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habibharu
05-20-2004, 11:07 AM
according to the score the sox are interested in benson, everett, and garcia. and carlos lee is supposedly on the block

Dadawg_77
05-20-2004, 11:08 AM
Originally posted by habibharu
according to the score the sox are interested in benson, everett, and garcia. and carlos lee is supposedly on the block

All second tier guys, none of them would make me want to jump out and go get tickets. Kenny it is time to be bold and go for the ****ing jugular.

DaveIsHere
05-20-2004, 11:10 AM
you me "Cub Score" since that is all they discuss in the morning

I still do not want to get rid of C Lee, everett wouldnt be bad and either pitcher would help a bunch, does anyone know when KW is going to make a move, before June??

mantis1212
05-20-2004, 11:15 AM
Originally posted by habibharu
according to the score the sox are interested in benson, everett, and garcia. and carlos lee is supposedly on the block

Has anyone looked at Benson's stats? Why do we consider him worth anything??

I heard someone mention Everett hasn't played in a month- how hurt is he?

I would like to have garcia, however...

Dadawg_77
05-20-2004, 11:16 AM
Originally posted by mantis1212
Has anyone looked at Benson's stats? Why do we consider him worth anything??

I heard someone mention Everett hasn't played in a month- how hurt is he?

I would like to have garcia, however...

Garcia will be a bust, take him out of that park and he isn't special.

munchman33
05-20-2004, 11:24 AM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
Garcia will be a bust, take him out of that park and he isn't special.

Actually, he's had 8 starts this year, 4 at home. Of his starts, he has only had one bad start, that being at Anaheim, which is understandable with that lineup.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/splits?statsId=6168

pinwheels3530
05-20-2004, 11:26 AM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
All second tier guys, none of them would make me want to jump out and go get tickets. Kenny it is time to be bold and go for the ****ing jugular.


Who do you consider first tier guys? I would prefer a pitcher like Mulder or Hudson from Oakland to put in the rotation.

Iwritecode
05-20-2004, 11:28 AM
Originally posted by habibharu
according to the score the sox are interested in benson, everett, and garcia. and carlos lee is supposedly on the block

Must be the same thing I heard last night. (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=33637)

thecell
05-20-2004, 11:28 AM
Originally posted by mantis1212
I heard someone mention Everett hasn't played in a month- how hurt is he?

Everett has only played in 10 games this year.

'04 stats (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=5073)

Hangar18
05-20-2004, 11:30 AM
Sox Finally realizing they need another #1 type starter? Lets see, how long did it take them to figure this out? Stupid Sox.
Now........ its going to COST MORE for said pitcher. Also,
I find it QUITE COMICAL that we want to trade for CARL EVERETT .......again. Stupid considering we had the guy and it cost us Francisco Franklin. How many players are we gonna give up for a Decent Outfielder like Everett ??? Stupid Sox.

Iwritecode
05-20-2004, 11:56 AM
Originally posted by Hangar18
Sox Finally realizing they need another #1 type starter? Lets see, how long did it take them to figure this out? Stupid Sox.
Now........ its going to COST MORE for said pitcher. Also,
I find it QUITE COMICAL that we want to trade for CARL EVERETT .......again. Stupid considering we had the guy and it cost us Francisco Franklin. How many players are we gonna give up for a Decent Outfielder like Everett ??? Stupid Sox.

Under MLB rules, the Sox could not have gotten Everett for 2 years at 3 million a year like the Expos did. IIRC they couldn't pay him any LESS than 7 million. Something like that...

I remember Cleveland having to give up Kenny Lofton for the same reason.


Also, to be fair, I believe KW has known since last year that this team needs another top of the rotation starter.

Finding a guy that JR is willing to pay for is another story alltogether.

Brian26
05-20-2004, 12:09 PM
Originally posted by Iwritecode
Under MLB rules, the Sox could not have gotten Everett for 2 years at 3 million a year like the Expos did. IIRC they couldn't pay him any LESS than 7 million. Something like that...


Exactly.

People here STILL don't understand the arbitration situation and how it went down.

Dadawg_77
05-20-2004, 12:10 PM
Originally posted by munchman33
Actually, he's had 8 starts this year, 4 at home. Of his starts, he has only had one bad start, that being at Anaheim, which is understandable with that lineup.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/splits?statsId=6168

Look at his three year averages not just this year.

