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View Full Version : Who thinks Maggs is worth 14 million?


SoxxoS
05-18-2004, 12:26 AM
Seeing that some people (including myself) are of the opinion that Maggs isn't worth 14 million, and some people are...let's get the official tally:

SoxxoS
05-18-2004, 12:27 AM
I am really leaning toward that fact of Maggs pads his stats in blowout games...

OEO Magglio
05-18-2004, 12:28 AM
I absolutely love Maggs, but he's not worth 14 mill.

ChiSox7
05-18-2004, 12:31 AM
Not anywhere near 14 million. NOt anywhere near the clutch player you would expect a 3-hitter to be.

Win1ForMe
05-18-2004, 12:34 AM
It's hard to say. I know I criticized him in the past for being inconsistent but that too is magnified especially when the ENTIRE team sucks like this. The highest paid player will always be looked at to carry the team.

Now, I'm not sure if Maggs is worth $14M, he might be. But I do know that he should not be paid $14M by the White Sox, not unless you want to stick it out with this same type of team for the next few years.

So from the White Sox POV, he's not worth it (I voted NO). For a different team with a higher payroll, he probably is.

StillMissOzzie
05-18-2004, 03:00 AM
Actually, he IS worth $14M, because that's what he's getting paid for THIS year. Granted, it's the final year of his previous contract where he averaged something like $9M/yr for the last 3 years.

But referring to the future and his reported contract demands, I will have to say NO - spend it elsewhere.

SMO

SSN721
05-18-2004, 07:46 AM
I have already stated a more thought out opinion on another thread, I voted no, but I still feel he is the cornerstone of this team, a huge part of it, I dont beleive he is what makes this team bad so I dont beleive keeping him will maintain the same level of play we have had for the past few years. He is a proven MLB commodity that I feel you need to build around, even if he will be a little overpaid, after losing PK, Koch and Valentin at the very least by next year I am will to overpay a couple mil to him for what he means to the team. Let the mocking begin I guess.

samram
05-18-2004, 08:20 AM
Vlad Guerrero is making $14M for the next five years. There is no way Maggs should get that this off-season. The $14M he is making this year was his speculated market value during the 2001 season, when salaries were more inflated than they are now. In the current market he is probably around $12M. If he dropped his price tag to $12M, the Sox would resign him in a heartbeat and they should.

illiniwhitesox
05-18-2004, 08:31 AM
I agree whole-heartedly with your thoughts.

One question I have is, if you had $14MM, what other free-agents would you go after? Be it any single player or a combination of two.

I love Mags, but look around the league and see better value to be had at this current price-tag.

samram
05-18-2004, 09:03 AM
Originally posted by illiniwhitesox
I agree whole-heartedly with your thoughts.

One question I have is, if you had $14MM, what other free-agents would you go after? Be it any single player or a combination of two.

I love Mags, but look around the league and see better value to be had at this current price-tag.

The key is getting potentially two players for that money, if not 3. Some names I saw were Danny Bautista, Freddy Garcia, Orlando Cabrera, Christian Guzman (team option), Eddie Guardado (mutual option, although I can't see him wanting to stay out there), and a few others. I think 2 or three of these guys could be signed for around $14M, or maybe a little more, although with Koch and Jose, and hopefully Frank and Carlos and/or CLee also gone, there will be a lot more money available. The thing is that the type of players Ozzie wants are not homerun hitters, who generally command the eight figure salaries. Guys like Shannon Stewart, Juan Pierre and Luis Castillo, who are Ozzie type guys, top out around $7 or $8, which leaves money for pitching.

Frater Perdurabo
05-18-2004, 09:06 AM
I hate to say it, but Maggs is not worth $14 million per year. I'd rather the money be spent to shore up other holes on this team (pitching!), especially given the hot young OFs rising through the Sox system.

Railsplitter
05-18-2004, 09:26 AM
The way Ordenez has been playing, the Magglio-Meter may be a bit generous.

BKozi
05-18-2004, 09:44 AM
I'll go against the grain and say that he is worth $14 million. He might not be on talent alone, but he is for other reasons. Every team needs a fan favorite and I think Maggs is that guy for the Sox. It's no secret that the fan base for the Sox is hurting. Additionally it's not a secret that a lot of guys don't want to sign with the Sox. Maggs is one of those guys who doesn't complain and goes out and does his job. You remove him and who does the Sox have left that the fans can cheer for? Talent-wise he's worth about $10 to $12 million but if he puts more fans in the seats, I say pay him the $14 million and show everybody that we take care of our own and want to win.

pearso66
05-18-2004, 11:38 AM
I think on a fan base, Frank is way more important. A lot of the younger crowd, 15-25? are fans because of this man. He should be the one the Sox keep around.

