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View Full Version : Phil Rogers trade speculation: RJ/Finley IN, Maggs OUT


Win1ForMe
05-20-2004, 12:41 AM
Phil Rogers is the new Sam Smith.

Johnson is signed through 2005 at $16 million per season, with $6 million deferred. Finley, who is making $6.75 million, will be a free agent at the end of this season. That's a lot of money for the already over-budget White Sox to pay, but it's not out of the question given the likely departure of Magglio Ordonez, who is making $14 million.

Here's what I can see happening: The Sox trade for Johnson and Finley, whose left-handed bat balances the lineup, and then deal Ordonez for a package of prospects. Talk about a wild July.

With Williams saying he's in an "ultra-aggressive" mode, anything is possible, with the possible exception of the Sox adding a headliner like Johnson and continuing to pay Ordonez $1,076,923 every other week for the rest of the season. That's not how the Sox do business.

LINK (http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/columnists/cs-040519rogersonbaseball,1,1566370.column?coll=cs-home-utility)

EDIT~

I just re-read the article, and look at this:

How about a deal that brings Johnson and Finley from Arizona for Carlos Lee , Neal Cotts, an outfielder from the minor-league stable that includes Jeremy Reed, Brian Anderson, Ryan Sweeney and Joe Borchard, and maybe another minor-league pitcher? Then the Sox move Ordonez to the highest bidder.

Okay, ***... So is that mean Konerko can hit cleanup after Lee and Ordonez are moved? There's one word for these proposed moves: retarded.

valposoxfan
05-20-2004, 12:47 AM
Man, do things like this scare me. I really don't want to see Maggs go...even with those two, this team is not the same without Ordonez. It just looks like a lose - lose situation either way right now...whether it be Beltran of Johnson and Finley.

batmanZoSo
05-20-2004, 12:56 AM
Originally posted by Win1ForMe
Phil Rogers is the new Sam Smith.



LINK (http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/columnists/cs-040519rogersonbaseball,1,1566370.column?coll=cs-home-utility)

EDIT~

I just re-read the article, and look at this:



Okay, ***... So is that mean Konerko can hit cleanup after Lee and Ordonez are moved? There's one word for these proposed moves: retarded.

Why would the re-building Diamondbacks want a rent a player just to save a few million bucks for this year? They wouldn't. If we're getting RJ it's for prospects...and lot's of em.

As for Lee, Cotts and Borchard...I'd do it in a second. I wouldn't give up any of the other three oufielders.

Win1ForMe
05-20-2004, 01:07 AM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo
Why would the re-building Diamondbacks want a rent a player just to save a few million bucks for this year? They wouldn't. If we're getting RJ it's for prospects...and lot's of em.

As for Lee, Cotts and Borchard...I'd do it in a second. I wouldn't give up any of the other three oufielders.

Who are we trading to the D'backs that's a rent-a-player?

batmanZoSo
05-20-2004, 01:08 AM
Originally posted by Win1ForMe
Who are we trading to the D'backs that's a rent-a-player?

Nobody.

SEALgep
05-20-2004, 01:19 AM
I think the author of this article underestimates our prospects. That's a lot to give up for those guys I think. Lee is one thing, but I'm not prepared to move Cotts. Getting Johnson would be pretty awesome, but $16 million seems like a lot, and I wonder if the Sox would take that on for a pitcher. We'll see, but this deal seems unlikely to me.

MisterB
05-20-2004, 03:31 AM
No offense, Phil (and I know you're out there somewhere), but that's a steaming dung pile you got there. I don't think even adding Randy Johnson to the rotation would make up for running an outfield of Finley, Rowand and Gload out there. Not to mention the fact that come opening day 2005 we have NO legitimate outfield at all: no Maggs, no Lee, no Finley, and (possibly) not even Reed or Borchard. That's just dumb.

owensmouth
05-20-2004, 03:53 AM
He wants us to give away whatever future we might have for Randy Johnson. Johnson is 40 years old. He'll play for maybe two more years.

When you trade youth for experience, you get older.

Whereever Johnson goes, it'll be where RJ wants to go. He's never shown any interest in the south side of Chicago.

He would put some fannies in those blue seats. Without Ordonez and Lee, the Sox would be emptiing those seats.

In order to win the championship, the Sox have to add, not subtract quality players.

doublem23
05-20-2004, 03:55 AM
Doesn't Johnson have a no-trade clause? Isn't his family in Arizona? He's got a ring, got the perfect game, he's a shoe-in Hall of Famer, why would he come back to the American League?

hose
05-20-2004, 07:33 AM
Johnson is going to be 41 in September and has never given up more hits than innings pitched in any complete season.

So far the Big Unit has given up 125 hits in 114 innings, and this is after his perfect game. His era is a whopping 4.26, so he isn't getting the results that we have grown to expect.

