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View Full Version : Marte has been horrible?


jeremyb1
05-19-2004, 04:09 PM
Originally posted by ChiSox14305635
I also believe, among other things, with the shaky job that Marte has been doing, Wunsch should be able to help stabilize the 'pen until Marte works out the kinks. Because right now, he's been horrible.

Originally posted by ChisoxfaninMinny
Im glad wunsch is up here. Marte has been awful.

What is going on here? Marte has an ERA below 4 and solid peripherals in 16 valuable innings. How could he possibly be awful?

Hokiesox
05-19-2004, 04:11 PM
These are white sox fans. As soon as you have one bad outing, you must suck to them, if you have two bad outings, you might suck to the manager. If you continually have bad outings, you get a contract extension.

MRKARNO
05-19-2004, 04:13 PM
4 blown saves in 15 games doesnt exactly inspire a lot of confidence in him. He's a good pitcher who gets stuck in really close games a lot and often blows those really close games. He doesnt do a great job of stranding inheirited runners. I'm not saying he's bad, but he ain't the AL Billy Wagner either

DaveIsHere
05-19-2004, 04:17 PM
Originally posted by Hokiesox
These are white sox fans. As soon as you have one bad outing, you must suck to them, if you have two bad outings, you might suck to the manager. If you continually have bad outings, you get a contract extension.

Wow, if that isn't exactly on the money I don't know what is

JRIG
05-19-2004, 04:29 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
What is going on here? Marte has an ERA below 4 and solid peripherals in 16 valuable innings. How could he possibly be awful?

Don't you understand? The only thing saving us from Damaso Marte "valuable" relief work and Frank clogging the basepaths has been Joe Crede's clutch hitting and the ability of Blly Koch to allow two baserunners an inning and still pick up saves.

thezeker
05-19-2004, 04:31 PM
It is early but there seems to be a good rason for concern. So far Marte does not look like the same pitcher from the last couple of years.

His velocity seems to be down and his pitches seem to be staying up in the strike zone. It also seems when he pitches 2 days in a row he gets hit hard the second day.

I believe there is some concern that Manuel overused him last year and may have hurt his arm. Let's hope this is just another unfounded rumor!!!!

OurBitchinMinny
05-19-2004, 04:40 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
What is going on here? Marte has an ERA below 4 and solid peripherals in 16 valuable innings. How could he possibly be awful?

One bad outing? Are you nuts. A high 3 ERA is not good out of a guy who just has to pitch maybe 1 inning and a guy who should be in the 1 to 2 soemthing range. He was good last year, but so far this year he has been anything but dependable. Everytime the guy comes in he gives up baserunners and runs. He is the guy I feel least comfortable with right now out there. If you feel comfortable with him, good for you, but I have almost 0 confidence in him

jeremyb1
05-19-2004, 04:56 PM
Originally posted by ChisoxfaninMinny
One bad outing? Are you nuts. A high 3 ERA is not good out of a guy who just has to pitch maybe 1 inning and a guy who should be in the 1 to 2 soemthing range. He was good last year, but so far this year he has been anything but dependable. Everytime the guy comes in he gives up baserunners and runs. He is the guy I feel least comfortable with right now out there. If you feel comfortable with him, good for you, but I have almost 0 confidence in him

So if an ERA in the high 3's isn't acceptable (and this escapes the bigger issue that you're assuming he's a lock to remain there) that means we can easily find a better replacement, right? Who do you suggest?

MRKARNO
05-19-2004, 05:02 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
So if an ERA in the high 3's isn't acceptable (and this escapes the bigger issue that you're assuming he's a lock to remain there) that means we can easily find a better replacement, right? Who do you suggest?

It's not the ERA that isn't accetable. It's the fact that he has 4 blown saves that is unacceptable, including one against division rival minnesota which changed the standings by 2 games that may come to bite us in the rear sometime down the road (I dont think it will because I dont see Minny as being a team that can hang with the Sox, but it's a possibility.)

jeremyb1
05-19-2004, 05:04 PM
Originally posted by MRKARNO
4 blown saves in 15 games doesnt exactly inspire a lot of confidence in him. He's a good pitcher who gets stuck in really close games a lot and often blows those really close games. He doesnt do a great job of stranding inheirited runners. I'm not saying he's bad, but he ain't the AL Billy Wagner either

Blown saves might be the only statistic in baseball that is more ridiculous than the save. First of all, how does it make sense that you can get a blown save in an opportunity in which you would not earn a save. You can come in during the seventh inning and earn a blown save and then announcers will talk about how you're 2 for 6 in save opportunities implying you were brought in to save the game six times and failed all but twice.

Second, all you have to do to get a blown save is surrender the lead while you're on the mound. It doesn't even have to be your fault!!! If a pitcher comes in with no outs and the bases loaded and gets a strikeout, a can of corn fly ball which allows the runner on third to tag tying the game, and another strikeout then he's earned a blown save!

In one of his blown saves Marte came in with two runners on and one out and gave up a walk and then got two outs one of which was a flyball tying the score. In another he pitched an inning and two thirds giving up a home run to Carlos Delgado one of the better hitters in the game. If you're going to routinely bring in a pitcher in high pressure situations (ie 1 or 2 run leads) he's going to rack up some blown saves unless his ERA is zero.