Maggs, if he insists on getting $14 mil, then let him go, I have no problems with that. And those who complain about a backloaded contract, who cares, he still gets the money. If the contract is incentive laden and if he meets them, and gets 14 mil, ok, but the base contract should not be any more than 12 mil.

jeremyb1
05-18-2004, 01:43 PM
Originally posted by illiniwhitesox
I agree whole-heartedly with your thoughts.

One question I have is, if you had $14MM, what other free-agents would you go after? Be it any single player or a combination of two.

I love Mags, but look around the league and see better value to be had at this current price-tag.

1) Carlos Beltran

2) Edgar Renteria

rahulsekhar
05-18-2004, 01:48 PM
IMO, Beltran @ $16m is a better signing than Maggs @ $14m. Despite what Rob Neyer thinks of him.

samram
05-18-2004, 01:51 PM
Originally posted by rahulsekhar
IMO, Beltran @ $16m is a better signing than Maggs @ $14m. Despite what Rob Neyer thinks of him.

He's the one free agent who is worth that type of money. Otherwise, spread it among two or three guys who bring things to the team like speed and defense, and of course, more pitching help.

JRIG
05-18-2004, 01:53 PM
Originally posted by ChiSox7
Not anywhere near 14 million. NOt anywhere near the clutch player you would expect a 3-hitter to be.

Mags this year:

Close and late: .300/.391/.450
Scoring position, 2 outs: .500/.611/.714
Scoring position: .425/.478/.750
Men on, 2 out: .333/.440/.476

Mags 2001-2003:
Close and late: .327/.409/.507
Scoring position, 2 outs: .282/.404/.473
Scoring position: .315/.410/.565
Men on, 2 out: .300/.396/.530
Man on 3rd, less than 2 out: .411/.433/.768
Bases Loaded: .421/.429/.842
Runners on: .317/.395/.567

Would you like him to do more in "clutch" situations?

jlh0023
05-18-2004, 02:09 PM
i have to admit ignorance on this topic.... i'm a huge ordonez fan, but don't know what the right move is here.

owensmouth
05-18-2004, 02:11 PM
Okay, so if Magglio, Koch, Valentin and Loaiza are gone next year will JR lower the ticket prices by one third?

jabrch
05-18-2004, 02:33 PM
Originally posted by owensmouth
Okay, so if Magglio, Koch, Valentin and Loaiza are gone next year will JR lower the ticket prices by one third?

Or will he spend the almost 30mm on 3 quality FAs?

wilburwood
05-18-2004, 02:36 PM
Maggs is a class act and would love to see him in a Sox uniform forever. That said it is all about winning right? Since we have a JR imposed budget my bucks would be spent on strength up the middle. Pitching, Center field, Short, maybe sign Olivo longterm before he is out of moneybags price range. Just my own personl thoughts....Right field doen't seem like a tough spot to fill ...IMO

ChiSox7
05-18-2004, 02:39 PM
Originally posted by JRIG
Mags this year:

Close and late: .300/.391/.450
Scoring position, 2 outs: .500/.611/.714
Scoring position: .425/.478/.750
Men on, 2 out: .333/.440/.476

Mags 2001-2003:
Close and late: .327/.409/.507
Scoring position, 2 outs: .282/.404/.473
Scoring position: .315/.410/.565
Men on, 2 out: .300/.396/.530
Man on 3rd, less than 2 out: .411/.433/.768
Bases Loaded: .421/.429/.842
Runners on: .317/.395/.567

Would you like him to do more in "clutch" situations?

Yes, I would. Stats are nice and all, but they don't always tell the whole story. Maggs has been like everybody else on this team and he turns "clutch" when the games are out of hand and we are 7 or 8 games back in the standings. Have you ever stopped to think why he has trouble in April and May, and then tears it up during the rest of the year? Here is my theory. By that time we are out of the race, so there is no pressure on him, so he can go out and put up MASSIVE numbers, which he has, that mask what he did in April and May when we REALLY needed him. Where was he during the first two games against Minny? Or in Toronto? He got a couple of hits with RISP on Sunday. THe only problem? We were already up 6 runs when he decided to 'come through'. Real clutch.

You have every right to disagree with me, but those stats mean absolutely nothing to me. It's easy to hit in "clutch" situations when there is no pressure on you and you are out of the race. We need Maggs to carry this team NOW.

If you don't agree, that's cool.

SoxBoy14
05-18-2004, 08:05 PM
I think 14 million is a ridiculous amount of money, but Maggs is da man and I would hate to see him in a cubs uniform.

Nick@Nite
05-18-2004, 08:12 PM
Yes... every penny... it's not my money... pay him.

BKozi
05-18-2004, 09:42 PM
Originally posted by ChiSox7
Yes, I would. Stats are nice and all, but they don't always tell the whole story. Maggs has been like everybody else on this team and he turns "clutch" when the games are out of hand and we are 7 or 8 games back in the standings. Have you ever stopped to think why he has trouble in April and May, and then tears it up during the rest of the year? Here is my theory. By that time we are out of the race, so there is no pressure on him, so he can go out and put up MASSIVE numbers, which he has, that mask what he did in April and May when we REALLY needed him. Where was he during the first two games against Minny? Or in Toronto? He got a couple of hits with RISP on Sunday. THe only problem? We were already up 6 runs when he decided to 'come through'. Real clutch.

You have every right to disagree with me, but those stats mean absolutely nothing to me. It's easy to hit in "clutch" situations when there is no pressure on you and you are out of the race. We need Maggs to carry this team NOW.

If you don't agree, that's cool.

I for one disagree with you. That's a nice theory and all but what are you basing this on? Do you have any numbers to support this?

batmanZoSo
05-18-2004, 10:23 PM
If you don't think Maggs is clutch, FYI he had one of if not the best batting average in the LIPS category, which many consider the ultimate "clutch hitting" measure.

LIPS are defined as innings after the seventh when the player's team is losing by three runs or less. This is a relatively new statistic and has been kept only for players who began playing in the past 30 years.

Over that period, the leader (400 or more at-bats) in LIPS batting is, not surprisingly, the great Tony Gwynn. In 1,392 such at-bats, Gwynn hit .358.

Kendall is second. In 589 at-bats, he's hitting .328. To prove this is no quirky statistic, Kendall is followed by such notable batsmen as Magglio Ordonez (.325), Edgar Martinez (.324) and Nomar Garciaparra (.320).



Ya happy?

Maggs stays.

ChiSox7
05-18-2004, 10:26 PM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo
If you don't think Maggs is clutch, FYI he had one of if not the best batting average in the LIPS category, which many consider the ultimate "clutch hitting" measure.



Ya happy?

Maggs stays.

If you read my post, I don't think its totally a matter of when in the game he does it. It's when in the year he does it. He pads his stats when we are WAY down in the standings, and chokes when the standings are close. I don't doubt your good intentions, but this is a fact of the last three years. I think that's why he struggles in April and May and lights it up when we are out of it late in the year.

And no, I'm still not happy. When I think of big games over the past three years, I don't have a lot of Maggs memories. I'm sorry.

But like I said. If you want to disagree thats cool too.

Whitesox029
05-18-2004, 10:30 PM
Originally posted by SoxxoS
I am really leaning toward that fact of Maggs pads his stats in blowout games...
Isn't that the objective for a player in a blowout game? There isn't much opportunity for being unselfish when you're up 10-0.

batmanZoSo
05-18-2004, 10:32 PM
Originally posted by ChiSox7
If you read my post, I don't think its totally a matter of when in the game he does it. It's when in the year he does it. He pads his stats when we are WAY down in the standings, and chokes when the standings are close. I don't doubt your good intentions, but this is a fact of the last three years. I think that's why he struggles in April and May and lights it up when we are out of it late in the year.

And no, I'm still not happy. When I think of big games over the past three years, I don't have a lot of Maggs memories. I'm sorry.

But like I said. If you want to disagree thats cool too.