Dadawg_77
05-20-2004, 12:15 PM
Originally posted by pinwheels3530
Who do you consider first tier guys? I would prefer a pitcher like Mulder or Hudson from Oakland to put in the rotation.

I wouldn't put it past Beane to trade one of the big three for the right deal, but that would require the farm. Reed would most likely be in any of these deals.

I am not sure who is trading right now, so it is hard to say who.

hold2dibber
05-20-2004, 12:18 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
All second tier guys, none of them would make me want to jump out and go get tickets. Kenny it is time to be bold and go for the ****ing jugular.


Originally posted by pinwheels3530
Who do you consider first tier guys? I would prefer a pitcher like Mulder or Hudson from Oakland to put in the rotation.



What "first tier" guys are out there? Other than Randy Johnson (who has veto rights and who may not even be on the block anyway), is there anybody else who fits that description? I mean, you've got to be realistic. Oakland is NOT going to trade Mulder or Hudson - no frickin' way; they have every belief that they're a WS contender - so they're not going to be trading away either of their top two starters. Deeppink for pipedreams, man.

hold2dibber
05-20-2004, 12:21 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
I wouldn't put it past Beane to trade one of the big three for the right deal, but that would require the farm. Reed would most likely be in any of these deals.

I am not sure who is trading right now, so it is hard to say who.

No way they'd trade either of 'em for prospects. They want to win this year - it would take current major leaguers to do it (e.g., Buehrle AND Lee).

hold2dibber
05-20-2004, 12:23 PM
Originally posted by mantis1212
Has anyone looked at Benson's stats? Why do we consider him worth anything??

He's not that good - but he's better than Wright/Diaz. Let's see how Cotts does before we pull the trigger on that one, though.

Dadawg_77
05-20-2004, 12:23 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
What "first tier" guys are out there? Other than Randy Johnson (who has veto rights and who may not even be on the block anyway), is there anybody else who fits that description? I mean, you've got to be realistic. Oakland is NOT going to trade Mulder or Hudson - no frickin' way; they have every belief that they're a WS contender - so they're not going to be trading away either of their top two starters. Deeppink for pipedreams, man.

Yes it is too early for teams to start trading off good guys, teams with good players are usually still in contention in mid May. I just wouldn't pull a quick trigger on Garcia when there is a strong potential better pitchers will come on the market. If the A's don't improve at least one of the big three will be on the market this season. Lets see what Cotts can do before making a move, the time is either to make a ****ing A' trade or wait it out. Garcia, Benson, and Everett won't be a ****ing A' trade.

Palehose13
05-20-2004, 12:29 PM
I like Garcia and everett, just not in CF. However, I think DaDawg is right, it is too early. Remember when other teams last year assumed that the Marlins were out of it and were getting ready to fleece that team? That may give some teams a reason to still have hope in mid-May.

Frater Perdurabo
05-20-2004, 12:34 PM
Originally posted by Palehose13
I like Garcia and everett, just not in CF. However, I think DaDawg is right, it is too early. Remember when other teams last year assumed that the Marlins were out of it and were getting ready to fleece that team? That may give some teams a reason to still have hope in mid-May.

OTOH, an early trade would give the Sox an opportunity to start winning more games now as well as build chemistry with the new player(s).

Palehose13
05-20-2004, 12:39 PM
Originally posted by Frater Perdurabo
OTOH, an early trade would give the Sox an opportunity to start winning more games now as well as build chemistry with the new player(s).

I agree and am not against a trade(heck, I'd love to pick up a SP or CF NOW!), I just think that teams that are currently "tanking"may not be willing to give up "A" players this early in the season.

Frater Perdurabo
05-20-2004, 12:42 PM
Originally posted by Palehose13
I agree and am not against a trade(heck, I'd love to pick up a SP or CF NOW!), I just think that teams that are currently "tanking"may not be willing to give up "A" players this early in the season.

I understand and agree. OTOH, there might be a team out there (Pittsburgh? Seattle?) that already has come to the conclusion that they are done for 2004 and want to start a rebuilding project sooner rather than later.

Palehose13
05-20-2004, 12:46 PM
Originally posted by Frater Perdurabo
I understand and agree. OTOH, there might be a team out there (Pittsburgh? Seattle?) that already has come to the conclusion that they are done for 2004 and want to start a rebuilding project sooner rather than later.