I can't see trading away the whole farm system on a guy that could break down at any minute.

SoxOnTop
05-20-2004, 08:03 AM
Originally posted by hose
Johnson is going to be 41 in September and has never given up more hits than innings pitched in any complete season.

So far the Big Unit has given up 125 hits in 114 innings, and this is after his perfect game. His era is a whopping 4.26, so he isn't getting the results that we have grown to expect.

I can't see trading away the whole farm system on a guy that could break down at any minute.


Where are you getting these stats? ESPN.com has him at

63 IP, 34 H, 2.43 ERA, 81 SO and .79 WHIP.

This is exactly what the Sox need. We have 4 pitchers that have been pitching pretty well, but no bonified Ace. Having Johnson at the top of the rotation makes each pitcher better and turns our staff into an absolute BEAST. I don't know about an outfield with Rowand, Finley and Gload, but Randy Johnson not only puts us in the playoffs, but makes us a legit contender.

BTW - he's a 5 and 10 guy so he has veto power over a trade.

samram
05-20-2004, 08:14 AM
The one way I could see something like this working would require the Sox to add a lot of payroll. They can't just give up Maggs because, as someone posted earlier, the lineup, even with Finley, woudl really be lacking. However, if they did the Johnson-Finley trade, and then swung a three team deal with Maggs going to KC for Beltran, and then Maggs going to the highest bidder with prospects to KC, I could maybe see it. That way, Beltran is in CF, with Finley in LF or RF, and then one of the guys Rogers named playing the other corner OF spot. At least the lineup would be more balanced. The problem with that would be in order to sign Beltran, the Sox would have to find a taker for RJ after the season, which at $16M, may be difficult. If it meant a WS championship, I would do it, but it could leave the team in a bind after the season.

Realist
05-20-2004, 08:17 AM
Flame away, but I consider Maggs to be the second most overrated right fielder in baseball.

Yeah yeah. I've seen his stats over his whole career, but for guy as worshipped as he is by White Sox fans, how often is he the guy that pushes us over the top and wins games in the late innings with his heroics? Where was he in Minnesota last September when we really needed him? Where was he in 2000 when we really needed him?

If we win 12-3, Maggs will go 4 for 5 and drive in 3 runs. If we're down by a run in the late innings with runners on first and second with one out, I'm betting he hits into a double play and I'm sorry that a .220 hitting Valentin or Crede wasn't at bat because they're at least clutch hitters.

Unload Ordonez now while we can get some something for him.

Frank carries the Sox. Ordonez pads his own stats.

*putting on the teflon suit*

Bobby Thigpen
05-20-2004, 08:52 AM
how often is he the guy that pushes us over the top and wins games in the late innings with his heroics?

I don't have the stats before me right now, but Sports Illustrated recently did an article on "clutch" hitting late in games and Maggs had the second highest "clutch" BA of active players in the game, and had one of the highest of all time. I think that would count as being able to deliver late in games.

rahulsekhar
05-20-2004, 08:55 AM
Originally posted by owensmouth
He wants us to give away whatever future we might have for Randy Johnson. Johnson is 40 years old. He'll play for maybe two more years.

When you trade youth for experience, you get older.



Lip - is that you?

Iwritecode
05-20-2004, 09:01 AM
Originally posted by rahulsekhar
Lip - is that you?

That can't be Lip.

He would actually like to see the Sox go after a bonified "Ace" pitcher instead of waiting for all these "can't miss" prospects...

Realist
05-20-2004, 09:45 AM
Originally posted by Bobby Thigpen
I don't have the stats before me right now, but Sports Illustrated recently did an article on "clutch" hitting late in games and Maggs had the second highest "clutch" BA of active players in the game, and had one of the highest of all time. I think that would count as being able to deliver late in games.

Last year was the first year I can remember that Ordonez would come through with a big hit late in a game and that was only when he was red hot during the stretch run. I'd like to see what "Sports Illustrated" defines as "clutch".

I'm not saying that the guy can't hit. He's proven that he can. What I'm trying to say in a round about way is that if we lose Ordonez, we may end up playing like Seatle and Texas did when they lost Alex Rodriguez.

I'd like to see Ordonez's stats for GiDPs in when the Sox are in a 1 or 2 run games. Something tells me that it ain't pretty.

Somebody please prove me wrong about Ordonez. I'd love to see him in the middle of a "monkey pile" of White Sox players on the pitcher's mound at the Cell in October with me screaming like a little girl from my seat in section 144, but a gut reaction tells me that it ain't gonna happen while he's around.

Last season only two players showed up in Minnesota in September and that was Carlos Lee (damn it... that guy has broken my heart this year) and Carl Everett. As far as I'm concerned, the rest of the hitters might as well have squatted when they peed for those 3 infamous days.

hold2dibber
05-20-2004, 10:04 AM
Originally posted by Realist
Flame away, but I consider Maggs to be the second most overrated right fielder in baseball.

