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Randar68
05-19-2004, 03:27 PM
Please vote for which you'd rather have. For example, if you'd rather have Beltran, even if you had to pay 2 million per season more than you'd have to pay Maggs, you'd select the last option...

> Please look at their stats all the way around before voting and use your head, not your heart.

OEO Magglio
05-19-2004, 03:32 PM
I absolutely love maggs, but Beltran is a better player and like you randar I'd rather have beltran at 16 million then maggs at 14 million. That being said Beltran won't be on the sox this year or anywhere in the near future.

Randar68
05-19-2004, 03:35 PM
Originally posted by OEO Magglio
I absolutely love maggs, but Beltran is a better player and like you randar I'd rather have beltran at 16 million then maggs at 14 million. That being said Beltran won't be on the sox this year or anywhere in the near future.

I agree. This is just guaging the public's opinion on the matter. I don't think there's much to debate about it, then again... who knows...

ChiSox7
05-19-2004, 03:37 PM
Originally posted by OEO Magglio
I absolutely love maggs, but Beltran is a better player and like you randar I'd rather have beltran at 16 million then maggs at 14 million. That being said Beltran won't be on the sox this year or anywhere in the near future.

Beltran is big time clutch. That's why I like him. We need a middle of the order clutch hitter like that

rahulsekhar
05-19-2004, 03:37 PM
I can't see where the debate is.

Average: Even or Beltran
Power: Even (although Beltran's showing more this year)
Speed: Huge advantage Beltran
Defense: Huge advantage Beltran
Plays a tougher position to fill: Beltran
Has shown to be a clutch player: Beltran
Has shown he can carry a team: Beltran
Has a cool chant: Magglio (Any Sox fans in KC - is there a cool Beltran chant? Please?)

Seriously: How could anyone rationally want Maggs over Carlos? About the only debate I can see is that Maggs might be $2mil or so cheaper/yr, but even at that discount I'd say he's overpriced and Beltran's about right.

Chisoxfn
05-19-2004, 03:37 PM
Simple. I suggested this idea on another board a few days ago and to me its pretty clear cut. Beltran is a player worth about 15 mill a year while Maggs is a player worth 11-12 mill a year.

rahulsekhar
05-19-2004, 03:37 PM
OK, fess up: who voted Maggs over Beltran at equal salaries?

Randar68
05-19-2004, 03:42 PM
Originally posted by Chisoxfn
Simple. I suggested this idea on another board a few days ago and to me its pretty clear cut. Beltran is a player worth about 15 mill a year while Maggs is a player worth 11-12 mill a year.

I agree that is probably about what the market will bear. Unless someone get's into a bidding war with the Yankees and they push it much higher just to make a point. I really am not sure the Yankees can do this with Giambi, Jeter, Sheff, and A-Rod already on the team and their pitching needs...

Then again, George might just do it out of spite...

fquaye149
05-19-2004, 03:47 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
I agree. This is just guaging the public's opinion on the matter. I don't think there's much to debate about it, then again... who knows...

i guess public opinion on beltran is pretty high, so much so that maggs' greatness is forgotten


I can list three (albeit significant) advantages beltran holds over maggs:

1. defense
2. speed
3. GIDP

now, these advantages are not to be understated, as they are quite significant. However, we might address all but the last which is inexcusable on Maggs' part.

First, defense is a definite advantage, although Beltran is hardly an elite outfielder. He is capable of making great plays, but his arm is average. Magglio is not a big play guy, nor does he have a right field arm nor is he capable of playing center field, but his defense is quite satisfactory, if not better.

Speed is an issue, and Beltran is certainly a good base stealer, but Maggs is not as slow as his numbers make him out to be, and he will never clog up the basepaths.

Admittedly, these are significant advantages Beltran holds over Magglio. However, let's not ignore the advantages Magglio has over Beltran. In the past five years Beltran has not outhomered or out hit or out ops'ed Magglio once. He has only out rbied him once. Beltran is certainly a five tools player and a fine one at that, but Magglio is a far superior hitter in all aspects but walks, and Magglio's OBP and OPS do not suffer to Beltran on account of his walking less.

Also Beltran has benefited from hitting in front of sweeney and ibanez or gonzalez. Magglio until this season has not had as much lineup protection behind him.


While Beltran might be a marginally better choice for our team, I am not sure the statistics are cut and dry in Beltran's favor.