Works for me. :D:

samram
05-20-2004, 12:53 PM
Originally posted by Frater Perdurabo
I understand and agree. OTOH, there might be a team out there (Pittsburgh? Seattle?) that already has come to the conclusion that they are done for 2004 and want to start a rebuilding project sooner rather than later.

The problem with trading with Seattle is they will want either young major-leaguers or guys who are near ready. Because they are old and Piniero and Franklin have not pitched well, and Soriano has been hurt, they may ask for Garland (and more) in exchange for Garcia. I have no problem giving up Garland to get someone better, but Freddy is a free agent at the end of the year, and he is not as valuable as a replacement for one of our four starters as would be as an addition to the staff. Seattle may ask for a ton for him because they need to have a quick turn around to compete in that division, especially with Texas up and coming. That could mean Reed or Borchard having to go as well. OTOH, I would give up pretty much any prospects if it meant a very good chance to get to the WS this year.

hold2dibber
05-20-2004, 02:30 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
If the A's don't improve at least one of the big three will be on the market this season.

What makes you think that? I'm virtually certain that none of them are going to be FAs this offseason. So why would they necessarily be on the market?

Dadawg_77
05-20-2004, 04:49 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
What makes you think that? I'm virtually certain that none of them are going to be FAs this offseason. So why would they necessarily be on the market?

Cause the A's would need some pop to keep up with that division. They have young pitching coming up through the ranks to replace one of the three. Also the A's will probably be able to keep only 2 of them. So the best way to leverage your surplus isn't to trade away your younger and cheaper guys, esp with the A's budget, you trade away one of the more expensive, known, higher value guys. Plus Beane has no problem trading away talent to get what he needs and making big name trades.

gosox3072
05-20-2004, 05:25 PM
Originally posted by samram
The problem with trading with Seattle is they will want either young major-leaguers or guys who are near ready. Because they are old and Piniero and Franklin have not pitched well, and Soriano has been hurt, they may ask for Garland (and more) in exchange for Garcia. I have no problem giving up Garland to get someone better, but Freddy is a free agent at the end of the year, and he is not as valuable as a replacement for one of our four starters as would be as an addition to the staff. Seattle may ask for a ton for him because they need to have a quick turn around to compete in that division, especially with Texas up and coming. That could mean Reed or Borchard having to go as well. OTOH, I would give up pretty much any prospects if it meant a very good chance to get to the WS this year.

Garland is finnaly coming around i think. There is NO WAY id trade him for freddy garcia straight up. Garland is younger and is signed for more years.

lowesox
05-20-2004, 06:06 PM
I think now is a good time to trade Carlos Lee. I know I read last year that he had a very high value. I wonder what we could get for him without including any of our higher profile prospects.

johnny_mostil
05-20-2004, 06:15 PM
Originally posted by lowesox
I think now is a good time to trade Carlos Lee. I know I read last year that he had a very high value. I wonder what we could get for him without including any of our higher profile prospects.

Less than you would have gotten in December. I think he would have brought a very good pitcher 1 for 1.

nodiggity59
05-20-2004, 06:24 PM
The guy we NEED to get rid of is Konerko. Easier said than done, but as bad as Lee has been if we can pckage Konerko w/ some prospects for one of our holes (SP, RP, CF), then we should jump on it. If not, THEN we look at Lee.

batmanZoSo
05-20-2004, 06:33 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
Garcia will be a bust, take him out of that park and he isn't special.

He's better than any starter we have. That's called an upgrade. Getting a guy like Benson is just a fill-in. Garcia isn't up there with Johnson and Pedro, he's more in line with the Hudsons and Wade Miller's of the world.

nitetrain8601
05-20-2004, 07:19 PM
I'd take Garcia. The guy is a strikeout pitcher who throws some heat. That's what we need. He could push Garland to our #4 where he probably would dominate and Schoenweis to #5, so just in case he does struggle, it won't be that bad. I say if we can get him for Konerko/Lee and Valentine we do it in a heartbeat.

Though I doubt this trade rumour is true.

lowesox
05-20-2004, 08:11 PM
Garcia gives us five above average starters - and I think is value going up. I'd make a deal for him in a heartbeat as long as we could shed some salary going the other way.

A. Cavatica
05-20-2004, 08:11 PM
Hello? There's no reason to think Everett will even be better than ROSS FRIGGIN' GLOAD!

And at least Gload isn't a wack job.

