. Sooner or later he said, you have to look your accuser in the eye and say enough. He said last night was a good start. In Minnesota's defense he also said it's hard to win with basically half of your starting line up out.

On the Yankees he said they are not interested in Carlos Beltran right now, they have no desire to re-sign Aaron Boone because Boone wants to play 3rd base but he said they do want more pitching and have targeted Freddy Garcia. Can't speak for anybody else but this is the first time I've heard of interest in him from New York.

Lip

I heard NY was interested in him I think earlier this week either on ESPN or CBSSPORTSLINE but can't remember which. And it only goes to figure that NY is interested in some one that Boston is interested in as well.

rahulsekhar
05-21-2004, 12:48 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Ken Rosenthal is just on The Sporting News radio network talking about baseball.

On the White Sox / Twins series he said the Sox have got to start making a statement to Minnesota... that they have owned the Sox since last September and even before that. Sooner or later he said, you have to look your accuser in the eye and say enough. He said last night was a good start. In Minnesota's defense he also said it's hard to win with basically half of your starting line up out.

On the Yankees he said they are not interested in Carlos Beltran right now, they have no desire to re-sign Aaron Boone because Boone wants to play 3rd base but he said they do want more pitching and have targeted Freddy Garcia. Can't speak for anybody else but this is the first time I've heard of interest in him from New York.

Lip

Not surprising they're interested in Garcia, but their problem is and will be that they don't have any prospects to offer up. As for Beltran - was the comment that they're not interested in him based on this year or that they don't currently have any thoughts of signing him in the offseason. The former isn't that surprising (they dont' really need the O, they need pitching right now), but the latter would be.

In any case, I don't see the Yanks as serious competition for Beltran in a midseason trade since as noted, they don't have prospects to offer. But if they're really not that interestedin pursuing him in the offseason, that makes him easier to resign for anyone else and therefor increases his value in a midseason deal.

fledgedrallycap
05-21-2004, 12:53 PM
Even if the Yanks and Boston are interested in Garcia, the Sox are still just as likely to land him because of our prospect pool - especially in the Outfield.

SoxxoS
05-21-2004, 12:54 PM
If another person brings up the Twins injuries I am going to scream. The guys taking the places of the guys that are hurt are off their face. Lew Ford? Didn't LeCroy just hit a pinch hit grand slam? They aren't replacing DiMaggio and Williams here.

RKMeibalane
05-21-2004, 01:16 PM
Originally posted by SoxxoS
If another person brings up the Twins injuries I am going to scream. The guys taking the places of the guys that are hurt are off their face. Lew Ford? Didn't LeCroy just hit a pinch hit grand slam? They aren't replacing DiMaggio and Williams here.

Agreed. The difference between the Twins' starters and bench players isn't that great. The guys who play everyday aren't that much better than those who don't. Therefore, the Twins really don't have a lot to complain about. I'm really getting sick of the way the media makes excuses for Minnesota. It's almost as bad as the way they make excuses for the Cubs.

jabrch
05-21-2004, 01:16 PM
All the Yanks have to trade is that C, Navarro or they can offer to take on bad contracts to bail teams out. We are in a far better position than they are to get someone. I hope things work out - I'd love to see Garcia here.

Randar68
05-21-2004, 01:26 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
All the Yanks have to trade is that C, Navarro or they can offer to take on bad contracts to bail teams out. We are in a far better position than they are to get someone. I hope things work out - I'd love to see Garcia here.

*** Except for the financial aspect. Eating a contract saves having to give up top prospects. The Sox would almost certainly have to have the originating team take on most of the salary and end up giving up better and more prospects to do so.

fhqwhgads
05-21-2004, 02:29 PM
Originally posted by SoxxoS
If another person brings up the Twins injuries I am going to scream.

Get ready to scream. :D:

The Twins have three opening day starters left. THREE. You tell me how well the Sox (or any other team) would do with three starters left out of nine. It is just plain silly to deny that the Twins are a shadow of what they would be when healthy. Give me a freakin' break.