He's got one of the biggest RBI totals in baseball so far and hasn't nearly hit stride yet. Considering his slow starting past he's done quite well. Through no fault of his are we in second.

samram
05-18-2004, 10:36 PM
To look at this another way, is Maggs worth $14M to this team? If the Sox consider themselves a mid-market team (rightly or wrongly), and they have a manager who wants to play small ball, can they spend more than 20% of their payroll on one right-handed slugger? I wouldn't be surprised if someone gave him $14M after this season, which would mean he is worth $14M in the market. However, the Sox may be better served getting two 6-7M dollar free agents who fit the Ozzie philosophy. Or maybe they will increase payroll to $110M.

Uh, probably not.

batmanZoSo
05-18-2004, 10:38 PM
Originally posted by SoxxoS
I am really leaning toward that fact of Maggs pads his stats in blowout games...

Everybody pads their stats in blowout games. Because it's a blowout. And you're facing bad pitchers. The reason why leadoff walks score a lot is because bad pitchers surrender leadoff walks. The reason everyone seems to hit like hell with the bases loaded is because crappy pitchers load the bases.

You guys are all buying into Reinsdorf's mentality of "this guy's not worth it" or "hey, we tried to sign him." That's exactly what he wants. If we lose Maggs, we're not gonna get the proper replacements, we'll be cooked. If you get an ace and a good center fielder in place of him it won't hurt too bad, but does anyone seeing that happening?

batmanZoSo
05-18-2004, 10:40 PM
Originally posted by samram
To look at this another way, is Maggs worth $14M to this team? If the Sox consider themselves a mid-market team (rightly or wrongly), and they have a manager who wants to play small ball, can they spend more than 20% of their payroll on one right-handed slugger? I wouldn't be surprised if someone gave him $14M after this season, which would mean he is worth $14M in the market. However, the Sox may be better served getting two 6-7M dollar free agents who fit the Ozzie philosophy. Or maybe they will increase payroll to $110M.

Uh, probably not.

No, the Sox are better served getting rid of BUMS like Konerko and Lee. And Valentin, who's not so much a bum as we just don't need him next year. Then we can easily afford Maggs.

ChiSox7
05-18-2004, 10:42 PM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo
He's got one of the biggest RBI totals in baseball so far and hasn't nearly hit stride yet. Considering his slow starting past he's done quite well. Through no fault of his are we in second.

I see what your saying, but if you need stats, look at this.

22 of those RBI have come in SEVEN of our games this season.

Four of those were blow out wins, in which only two of those he contributed when the game was actually close.

The other three were blowout losses. So, Maggs has had 22 of his 31 RBI in games that didn't matter very much because it was already decided. I will give him that he carried our offense at NY early in the year for that one series, and he did hit that early 2-run HR in the blowout loss to Baltimore.

In the other 31 games, much of which were EXTREMELY close, Maggs had plenty of opportunities and only NINE RBIs in those games. He couldn't come up with the BIG RBI when we needed him in those.

I like Maggs alot, but I stand by my statement that he pads his stats in blowouts and is NOT all that clutch for a three hitter.

It's all relative though. I'm sure you could make a case either way. This is just how I feel. Pretty staggering stats though.

samram
05-18-2004, 10:44 PM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo
No, the Sox are better served getting rid of BUMS like Konerko and Lee. And Valentin, who's not so much a bum as we just don't need him next year. Then we can easily afford Maggs.

I agree with you on that. It's just finding someone to take those guys. Valentin they can simply let walk (which they should have done this year). But Carlos and Konerko are high-salary guys at low-value positions. It's not a great market unless you really just want them off the team and you consider it addition by subtraction.

ChiSox7
05-18-2004, 10:46 PM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo
No, the Sox are better served getting rid of BUMS like Konerko and Lee. And Valentin, who's not so much a bum as we just don't need him next year. Then we can easily afford Maggs.

No doubt. I'd just like him to be awesome like a three hitter worth 14 million for the entire season. NOT three or four months. But the rest of them suck too, so what can you do.

cubhater
05-18-2004, 10:52 PM
I love Mags as much as the next fan, but sorry, I say no to $14 million unless that's the most he can make with an incentive-laced contract with no diminished clauses attached.

On the other hand, a threat of the Cub's acquring him would only jack up his asking price. Fourteen mil for Mags is a steal compared to what they're paying for Sosa. If he went to the north side, it would only add to the list of things Sox fans would never forgive JR for.

batmanZoSo
05-18-2004, 10:52 PM
Originally posted by ChiSox7
what can you do.

Get rid of those who really suck.

You can search for ways to bring Maggs down all you want, but statistically he's one of the best clutch hitters in the game of baseball. You ignore the LIPS stat. That's based on when it really counts and he hits .325--15 points higher than his career average--in those situations. And factor in that when you're losing, chances are you're facing a quality pitcher at the time.

If he hasn't been superb this year it's because he never is until June, at which time he erupts and carries us for a week at a time. He's a huge force in the lineup. Hitters fear him and Thomas alone. Everyone else they're confident they can get out.

ChiSox7
05-18-2004, 10:54 PM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo
Get rid of those who really suck.

You can search for ways to bring Maggs down all you want, but statistically he's one of the best clutch hitters in the game of baseball. You ignore the LIPS stat. That's based on when it really counts and he hits .325--15 points higher than his career average--in those situations. And factor in that when you're losing, chances are you're facing a quality pitcher at the time.

If he hasn't been superb this year it's because he never is until June, at which time he erupts and carries us for a week at a time. He's a huge force in the lineup. Hitters fear him and Thomas alone. Everyone else they're confident they can get out.


EXACTLY dude. He is not superb until June or July, when we have been out of the race or start to fall out of the race. That's EXACTLY what I'm trying to tell you. It's easy to carry a team when you are 9 games back in teh standings. There are a lot of clutch players when the games dont matter anymore.

I gave you stats about this year, and I told you that he is awesome in the 'clutch' late in the season when the games haven't mattered all that much. He pads his LIPS stats then. THats the argument. I'm not trying to bring him down. It's just an observation I've had over the years. You apparently want to disagree so that is def cool. If people didn't have opposite opinions the world would be a boring place.

iwannago
05-18-2004, 11:39 PM
If Valentine is worth $5M and Konerko $8M and D Wells was worth $10.5M then Maggs is worth $14M.

Also, JR should have kept the last six rows in the upper deck and sold them for $5.

batmanZoSo
05-19-2004, 12:34 AM
Originally posted by ChiSox7
EXACTLY dude. He is not superb until June or July, when we have been out of the race or start to fall out of the race. That's EXACTLY what I'm trying to tell you. It's easy to carry a team when you are 9 games back in teh standings. There are a lot of clutch players when the games dont matter anymore.

I gave you stats about this year, and I told you that he is awesome in the 'clutch' late in the season when the games haven't mattered all that much. He pads his LIPS stats then. THats the argument. I'm not trying to bring him down. It's just an observation I've had over the years. You apparently want to disagree so that is def cool. If people didn't have opposite opinions the world would be a boring place.

He's not superb until June or July because he doesn't play in cold weather. He's not one that succumbs to pressure, the LIPS show that. Sheesh. Every stat indicates that he turns it up when it counts. He doesn't start off slow because he's scared. He's from Venezuela, some people never adjust to cold weather well.

ChiSox7
05-19-2004, 12:38 AM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo
He's not superb until June or July because he doesn't play in cold weather. He's not one that succumbs to pressure, the LIPS show that. Sheesh. Every stat indicates that he turns it up when it counts. He doesn't start off slow because he's scared. He's from Venezuela, some people never adjust to cold weather well.

That could certainly be part of it, but I think it's more. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

batmanZoSo
05-19-2004, 12:47 AM
Originally posted by ChiSox7
That could certainly be part of it, but I think it's more. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

I don't agree to that. :cool:

Mickster
05-19-2004, 02:38 PM
Don't look at it in terms of $$$, look at it in terms of % of team payroll. The Question should be:

Is Maggs worth 25% of our payroll? Answer NO.

Was Arod worth 25% of the Rangers' payroll (of approx. $100M)? Answer NO.

Maggs would fit in quite nicely, imho, for the Yankees at 15M/yr., considering that is only about 9% of the team payroll. There was an article or a statistic that was posted previously about teams "winning it all" when they have a large % of a team's payroll dedicated towards one player and the numbers didn't look promising. At this team's self-imposed payroll, paying any player 15-16M would not be "worth it" considering you would only have $40-45M to spend on fielding the rest of the team. If we had a payroll of $100M, for instance, it would be a different question entirely. I love Maggs but "somethin's gotta give" and that "somethin" isn't JR's purse strings. For that same reason, we should honestly forget about signing Beltran as a FA because it will land us in the same spot that we are currently in.

With our payroll, give me a team with solid starters getting paid 3-5/m per position and a solid pitching staff being paid 30-35M and you might have yourself a winner... just my opinion, though.