Frank the Tank
05-20-2004, 09:48 PM
I expect KW to make a much bigger move than just Benson or just Garcia. Lets face it, a solid starter might bring us closer to winning the A.L. Central, but its nowhere near enough to go further in the play-offs. I have a hunch that KW will bring a solid starter and a big-time position player. In short, I expect to see a move that makes a statement that the sox are not just going for the division, but for the WS.

batmanZoSo
05-20-2004, 09:55 PM
Originally posted by A. Cavatica
Hello? There's no reason to think Everett will even be better than ROSS FRIGGIN' GLOAD!

And at least Gload isn't a wack job.

Good thing Everett isn't one either.

A. Cavatica
05-20-2004, 10:11 PM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo
Good thing Everett isn't one either.

C'mon, it's well documented. Your post should've been in deep pink, or teal, or whatever color we use for posts that are just plain wrong.

Lip Man 1
05-20-2004, 10:14 PM
It's going to be difficult to deal some of the above players that have been mentioned until they start producing and perhaps most importantly the Sox are willing to pay for some of their salary.

Lip

batmanZoSo
05-20-2004, 10:16 PM
Originally posted by A. Cavatica
C'mon, it's well documented. Your post should've been in deep pink, or teal, or whatever color we use for posts that are just plain wrong.

Show me this "document" and I will.

YOU are wrong.

DSpivack
05-20-2004, 10:20 PM
Originally posted by Frank the Tank
I expect KW to make a much bigger move than just Benson or just Garcia. Lets face it, a solid starter might bring us closer to winning the A.L. Central, but its nowhere near enough to go further in the play-offs. I have a hunch that KW will bring a solid starter and a big-time position player. In short, I expect to see a move that makes a statement that the sox are not just going for the division, but for the WS.

Like whom?

MikeW
05-20-2004, 10:30 PM
Although he just got put on the DL, there has been talk that Al Leiter of the Mets may be available. The Yankees are looking at him too, but their farm system is depleted. The Sox may have something the Mets might like though.

A. Cavatica
05-20-2004, 10:32 PM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo
Show me this "document" and I will.

Enjoy...

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/comment/lopresti/2001-09-18-lopresti.htm

http://www.sportscribe.com/00_15.html

http://articles.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1208/is_33_224/ai_64453114

http://216.239.39.104/search?q=cache:g_e4_UAEDp0J:pub199.ezboard.com/froyalrootersfrm20.showMessage%3FtopicID%3D21.topi c+%22Carl+Everett%22+temper&hl=en&lr=lang_en

http://espn.go.com/page2/s/halloran/020219.html

Win1ForMe
05-20-2004, 10:46 PM
Originally posted by MikeW
Although he just got put on the DL, there has been talk that Al Leiter of the Mets may be available. The Yankees are looking at him too, but their farm system is depleted. The Sox may have something the Mets might like though.

I would be hesitant to add a pitcher that has gone on the DL with shoulder trouble. Even if he comes back to pitch well, there's too much risk involved.

batmanZoSo
05-20-2004, 11:00 PM
Originally posted by A. Cavatica
Enjoy...

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/comment/lopresti/2001-09-18-lopresti.htm

http://www.sportscribe.com/00_15.html

http://articles.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1208/is_33_224/ai_64453114

http://216.239.39.104/search?q=cache:g_e4_UAEDp0J:pub199.ezboard.com/froyalrootersfrm20.showMessage%3FtopicID%3D21.topi c+%22Carl+Everett%22+temper&hl=en&lr=lang_en

http://espn.go.com/page2/s/halloran/020219.html

Okay, one's the USA today version of Jay Mariotti.

Another is a failed attempt at humor, transcribing a mock Everett/Rocker conversation.

And another is a message board that actually praises Everett.

You must've thought I wouldn't check them, I don't know...


Please, his whole stigma stems from that one incident with the umpire. And the 2001 Red Sox were a complete mess. The guy went off on an umpire, Alomar spit in one's face. He hasn't done anything like that in a long time and it wasn't the worst anyone's ever seen in the first place.

More importantly, there wasn't one "incident" while he was with us and none since he left. And when we was with us he was a sparkplug and our best clutch hitter. You should pay attention to what really goes on rather than the remote views of a few national sportswriters who get their information from sports center highlights.

