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RKMeibalane
05-17-2004, 12:42 AM
Let me start this off by saying that Frank Thomas is my favorite baseball player. He has been for several years. However, I felt absolutely no sympathy for him this afternoon when he was tossed. I actually laughed about it when Hawk explained what happened. Why?

Because I'm getting tired of Frank worrying about balls and strikes. Just hit the ball, big guy! Sheesh! This business of whining about the strike zone gets old fast.

doublem23
05-17-2004, 12:45 AM
I must not have been watching when Frank got tossed, but if the call was bad, then he's got every right to bitch. You have to know the strike zone to hit. You just can't stand up there and swing like a madman.

TaylorStSox
05-17-2004, 01:38 AM
Originally posted by doublem23
I must not have been watching when Frank got tossed, but if the call was bad, then he's got every right to bitch. You have to know the strike zone to hit. You just can't stand up there and swing like a madman.

You don't argue balls and strikes when you're winning by 11 runs. The umps don't want to hear, the fans don't want to see it and your teamates don't want to hear you cry when you're winning. It's selfish.

OurBitchinMinny
05-17-2004, 02:01 AM
Dont get me wrong, I like frank, but he has gotten a little whinier every year. IMO he looks to walk too much now. I like that he has a good OBP, but if he is looking at fastballs down the middle, it would be more use to the team if he would drive those. He is a useless baserunner. He Ks looking too much nowadays.

StockdaleForVeep
05-17-2004, 02:02 AM
I can understand why, hes gettin walked non stop and barely getting any pitches to hit, giving him the low batting average. Cant blame the guy for wantin to be a producer. He doesnt get his numbers, we all complain saying why we paying this loser so much for hitting .240

He also got ripped on that bases loaded strike out i felt.

Nard
05-17-2004, 02:10 AM
He does get SOME pitches to hit.

Every time he draws a walk it seems on 2-0 or 3-1 there's a nice fastball straight down the middle, just right there, that he takes for some reason.

Maybe it's just me?

patbooyah
05-17-2004, 02:15 AM
Originally posted by TaylorStSox

the fans don't want to see it.

imagine my surprise when i finally figured out this thread wasn't about frank thomas' erection.

chisox06
05-17-2004, 02:32 AM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane
This business of whining about the strike zone gets old fast.

Frank Thomas whinning no way!. Ive gotten used to it, nothing is ever fair in Frank's world poor guy! :(:

batmanZoSo
05-17-2004, 02:49 AM
Frank has been getting bad calls all year, he has a right to complain. In fact he has for several years now and he deserves more respect than that...from the umpires and you guys.

My guess is he knew his team didn't need him today up by 10 runs, so he felt it was best to take out his anger at that moment and get it out of his system.

He doesn't constantly look at dead red fastballs, that's a horrible exagerration. Geez, suddenly everyone knows how to hit. You're gonna tell the number 10 on base guy all time what he should do? THat's lllllllaughable!

idseer
05-17-2004, 07:37 AM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo
Frank has been getting bad calls all year, he has a right to complain.

apparently you're wrong. it seems to me if he has the right to complain he wouldn't have been tossed.

Originally posted by batmanZoSo
In fact he has for several years now and he deserves more respect than that...from the umpires and you guys.

he doesn't deserve anything other than his paycheck. why is it people think frank 'deserves' special treatment? he 'deserves' to have strikes called balls when he jumps out of the batter's box on inside curves because he was a great hitter once? i don't think so.

Originally posted by batmanZoSo
My guess is he knew his team didn't need him today up by 10 runs, so he felt it was best to take out his anger at that moment and get it out of his system

my guess is that frank picked that time to complain the same way he picks the time to complain about his contract ... when everyone else is happy and ready to play ... in other words,
at the worst possible moments.

starboy0
05-17-2004, 07:44 AM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo
Frank has been getting bad calls all year, he has a right to complain...

During Saturday night's game there was a ball clearly low and outside on Frank and the umpire rang it up as a called 3rd strike. Then in his nextat bat he was forced to swing at a pitch in the same place because the umpire would probably call it a strike again. Of course he missed it.

He's been frustrated with the calls this series and I don't blame him a bit.

voodoochile
05-17-2004, 07:44 AM
Originally posted by idseer
My guess is that frank picked that time to complain the same way he picks the time to complain about his contract ... when everyone else is happy and ready to play ... in other words,
at the worst possible moments.

That's just simply one of the most ridiculous comments I've ever read from a Frank Hater. Frank Chose that moment to act up because the team is happy? Ludicrous.

I personally think it was because he got rung up the night before on a call that clearly was not a strike and the frustration got to him.

But, I cannot condone him arguing with the umps. Shut up and play, Frank. No one is out to get you. Start protecting the plate more.

soxtalker
05-17-2004, 08:04 AM
I don't know if it was a poor decision or a good one to argue with the ump in that situation. If arguing will have a positive impact next time, then it was the perfect time to argue and get thrown out; we were up by 11 runs.

As far as "just hitting it" -- I can't agree. Frank's discipline at the plate is a true joy to watch. I just wish that the hitters behind him would start protecting him by hitting well, so that the pitchers would stop pitching around him.