Yeah yeah. I've seen his stats over his whole career, but for guy as worshipped as he is by White Sox fans, how often is he the guy that pushes us over the top and wins games in the late innings with his heroics? Where was he in Minnesota last September when we really needed him? Where was he in 2000 when we really needed him?

If we win 12-3, Maggs will go 4 for 5 and drive in 3 runs. If we're down by a run in the late innings with runners on first and second with one out, I'm betting he hits into a double play and I'm sorry that a .220 hitting Valentin or Crede wasn't at bat because they're at least clutch hitters.

Unload Ordonez now while we can get some something for him.

Frank carries the Sox. Ordonez pads his own stats.

*putting on the teflon suit*

Are you just making this up or have you actually looked at some stats to see how he's done, for example, with runners in scoring position, in "close and late" situations, etc.? Personally, I don't think there's any validity to this - my guess is that Maggs' production in "clutch" situations is similar to his production at all other times; and even if it isn't, a 3 run bomb in the first inning of a game is just as important as the clutch hit in the 9th that wins it by a run.

(And as an aside - great sig; Afghan Whigs = best band ever)

mantis1212
05-20-2004, 10:16 AM
Originally posted by SEALgep
I think the author of this article underestimates our prospects. That's a lot to give up for those guys I think. Lee is one thing, but I'm not prepared to move Cotts. Getting Johnson would be pretty awesome, but $16 million seems like a lot, and I wonder if the Sox would take that on for a pitcher. We'll see, but this deal seems unlikely to me.

Rogers always does this, he's a wackadoo. To be fair I think he's just using those players as examples for Johnson/Finley, assuming we get the same caliber for Ordonez.

He's throwing this stuff out there to sell newspapers, I don't think he's ever really in the know

Brian26
05-20-2004, 10:21 AM
The trade for RJ only makes sense if we keep Mags to the end of the season. Why pick up a guy like RJ for some decent prospects for the stretch run or 2nd half (trying to win the bundle, no doubt), and then turn around and give up Mags for prospects? Makes no sense whatsoever. If we picked up RJ, I'd think we would keep Mags for the stretch run also. OR, if we are going to unload Mags, then there's no point in trying to go after RJ.

mantis1212
05-20-2004, 10:29 AM
Originally posted by Brian26
The trade for RJ only makes sense if we keep Mags to the end of the season. Why pick up a guy like RJ for some decent prospects for the stretch run or 2nd half (trying to win the bundle, no doubt), and then turn around and give up Mags for prospects? Makes no sense whatsoever. If we picked up RJ, I'd think we would keep Mags for the stretch run also. OR, if we are going to unload Mags, then there's no point in trying to go after RJ.

I think the thought was to balance out our lineup. We have way too many slow, right-handed sluggers, and the most expensive one is Maggs. These moves would make our rotation formidable while giving us another lefty and some speed.

Rogers knows not to bother discussing a Konerko trade, because no one in their right minds would take him.

Frater Perdurabo
05-20-2004, 10:32 AM
I like the first part of Rogers' speculation - to trade for Johnson and Finley, even at the expense of Lee, Cotts and one of the minor league OF prospects. But at that point they cannot trade Maggs because it would cripple the offense. The only way I consider this a deal is if Konerko returns to first-half 2002 form and he legitimately could hit fifth behind Frank and Finley, and Crede starts producing. That way, Konerko and Crede would be in position to collect RBIs in bunches. Otherwise they can't lose both Lee and Maggs and still hope to compete. Going after Juan Gonzalez would be the worst possible mistake they could make.

SEALgep
05-20-2004, 10:35 AM
Originally posted by doublem23
Doesn't Johnson have a no-trade clause? Isn't his family in Arizona? He's got a ring, got the perfect game, he's a shoe-in Hall of Famer, why would he come back to the American League? There has been talk that he wants to be traded.

Frater Perdurabo
05-20-2004, 10:43 AM
Originally posted by SEALgep
There has been talk that he wants to be traded.

I must say that Johnson would look great at 35th and Shields.

There might be a side benefit. Perhaps he could mentor fellow 8-footer Rauch? :D:

batmanZoSo
05-20-2004, 10:57 AM
Originally posted by SEALgep
There has been talk that he wants to be traded.

As long as we're not gutting our farm system or trading Maggs it's worth it. He won 3 games in the 2001 world series including games 6 and 7. We just need a win out of Loaiza, Buehrle, Garland or Schoeneweis and we're the champs :smile:

Randar68
05-20-2004, 12:41 PM
Originally posted by Frater Perdurabo
I must say that Johnson would look great at 35th and Shields.