Randar68
05-20-2004, 11:12 PM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo
More importantly, there wasn't one "incident" while he was with us and none since he left. And when we was with us he was a sparkplug and our best clutch hitter. You should pay attention to what really goes on rather than the remote views of a few national sportswriters who get their information from sports center highlights.

The man insists that dinosaurs didn't roam the face of the Earth because it isn't in the Bible.

Yes, he's a whack-job. That doesn't make him a bad person, just ignorant.

batmanZoSo
05-20-2004, 11:28 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
The man insists that dinosaurs didn't roam the face of the Earth because it isn't in the Bible.

Yes, he's a whack-job. That doesn't make him a bad person, just ignorant.

Nevertheless, I fail to see what that has to do with baseball.

doublem23
05-21-2004, 12:17 AM
I'm not going to read every post in a thread about trade speculations, but I do hope someone has said this by now. Can we please stop relying on the Score and Gammons for their "insider" info? These things hardly ever work out.

I'll believe it when I see it.

hold2dibber
05-21-2004, 07:25 AM
Originally posted by A. Cavatica
Hello? There's no reason to think Everett will even be better than ROSS FRIGGIN' GLOAD!

Huh? There's no reason to think Everett will be better than Gload? How about this reason: Everett has been a better major league player than Gload has been in the minors over the last five or six years? Do you seriously believe that Gload, if given enough ABs, could even approach Everett's numbers from last year? He never has before in the minors, so you can't possibly think he will in the majors, right? There are tons of reasons to think Everett will be better than Gload - and they're all pretty self evident, IMHO.

Dadawg_77
05-21-2004, 08:34 AM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo
He's better than any starter we have. That's called an upgrade. Getting a guy like Benson is just a fill-in. Garcia isn't up there with Johnson and Pedro, he's more in line with the Hudsons and Wade Miller's of the world.

He would be our fourth starter. I would take Garland, E Lo and Mark over him. Plus he isn't the level Hudson and Miller are. Miller pitches in that bandbox while Garcia pitches in a cavernous park. I only see bad things is most of Garcia's games are in a hitters park like the Cell.

rahulsekhar
05-21-2004, 09:10 AM
From Rotoworld:

Giants' GM Brian Sabean appears close to throwing in the towel on the 2004 season.
''I'm not much for patience,'' Sabean said Thursday. ''Last year we won 100 games. This year, we've won 17. I might have to eat some of our roster. Let some guys go with (big) contracts. Reshape things. Give some kids a chance.'' Don't expect any big moves before June, but some players to look for in San Francisco include outfielder Todd Linden, shortstop Cody Ransom, and pitchers Merkin Valdez, David Aardsma, and Matt Cain. J.T. Snow, Marquis Grissom, Edgardo Alfonzo, Brett Tomko, A.J. Pierzynski, Neifi Perez, Michael Tucker, Kirk Rueter, Ray Durham and other disappointing players could be dealt or released depending on how much Sabean shakes things up

Tomko/Reuter & Grissom? Shouldn't cost us much.

Dadawg_77
05-21-2004, 09:13 AM
Originally posted by rahulsekhar
From Rotoworld:

Giants' GM Brian Sabean appears close to throwing in the towel on the 2004 season.
''I'm not much for patience,'' Sabean said Thursday. ''Last year we won 100 games. This year, we've won 17. I might have to eat some of our roster. Let some guys go with (big) contracts. Reshape things. Give some kids a chance.'' Don't expect any big moves before June, but some players to look for in San Francisco include outfielder Todd Linden, shortstop Cody Ransom, and pitchers Merkin Valdez, David Aardsma, and Matt Cain. J.T. Snow, Marquis Grissom, Edgardo Alfonzo, Brett Tomko, A.J. Pierzynski, Neifi Perez, Michael Tucker, Kirk Rueter, Ray Durham and other disappointing players could be dealt or released depending on how much Sabean shakes things up

Tomko/Reuter & Grissom? Shouldn't cost us much.


but how do they help? That is the question we need to ask.

rahulsekhar
05-21-2004, 09:19 AM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
but how do they help? That is the question we need to ask.

Good question. I'm not up to speed on how Tomko & Reuter have pitched, but they could be the "veteran #5" that many here are looking for. And Grissom gives a biut more contact & speed to the lineup despite being a righty.

On another note, to those who were talking earlier about a Valentin-Aaron Sele deal, I found this little tidbit "Since joining the rotation on May 1, he is 2-0 with a 1.96 ERA in four starts. If you throw out his first relief appearance of the season (five earned runs in 3.1 innings), Sele's ERA would be 1.80"

And since the Angels have Ramon Ortiz and some needs on O, it could be a good fit, probably more with Val than Konerko.

Frater Perdurabo
05-21-2004, 09:20 AM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
but how do they help? That is the question we need to ask.

How about dealing for Durham? I know the Sox already have a glut in the middle infield, but if Harris' injury turns out to be worse than expected, the Sox might find themselves wanting him back.

I for one would welcome Durham back with open arms.

If the Sox could move Konerko, Willie goes to CF, Uribe to short, Durham to 2B and Valentin to DH. Not bad at all. :smile:

Dadawg_77
05-21-2004, 09:36 AM
Originally posted by rahulsekhar
Good question. I'm not up to speed on how Tomko & Reuter have pitched, but they could be the "veteran #5" that many here are looking for. And Grissom gives a biut more contact & speed to the lineup despite being a righty.

On another note, to those who were talking earlier about a Valentin-Aaron Sele deal, I found this little tidbit "Since joining the rotation on May 1, he is 2-0 with a 1.96 ERA in four starts. If you throw out his first relief appearance of the season (five earned runs in 3.1 innings), Sele's ERA would be 1.80"

And since the Angels have Ramon Ortiz and some needs on O, it could be a good fit, probably more with Val than Konerko.

The difference between a kid number five and veteran number five is money and potential and the veteran is a losing proposition both ways.

rahulsekhar
05-21-2004, 09:52 AM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
The difference between a kid number five and veteran number five is money and potential and the veteran is a losing proposition both ways.

Although there's something to be said for going for the more steady/lower upside of a veteran when you're in the playoff hunt rather than the higher risk/higher upside of a promising rookie.

(OMG: I feel like Lip!)

That said, I looked up Tomko & Rueter's stats this year. They both suck and qualify as low risk, high downside. Tomko maybe (he had decent stats last year), but I'd rather get Sele or someone else.

JoseCanseco6969
05-21-2004, 10:11 AM
Originally posted by Frater Perdurabo
How about dealing for Durham? I know the Sox already have a glut in the middle infield, but if Harris' injury turns out to be worse than expected, the Sox might find themselves wanting him back.

I for one would welcome Durham back with open arms.

If the Sox could move Konerko, Willie goes to CF, Uribe to short, Durham to 2B and Valentin to DH. Not bad at all. :smile:

NO WAY. I for one dont want to see durham at all. Hes already spent time on the DL and he sure as hell isnt worth the salary hes getting paid. I dont know what everyones obsession with Durham was or still is. Hes an average 2B at best who plays below average defense. No way Ray Ray!!

beckett21
05-21-2004, 07:23 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
He would be our fourth starter. I would take Garland, E Lo and Mark over him. Plus he isn't the level Hudson and Miller are. Miller pitches in that bandbox while Garcia pitches in a cavernous park. I only see bad things is most of Garcia's games are in a hitters park like the Cell.

Dawg,

No offense meant here but I strongly disagree. Garcia right now is better than any of our starters IMO. Not to take anything away from Loaiza or Buehrle. Garland? Not yet. Maybe in the future, not now. Garcia has been more hittable in his last two starts, but that does not make him a slouch. Two years ago he was an all-star, and last year he was pitching most of the season with two ruptured eardrums which altered his equilibrium tremendously. To his credit, he did not disclose this until after the season and refused to use it as a crutch to hide behind for his poor performance last season. Personally I throw last season out for him. You may counter that as convenient, so be it. That's just how I see him.

As for the pitchers you compare Garcia to:

Hudson: pitches in cavernous Oakland Coliseum, with acres of foul ground.

Miller: pitches in the weak hitting NL, where every ninth out is virtually automatic as well. Somewhat of a bandbox, but over-exaggerated IMO.

Garcia is on a par with both of those guys. Hudson may be a tad better, but when Freddy is on his game he is dominant. He is reaching the age of maturity and will be peaking soon.

If Hudson and Miller are available, sure--let's get them. Good luck. Garcia is the best we can get right now IMO, readily available and within the bounds of reason. In my humble opinion he would also be our ace, or he would be equal to Mark and Esty.

Garcia would be a tremendous upgrade without a doubt.

Dadawg_77
05-22-2004, 10:25 AM
Originally posted by beckett21
Dawg,

No offense meant here but I strongly disagree. Garcia right now is better than any of our starters IMO. Not to take anything away from Loaiza or Buehrle. Garland? Not yet. Maybe in the future, not now. Garcia has been more hittable in his last two starts, but that does not make him a slouch. Two years ago he was an all-star, and last year he was pitching most of the season with two ruptured eardrums which altered his equilibrium tremendously. To his credit, he did not disclose this until after the season and refused to use it as a crutch to hide behind for his poor performance last season. Personally I throw last season out for him. You may counter that as convenient, so be it. That's just how I see him.

As for the pitchers you compare Garcia to:

Hudson: pitches in cavernous Oakland Coliseum, with acres of foul ground.

Miller: pitches in the weak hitting NL, where every ninth out is virtually automatic as well. Somewhat of a bandbox, but over-exaggerated IMO.

Garcia is on a par with both of those guys. Hudson may be a tad better, but when Freddy is on his game he is dominant. He is reaching the age of maturity and will be peaking soon.

If Hudson and Miller are available, sure--let's get them. Good luck. Garcia is the best we can get right now IMO, readily available and within the bounds of reason. In my humble opinion he would also be our ace, or he would be equal to Mark and Esty.

Garcia would be a tremendous upgrade without a doubt.

You are giving way too much credit to Gracia then he deserves.

I really do believe you could get one of Oakland's Big Three with the right offer this year. I would take anyone of them over Gracia any day.

OEO Magglio
05-22-2004, 10:31 AM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
You are giving way too much credit to Gracia then he deserves.

I really do believe you could get one of Oakland's Big Three with the right offer this year. I would take anyone of them over Gracia any day.
Garcia is a better pitcher then Zito and he's a way better pitcher then Miller. If the sox could get Mulder or Hudson instead of Garcia ok then go for it, but I don't think either of them would be traded and no matter what anyone thinks Randy Johnson will not be traded to the sox, so after that Freddy Garcia is the best option available and he's a pretty good pitcher.

beckett21
05-22-2004, 01:58 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
You are giving way too much credit to Gracia then he deserves.

I really do believe you could get one of Oakland's Big Three with the right offer this year. I would take anyone of them over Gracia any day.

You may be right. I would certainly choose Mulder or Hudson over Garcia, Zito most likely as well however he has not looked so good this season or even the end of last year. Garcia has been the superior pitcher over Zito this year.

And the Oakland Coliseum is as much a pitchers park as SAFECO, IMHO.

It all comes down to availability. Garcia will undoubtedly be available. I understand your theory that the A's will have to put up one of their aces for auction but I will believe it when I see it.

Besides, why would you want KW to deal with Beane anyway, since you seem so convinced he has been fleeced by him so many times already?? Foolish, no? Why keep going back to the well?

I may be guilty of giving Garcia too much credit, but I would also add that you do not give him enough.

Dadawg_77
05-22-2004, 02:07 PM
Originally posted by beckett21
You may be right. I would certainly choose Mulder or Hudson over Garcia, Zito most likely as well however he has not looked so good this season or even the end of last year. Garcia has been the superior pitcher over Zito this year.

And the Oakland Coliseum is as much a pitchers park as SAFECO, IMHO.

It all comes down to availability. Garcia will undoubtedly be available. I understand your theory that the A's will have to put up one of their aces for auction but I will believe it when I see it.

Besides, why would you want KW to deal with Beane anyway, since you seem so convinced he has been fleeced by him so many times already?? Foolish, no? Why keep going back to the well?

I may be guilty of giving Garcia too much credit, but I would also add that you do not give him enough.

Oakland does help pitchers out as much as SAFECO, but Hudson road ERA (past three years) is 3.29, Mulder is 4.01, Zito 3.24, Garica 4.14.

I really don't understand this love affair with Garcia , he is a good to average pitcher, not a Cy Young winner. When there could be Cy Young Winning pitches on teh market, with as few bullets as the Sox have, it would be follish to go and get Garcia this early.

beckett21
05-22-2004, 02:22 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
Oakland does help pitchers out as much as SAFECO, but Hudson road ERA (past three years) is 3.29, Mulder is 4.01, Zito 3.24, Garica 4.14.

I really don't understand this love affair with Garcia , he is a good to average pitcher, not a Cy Young winner. When there could be Cy Young Winning pitches on teh market, with as few bullets as the Sox have, it would be follish to go and get Garcia this early.

