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LASOXFAN
05-19-2004, 02:28 AM
Crede continues to swing for the fence with a long swing and tries to pull every ball. He usually dips his right shoulder and winds up popping out. It seems like he's ignoring Walker's instructions to shorten his swing and drive the ball to right. With the exception of a few outbursts, which I assume are simply temporary hot streaks, I've seen nothing to convince me that he can hit at the major league level with any consistency.

His defense is solid but is anyone convinced that this guy can hit major league pitching?

SoxxoS
05-19-2004, 02:33 AM
I'm having my doubts as well...His swings are so bad, it's blatently obvious to everyone watching.

However, knowing he is doing something wrong and doing something about it are two totally different things. Walker needs to get him on track. If he continues to hit like this, that means we no longer have the "long term" fixture at third base.

kermittheefrog
05-19-2004, 02:35 AM
Remember that game winning home run Crede had back in mid-April? That makes it okay he hits .208 and never walks because he's clutch.

SoxxoS
05-19-2004, 02:39 AM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
Remember that game winning home run Crede had back in mid-April? That makes it okay he hits .208 and never walks because he's clutch.

LOL!

Don't worry kermit. The Sox have an AWESOME track record with middle infielders.

CanOfCorn
05-19-2004, 03:04 AM
He's no Herb Perry, but he did rally back after a slow start to hit above .250 last year.

I wouldn't panic yet.

SoxxoS
05-19-2004, 03:06 AM
Originally posted by CanOfCorn
He's no Herb Perry, but he did rally back after a slow start to hit above .250 last year.

I wouldn't panic yet.

I had higher hopes than a .250 hitter that doesn't walk a lot with Crede. If he doesn't watch out, he could become "The Choice II"

LASOXFAN
05-19-2004, 03:11 AM
Originally posted by CanOfCorn
He's no Herb Perry, but he did rally back after a slow start to hit above .250 last year.

I wouldn't panic yet.

not really panicking yet, just waiting to see some of the highly touted potential come to pass. You've got to admit, he swings that big bat for the fence every time.

mdep524
05-19-2004, 03:16 AM
Originally posted by LASOXFAN
Crede continues to swing for the fence with a long swing and tries to pull every ball. He usually dips his right shoulder and winds up popping out. It seems like he's ignoring Walker's instructions to shorten his swing and drive the ball to right. With the exception of a few outbursts, which I assume are simply temporary hot streaks, I've seen nothing to convince me that he can hit at the major league level with any consistency.

His defense is solid but is anyone convinced that this guy can hit major league pitching?

I believe he can hit major league pitching. We saw it in September of '02 (he hit .333 that month) and post-All Star break '03 (when he hit .308). It didn't feel like just a "hot streak" either time, it seemed like he really was going to be a good hitter.

Why he has to suck every April is beyond me, but I'm not ready to give up on him entirely though.

SoxxoS
05-19-2004, 03:24 AM
His recent swings look like they take about 10 seconds to finish.

ode to veeck
05-19-2004, 04:45 AM
If he doesn't watch out, he could become "The Choice II"

Bite your tongue. The Crede's worst Aprils are still better than Choice's sub-mendoza line springs, and his fielding is light years ahead of the Choice, e.g, you never saw the Crede run from a tough grounder to pad his stats.

illiniwhitesox
05-19-2004, 08:13 AM
I agree that Crede has been frustrating this year, as I was hopeful that he would make strides off of LY. I believe he has the potential to be a gold-glover with solid offensive stats. Then again, everyone said the same about Durham when he came up through the minors.

The only time I have seen him shorten his swing and drive the ball to the opposite field has been when the game is on the line. There is no denying that he has come through for the Sox in these situations. I just wish he would replicate this kind of hitting approach all the time.

I'm not a hitting expert, but I do remember basic fundamentals from when I played in high-school. He seems to have an active body prior to the pitch. He constantly dips or leads with his shoulder and he has a very long stroke.

Does anyone know what Walker is working with him on? I would love to know.

wdelaney72
05-19-2004, 09:40 AM
I would consider putting Crede on the block. If a team is willing to offer a valuable CF or Starting pitcher - do it. We could find a veteran 3B out there that could do what Joe is doing now.

I like Joe. Someday he'll be a smarter, more consistent hitter, but if we can benefit from moving him, I'm all for it.

Frater Perdurabo
05-19-2004, 09:43 AM
Crede's average is disappointment to me. He's something of a mirror image of Konerko.

A good team can afford to carry one right-handed hitter who hits for decent power but has a low average. But it's tougher to carry two.

The difference is that Crede is younger, is an absolute vacuum at a tougher position, and that the Sox have no third base prospects coming up through the minors. That's why, IMHO, Konerko is expendable. (Trading that contract is another thing entirely.)

Frater Perdurabo
05-19-2004, 09:47 AM
Originally posted by wdelaney72
I would consider putting Crede on the block. If a team is willing to offer a valuable CF or Starting pitcher - do it. We could find a veteran 3B out there that could do what Joe is doing now.

I like Joe. Someday he'll be a smarter, more consistent hitter, but if we can benefit from moving him, I'm all for it.

Given the circumstances, I would not trade Crede unless I was blown away with an offer. That is, the other team would have to over-pay for him.

I remember the "dark ages" of the 1980s and the late 90s (before and after Robin Ventura) when the Sox didn't have a decent third baseman. There is nothing worse than seeing a converted outfielder, first baseman or second baseman trying to field the "hot corner." And the trouble is that whomever the Sox played at 3B couldn't make up for his poor fielding with great hitting.

Win1ForMe
05-19-2004, 10:13 AM
Originally posted by LASOXFAN
Crede continues to swing for the fence with a long swing and tries to pull every ball. He usually dips his right shoulder and winds up popping out. It seems like he's ignoring Walker's instructions to shorten his swing and drive the ball to right. With the exception of a few outbursts, which I assume are simply temporary hot streaks, I've seen nothing to convince me that he can hit at the major league level with any consistency.

His defense is solid but is anyone convinced that this guy can hit major league pitching?

I've been saying this about Crede for a while now. He's been the most defended player on these boards this season and I have no idea why. I've actually seen him compared favorably to Robin Ventura which was a joke (a Royce Clayton/Tony Bautista comparison seems a lot closer to me). In addition, I've been shot down when proposing to trade Crede.

I believe he can hit major league pitching. We saw it in September of '02 (he hit .333 that month) and post-All Star break '03 (when he hit .308). It didn't feel like just a "hot streak" either time, it seemed like he really was going to be a good hitter.

The post all-star break .308 is pretty misleading because there's really only one good month out of the bunch (.244 JUL / .352 AUG / .288 SEP). So he really had only one good month last year which is pretty Konerko-esque.

mantis1212
05-19-2004, 10:14 AM
Originally posted by CanOfCorn
He's no Herb Perry, but he did rally back after a slow start to hit above .250 last year.

I wouldn't panic yet.

That's one guy we should've never let go. He's not starting in Texas is he? I want him back on the Sox

samram
05-19-2004, 10:24 AM
Originally posted by mantis1212
That's one guy we should've never let go. He's not starting in Texas is he? I want him back on the Sox

Maybe if we can talk Herbert up enough, Texas would start him and trade us Hank Blalock. :D:

Voice of Reason
05-19-2004, 10:24 AM
Originally posted by mantis1212
That's one guy we should've never let go. He's not starting in Texas is he? I want him back on the Sox

Hank Blalock is starting in Texas and has been for two years now. Herb Perry played all of 11 games in the majors last year and would be 35 this year. He's not the answer to anyone's 3B problem.

Malgar 12
05-19-2004, 10:48 AM
The post all-star break .308 is pretty misleading because there's really only one good month out of the bunch (.244 JUL / .352 AUG / .288 SEP). So he really had only one good month last year which is pretty Konerko-esque. [/B][/QUOTE]

you consider .288 a bad month? chopping the avg. by months is arbitrary anyway. .308 for the second half is impressive any way you slice it. Crede is not playing particularly well. He is however young, clutch and great defensively, those are three great reasons to give him more time and patience. Not to mention the "cheap" contract. We get rid of him and we're nuts.

Especially on a team of disappearing acts. Thomas, Maggs, both disappeared last year against the Twinkies and Thomas is nothing but popups in the playoffs. Anyone showing any semblance of a good bat in pressure situations must be kept.

Win1ForMe
05-19-2004, 10:56 AM
Originally posted by Malgar 12
you consider .288 a bad month? chopping the avg. by months is arbitrary anyway. .308 for the second half is impressive any way you slice it. Crede is not playing particularly well. He is however young, clutch and great defensively, those are three great reasons to give him more time and patience. Not to mention the "cheap" contract. We get rid of him and we're nuts.

Here we go again...

Malgar 12
05-19-2004, 11:42 AM
Originally posted by Win1ForMe
Here we go again...

how about a legitimate respone? If you got a better 3B solution let me know. Also if any of my points were invalid, then why dont you point them out.

ChiSox7
05-19-2004, 01:53 PM
Originally posted by Malgar 12
The post all-star break .308 is pretty misleading because there's really only one good month out of the bunch (.244 JUL / .352 AUG / .288 SEP). So he really had only one good month last year which is pretty Konerko-esque.

you consider .288 a bad month? chopping the avg. by months is arbitrary anyway. .308 for the second half is impressive any way you slice it. Crede is not playing particularly well. He is however young, clutch and great defensively, those are three great reasons to give him more time and patience. Not to mention the "cheap" contract. We get rid of him and we're nuts.

Especially on a team of disappearing acts. Thomas, Maggs, both disappeared last year against the Twinkies and Thomas is nothing but popups in the playoffs. Anyone showing any semblance of a good bat in pressure situations must be kept. [/B][/QUOTE]

I wouldn't exactly call him "Mr. Clutch" despite getting some game winners in APril. Most of those game winners were just long fly balls (sac flys) with 1 out. I would hope any major leaguer could come through in that situation. Its not like he ripped any of those balls.

And to me, hitting .208 through a month and a half doesnt go away by occasionally hitting a fly ball in the right spot. We need a lot more. If most of the Twins backups can hit over .250, then Joe has to.

hold2dibber
05-19-2004, 01:53 PM
Originally posted by Malgar 12
you consider .288 a bad month? chopping the avg. by months is arbitrary anyway. .308 for the second half is impressive any way you slice it. Crede is not playing particularly well. He is however young, clutch and great defensively, those are three great reasons to give him more time and patience. Not to mention the "cheap" contract. We get rid of him and we're nuts.

In the month he hit .288 (.280, actually), his OBP was a pathetic .309 (3 BBs in 93 ABs!). And while you're right that chopping the season into months is somewhat arbitrary, the point is that Joe got molten-lava hat for a short stretch of time last year but ranged from horrible to below-average for the vast majority of the season.

Having said all that, I'm not in favor trading him (unless someone wants to offer Scott Rolen or Eric Chavez for him, if for no other reason than the Sox simply don't have any other legitimate options for 3B beyond this year (unless they resign Jose and make Uribe or Jose an every-day 3B). Plus, I still think he has the potential to be an All-Star caliber 3B. But I now think it's more likely that he's on a "Joe Randa" type career path, with a little more power and a little less AVG/OBP (e.g., .245 avg., 25 HRs, 75 RBIs, .750 OPS).


Especially on a team of disappearing acts. Thomas, Maggs, both disappeared last year against the Twinkies and Thomas is nothing but popups in the playoffs. Anyone showing any semblance of a good bat in pressure situations must be kept.

For the record, Thomas has been in the playoffs twice. In 2000, he sucked (just like everyone else on the team). In 1993, he was awesome - .353 average, OPS of 1.122!

Malgar 12
05-19-2004, 02:10 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
In the month he hit .288 (.280, actually), his OBP was a pathetic .309 (3 BBs in 93 ABs!). And while you're right that chopping the season into months is somewhat arbitrary, the point is that Joe got molten-lava hat for a short stretch of time last year but ranged from horrible to below-average for the vast majority of the season.

Having said all that, I'm not in favor trading him (unless someone wants to offer Scott Rolen or Eric Chavez for him, if for no other reason than the Sox simply don't have any other legitimate options for 3B beyond this year (unless they resign Jose and make Uribe or Jose an every-day 3B). Plus, I still think he has the potential to be an All-Star caliber 3B. But I now think it's more likely that he's on a "Joe Randa" type career path, with a little more power and a little less AVG/OBP (e.g., .245 avg., 25 HRs, 75 RBIs, .750 OPS).




