PDA

View Full Version : The Improved Jose Valentin?


jeremyb1
05-18-2004, 04:52 PM
Lost admist these ridiculous suggestions that Jose is not as valuable to the team as Willie Harris and should be benched is the fact that Jose may have become even more valuable than he has been in the past by abandoning switch hitting. Caveats apply regarding sample size but so far this season, Jose has hit .226/.314/.323 against lefties compared to .157/.224/.267 from '01-'03.

SoxxoS
05-18-2004, 04:53 PM
And he is going to get MORE comfortable as the season goes on.

I think Jose is fine. We need his left handed bat. HOWEVER:

CLee
Maggs
Konerko

One of you got to go.

MRKARNO
05-18-2004, 05:07 PM
Originally posted by SoxxoS
And he is going to get MORE comfortable as the season goes on.

I think Jose is fine. We need his left handed bat. HOWEVER:

CLee
Maggs
Konerko

One of you got to go.

Konerko

Kadafi311
05-18-2004, 05:08 PM
There was a point where I heard Griffey Jr.'s name tossed around as a possible trade/acquisition for his left handed bat. Despite what he's gone through the past few seasons, I still believe he has a ton of baseball in him.

How about this lineup:

Harris - 2B
Uribe - SS/DH
Maggs - RF
Thomas - 1B
Griffey - CF
Lee - LF
Valentin - SS/DH
Crede - 3B
Olivo - C

MRKARNO
05-18-2004, 05:10 PM
But Jose's improvement against lefties is pretty good news. Plus it doesn't hurt that he has a 1.000 OPS against righties.

bobj4400
05-18-2004, 05:28 PM
Originally posted by MRKARNO
Konerko Because there is such a huge market for an overpaid piece of crap like Konerko...

ma_deuce
05-18-2004, 05:37 PM
Originally posted by SoxxoS
I think Jose is fine. We need his left handed bat.

Maybe, but we don't need all those throwing errors. He sucks in the infield. Trade him.

Deuce

maurice
05-18-2004, 05:45 PM
So . . . whereas he previously totally sucked against lefties, he only mostly sucked against lefties in 31 ABs this season.

Some other Valentin stats from 2004:
- 20 games
- 9 errors
- .913 fielding %
- 24 Ks / 7 BBs
- .326 OBP
- 34 years old
- $5 million / year

IMHO, Valentin would make a pretty good but overpriced platoon player on a team without Frank Thomas and Juan Uribe.

misty60481
05-18-2004, 05:53 PM
If we get rid of Jose what are we going to do for a left-handed bat we are almost all right handed now, I personally like Jose if he gets on one fo his hot streaks he can carry team for awile---KEEP HIM

voodoochile
05-18-2004, 05:56 PM
Originally posted by ma_deuce
Maybe, but we don't need all those throwing errors. He sucks in the infield. Trade him.

Deuce

You are going to have to do a LOT better than that, IMO to convince me he is a poor defender...

And away we go again... :D:

maurice
05-18-2004, 05:57 PM
Originally posted by misty60481
If we get rid of Jose what are we going to do for a left-handed bat

Trade for one, just like last season. See current threads re. Finely, Olerud, etc.

maurice
05-18-2004, 05:59 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
You are going to have to do a LOT better than that, IMO to convince me he is a poor defender.

Well, considering the topic of this thread is how Valentin performed this year, irrespective of sample size, I'd say that a 1:2 error:game ratio and a .913 fielding % are pretty bad. In any event, Uribe is better.

Win1ForMe
05-18-2004, 06:06 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
Lost admist these ridiculous suggestions that Jose is not as valuable to the team as Willie Harris and should be benched is the fact that Jose may have become even more valuable than he has been in the past by abandoning switch hitting. Caveats apply regarding sample size but so far this season, Jose has hit .226/.314/.323 against lefties compared to .157/.224/.267 from '01-'03.

I'm with you on that. People who want to ship Valentin to the Mariners are complete idiots. Losing his bat would hurt this offense even more.

FarWestChicago
05-18-2004, 06:37 PM
Originally posted by Win1ForMe
I'm with you on that. People who want to ship Valentin to the Mariners are complete idiots. Losing his bat would hurt this offense even more. As you may have gathered from the FOC threads, FO behavior can get quite "passionate". Much of the silliness you hear about Manos comes from the orginators of the FO phenomonon, the FOB's.

:buddylee

That's right, my guys were first!!

SoxBoy14
05-18-2004, 06:46 PM
how about we trade valentin and pk for a good center feilder like Griffy have frank play first

maurice
05-18-2004, 07:29 PM
When it comes to irrational fandom, the FriendsOfPornStache and the FriendsOfGiDPauly are on par with the FOC.

:manos
"Folks don't care if I strike out as often as I reach base, as long as I maintain my perfectly groomed porn stache and frosted tips."

:walnuts
"In addition to my mastery of grounding into the 5-4-3 DP, I'm the BOMB when it comes to starting the 3-6-1 DP. People ignore my GiDP totals, lack of speed, fire hydrant range, and inability to consistently hit well because they'd enjoy having a beer with me."

:rowand
"Why are there so many threads ripping on me, but Konerko and Valentin are off limits? I might suck, but at least I don't get paid the GDP of a small country."

:hurt :keith
"Don't feel bad, Crash. We're All Stars, and plenty of folks still irrationally hate us."

maurice
05-18-2004, 08:09 PM
Originally posted by maurice
Some other Valentin stats from 2004:
- 20 games
- 9 errors
- 24 Ks

Make that:
- 21 games
- 10 errors
- 25Ks

. . . and it's only the second inning.

jeremyb1
05-18-2004, 08:56 PM
Originally posted by maurice
Well, considering the topic of this thread is how Valentin performed this year, irrespective of sample size, I'd say that a 1:2 error:game ratio and a .913 fielding % are pretty bad. In any event, Uribe is better.

Why on earth would you evaluate the situation irrespective of sample size?! Clearly if Jose makes 50 errors as he's on pace to and Uribe continues to post a .911 OPS, Uribe is better. However, you've given no reason why either of these events will occur. Uribe hasn't hit as well recently and Jose's never made more than 37 errors. More importantly though, why is the issue Valentin over Uribe instead of Valentin over Harris or Valentin over Rowand?

jeremyb1
05-18-2004, 08:57 PM
Originally posted by maurice
When it comes to irrational fandom, the FriendsOfPornStache and the FriendsOfGiDPauly are on par with the FOC.

Good idea. Accuse posters that disagree with you of irrational fandom instead of actually responding to their reasoned, specific arguments.

ma_deuce
05-18-2004, 09:26 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
You are going to have to do a LOT better than that, IMO to convince me he is a poor defender...

And away we go again... :D:

If 10 errors in 21 games do not convince you, then I do not know what will.

Deuce

voodoochile
05-18-2004, 09:30 PM
Originally posted by ma_deuce
If 10 errors in 21 games do not convince you, then I do not know what will.

Deuce

I just want to hold off until we have a larger sample size. He clearly has been settling down, IMO recently.

Besides, does his "inferior defense" outweigh his offensive productivity is still the key question...

How many unearned runs have been scored this year due to a Jose error?

How many of those have directly cost the Sox a game?

FarWestChicago
05-18-2004, 09:31 PM
Originally posted by maurice
When it comes to irrational fandom, the FriendsOfPornStache and the FriendsOfGiDPauly are on par with the FOC.First of all, it's BOM's, Backers of Manos. You would remember that if you were a card carrying FOB (were you?). Second of all, BOM's never made crazed claims about the abilities of Manos. We just said he was better than Buddy Lee.

:buddylee

I hate BOM's!!

jeremyb1
05-18-2004, 09:35 PM
Originally posted by ma_deuce
If 10 errors in 21 games do not convince you, then I do not know what will.

Deuce

50 errors in 120 games. What you're doing is the equivalent of saying "if he didn't have a hit in 10 at bats, what do you need to convince you."

iwannago
05-18-2004, 11:32 PM
I think his gains at the plate are totally lost by his losses in the field. Jose reminds me of Lee Richards.

MeanFish
05-19-2004, 01:12 AM
I think what's really going to happen in the end is going to be a deal of CLee for Garcia.

SSN721
05-19-2004, 07:39 AM
I do agree that when Manos is hot its hard to deny his contibutions to the team, but I find his defense disturbing. I liked him a lot more last year, he really seemed to improve his defense immensely and this year it looks like he is falling back in his old ways. I hope he settles down since I know he will be starting most of the time so of course I want him to do well. I am just afraid that even though his errors havent cost us any games yet, I think they will if he keeps playing defense as poorly as he has been. Hopefully by then his hitting will be making up for it. But I know we have to keep him because I dont see anyone desperate to pick him up. I also think there is potential for CLee for Garcia, which I hope for if we can sign Garcia for a few years.

hold2dibber
05-19-2004, 09:26 AM
Originally posted by MeanFish
I think what's really going to happen in the end is going to be a deal of CLee for Garcia.

That makes no sense. Why would the Sox trade a reasonably productive outfielder with several years left on his contract for a 1/2 year of a pitcher in the last year of his contract - particularly in light of the fact that the Sox only other productive outfielder (Maggs) is gone at the end of the year, too? If the Sox were to do this deal, their starting outfield going into next year would be Rowand, Timo and Reed. And they'd have nothing to show for trading CLee. Plus, Seattle already has outfielders-a-plenty; I can't see them even wanting Lee unless they could unload Winn or Ibanez.

Frater Perdurabo
05-19-2004, 09:36 AM
How about playing Frank at 1B during road games and letting Valentin get some time at DH against right-handed pitchers? As a DH, Valentin cannot commit errors.

wdelaney72
05-19-2004, 09:36 AM
Originally posted by misty60481
If we get rid of Jose what are we going to do for a left-handed bat we are almost all right handed now, I personally like Jose if he gets on one fo his hot streaks he can carry team for awile---KEEP HIM

Left Handed Bat - OVER-RATED.

Jose is a DH at best. We have Frank already filling that role. Bye Bye Jose.

iwannago
05-19-2004, 02:21 PM
Originally posted by wdelaney72
Left Handed Bat - OVER-RATED.

Jose is a DH at best. We have Frank already filling that role. Bye Bye Jose.

I agree Hose is history after this year.

maurice
05-19-2004, 03:45 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
Why on earth would you evaluate the situation irrespective of sample size?! . . . Accuse posters that disagree with you of irrational fandom instead of actually responding to their reasoned, specific arguments.[/COLOR]

LMAO! Um, maybe 'cause turnabout is fair play?

You post a thread premised on the notion that a sample size of 31 ABs (!) is significant, falsely claim that an utterly unsupported argument that Valentin is "improved" is "reasoned [and] specific," and get pissy when somebody makes an observation based on 181.2 innings of play. *****!

:whiner:

ma_deuce
05-19-2004, 04:47 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
50 errors in 120 games.

Careful what you wish for...

jeremyb1
05-19-2004, 05:02 PM
Originally posted by maurice
LMAO! Um, maybe 'cause turnabout is fair play?

You post a thread premised on the notion that a sample size of 31 ABs (!) is significant, falsely claim that an utterly unsupported argument that Valentin is "improved" is "reasoned [and] specific," and get pissy when somebody makes an observation based on 181.2 innings of play. *****!

:whiner:

Yeah I wrote a thread premised on the notion that 31 ABs are significant which is why I wrote "aveats apply regarding sample size" in the first post, right? Do you think maybe you want to read my posts before you attack me?

My comments about reasoned and specific arguments were about Jose's defense not about his hitting against lefties. If you're suggesting anything else you're unfairly taking me horribly out of context. 31 at bats is a small sample size as I've stated and doesn't mean a great deal. However, 31 ABs compared to zero previous comparable evidence holds some weight. The 31 at bats are at least interesting because we have no other means of evaluating whether or not Jose can hit lefties batting lefthanded. The issue of how many errors he can make is the exact opposite. I'm using 31 at bats to argue possibly Jose bats better lefthanded against lefties since we have nothing else to go by. You on the other hand are imploring people to focus almost entirely on 181.2 innings of play and to in the process completely disregard 8,543 innings!!!! I think 31 out of a possible 31 at bats of relevant data is far more important than 181.2 out of 8,724.2 of relevant data.

I'm making judgments on a small sample size because there is no other means of examining the concept I'm trying to look at and I have warned that I am doing so from the getgo. What is your excuse?

FarWestChicago
05-19-2004, 05:08 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
What is your excuse? His excuse? Perhaps:

:thechoice

voodoochile
05-19-2004, 05:13 PM
Originally posted by FarWestChicago
His excuse? Perhaps:

:thechoice

LOL! I remember when you made that the banner in the clubhouse for a couple of days (hours?)

Man, people were seriously losing it...

FarWestChicago
05-19-2004, 05:22 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
LOL! I remember when you made that the banner in the clubhouse for a couple of days (hours?)

Man, people were seriously losing it... LOL, that was hysterical. Some people got really angry...which goes back to my inverse relation between the obsession and sense of humor thing. :cool:

LauraJ14
05-19-2004, 06:07 PM
So the question to all of you trade Jose backers,
Uribe plays SS and Willie plays 2B everyday, who is the backup infielder for them since neither of them has played a full major league season?
We have nothing in the farm system except Kelly Dransfeldt and that worked so well earlier this year.

maurice
05-19-2004, 06:19 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
Do you think maybe you want to read my posts before you attack me?

LMAO! You might want to consider reading your own posts, as well as the title you selected for this thread: "The Improved Jose Valentin." This idea is completely unsupported, even considering the 31 ABs you hung your hat on.

Don't get too upset with me just because I exploited this absence of proof to entirely obliterate your thesis. For someone who so regularly criticizes the lack of logic in the posts of others, you ought to have a bit thicker skin when it comes to criticism of your own faulty logic.

31 at bats is a small sample size as I've stated and doesn't mean a great deal.

Yet you decided to base an entire thread on it. Nice work!

You on the other hand are imploring people to focus almost entirely on 181.2 innings of play and to in the process completely disregard 8,543 innings!

On the contrary, I'm focusing entirely on the 181.2 innings he played this season because he hasn't played any other innings this season, and the topic of this thread is whether he has improved this season.

As you've conceded, there's no reliable evidence suggesting that his offense against lefties has improved. Even the "evidence" you cite (.226/.314/.323) shows that he still sucks. Meanwhile, all of the available evidence suggests that his D has gone to hell in a handbasket since Alomar left.

As the proponent of the 31 AB thread, you're hardly in a position to argue that a sample size of 181.2 innings is too small. Normally, I wouldn't touch such a small sample with a ten foot pole but made an exception given the topic of this thread, as I acknowledged in post 12.

Pot . . . kettle . . . black.

I'm making judgments on a small sample size because there is no other means of examining the concept I'm trying to look at

Correction: there curently are NO means of examining the concept you're trying to look at. Push your ridiculous indignation aside and wait for a meaningful sample. Hopefully, it will be generated on another team.

ChiWhiteSox1337
05-19-2004, 06:20 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
LOL! I remember when you made that the banner in the clubhouse for a couple of days (hours?)

Man, people were seriously losing it...
Was it some sort of April fools prank? I wasn't here at the time!

maurice
05-19-2004, 06:27 PM
Do you really think it would be hard for KW to trade for a backup middle IF (preferably one who bats RH)?

voodoochile
05-19-2004, 06:56 PM
Originally posted by ChiWhiteSox1337
Was it some sort of April fools prank? I wasn't here at the time!

No, it was because of the strong arguments that were being generated by the Valentin Vs. Clayton camps.

PaleHoseGeorge
05-19-2004, 08:04 PM
The Donruss "Gods of the Game" baseball card was my favorite. :smile:

http://whitesoxinteractive.com/Graphics/RoyceChoice/jesusroyce.jpg

Back then the WSI community wasn't even one-third as big as it is now, but we still managed some 200+ post threads. It was intense. The Friends of Crash can only dream about putting up a fight like the Friends of Buddy Lee.

:buddylee
"The Sox lose, I went 0 for 4, but I'm still cocky because I handled 3 groundballs and stuffed a fourth one in my pocket."

FarWestChicago
05-19-2004, 08:22 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
The Donruss "Gods of the Game" baseball card was my favorite. :smile: tp://whitesoxinteractive.com/Graphics/RoyceChoice/jesusroyce.jpg[/IMG]

Back then the WSI community wasn't even one-third as big as it is now, but we still managed some 200+ post threads. It was intense. The Friends of Crash can only dream about putting up a fight like the Friends of Buddy Lee.

:buddylee
"The Sox lose, I went 0 for 4, but I'm still cocky because I handled 3 groundballs and stuffed a fourth one in my pocket." I gotta go with the HOF plaque. The words on the plaque are priceless!!

http://whitesoxinteractive.com/Graphics/RoyceChoice/hofr2.jpg

:buddylee

PHG is right, nobody could brawl like my boys!!

Daver
05-19-2004, 08:27 PM
I think the Nickname Buddy Lee may have been my best invention here.


:)

jeremyb1
05-19-2004, 10:59 PM
Originally posted by maurice
LMAO! You might want to consider reading your own posts, as well as the title you selected for this thread: "The Improved Jose Valentin."

I had intended to put a question mark at the end of the thread but I guess I forgot or it was a typo or something. Regardless I think it's pretty ridiculous so suggest my credibility rests on the title of the thread and not my words within the thread. People name threads different things all the time, sometimes to entice more people to read the thread.

Originally posted by maurice
This idea is completely unsupported, even considering the 31 ABs you hung your hat on.

That makes no sense whatsoever. The notion behind the thread was that perhaps Jose will now hit lefties better. If we were to hypothetically assume 31 at bats has a high degree of relevance, the fact that his performance against lefties is better than in the past would indicate that - guess what - he's improved against lefties. This isn't rocket science. The issue is the 31 at bats and I've awknowledged all along that they should be taken with an incredibly small grain of salt.

Originally posted by maurice
Don't get too upset with me just because I exploited this absence of proof to entirely obliterate your thesis. For someone who so regularly criticizes the lack of logic in the posts of others, you ought to have a bit thicker skin when it comes to criticism of your own faulty logic.

I'm honestly not upset. You haven't "obliterated" my thesis though. You've obliterated an argument I never made taken completely out of context. Good job.

Originally posted by maurice
Yet you decided to base an entire thread on it. Nice work!

I brought it up as an interesting conversation piece, not some profound realization. Most of the threads on this board aren't exactly ground breaking. This is entertainment, a way to have fun talking baseball and kill some time. I don't think pondering whether or not Jose has and will continue to hit better against lefties is a complete waste of time. If you do, guess what? Ignore the thread next time.

Originally posted by maurice
On the contrary, I'm focusing entirely on the 181.2 innings he played this season because he hasn't played any other innings this season, and the topic of this thread is whether he has improved this season.

Well the purpose of the thread was more of a hypothetical, "could it turn out" or "is it possible" that Jose has modified his game in a manner that increases his value. Again, a small number of at bats this season have a small amount of relevance to measure two different variables 1) Jose batting righthanded vs. lefties compared to 2) Jose batting lefthanded vs. lefties. Since as far as I know Jose has not made any drastic alterations to his fielding style, there's no reason to believe his fielding should be drastically different. Batting lefthanded vs. batting righthanded are two variables which one would expect to yield different outcomes. How is the same true of Jose Valentin fielding this season compared to Jose Valentin fielding last season and the last 10 seasons for that matter? I guess you could argue he's declining physically but if that were the case you'd expect something like lost range due to less quickness not mental mistakes leading to errors. There's no reason to expect Jose is suddenly a drastically different fielder.

Originally posted by maurice
As you've conceded, there's no reliable evidence suggesting that his offense against lefties has improved. Even the "evidence" you cite (.226/.314/.323) shows that he still sucks.

Those aren't great numbers but they are drastically improved numbers from Jose's past numbers against lefties. Improved doesn't mean good it means better than before. I readily admit those stats aren't very good but hey, they're not really far off what Robbie Alomar hit for us last season and people thought we would be in bad shape without his production during the offseason. Those stats aren't terrible for a SS.

Originally posted by maurice
Meanwhile, all of the available evidence suggests that his D has gone to hell in a handbasket since Alomar left.

Alomar was around for half the season. I think it's ridiculous to suggest he was entirely responsible for Jose's success. Have you been watching the games lately? How would losing your grip on grounders or making bad throws be related to your 2B unless it was a play directly up the middle that the 2B might have snared?

Originally posted by maurice
As the proponent of the 31 AB thread, you're hardly in a position to argue that a sample size of 181.2 innings is too small. Normally, I wouldn't touch such a small sample with a ten foot pole but made an exception given the topic of this thread, as I acknowledged in post 12.

Pot . . . kettle . . . black.

Ok but I posted in pretty extreme detail why I don't think the two situations are similar in the last thread. First of all I feel that my statements were along the lines of "This is a reall small sample size but is it possible Jose will continue to hit like this?" Wheras yours were formulated more along the lines of "this is a small sample size but it definitively demonstrated how Jose will perform this season". My exact wording in the first post is "Jose may have become even more valuable" leaving it as an open ended question.

Secondly, the point is that there is only one way to statistically analyze if it is possible Jose will hit better against lefties, his 31 at bats lefthanded vs. lefties. There's no other way to attempt to gauge it. Therefore, I don't feel just looking at the numbers if using appropriate discretion with the sample size as I feel I've done is acceptable. If you want to judge Jose's fielding you have thousands of innings to go by, making this a drastically different situation. Choosing to examine only a small portion of those innings is irresponsible unless there is strong reason to believe a trend exists or certain factors at play are completely different.

Originally posted by maurice
Correction: there curently are NO means of examining the concept you're trying to look at. Push your ridiculous indignation aside and wait for a meaningful sample.

Not true. You can absolutely examine it. You may not have any concrete results but that doesn't keep you from looking at it. That was the entire point of the thread in my mind. To take a primitive, inconclusive look at it and to have fun speculating based on that. You instead seemed to want to take less than the best means of examining a factor and view it very concretely.

maurice
05-20-2004, 04:19 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
The notion behind the thread was that perhaps Jose will now hit lefties better. . . . You haven't "obliterated" my thesis though.

This is only true to the extent that you don't have a thesis. Perhaps he hits better; perhaps he doesn't. There's no evidence either way. End of meaningless thread.

Batting lefthanded vs. batting righthanded are two variables which one would expect to yield different outcomes. How is the same true of Jose Valentin fielding this season compared to Jose Valentin fielding last season and the last 10 seasons for that matter? I guess you could argue he's declining physically.

In addition to that, there's the point about Alomar. You may think that it's irrellevant, but others here disagree, including those who have been "watching the games."

I posted in pretty extreme detail why I don't think the two situations are similar in the last thread.

Any point you reference (but don't quote or link) from any other thread really has no bearing on anything I post, particularly since I probably never read that unspecific post. The volume on this board is really high, and I have more important things to do. Sorry.

yours were formulated more along the lines of "this is a small sample size but it definitively demonstrated how Jose will perform this season".

Wow, I'd love to see that quote. Why not post it instead of making up your own quote to mischaracterize it?

there is only one way to statistically analyze if it is possible Jose will hit better against lefties, his 31 at bats lefthanded vs. lefties. There's no other way to attempt to gauge it.

Correction: There currently is NO way to statistically analyze if it is possible Jose will hit better against lefties since he stopped switch-hitting. You just have to wait and see. "Looking" at the numbers is fine, but it is impossible to "statistically analyze" them. Stat heads have an undeservedly bad rep around here, but repeated misstatements like yours really do them a diservice.

I must say, Jeremy, you certainly lead the league in really really long replies to relatively short posts. There's no way I can respond to everything, so you'll have to excuse me if I missed something vital.

My main point remains . . . people post speculative threads based on specious evidence here all the time. You're usually the first one in line with a 100-word post letting them know that their point remains unproven. This thread essentially is the inverse of that.

jeremyb1
05-20-2004, 07:15 PM
Originally posted by maurice
This is only true to the extent that you don't have a thesis. Perhaps he hits better; perhaps he doesn't. There's no evidence either way. End of meaningless thread.

I don't think banter and speculation are meaningless if it is interesting to people on any level. You could argue that any speculation about the future is meaningless unless you have a concrete idea what will happen but some times it is fun. That's why we discuss issues such as what will happen during the upcoming offseason even when no one knows what will happen. It can be fun.

Originally posted by maurice
In addition to that, there's the point about Alomar. You may think that it's irrellevant, but others here disagree, including those who have been "watching the games."