:reinsy

"Wait just a second here Dawg. Cy Young pitchers? Who do you think I am, George Steinbrenner? Like my good friend Bill Wirtz always says, Championships cost money so don't be getting any silly ideas."

:D:


Bang for the buck. Garcia would potentially give us the most bang for our buck. He may not be the best out there, but he is certainly above average.

I really don't understand where you think we are going to go and just *pick up* a Cy-Young winning pitcher. Teams generally don't just give them away. And we are not going to sign Pedro Martinez, I would practically bet my house on it.

SOXintheBURGH
05-22-2004, 03:11 PM
Kris Benson was drafted first overall by the Bucs in the late 90's and has had Tommy John once and has had several other injuries. I think that he, like Garcia, needs a change of scenery and will pitch quite well. He also is aweful at bat in the NL and would welcome a league switch.

beckett21
05-22-2004, 03:22 PM
Originally posted by SOXintheBURGH
Kris Benson was drafted first overall by the Bucs in the late 90's and has had Tommy John once and has had several other injuries. I think that he, like Garcia, needs a change of scenery and will pitch quite well. He also is aweful at bat in the NL and would welcome a league switch.

I've always liked Benson, but he is a little (ok a LOT) more worrisome with the arm injury. He had one good season and has never been the same since.

What's the word out there on Benson? He still seems a little inconsistent and has trouble finding the strike zone at times from what I have been able to gather.

He could be a solid pickup, but certainly more risky than Garcia. I'd prefer them taking a chance on Freddy provided we could get him. If not, Benson might not be a bad option but the potential risk seems to outweigh the upside with him IMO.

pearso66
05-22-2004, 06:05 PM
I think it would be a good idea to go get Garcia this early. If we wait too long, there might be a bidding war and we might have to give up way more than we would have to right now. Sure Mulder or Hudson might become available, but I wouldn't waste an opportunity to get a good young player for cheap right now on the chance that one of them could become available

hold2dibber
05-22-2004, 11:58 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
Oakland does help pitchers out as much as SAFECO, but Hudson road ERA (past three years) is 3.29, Mulder is 4.01, Zito 3.24, Garica 4.14.

I really don't understand this love affair with Garcia , he is a good to average pitcher, not a Cy Young winner. When there could be Cy Young Winning pitches on teh market, with as few bullets as the Sox have, it would be follish to go and get Garcia this early.

Seems like your primary problem with going after Garcia is your belief that one of the A's big 3 will be available - can you shed some light on why you think that will be the case? They're in the playoff hunt (i.e., not likely to be in sell-off mode; instead, Beane usually adds mid-year if they're anywhere close to being in the hunt) and none of those big 3 are FAs this offseason. So what makes you so convinced they'll be selling off one of those guys during the season?

Dadawg_77
05-23-2004, 12:12 AM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
Seems like your primary problem with going after Garcia is your belief that one of the A's big 3 will be available - can you shed some light on why you think that will be the case? They're in the playoff hunt (i.e., not likely to be in sell-off mode; instead, Beane usually adds mid-year if they're anywhere close to being in the hunt) and none of those big 3 are FAs this offseason. So what makes you so convinced they'll be selling off one of those guys during the season?

Here is the theory, first I don't think the A's will afford to keep them all. Secondly, the A's need some more pop to compete in the West. Angels are trying to buy the title, and Rangers have built a very good young team. Thirdly, the A's have younger guys who can move up and fill in for the big three, right now they are talking about moving Harden into the pen. Fourthly, the A's will get their highest value in a trade from trading one of their big names. You will also get higher value since it isn't those guys' walk year. Fifth, Beane isn't afraid of a ****ing A trade, this would be one. Sixth, to sign the other two, you will need to show a commitment to winning. Getting more offense to offset the loss of one of the big three could do that.

If you ask me, I wouldn't be shocked if Barry Zito was in someone else's uniform at the end of this year. Given Beane's past history, I see something coming from the A's in the next three weeks. But don't hold me to that, just an observation.

beckett21
05-23-2004, 12:20 AM
Given the way Zito has pitched this season, I wouldn't be surprised if he's flipping burgers by the end of the year.

Only a slight exaggeration there.

:)

Good logic Dawg. I'm still not buying it, but your reasoning is sound. I'll give you that. I am still convinced that Garcia will be the best fit for us. Just my opinion of course.