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batmanZoSo
05-20-2004, 10:13 PM
He's gotten an unfair amount of flak this year, people saying he sucks or that he was a fluke. Obviously he's not quite the same as he was last year, but look...he's 5-3 with a 4.20, and we all know he should've won on Saturday and be 6-2. He's almost surely not going to win 20 this year, but he's adjusted very well with some help from Don Cooper and is in line to win 15-18 with a respectable 4 era.

There was a time late last year in late August and early September where he looked like he was coming back to earth hard, but he came right back and won his last two or three starts handily. Pitchers just go through bad stretches and early May was Loaiza's. It's not my intent to call anyone out or anything, but he's done everything to show us that he's still a very good pitcher. And who could've expected more? I hope no one was expecting another 10-1 start or whatever he had. Tonight he wasn't really on his game but he only gave up three runs despite it.

MRKARNO
05-20-2004, 10:16 PM
I was probably expecting somewhere between 3.5 and 4 on the year so this really isn't a surprise. The way Buehrle and Garland have stepped it up and Schoeneweis has turned into a very solid ML starter, we really dont need Loaiza to do much more than he has been. Keep churning out those Quality starts Esteban and you'll get a lot of Ws once again.

batmanZoSo
05-20-2004, 10:19 PM
Originally posted by MRKARNO
I was probably expecting somewhere between 3.5 and 4 on the year so this really isn't a surprise. The way Buehrle and Garland have stepped it up and Schoeneweis has turned into a very solid ML starter, we really dont need Loaiza to do much more than he has been. Keep churning out those Quality starts Esteban and you'll get a lot of Ws once again.

The only thing we're missing is an ace. Maybe Buehrle will just catch fire and be like Washburn in 02, but if not we need to acquire an ace and we'll have a world series rotation.

MRKARNO
05-20-2004, 10:21 PM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo
The only thing we're missing is an ace. Maybe Buehrle will just catch fire and be like Washburn in 02, but if not we need to acquire an ace and we'll have a world series rotation.

Well if Buehrle and Garland keep it up, we have two already as far as I'm concerned. Garland seems to be ready to step it up. He did last year when he got that long string of like 20 starts without giving up more than 4 earned but they were bookended by bad starts and finishes to the year. He has such good movement on his pitches and if he can finish games, he will be an ace. I know in the past he hasn't done too great, but he's what, 24 and he's thrown about 200 innings twice in the past now? Garland still has plenty of time to develop into one of the top pitchers in the majors.

pjthesox13
05-20-2004, 10:25 PM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo
He's gotten an unfair amount of flak this year, people saying he sucks or that he was a fluke. Obviously he's not quite the same as he was last year, but look...he's 5-3 with a 4.20, and we all know he should've won on Saturday and be 6-2. He's almost surely not going to win 20 this year, but he's adjusted very well with some help from Don Cooper and is in line to win 15-18 with a respectable 4 era.

There was a time late last year in late August and early September where he looked like he was coming back to earth hard, but he came right back and won his last two or three starts handily. Pitchers just go through bad stretches and early May was Loaiza's. It's not my intent to call anyone out or anything, but he's done everything to show us that he's still a very good pitcher. And who could've expected more? I hope no one was expecting another 10-1 start or whatever he had. Tonight he wasn't really on his game but he only gave up three runs despite it.

Loaiza has pitched very well this year. Minus maybe 1-2 starts he has continued to be solid. He has pitched 7-8 innings usually and has shown he can pitch late into, so in regards to the doubts about him, I don't think he will be much of a fluke at all. 15-18 wins sounds right to me.

batmanZoSo
05-20-2004, 10:25 PM
Originally posted by MRKARNO
Well if Buehrle and Garland keep it up, we have two already as far as I'm concerned. Garland seems to be ready to step it up. He did last year when he got that long string of like 20 starts without giving up more than 4 earned but they were bookended by bad starts and finishes to the year. He has such good movement on his pitches and if he can finish games, he will be an ace. I know in the past he hasn't done too great, but he's what, 24 and he's thrown about 200 innings twice in the past now? Garland still has plenty of time to develop into one of the top pitchers in the majors.

Yeah he's come a long way but there's no way he's an ace right now. That's all I'm saying is we need one. You gotta go for the jugular. Get Freddy.

Win1ForMe
05-20-2004, 10:27 PM
Plus, I also think the defense behind him hasn't been the greatest and ultimately makes his stats look worse than they should be. Case in point, today's first inning should have been over before the two runs scored (at the very least I thought there should have been an error charged to Crede, which would have taken ELo off the hook for those two runs).

Irishsox1
05-20-2004, 11:16 PM
I remember Estaban when he was with Texas and Toronto and he doesn't look like the same pitcher. Whatever happened between Toronto and the Sox is amazing. Even when he's struggling, he is good. This type of turnaround with the Sox is awesome.

elrod
05-20-2004, 11:23 PM
One thing that bothers me about our starters is the low number of strikeouts (26th in MLB - only Tampa Bay and KC have fewer in the AL). With fielders who are about average we need more strikeouts, especially from Loaiza. Schony and Garland aren't K pitchers. Buerhle can get a few (leads the team) but isn't a bigtime K pitcher. But E-Lo needs more or he'll get banged around.

A related problem is failure to pitch inside. The Torii Hunter double was on a low and outside pitch when Olivo had set up way inside. Maybe it was just a first inning thing. But he missed his spot a TON there. I really think E-Lo's value comes from throwing inside. And not just the cutter. His fastball is effective inside as well.

batmanZoSo
05-20-2004, 11:24 PM
Originally posted by Irishsox1
I remember Estaban when he was with Texas and Toronto and he doesn't look like the same pitcher. Whatever happened between Toronto and the Sox is amazing. Even when he's struggling, he is good. This type of turnaround with the Sox is awesome.

When I'd see his name I'd be like "alright, that's a W."

Let this be a lesson to all you Todd Ritchie naysayers :smile:

joeynach
05-21-2004, 12:22 AM
Originally posted by pjthesox13
Loaiza has pitched very well this year. Minus maybe 1-2 starts he has continued to be solid. He has pitched 7-8 innings usually and has shown he can pitch late into, so in regards to the doubts about him, I don't think he will be much of a fluke at all. 15-18 wins sounds right to me.

My problem with him has been his fastball location. Everyone says his speed is down so he will not be as effective. I say bullcrap. SO what instead of 93 or 94 heater its 90 or 91, its still all about location. His 2 seam fastball this year has been subpar. Look at his fastballs tonite, all to high up in the zone, all belt high. He needs to keep the ball down, thats why they got so many liners and stuff off him tonite. Also his fastball has not been running enough its coming middle in to rigties belt high. It needs to be down at the knees. Its just a matter of release so hopefully he will find it and then be unhittable.

SEALgep
05-21-2004, 12:44 AM
He's obviously a good pitcher. Does anyone else notice his two seamer isn't being thrown or at least isn't as sharp? IMO, that's what made his cutter so deadly. That two seamer would nail the corner by biting at the last second, and then he could throw the cutter away. He's still pitching well, but I think he would be even more effective if that two seamer comes back to the way I remember it. Am I wrong about this? Does anyone see his two seamer being exactly the same? Either way though, two quality starts in a row against the Twins is good pitching and I'll take it, no matter how he pitches to do it. Go Este, and Go Sox!

TheBull19
05-21-2004, 06:05 AM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo
When I'd see his name I'd be like "alright, that's a W."

Let this be a lesson to all you Todd Ritchie naysayers :smile:

Yeah, but they aquired Loaiza by signing him to a minor league contract.