I'm not arguing that Marte has been lights out this season. I'd much rather see the pitcher with the sub 2 ERA from last season but he's pitching better than average and better than Koch and there's still quite a bit of baseball left so I'll take it.

jeremyb1
05-19-2004, 05:06 PM
Originally posted by MRKARNO
It's not the ERA that isn't accetable. It's the fact that he has 4 blown saves that is unacceptable, including one against division rival minnesota which changed the standings by 2 games that may come to bite us in the rear sometime down the road (I dont think it will because I dont see Minny as being a team that can hang with the Sox, but it's a possibility.)

I think by evaluating it that way you're punishing him for being such a good player and earning the job of coming in when the game's on the line. Think about the games Koch has come into with 3 or 4 run leads and given up 1 or 2 runs. If he had Marte's job he'd be doing much worse than Marte has.

hold2dibber
05-19-2004, 05:09 PM
The people who say Marte has been "horrible" really have no leg to stand on. But the fact remains that he has been mediocre and a far cry from the Marte we've seen the last two years. Stats for the bullpen guys thus far:

Takatsu: 2.13 ERA, 0.95 WHIP
Cotts: 2.45 ERA, 1.09 WHIP
Adkins: 2.63 ERA, 1.68 WHIP
Jackson: 3.68 ERA, 1.23 WHIP
Marte: 3.86 ERA, 1.35 WHIP
Koch: 4.41 ERA, 1.41 WHIP
Politte: 5.73 ERA, 1.82 WHIP

I wasn't able to find stats for % of inherited runs scored, which I think is a very important stat for relievers. But based on the stats above, it looks like Marte has been outperformed by every one in the pen except Koch and Politte (and he's been about the same as Jackson).

batmanZoSo
05-19-2004, 05:10 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
What is going on here? Marte has an ERA below 4 and solid peripherals in 16 valuable innings. How could he possibly be awful?

No one said he IS horrible, just that he's BEEN horrible, which is much less of an exaggeration. He's been slightly disappointing in the minds of Sox fans and part of that is still lingering from the opening day "fiasco." But of course take that away and his ERA is conisderably lower. He cost us the Twins game and the Royals game (possibly another I don't know), but those two were big and things like that stick out when a guy's supposed to be a rock in the pen.

He hasn't been horrible but he sure hasn't inspired maximum confidence this year.

MRKARNO
05-19-2004, 05:32 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
I think by evaluating it that way you're punishing him for being such a good player and earning the job of coming in when the game's on the line. Think about the games Koch has come into with 3 or 4 run leads and given up 1 or 2 runs. If he had Marte's job he'd be doing much worse than Marte has.

OK while I recind my comment that he has been unacceptable, he hasnt been that great for a Set-up Man on a contending ballclub.

Brad Lidge, Francisco Rodriguez, Tom Gordon, Juan Rincon, Guillermo Mota, Latroy Hawkins, and heck even Alan Embree. Just a few examples of Set-up men on contending teams that have been better than Marte this year and I consider the Sox a contending team. When it's all said and done I think that Marte will rank among them and not below them, but it's tough to have confidence in him in close games now that he has shown a propenisty to give up leads.

samram
05-19-2004, 05:37 PM
Originally posted by MRKARNO
OK while I recind my comment that he has been unacceptable, he hasnt been that great for a Set-up Man on a contending ballclub.

Brad Lidge, Francisco Rodriguez, Tom Gordon, Juan Rincon, Guillermo Mota, Latroy Hawkins, and heck even Alan Embree. Just a few examples of Set-up men on contending teams that have been better than Marte this year and I consider the Sox a contending team. When it's all said and done I think that Marte will rank among them and not below them, but it's tough to have confidence in him in close games now that he has shown a propenisty to give up leads.

I agree. I definitely hope he can approcah K-Rod or Mota. K-Rod's ERA is about .4 with 33 strikeouts in 22 IP. The problem with Marte so far is his control. He has walked too many and fallen behind too many others. But he is a great asset because he can get both righties and lefties out and I think he will be a top ten set-up man by the end of the year.

lowesox
05-20-2004, 01:18 AM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
Takatsu: 2.13 ERA, 0.95 WHIP
Cotts: 2.45 ERA, 1.09 WHIP
Adkins: 2.63 ERA, 1.68 WHIP
Jackson: 3.68 ERA, 1.23 WHIP
Marte: 3.86 ERA, 1.35 WHIP
Koch: 4.41 ERA, 1.41 WHIP
Politte: 5.73 ERA, 1.82 WHIP


I'm not really going to comment on this topic because I think it's rediculous to assume that Marte isn't going to rebound from a mediocre start - because he will. But I just wanted to say, those are some pretty decent numbers. Much better than I would've expected.

Kenny deserves a thumbs up on bullpen so far this season.

jeremyb1
05-20-2004, 01:31 AM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
\Takatsu: 2.13 ERA, 0.95 WHIP
Cotts: 2.45 ERA, 1.09 WHIP
Adkins: 2.63 ERA, 1.68 WHIP
Jackson: 3.68 ERA, 1.23 WHIP
Marte: 3.86 ERA, 1.35 WHIP
Koch: 4.41 ERA, 1.41 WHIP
Politte: 5.73 ERA, 1.82 WHIP

Hehe. It's going to be fun watching Adkins trying to maintain that ERA as long as he walks more batters than he strikes out.

hold2dibber
05-20-2004, 08:05 AM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
Hehe. It's going to be fun watching Adkins trying to maintain that ERA as long as he walks more batters than he strikes out.

"Fun" isn't the word I'd use. :D: