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View Full Version : Sox tidbits from Gammons column on ESPN


Win1ForMe
05-18-2004, 04:34 PM
The Twins went into Chicago and won the first two games of their weekend series before being shut out by Mark Buehrle, which didn't sit well with White Sox GM Ken Williams. "I'm open for business," says Williams. "If things don't work, I'll be willing to make some major changes."

Last year, Williams went out and got Carl Everett and Roberto Alomar early in the trading season, and already he is trying to get another starting pitcher and see if he can work a deal where he trades a right-handed bat for a left-handed hitter.

"We're a little unbalanced," says Williams. However, one person he is not looking to replace is closer Billy Koch, heart attacks or no heart attacks. "I am very happy with Billy, and believe he will have a big season," says Williams. "He's getting used to what he has. He's not going to throw 98 or 99 (mph) anymore, but he's 94, he uses it, and he's starting to get confidence in his curveball, which he never needed before. He will be the least of our problems."

LINK (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/gammons/story?id=1803754)

JRIG
05-18-2004, 04:42 PM
Originally posted by Win1ForMe
However, one person he is not looking to replace is closer Billy Koch, heart attacks or no heart attacks. "I am very happy with Billy, and believe he will have a big season," says Williams. "He will be the least of our problems."

I love this quote. I think it's going in my signature. How long until KW has to eat his words on Koch?

Hangar18
05-18-2004, 04:43 PM
If KW believes in Koch, that will the downfall of the 2004 season.
Koch helped become the downfall of 2003. How did that happen? All because we wanted to save some Money and cut
corners by trading one closer for another. Were Paying DEARLY for it now .............................. :angry:

SoxxoS
05-18-2004, 04:46 PM
Koch really isn't a problem right now...

Matter of fact...we haven't seen him in like 10 days.

soxtalker
05-18-2004, 04:48 PM
Well, it doesn't necessarily mean that he won't move Koch -- just that he isn't looking to move him. It says that KW considers that Koch is worth a lot. (I'm probably just grasping at straws. I'd like to see us trade Koch and use Takatsu in the closer role.)

Baby Fisk
05-18-2004, 04:49 PM
Originally posted by JRIG
I love this quote. I think it's going in my signature. How long until KW has to eat his words on Koch?
Agreed. I'm sitting here dumbfounded reading and re-reading that. I'm so stunned by this BS I don't know how to react. Koch may be the least of our problems in Kenny's universe, but Koch is also the least of our solutions.

pudge
05-18-2004, 06:18 PM
Originally posted by Baby Fisk
Agreed. I'm sitting here dumbfounded reading and re-reading that. I'm so stunned by this BS I don't know how to react. Koch may be the least of our problems in Kenny's universe, but Koch is also the least of our solutions.

Maybe it's KW using the media to pump up Koch's trade value... at least one can hope.

jabrch
05-18-2004, 06:25 PM
Koch - Saves in 5 of his last 7 outings. No BS or losses since April 14. Opponents hitting .209 against him.

I don't really care to scapegoat Koch anymore. He doesn't deserve it.

Cubbiesuck13
05-18-2004, 06:26 PM
i am really upset about the bullpen too! i was just thinking about how we can improve it. wait..... never mind...... i was thinking about the starting pitching, maybe a 3rd starter or so.

i love our bullpen and i love the way that we have looked strong through most games. if kw gets a reliefer then i would really doubt if he is watching the games, just like i am wondering with the people doubting the 'pen right now. at least let them go through a bad stretch before saying that they suck.

JRIG
05-18-2004, 06:31 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
Koch - Saves in 5 of his last 7 outings. No BS or losses since April 14. Opponents hitting .209 against him.

I don't really care to scapegoat Koch anymore. He doesn't deserve it.

Doesn't deserve it? He's allowed 11 baserunners in his last 5 innings pitched. The gun is loaded, he's just lucky the trigger hasn't been pulled.

OEO Magglio
05-18-2004, 06:34 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
I don't really care to scapegoat Koch anymore. He doesn't deserve it. [/B]
Thank You.

MRKARNO
05-18-2004, 06:47 PM
I have a few ideas to solify our bullpen and neither of them require a major acquisition. There is one problem in our bullpen right now at this point: CLiff Politte. I know he throws like 95-97 MPH, but that fastball is very hittable because it's very straight. Shingo's 87 MPH Fastball is a lot harder to hit because of the sink. I think that we need to trade him. We could get another reliever in return or we could get some prospects.
We also have a two former ML relievers in AAA that could help us in Jose Santiago (1.19 ERA 22 IP 14 K 2 BB) and Courtney Duncan (2.65 ERA 17 IP 14 K 6 BB).

gosox41
05-18-2004, 06:47 PM
Originally posted by Win1ForMe
LINK (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/gammons/story?id=1803754)

WIth KW's feelings on Koch, do we need anymore proof of how lousy KW really is?



Bob

jabrch
05-18-2004, 06:48 PM
Originally posted by JRIG
Doesn't deserve it? He's allowed 11 baserunners in his last 5 innings pitched. The gun is loaded, he's just lucky the trigger hasn't been pulled.

Just look at the results JRig. You are bitching about his last 5IP, In those 5 innings, also 5 appearances, he has 4 saves. The only reason he doesn't have 5 is that the 5th wasn't a save opp. Sure he flirts with danger, but with all the other issues (5th starter, CF, leadoff hitter, leftys, etc.) that this team has, how do you worry about Billy Koch given his results?

jabrch
05-18-2004, 06:48 PM
Originally posted by gosox41
WIth KW's feelings on Koch, do we need anymore proof of how lousy KW really is?



Bob

It doesn't sound like you need ANY proof to think KW is lousy.

gosox41
05-18-2004, 06:52 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
It doesn't sound like you need ANY proof to think KW is lousy.


Well there is one way for KW to make me eat my words...winning the division. And I don't mean winning the division in 5 or 10 years. We know he could cost us a chance, let's see if he can create a legit chance.

For KW , this is a good start and we can look to build from there.




Bob

JRIG
05-18-2004, 06:56 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
Just look at the results JRig. You are bitching about his last 5IP, In those 5 innings, also 5 appearances, he has 4 saves. The only reason he doesn't have 5 is that the 5th wasn't a save opp. Sure he flirts with danger, but with all the other issues (5th starter, CF, leadoff hitter, leftys, etc.) that this team has, how do you worry about Billy Koch given his results?

This is the exact line of thinking that led us to acquire Koch in the first place. "Sure he lives on the edge, but look at the save totals!" I'm sorry, but I'd prefer a guy that doesn't put two guys on base every time he enters a game.

I'd say his results are subpar. You act as if the only job description Koch has is to get three out before he allows threee runs. Has he gotten saves? Yes, I can't argue that fact. But by allowing baserunners and setting himself up for trouble, he's still acting like the same pitcher from last year. He doesn't just flirt with danger -- he's got his tongue down her throat and his hands up her skirt.

the_valenstache
05-18-2004, 07:08 PM
Line Kenny up for one of those "I Love Billy Koch" tattoos.

Placement of said tattoo shall be left to your imagination.

jabrch
05-18-2004, 07:09 PM
Originally posted by gosox41
Well there is one way for KW to make me eat my words...winning the division. And I don't mean winning the division in 5 or 10 years. We know he could cost us a chance, let's see if he can create a legit chance.

For KW , this is a good start and we can look to build from there.




Bob

Because the GM is fully responsible for winning and losing, despite what the star players who make all the money do or do not do on the field?

KW put a team in place that should be competitive to win the division. He is still working at improving that team within the constraints the owner put on him.

Baring extraordinary hindsight, I don't think Williams could have done much more than he did. He made a few mistakes, but almost no GM hasn't made a few mistakes. I guess I just don't understand why everyone points fingers at KW so much. It doesn't seem like it is his fault, as much as it is the fault of the players that aren't performing up to the expectations that are on them.

Is it KWs fault Frank is hitting .243? (Frankers will tell us he has a great OBP, but OBP doesn't drive in runs. My #4 hitter should be driving in runs) He is .188 with RISP and .133 with RISP and 2 out.

Is it KWs fault that Carlos is hitting .260, and even worse .152 with RISP and .053 with RISP and 2 out?

I'd blame Frank and Carlos right now - they are the ones that aren't getting it done when it counts.

You want to blame PK - fine, but notice that he is hitting .353 RISP and .313 RISP and 2 out. I don't think those stats are all that bad - do you?

You want to blame KW? Fine - go ahead. If frank and Carlos were hitting thier respective weights (275 and 240) with RISP, that would be a significant improvement than what they currently hit (below Timo's weight) and then we wouldn't be blaming KW.

johnny_mostil
05-18-2004, 07:11 PM
Originally posted by pudge
Maybe it's KW using the media to pump up Koch's trade value... at least one can hope.

What is KW going to say? Give me a break. Nobody worth a simoleon rips their employees in the media, for attribution or not. Privately you know if he could swap Koch for six towels and a jockstrap you know he'd do it. He's stuck with him for the rest of the year.

johnny_mostil
05-18-2004, 07:13 PM
Originally posted by jabrch

I'd blame Frank and Carlos right now - they are the ones that aren't getting it done when it counts.


Overall the Sox aren't generating enough baserunners. Their overall rate of driving in runs is down but it's not horrible. The problem is all the 4- and 5-hit games for the whole team. No team in baseball capitalizes more than 30-some percent of the time.

ChiSox7
05-18-2004, 07:13 PM
Koch has been great. We haven't lost a game he has come in to close. Holds oppoents to a .206 average. WE DONT NEED PITCHERS.

We need offense.

jabrch
05-18-2004, 07:14 PM
Originally posted by JRIG
This is the exact line of thinking that led us to acquire Koch in the first place. "Sure he lives on the edge, but look at the save totals!" I'm sorry, but I'd prefer a guy that doesn't put two guys on base every time he enters a game.