Add into the mix the fact that Magglio has expressed a desire to play here in the future while Beltran has expressed no such desire (and has Boras for an agent) and I think the smart move is in keeping Magglio for the future. If we can get Beltran for the rest of the year, great and for longer, great too, but my support of Magglio over Beltran in a mutually exclusive situation is certainly not just based in my fondness for magglio

ma_deuce
05-19-2004, 03:48 PM
Betran over Maggs in a second. Too bad it will never happen.

Deuce

fquaye149
05-19-2004, 03:52 PM
Originally posted by rahulsekhar
I can't see where the debate is.

Average: Even or Beltran
Power: Even (although Beltran's showing more this year)
Speed: Huge advantage Beltran
Defense: Huge advantage Beltran
Plays a tougher position to fill: Beltran
Has shown to be a clutch player: Beltran
Has shown he can carry a team: Beltran
Has a cool chant: Magglio (Any Sox fans in KC - is there a cool Beltran chant? Please?)



I didn't even see this

AVERAGE IS NOT EVEN OR BELTRAN! Beltran has never batted higher than Magglio

POWER is not Beltran or even, Magglio has always outhomered Beltran and out slugged him

SPEED and DEFENSE and TOUGHER POSITION certainly go to Beltran, but huge advantage might be an overstatement

CLUTCH PLAYER and CARRY A TEAM are interesting choices on your part. Ignoring the idea that clutch hitters don't exist (and you'll find a lot of people who believe this) what makes Beltran a clutch hitter and leader and Maggs not?
Come on, if Beltran carries the Royals (to a 14-28 record) even with sweeney and gonzalez on the team, certainly Magglio carries the White Sox. And Magglio is just as capable of getting clutch hits.

Let's ignore your last category


LOOK. Beltran is a great player, probably more valuable than Maggs, but Rob Neyer was partly right:

you all need to get off the Baseball Tonight Harold Reynolds crack: Beltran IS a great player. He is NOT a top 5 in the majors player nor is he the second coming of Christ.

OfficerKarkovice
05-19-2004, 03:59 PM
Very interesting read (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=neyer_rob&id=1803222)

I still take Beltran over Maggs but only at equal salaries.

kittle42
05-19-2004, 04:16 PM
This whole discussion is about as realistic as a sportsline.com message board trade proposal.

But I did vote for Beltran + the two mil.

rahulsekhar
05-19-2004, 04:42 PM
Originally posted by fquaye149
I didn't even see this

AVERAGE IS NOT EVEN OR BELTRAN! Beltran has never batted higher than Magglio

POWER is not Beltran or even, Magglio has always outhomered Beltran and out slugged him

I stand corrected, I thought Carlos beat maggs out last year in both categories. I'll give Maggs average, but Maggs looks like a solid 30-35 HR guy. and I think Beltran is there as well - he's 3 years younger and seems to have found his power stroke this year (albiet small sample size)

SPEED and DEFENSE and TOUGHER POSITION certainly go to Beltran, but huge advantage might be an overstatement
Carlos dominates Maggs in the speed category. Maggs hasn't even cracked double digits the past few years in SB. Defense: Maggs is above average, but Carlos can go get it with anyone this side of Torriiiiiiii Hunter.


CLUTCH PLAYER and CARRY A TEAM are interesting choices on your part. Ignoring the idea that clutch hitters don't exist (and you'll find a lot of people who believe this) what makes Beltran a clutch hitter and leader and Maggs not?
Come on, if Beltran carries the Royals (to a 14-28 record) even with sweeney and gonzalez on the team, certainly Magglio carries the White Sox. And Magglio is just as capable of getting clutch hits.


Maybe I should rephrase that to "carry an offense". The Royals are getting OK production from Sweeney, and poor production from just about everyone else including Gonazlez. However the reason their record is as bad as it is is their pitching (or lack thereof), something Beltran has no control over.

The clutch aspect is that in 220AB over the past 3 years, Maggs hits .282 with RISP+2out, in 217 similar ABs, Beltran hits .309.

Also, I think Beltran is still improving offensively(at least he appears to be judging by his performance so far this year), whereas Maggs seems relatively settle down in his performance (not to say he can't improve, but his #s are relatively consistent the past few years with 2002 looking like an outlier plus he's older than Carlos by 3 years).

JohnBasedowYoda
05-19-2004, 04:45 PM
maggs isn't cutting it, but i really don't wanna see him go. give him a shot because not doing so would be giving up on a homegrown hero. he'll pull through for us.

SEALgep
05-19-2004, 05:20 PM
I would love to have Beltran over Maggs even at two more mill a year. The corners are an easier spot to fill anyhow, especially with Reed being better suited for that spot than CF. I agree it probably won't happen, and with that said, I would love to have Maggs than neither. At the same time though, the money has to be appropriate.