The guys taking the places of the guys that are hurt are off their face. Lew Ford? Didn't LeCroy just hit a pinch hit grand slam? They aren't replacing DiMaggio and Williams here.

Lew Ford: 26th man coming out of ST.
LeCroy: Supposed to be our starting DH - turned starting catcher due to Mauer's injury (and just came off the DL himself).
DiMaggio and Williams: Didn't know they were available. Seriously, which Sox would be analogous to those names? Hmmm?

The Twins are currently little more than a AAA team due to injury. Take advantage while you can, because this won't last.

fledgedrallycap
05-21-2004, 02:36 PM
Originally posted by fhqwhgads
Get ready to scream. :D:

The Twins have three opening day starters left. THREE. You tell me how well the Sox (or any other team) would do with three starters left out of nine. It is just plain silly to deny that the Twins are a shadow of what they would be when healthy. Give me a freakin' break.



Lew Ford: 26th man coming out of ST.
LeCroy: Supposed to be our starting DH - turned starting catcher due to Mauer's injury (and just came off the DL himself).
DiMaggio and Williams: Didn't know they were available. Seriously, which Sox would be analogous to those names? Hmmm?

The Twins are currently little more than a AAA team due to injury. Take advantage while you can, because this won't last.

Credit is deserved where credit is due. However, the Twins have been playing at a very nice pace; one that was expected. They don't have the talent level of an Angels, Red Sox or Yankees team; thus their win total is probably on track.

They have benefited from super-sub's - that's a credit to the farm system and your GM, but to think the team will get healthy and elevate to mythical ability is naive. Some of the subs are playing better than the guys they replaced.

Paulwny
05-21-2004, 02:40 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
*** Except for the financial aspect. Eating a contract saves having to give up top prospects. The Sox would almost certainly have to have the originating team take on most of the salary and end up giving up better and more prospects to do so.

Agree, the yankmees can always take on more salary while the sox will want the trading team to eat some salary.

fhqwhgads
05-21-2004, 03:00 PM
Originally posted by fledgedrallycap
Credit is deserved where credit is due. However, the Twins have been playing at a very nice pace; one that was expected. They don't have the talent level of an Angels, Red Sox or Yankees team; thus their win total is probably on track.

I agree, and that was pretty much my point for the year to date (or at least, to this past week).

They have benefited from super-sub's - that's a credit to the farm system and your GM, but to think the team will get healthy and elevate to mythical ability is naive. Some of the subs are playing better than the guys they replaced.

I would not expect them to play better than they were as of a week ago (coming out of a 5-game winning streak). Since Mientkiewicz, Rivas, Koskie and Stewart went down in the past week (!), they have been replaced by Awfulman, Prieto (who is the backup to the injured backup Punto), Cuddyer (who has NO business playing 3B), and Ford (who would be a starter on pretty much any MLB team). That is a serious downgrade in offensive AND defensive talent.

Wins earned by the Twins at this point are due to organizational depth, good management, and sheer determination. It would be expected for the team to go into a injury-induced tailspin at this time. There should be no pressure on the Twins, and all pressure on their opponents to not lose to a team of backups/has beens/never-will-bes. Enjoy what should be easy pickin's.

Prieto, for cryin' out loud. Two ML hits, and can barely field his position. Bartlett should have been the back up, but he was injured in the minors!

SoxxoS
05-21-2004, 03:01 PM
Originally posted by fledgedrallycap
They have benefited from super-sub's - that's a credit to the farm system and your GM, but to think the team will get healthy and elevate to mythical ability is naive. Some of the subs are playing better than the guys they replaced.

That is exactly what I was trying to say. Just becasue they are starters doesn't mean you can't replace them with a more effective person for a period of time. For example, If Maggs would go on the DL, and KW would call Borchard up and he hit .400 for a week with 4 dongs and 10 RBI's...he would be more effective than Maggs, even though he isn't a starter.

fhjlhsl;ahsfdl;ahlsdfhalsdhqads- Just b/c Lew Ford was the 26th man doesn't mean anything. Who cares what man he was?

I didn't say Williams or Dimaggio were available, nor did I say they were on the Sox.

Little more than a AAA team? You are selling your team way short. You haven't had any pitching injuries, and nobody has been out for a long time other than Koskie...not to mention these players like Ford and LeCroy coming up big.

fhqwhgads
05-21-2004, 03:23 PM
Originally posted by SoxxoS
You haven't had any pitching injuries
:o:
Helling? Balfour? (not to mention Mays). Granted these aren't nearly as severe as the position-player injuries, but they've made the Twins rely on dependable household names like Greisinger and Mulholland.

and nobody has been out for a long time other than Koskie
First off, Mauer's been out since 4/6. Because of his injury, Awfulman has been the DH far too often (as the starting DH was catching when he wasn't on the DL).

Secondly, it doesn't matter, because in this series, the Twins have three (maybe four by Sunday) regulars. The Sox are playing a half-strength (at best) team.

Thirdly, aside from Jones and Guzman, EVERY STARTER (and one backup) has missed multiple games due to injury this season. It's only mid-May!

What I'm saying is that no-one has seen the Twins at full strength this season, and that the Sox have the fortune to face them at their very weakest (AAAA at best) time right now.

jeremyb1
05-21-2004, 03:47 PM
Originally posted by fhqwhgads
:o:
Helling? Balfour? (not to mention Mays). Granted these aren't nearly as severe as the position-player injuries, but they've made the Twins rely on dependable household names like Greisinger and Mulholland.

First off, Mauer's been out since 4/6. Because of his injury, Awfulman has been the DH far too often (as the starting DH was catching when he wasn't on the DL).

Secondly, it doesn't matter, because in this series, the Twins have three (maybe four by Sunday) regulars. The Sox are playing a half-strength (at best) team.

Thirdly, aside from Jones and Guzman, EVERY STARTER (and one backup) has missed multiple games due to injury this season. It's only mid-May!

What I'm saying is that no-one has seen the Twins at full strength this season, and that the Sox have the fortune to face them at their very weakest (AAAA at best) time right now.

First of all Lecroy, Guzman, Hunter, Jones is four regulars right? Second of all Rivas and Stewart have not been out long and Rivas isn't going to be missed too much. Also, as discussed Ford has clearly been a upgrade. If Ryan were smarter Morneau would be up and he'd be as good as his replacement at the worst.

bobj4400
05-21-2004, 03:54 PM
Originally posted by fhqwhgads
:o:
Helling? Balfour? (not to mention Mays). Granted these aren't nearly as severe as the position-player injuries, but they've made the Twins rely on dependable household names like Greisinger and Mulholland.


First off, Mauer's been out since 4/6. Because of his injury, Awfulman has been the DH far too often (as the starting DH was catching when he wasn't on the DL).

Secondly, it doesn't matter, because in this series, the Twins have three (maybe four by Sunday) regulars. The Sox are playing a half-strength (at best) team.

Thirdly, aside from Jones and Guzman, EVERY STARTER (and one backup) has missed multiple games due to injury this season. It's only mid-May!

What I'm saying is that no-one has seen the Twins at full strength this season, and that the Sox have the fortune to face them at their very weakest (AAAA at best) time right now.

And we are missing our best player (Ordonez) and probably the hottest hitter we had going into this series (Harris), so dont cry about injuries to us right now. Granted, your injuries may be more severe and cost you more in the long run, but for this series the injuries are having just as big of an impact on our team as they are on yours...

fhqwhgads
05-21-2004, 03:57 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
First of all Lecroy, Guzman, Hunter, Jones is four regulars right?
I'll give you three-and-a-half. LeCroy isn't 1/2 of the defensive catcher Blanco is, let alone Mauer. LeCroy is supposed to be the DH.