I'd say his results are subpar. You act as if the only job description Koch has is to get three out before he allows threee runs. Has he gotten saves? Yes, I can't argue that fact. But by allowing baserunners and setting himself up for trouble, he's still acting like the same pitcher from last year. He doesn't just flirt with danger -- he's got his tongue down her throat and his hands up her skirt.

But is he the reason we are three games out? No - Not at all. He cost us 1 game, right? Or was it 2? And who is to say that any other closer wouldn't have cost us 1 or 2 games?

jabrch
05-18-2004, 07:16 PM
Originally posted by johnny_mostil
Overall the Sox aren't generating enough baserunners. Their overall rate of driving in runs is down but it's not horrible. The problem is all the 4- and 5-hit games for the whole team. No team in baseball capitalizes more than 30-some percent of the time.

That's crap - look at Frank and Carlos with RISP and RISP+2 out. They have had plenty of chances. They haven't delivered.

gosox41
05-19-2004, 09:57 AM
Originally posted by jabrch
Because the GM is fully responsible for winning and losing, despite what the star players who make all the money do or do not do on the field?

KW put a team in place that should be competitive to win the division. He is still working at improving that team within the constraints the owner put on him.

Baring extraordinary hindsight, I don't think Williams could have done much more than he did. He made a few mistakes, but almost no GM hasn't made a few mistakes. I guess I just don't understand why everyone points fingers at KW so much. It doesn't seem like it is his fault, as much as it is the fault of the players that aren't performing up to the expectations that are on them.

Is it KWs fault Frank is hitting .243? (Frankers will tell us he has a great OBP, but OBP doesn't drive in runs. My #4 hitter should be driving in runs) He is .188 with RISP and .133 with RISP and 2 out.

Is it KWs fault that Carlos is hitting .260, and even worse .152 with RISP and .053 with RISP and 2 out?

I'd blame Frank and Carlos right now - they are the ones that aren't getting it done when it counts.

You want to blame PK - fine, but notice that he is hitting .353 RISP and .313 RISP and 2 out. I don't think those stats are all that bad - do you?

You want to blame KW? Fine - go ahead. If frank and Carlos were hitting thier respective weights (275 and 240) with RISP, that would be a significant improvement than what they currently hit (below Timo's weight) and then we wouldn't be blaming KW.

Some of it is KW's fault..no make that a lot. The FOulke trade single handedly cost the Sox last year. It seems his mistakes are always huge, he can't screw up a trade of a reliever for a minor league player, but he sure can screw up big impact trades.

It's not KW's fault Frank is hitting .243. But Frank will hit, and at least he's takign his walks. He's second in the league in OBP. That tells me he's seeing the ball pretty well (though not as of late) isn't chasing too many bad pitches and that pitchers still fear him. I'll take a player with a .460 OBP any day of the week, I don't care what his average is.

As for Carlos, I don't know how much you read or mremeber my posts. But I was one of the people calling for a shake up of this team. Heck, even KW wanted a team of grinders. I've been adovocating breaking up the four slow right handed hitters for a while and have long realized that I don't want to give up Magglio or Frank. PK I would give up but he is untradeable. That leaves Carlos, a guy that can be traded for a good starting pitcher (we need at least one) as well as break up that string of one dimensional players.

KW has been watching the same team that I have since 2001. The extended slumps by these guys, and the fact that he even admitted a need for "grinders" Why not addreses the issue? So I do blame it on him.

Sure he's made good moves, but we still haven't made the playoffs under teams he's put together. Remember, the Sox play in a very weak division the last few years. We're not in the AL East. And the Sox still spend the most or ae really close to the top in payroll in our division.

So what's KW's excuse? JR's financial constraints ? The Twins have very similar contraints. Most picked the demise of the Twins, but please go back and read my old posts from pre-season talking about how good Nathan and Mauer are and how losing a guy like Milton who made like 6 starts for the '03 Twins wasn't going to impact a 90 win team.

KW has had holes on this team since he first arrived. Outside of catching (and the jury is still out on Olivo) what else has he addressed? Where's our everyday CFer? Where are the grinders? Where's the fifth starter that we never seem to have?


Bob

BigFrankFan
05-19-2004, 11:22 AM
I too think you should lay off Koch. Other closers allow runners on just as often as Koch does & they don't get any flack for it. He's not a great closer but he is getting the job done.

A closer has but one job: close out the game.
That means his greatest asset is to secure the win. He needs the mental fortitude to be able to do that even when he doesn't have the best stuff. Koch is learning how to do that better than ever this year.

He used to be completely dependant on his velocity & ability to hit corners. Now as KW as said he is starting to throw some filthier stuff.
Considering his health over the past few seasons & the fact that he is effective despite losing velocity I would say stick with him.

RafaelC
05-19-2004, 07:03 PM
And what about Konerko??? Man, Konerko is loved around here, isnt he?

2 years in a row that he sucks!

A. Cavatica
05-19-2004, 09:28 PM
Originally posted by pudge
Maybe it's KW using the media to pump up Koch's trade value... at least one can hope.

Bingo. You never tell the world you want to move someone, only that you want to acquire someone.