For the record, Thomas has been in the playoffs twice. In 2000, he sucked (just like everyone else on the team). In 1993, he was awesome - .353 average, OPS of 1.122!


I agree with most everything you said. Im not trying to imply that Crede is playing well, only that, as you stated it makes no sense to give up on him yet, or trade him. And of course Im generalizing about him being clutch. The point is he's shown signs of being a clutch hitter. 1993 was over 10 years ago. Thomas did nothing in 2000, and as the supposed team leader wilted in the Metrodome last september.

poorme
05-19-2004, 02:15 PM
Comparing Thomas to Crede in ANY WAY is absurd. Crede will be lucky if his best year equals Thomas' worst.

Frater Perdurabo
05-19-2004, 02:15 PM
The fact remains that it is far too early to be giving up on Crede at this point. If he is still batting below .240 in two years, we can re-evaluate then. The other thing to consider is that his power numbers are decent and they probably will improve as he gains more experience. Even if he's a .250/25 homer guy, the fact that he plays 3B so well makes him much more valuable to the team.

iwannago
05-19-2004, 02:18 PM
Originally posted by poorme
Comparing Thomas to Crede in ANY WAY is absurd. Crede will be lucky if his best year equals Thomas' worst.

I think that's already happened.

poorme
05-19-2004, 02:25 PM
Originally posted by iwannago
I think that's already happened.

no

Malgar 12
05-19-2004, 02:27 PM
Originally posted by iwannago
I think that's already happened.

There was no comparison. It's two seperate points, that have a tertiary relationship. Part of the argument I made in keeping Crede was that he seems to come up with clutch hits.

Thomas like him or not, and there is no doubt he is one of the greatest hitters in sox history has not been a clutch performer. He did NOTHING down the stetch last year and was 0 for 9 in the 2000 playoffs.

The idea being that the Sox have few clutch performers. If crede shows signs, its yet another reason to give him more time before you cast him aside.

lets summarize

1. He's young
2. He's good defensively at a tough position
3. he's cheap
4. There is nobody in the system that could replace him
5. He's shown signs of clutch hitting.

is he playing well, no
but to argue we get rid of him now for a bag of baseball's
that's Konerko talk

If crede is still struggling at years end then you consider your options.

poorme
05-19-2004, 02:36 PM
There are no other choices besides Crede right now.

The clutch thing is bogus. If I believed in clutch hitting, I'd point you to Crede's .161 average with runners in scoring position.

bigdommer
05-19-2004, 02:56 PM
I've always been a Crede fan because he is the first guy on this team to be brought up to play defense first. I agree with hold2dibber, outside of Rolen or Chavez, there aren't many superstar third basemen. I think Crede will always be a guy in the mid .200's, and he will settle in to hit around 30 homeruns and drive in 90, depending on where he will be in the order. That is pretty above average for a thirdbaseman, especially one who plays great defense. He's still young, and he'll learn. And about his numbers this year's first half and last year's first half, it seems like everyone on this team starts slow.

Voice of Reason
05-19-2004, 04:02 PM
Originally posted by bigdommer
outside of Rolen or Chavez, there aren't many superstar third basemen.

Arod
Hank Blalock
Troy Glaus

In addition to those guys, Mike Lowell has been playing like a superstar third baseman for over a year now. Melvin Mora randomly learned to hit and he's playing third these days. Sean Burroughs and Adrian Beltre are both full of potential. Beltre has even played up to it this year. There are a lot of third basemen who can hit right now and a handful of players with ridiculous unfulfilled talent playing third. It's not like the 90's when Robin Ventura and Matt Williams were the best third basemen of the decade. No knock on those guys, they were good players but no one is going to confuse either of them with George Brett.

MRKARNO
05-19-2004, 04:10 PM
Originally posted by Voice of Reason
Arod
Hank Blalock
Troy Glaus

In addition to those guys, Mike Lowell has been playing like a superstar third baseman for over a year now. Melvin Mora randomly learned to hit and he's playing third these days. Sean Burroughs and Adrian Beltre are both full of potential. Beltre has even played up to it this year. There are a lot of third basemen who can hit right now and a handful of players with ridiculous unfulfilled talent playing third. It's not like the 90's when Robin Ventura and Matt Williams were the best third basemen of the decade. No knock on those guys, they were good players but no one is going to confuse either of them with George Brett.