I've never been an apologist for Frank. In fact, I've often wanted to see him traded. But I have nothing but respect for the way he is handling the bat this season.

ChiSoxBobette
05-17-2004, 09:38 AM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane
Let me start this off by saying that Frank Thomas is my favorite baseball player. He has been for several years. However, I felt absolutely no sympathy for him this afternoon when he was tossed. I actually laughed about it when Hawk explained what happened. Why?

Because I'm getting tired of Frank worrying about balls and strikes. Just hit the ball, big guy! Sheesh! This business of whining about the strike zone gets old fast.

I was at Saturday & Sundays games and Frank had every right to gripe about the pitches , sitting behind homeplate it was clear as day the pitches being called strikes were not only balls they were unhittable. As far as getting thrown out Sunday, it was just as much the umpires fault as Franks, the guy followed Frank from the batters box towards the dugout probably talking trash to Frank after Frank had his say at homeplate he also was getting it from twin players so it was just a matter of time before the guy was going to run somebody it just happened to be Frank. That umpire and the one Saturday night were catching crap from both dugouts both games they were terrible. Yeah Frank could have just went back to the dugout and said nothing but how many of you would have jumped all over the guy for striking out , like I said those pitches were terrible and unhittable. There has to be some sort of consistency calling balls & strikes but those two guy were the worst.

idseer
05-17-2004, 10:43 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
That's just simply one of the most ridiculous comments I've ever read from a Frank Hater. Frank Chose that moment to act up because the team is happy? Ludicrous.



you didn't get my meaning. no, he didn't choose the moment BECAUSE the team is happy. my point was he inadvertantly or for some unknown reason picks bad times to do his acting out. i.e. when the team is in spring training and in good spirits or when they're doing well.
he's like a natural damper at times.

voodoochile
05-17-2004, 10:54 AM
Originally posted by idseer
you didn't get my meaning. no, he didn't choose the moment BECAUSE the team is happy. my point was he inadvertantly or for some unknown reason picks bad times to do his acting out. i.e. when the team is in spring training and in good spirits or when they're doing well.
he's like a natural damper at times.

It still makes no sense to me. If anything as has been pointed out, this was a good moment to express his frustration as the game was effectively over.

In addition, if the team is in good spirits after losing a series at home to their biggest competitor for the division title in which they all looked like crap then this team has major problems. 11-0 or not, that was NOT a good series and the team needs to realize that they have to focus every day.

Of course Ozzie benching Uribe the first two games did not help. Hopefully we continue to see the Sunday lineup.

idseer
05-17-2004, 10:55 AM
Originally posted by ChiSoxBob
I was at Saturday & Sundays games and Frank had every right to gripe about the pitches , sitting behind homeplate it was clear as day the pitches being called strikes were not only balls they were unhittable.

i understand your frustration, but i seriously doubt ANY ump would EVER call an unhittable ball a strike.

voodoochile
05-17-2004, 10:57 AM
Originally posted by idseer
i understand your frustration, but i seriously doubt ANY ump would EVER call an unhittable ball a strike.

Really? Man, you don't watch many games, do you?

idseer
05-17-2004, 11:00 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
It still makes no sense to me. If anything as has been pointed out, this was a good moment to express his frustration as the game was effectively over.

In addition, if the team is in good spirits after losing a series at home to their biggest competitor for the division title in which they all looked like crap then this team has major problems. 11-0 or not, that was NOT a good series and the team needs to realize that they have to focus every day.

Of course Ozzie benching Uribe the first two games did not help. Hopefully we continue to see the Sunday lineup.

after the fact it's easy to descibe it as a good moment to get tossed. i doubt frank was using that thought process.

as for the team play, they are still well above where anyone had a right to expect at this time of year. i doubt the team is 'down' because of a 1 - 2 record against the twins.

as you may remember i'm an ozzie fan (so far). but i'd sure like some explanation as to why he didn't play uribe for those games. he obviously needs some managing adjustments, which is ok with me as long as he learns from his mistakes.
i've about had enough of rowand too and hope they do keep willie out there as long as he's hitting.

idseer
05-17-2004, 11:04 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Really? Man, you don't watch many games, do you?

i use to watch a LOT of games ... and to be honest i have NEVER seen an unhittable ball called a strike.
maybe where we're not connecting is what is considered unhittable. i'm not talking about something just off the plate. most non-strikes are hittable. the only pitches i consider unhittable would be in the dirt, 2 feet outside or high ... stuff like that. and please don't try to convince me umps EVER call those things strikes.

voodoochile
05-17-2004, 11:08 AM
Originally posted by idseer
after the fact it's easy to descibe it as a good moment to get tossed. i doubt frank was using that thought process.

as for the team play, they are still well above where anyone had a right to expect at this time of year. i doubt the team is 'down' because of a 1 - 2 record against the twins.

as you may remember i'm an ozzie fan (so far). but i'd sure like some explanation as to why he didn't play uribe for those games. he obviously needs some managing adjustments, which is ok with me as long as he learns from his mistakes.
i've about had enough of rowand too and hope they do keep willie out there as long as he's hitting.