There might be a side benefit. Perhaps he could mentor fellow 8-footer Rauch? :D:

I know you're joking, but height REALLY is the only thing those 2 have in common.

pinwheels3530
05-20-2004, 12:53 PM
How about Korneko and one of the outfield prospects for Mulder or Hudson from Oakland. Keep Maggs!

hold2dibber
05-20-2004, 01:27 PM
Originally posted by pinwheels3530
How about Korneko and one of the outfield prospects for Mulder or Hudson from Oakland. Keep Maggs!

Why would Oakland do that? Answer: they wouldn't, not a million zillion years.

Lip Man 1
05-20-2004, 01:36 PM
There's one point in the story that has been overlooked.

That's where Phil says part of the reason for this deal would be to renew interest with the Sox in the city which has become 'all Cubs, all the time' so to speak.

If that's the justification for the deal it'll never happen...remember we have an owner who has already said on the radio that "Chicago has always been a Cubs town..."

Obviously he doesn't care that he loses market share every season. He certainly didn't care this off season did he?

Lip

Hangar18
05-20-2004, 01:42 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1


If that's the justification for the deal it'll never happen...remember we have an owner who has already said on the radio that "Chicago has always been a Cubs town..."

Obviously he doesn't care that he loses market share every season. He certainly didn't care this off season did he?

Lip

your totally right about that. An Arrogant OWner like Jerry Reinsdorf is the REAL reason the SOX are in the position were in.
It was also Jerry himself who said, just a couple weeks ago that
"Sox fans need to stop worrying about the cubs. They should be Cheering for them". But remember SOX FANS, Jerry Reinsdorf CANT LIVE FOREVER. Hes getting on in years, and hopefully ...............

Brian26
05-20-2004, 01:42 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Obviously he doesn't care that he loses market share every season. He certainly didn't care this off season did he?
Lip

Based on the fact they they reconstructed half of the upper deck to satisfy the on-going complaints of fans and media alike, I would say he must have *some* interest in market share.

Signing overpriced free agents doesn't guarantee market share. It might guarantee some additional up-front season tickets sales before any games are played, but the fans will come out in droves when a good team produces on the field. Every high-priced free agent in the world doesn't guarantee a good ballclub.

Brian26
05-20-2004, 01:43 PM
Originally posted by Hangar18
But remember SOX FANS, Jerry Reinsdorf CANT LIVE FOREVER. Hes getting on in years, and hopefully ...............

Come on, Hangar. Let's not do that to JR :(: It's only baseball.

markp8867
05-20-2004, 01:45 PM
The Diamondbacks give us Finley and we give them Rowand and maybe someone else like Adkins or some other player we really don't need. The D-Backs are happy because they saved money and we now have a centerfielder for the rest of the season who can also hit left handed. Right now we really don't need Johnson especially since his salary is more than Magglio's is!

Let's face it, the Diamondbacks are screwed in this situation. If Arizona thinks any team is going to sell the farm and trade all their good prospects for either one of these two senior citizens, they are sorely mistaken!

samram
05-20-2004, 01:58 PM
Originally posted by markp8867
The Diamondbacks give us Finley and we give them Rowand and maybe someone else like Adkins or some other player we really don't need.

Unfortunately, if there's a player the Sox don't need, most other teams will come to the same conclusion. They won't take a fading prospect and a marginal middle relief prospect at this point. One thing the Sox could do is offer a more highly rated prospect(s) (not sure who) with Rowand, and try to work a salary split with the D-Backs, which would give the Sox more freedom to make a move later.

Lip Man 1
05-20-2004, 02:12 PM
Hangar:

I don't know if good ole Uncle Jerry made that comment about 'cheering' for the Cubs or not but if he did he's trying to pull revisionist history again. (He does that so well!)

In September 1998 at the Sox picnic for season ticket holders, Uncle Jerry showed up to thank everyone for coming. According to witnesses there (this was printed in the newspapers) good ole Unlce Jerry then put on a Braves hat and urged everyone to go home 'and root for the Braves...' (who were playing the Cubs in the NLDS.

Cheer for the Cubs eh?

Lip

markp8867
05-20-2004, 02:45 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Hangar:

I don't know if good ole Uncle Jerry made that comment about 'cheering' for the Cubs or not but if he did he's trying to pull revisionist history again. (He does that so well!)

In September 1998 at the Sox picnic for season ticket holders, Uncle Jerry showed up to thank everyone for coming. According to witnesses there (this was printed in the newspapers) good ole Unlce Jerry then put on a Braves hat and urged everyone to go home 'and root for the Braves...' (who were playing the Cubs in the NLDS.

Cheer for the Cubs eh?

Lip

LOL Jerry hates the Cubs and he pokes fun at them quite often. I know he has a good professional relationship with the Cubs organization though. It is all in good fun!