"Watching the games" is not a reason for anything in and of itself. It can offer increased support for certain points but little else. You can't simply assert you've watched the game and make ridiculous assumptions based only on that. What observations indicate that Jose would make fewer mental mistakes on plays that don't involve the second basemen in Alomar's absence?

Originally posted by maurice
Any point you reference (but don't quote or link) from any other thread really has no bearing on anything I post, particularly since I probably never read that unspecific post. The volume on this board is really high, and I have more important things to do. Sorry.

Well I'm citing a specific post (my most recent one prior to my previous post) that was completely directed towards one of your posts. If you're unwilling to read my responses to your posts I don't understand the point of debating any issue.


Originally posted by maurice
Wow, I'd love to see that quote. Why not post it instead of making up your own quote to mischaracterize it?

That's how I personally interpreted it. Maybe I'm wrong but I don't have any other refernce. That was my personal interpretation. I maintain that I placed greater emphasis on the lack of certainty created by the statistics I posted. If I misunderstood your tone or if it came out differently than you intended that's fine but personally I perceived less certainty in my post than yours especially in later clarifications of the posts. If I completely misunderstood you I apologize.

Originally posted by maurice
Correction: There currently is NO way to statistically analyze if it is possible Jose will hit better against lefties since he stopped switch-hitting. You just have to wait and see.

I never claimed to be examining how Jose will hit lefties in the future. I only claimed to be examining how he'd hit them in an admittedly terribly small sample size and opening the floor for speculation based on that.

Originally posted by maurice
"Looking" at the numbers is fine, but it is impossible to "statistically analyze" them. Stat heads have an undeservedly bad rep around here, but repeated misstatements like yours really do them a diservice.

You can absolutely statitically analyze how Jose has hit against lefties thus far. That was the point of this thread. I never asserted that it was a statistically significant analysis or that it shed a great deal of light into the future only that it was intersting food for though.

Originally posted by maurice
My main point remains . . . people post speculative threads based on specious evidence here all the time. You're usually the first one in line with a 100-word post letting them know that their point remains unproven. This thread essentially is the inverse of that.

I think the phrasing is completely different. I used special care to pose the question as "may Jose have improved his ability to hit lefties" and not "Jose is now a great hitter against lefties". I don't see any comparison whatsoever between my posts in these threads and posts asserting Jon Adkins is a great pitcher based solely on 15 innings or anything else along those lines.

maurice
05-20-2004, 07:31 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
"Watching the games" is not a reason for anything in and of itself.

I agree. I was quoting you. Alomar's effect on Valentin's D has been addressed at length in other threads by posters other than me.

Well I'm citing a specific post (my most recent one prior to my previous post) that was completely directed towards one of your posts.

No, you cited some post "in the last thread."

If I completely misunderstood you I apologize.

No problem, but the words in my previous posts speak for themselves. I doubt that anything came out differently than I intended. If you have a problem with something I said, quote it directly; don't bastardize it.

I think the phrasing is completely different.

That's how I personally interpreted it. I don't have any other reference. That was my personal interpretation. If I misunderstood your tone or if it came out differently than you intended that's fine.

jeremyb1
05-20-2004, 07:51 PM
Originally posted by maurice
I agree. I was quoting you. Alomar's effect on Valentin's D has been addressed at length in other threads by posters other than me.

Alright. If you can link those posts I'd love to see how posters on this board attribute Jose's errors to Alomar. They seem quite seperate factors to me.

Originally posted by maurice
No, you cited some post "in the last thread."

If so I mispoke and I'm sorry. I was referring to the last post in this thread (at that time).

Originally posted by maurice
No problem, but the words in my previous posts speak for themselves. I doubt that anything came out differently than I intended. If you have a problem with something I said, quote it directly; don't bastardize it.

I never intended to suggest my remarks were quoting your posts, only that they were my personal interpretation of your statements.

Originally posted by maurice
That's how I personally interpreted it. I don't have any other reference. That was my personal interpretation. If I misunderstood your tone or if it came out differently than you intended that's fine.

Fine. Works for me. In the future take note of words such as "may" which strongly represent a lack of certainty. That's not only in my posts but in the posts of others on these boards that I critisize for small sample sizes.