Second of all Rivas and Stewart have not been out long
Irrelevant for the purposes of this series (which was the point of my first post).
and Rivas isn't going to be missed too much.
Not true. Prieto bats .111 (the one hit last night was a seeing-eye single), and his defense is also a downgrade.
Also, as discussed Ford has clearly been a upgrade.
Agreed - he's finally replacing the correct outfielder.
If Ryan were smarter Morneau would be up and he'd be as good as his replacement at the worst.
I hope that you are proven right tonight. :D:

SoxxoS
05-21-2004, 03:57 PM
Originally posted by fhqwhgads
:o:
Helling? Balfour? (not to mention Mays). Granted these aren't nearly as severe as the position-player injuries, but they've made the Twins rely on dependable household names like Greisinger and Mulholland.


First off, Mauer's been out since 4/6. Because of his injury, Awfulman has been the DH far too often (as the starting DH was catching when he wasn't on the DL).

Secondly, it doesn't matter, because in this series, the Twins have three (maybe four by Sunday) regulars. The Sox are playing a half-strength (at best) team.

Thirdly, aside from Jones and Guzman, EVERY STARTER (and one backup) has missed multiple games due to injury this season. It's only mid-May!

What I'm saying is that no-one has seen the Twins at full strength this season, and that the Sox have the fortune to face them at their very weakest (AAAA at best) time right now.

1st off, I should mention I don't follow the Twins like the Sox. I have enough problems.

2nd, if you think Rick Helling is a big difference from Griesinger I got a bridge to sell you. Rick Helling is awful. We aren't talking like you lost Santana and replaced him with Griesinger. It's Rick Helling.
Last I checked, Mulholland was pitching pretty well for you guys. ERA under 2.50, I believe?
Balfour? I thought I saw him pitch in this series...I have actually never heard of him before this year...he can't be THAT big of a loss, and he is pitching anyway.

The Twins just reeled off 5 in a row...if they are a "AAAA" team, just buy your World Series tickets right now.

Lip Man 1
05-21-2004, 10:33 PM
I got an e-mail back from Ken today and he heard about Ken Williams 'ultra aggresive' comments in the Chicago papers. He thinks the Sox may have a chance for Garcia but he said any talk about Randy Johnson is foolish. As he put it 'those pigs won't fly...'

Lip

batmanZoSo
05-21-2004, 11:43 PM
Originally posted by fhqwhgads
Get ready to scream. :D:

The Twins have three opening day starters left. THREE. You tell me how well the Sox (or any other team) would do with three starters left out of nine. It is just plain silly to deny that the Twins are a shadow of what they would be when healthy. Give me a freakin' break.



Lew Ford: 26th man coming out of ST.
LeCroy: Supposed to be our starting DH - turned starting catcher due to Mauer's injury (and just came off the DL himself).
DiMaggio and Williams: Didn't know they were available. Seriously, which Sox would be analogous to those names? Hmmm?

The Twins are currently little more than a AAA team due to injury. Take advantage while you can, because this won't last.

Injuries schminjuries. The last three games the Sox have just beat the crap out of the Twins. It would've happened regardless, just maybe not as big a gap (29-4).

pearso66
05-21-2004, 11:45 PM
I have to agree, I don't think those injuries could have stopped the offensive output the Sox have had

LASOXFAN
05-22-2004, 12:46 AM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane
Agreed. The difference between the Twins' starters and bench players isn't that great.

***?

I assume you both are joking. So what if a couple of stiffs off the bench got big hits? They are not the players who've led them to the playoffs the last couple of years. I like seeing the sox beat the twins as much as anyone, but to call this team as good as the team that broke camp is the crack of a two-game ass whipping talking, imho.