Morgan Ensberg is turning out pretty good and let's not let our bias overlook the way Aramis Ramirez has been playing this year.

poorme
05-19-2004, 04:27 PM
TEAM OPS
B Mueller* 0.938
S Rolen* 0.91
M Ensberg* 0.907
M Lowell* 0.881
H Blalock* 0.872
E Chavez* 0.864
C Koskie* 0.845
A Boone* 0.808
T Glaus* 0.807
J Randa* 0.8
A Ramirez* 0.788
W Helms* 0.78
V Castilla* 0.771
E Hinske* 0.765
S Burroughs* 0.755
E Munson* 0.753
C Stynes* 0.748
J Crede* 0.741
E Alfonzo* 0.726
C Blake* 0.723
T Wigginton* 0.714
A Beltre* 0.714
G Blum* 0.674
D Rolls* 0.666
T Batista* 0.663
J Hernandez* 0.634
S Halter* 0.611

His OPS so far this year is .656.

Deadguy
05-20-2004, 01:18 AM
Originally posted by Malgar 12

Thomas like him or not, and there is no doubt he is one of the greatest hitters in sox history has not been a clutch performer. He did NOTHING down the stetch last year and was 0 for 9 in the 2000 playoffs.


That's ridiculous. You're judging a player based on very small sample sizes.

lowesox
05-20-2004, 02:08 AM
Why is it we White Sox fans always expect players to be superstars right away? That hardly ever happens. We've got a pretty good offensive team even if Crede doesn't contribute that much. Let's give him a few years and if he isn't hitting Frank Thomas-like numbers, then we can call him washed up.

I can't wait until Reed gets called up so that everybody can start calling him overhyped.

hold2dibber
05-20-2004, 10:52 AM
Originally posted by lowesox
Why is it we White Sox fans always expect players to be superstars right away? That hardly ever happens. We've got a pretty good offensive team even if Crede doesn't contribute that much. Let's give him a few years and if he isn't hitting Frank Thomas-like numbers, then we can call him washed up.

I can't wait until Reed gets called up so that everybody can start calling him overhyped.

I hear you and agree to an extent. But Crede has nearly 1,000 MLB at-bats under his belt, so it's not like he's a rookie. He has a .298 OBP for his career and a .736 OPS. His defense has been good, but I for one would have thought that he would have developed some consistency at the plate by now. I'm not giving up on him by any stretch of the imagination, but I am a little disappointed and surprised that its taking him this long to establish himself.

bigdommer
05-20-2004, 11:35 AM
Originally posted by Voice of Reason
Arod
Hank Blalock
Troy Glaus

In addition to those guys, Mike Lowell has been playing like a superstar third baseman for over a year now. Melvin Mora randomly learned to hit and he's playing third these days. Sean Burroughs and Adrian Beltre are both full of potential. Beltre has even played up to it this year. There are a lot of third basemen who can hit right now and a handful of players with ridiculous unfulfilled talent playing third. It's not like the 90's when Robin Ventura and Matt Williams were the best third basemen of the decade. No knock on those guys, they were good players but no one is going to confuse either of them with George Brett.

I don't consider A-Rod a third baseman. He is a shortstop on any other team. Troy Glaus is awesome, but he has had major injuries two years in a row, he is an average (at best) defensive third baseman, and he boasts a career .254 average. Blalock may be a superstar in the making, but he has only played one full season, way too early to tell. Mike Lowell is solid and underrated until last year, good on defense, good bat. An all-star, but not sure about superstar. Melvin Mora is absolutely dreadful defensively. And we may wait forever for Beltre to put together a solid year, or live up to his potential. He is also a headcase in the field.

When you consider third basemen who are great with the glove and the bat, year after year, I think there is quite a drop off after Chavez and Rolen. That being said, I think Crede is an average all-around third baseman right now, and in a couple of years he could be one of the top five 3B's in the AL, if not MLB.