StillMissOzzie
05-22-2004, 01:29 AM
Originally posted by LASOXFAN
***?

I assume you both are joking. So what if a couple of stiffs off the bench got big hits? They are not the players who've led them to the playoffs the last couple of years. I like seeing the sox beat the twins as much as anyone, but to call this team as good as the team that broke camp is the crack of a two-game ass whipping talking, imho.

OT, but it's about your sig. I think the exchange went more like this:

Harry: Jimmy, you're crazy
Jimmy: No, I'm NOT, and I've got the papers to prove it.

Get it? Jimmy got out of the looney bin by proving he was sane.

SMO

johnny_mostil
05-22-2004, 10:41 AM
Originally posted by fhqwhgads
Get ready to scream. :D:

The Twins are currently little more than a AAA team due to injury. Take advantage while you can, because this won't last.

The Twins depth is amazing. Their "AAA" team is almost as good as their major league team. Don't kid yourself, the key here is they are STUPID enough to play Jack Offerman. Lew Ford replacing Stewart is an upgrade. Restovich is in AAA but he's probably every bit as good a player as Jones. The problem is they have enormous depth of corner outfielders, but no decent second baseman, and their starting pitching is not going to do them well at all, especially with Santana just not pitching like he used to. Morneau is better than Minky, but he'll go right back to AAA once Minky is healthy so LeCroy and Offerman can DH.

johnny_mostil
05-22-2004, 10:43 AM
Originally posted by LASOXFAN
***?

I assume you both are joking. So what if a couple of stiffs off the bench got big hits? They are not the players who've led them to the playoffs the last couple of years. I like seeing the sox beat the twins as much as anyone, but to call this team as good as the team that broke camp is the crack of a two-game ass whipping talking, imho.

News for you, the Twins got to the playoffs BY DEFAULT the last two years. Playing in a division with two horrible teams, a scrappy but ultimately talent-short team, and the White Sox being managed by a dolt, they would have had to dump games to lose.

They may get there again, but it will be by default. Twins lack any really great players, they just don't have any awful ones, either.

MRKARNO
05-22-2004, 11:01 AM
Originally posted by johnny_mostil
News for you, the Twins got to the playoffs BY DEFAULT the last two years. Playing in a division with two horrible teams, a scrappy but ultimately talent-short team, and the White Sox being managed by a dolt, they would have had to dump games to lose.

They may get there again, but it will be by default. Twins lack any really great players, they just don't have any awful ones, either.

I agree. The Twins have never won the the AL Central division by being a good team. They are a mediocre team that took advantage of the lack of another good team in this division or a team that could actually win it. 2002 was an absolute joke when they won with 94 games and the second place team was the sox at .500 on the dot. That's just being the only decent team amongst a group of bad teams. Also, in 2003, the White Sox just absolutely, positively folded down the stretch. They raised their hands with a white flag in the right one saying that we give up, despite the fact that we were winning. Having to play in the dome where they were 7-18 before that series and after the Paniagua affair was just too much for them. Now that we have a team that is actually going to go out there and win the division by their own merit.

Now I'm going to make a somewhat radical statement: Our pitching is going to help us more this year than last. I know Loaiza was brilliant last year, but I'm a firm believer that if you have a pitching staff that will get you a lot of quality starts and a bullpen that is awesome, that you will win a ton of games. Garland is a lot better than last year, Buehrle is a lot better, Schoeneweis has been about even with Colon (due to his fewer innings than Colon but better ERA) and Loaiza is worse. We still don't have a fifth starter, but KW recognizes that as our primary need and we can expect to get one via trade (or get a better one and push Loaiza or Schoeneweis to the 5th spot). Our offense seems to be able to score enough runs to win when a pitcher throws a quality start so we're in good shape this year IMO.

epgalsoxfan
05-22-2004, 01:52 PM
Originally posted by fhqwhgads
Enjoy what should be easy pickin's.

:whiner:

Give me a break.