I doubt Frank thought at all about the team situation. But, your argument has changed. You claimed the team was up- hence it was a bad time for Frank to act out. Now they just "weren't down". Those are not the same thing. This team needs to be concerned about their recent play. They need to be focused like they were early in the season. They cannot let opportunities slip away and they need to be extra focused when they play the Twinkies, it's that simple. If Frank getting tossed is an excuse for this team to go deeper into a funk than there are HUGE problems all the way around and Ozzie needs to address them immediately.

I don't think Frank should be concentrating on the umps anyway. That is the road to ruin for him. I think he is very frustrated with the lack of pitches he is seeing. He is on a pace to walk something like 180 times this year and then he gets rung up on a couple of questionable calls. I understand his frustration, but do not condone the way he expressed it.

voodoochile
05-17-2004, 11:09 AM
Originally posted by idseer
i use to watch a LOT of games ... and to be honest i have NEVER seen an unhittable ball called a strike.
maybe where we're not connecting is what is considered unhittable. i'm not talking about something just off the plate. most non-strikes are hittable. the only pitches i consider unhittable would be in the dirt, 2 feet outside or high ... stuff like that. and please don't try to convince me umps EVER call those things strikes.

Okay, we have a different definition of unhittable. Nothing more to see here, move along, move along...

batmanZoSo
05-17-2004, 11:33 AM
Originally posted by idseer
apparently you're wrong. it seems to me if he has the right to complain he wouldn't have been tossed.

You never have the right to show up the umpire because you have to maintain a level of respect with the officials on the field. But they do make horrible mistakes and they know it, and sometimes a player has to make it known that he doesn't like what he's getting. That too keeps things in line.

he doesn't deserve anything other than his paycheck. why is it people think frank 'deserves' special treatment? he 'deserves' to have strikes called balls when he jumps out of the batter's box on inside curves because he was a great hitter once? i don't think so.

You're never going to appreciate Thomas. Well, not until he's gone. Maybe then you'll see how good he was.

CubKilla
05-17-2004, 11:34 AM
Originally posted by Nard
He does get SOME pitches to hit.

Every time he draws a walk it seems on 2-0 or 3-1 there's a nice fastball straight down the middle, just right there, that he takes for some reason.

Maybe it's just me?

It's not just you. Almost every first pitch to Thomas is a fastball right down the middle. He just rests the bat on his shoulder and takes. Thomas gets nothing like that again in that AB unless it's a mistake. Saturday, he swung at the first pitch fastball in the 4th inning and preceeded to place it in the LF seats. No need for a guy like Frank to take a first pitch strike fastball right over the plate if it's going to be the best pitch he's going to see.

batmanZoSo
05-17-2004, 11:44 AM
Originally posted by CubKilla
It's not just you. Almost every first pitch to Thomas is a fastball right down the middle. He just rests the bat on his shoulder and takes. Thomas gets nothing like that again in that AB unless it's a mistake. Saturday, he swung at the first pitch fastball in the 4th inning and preceeded to place it in the LF seats. No need for a guy like Frank to take a first pitch strike fastball right over the plate if it's going to be the best pitch he's going to see.

You're sounding like John Kruk there.

You ain't gonna hit a home run just because it's a fastball. You might pop it up, hit it at some one or even whiff on it. One pitch outs are partly what kills the lineup. Even if he hit a few more homers because of swinging at the first pitch, it wouldn't help us in the grand scheme of things. Frank absolutely needs to see 6 or 7 pitches or more when he bats because everyone else is usually out of the box in one way or the other after just a few pitches. We cannot forfeit our one guy who knows how to work a count.

CubKilla
05-17-2004, 11:53 AM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo
You're sounding like John Kruk there.

Thank God I don't look like him :D: .

idseer
05-17-2004, 12:35 PM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo


You're never going to appreciate Thomas. Well, not until he's gone. Maybe then you'll see how good he was.

actually i do appreciate his accomplishments. but i appreciate them for exactly what they are. nothing more.
everytime thomas is talked about here invariably someone throws his whole career at you as an argument about how good he is. the problem with that is .. it DOESN'T tell you how good he is. it only tells you how good he WAS!

he still makes positive contributions. but stop trying to act as if he's the thomas of old because he isn't, and baseball is a world of what have you done for me lately. i give him his due as still one of the best hitters on the team. but the way the team has been hitting that's not all that!

mdep524
05-17-2004, 12:54 PM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo
Frank has been getting bad calls all year, he has a right to complain. In fact he has for several years now and he deserves more respect than that...from the umpires and you guys.

It's true, Frank gets his fair share of bad calls from umps, but its not about "respect"-- its statistical error that umps have with every batter. The reason he gets so many bad calls is that he takes so many pitches, way more than about any other hitter in baseball. Other hitters would get the same bad calls as Frank on the exact same pitch, except they are not disciplined enough to lay off that pitch so they swing and the ump's call is no longer relevant. Bad calls on ly come on pitches with no swing, and since Frank swings less than anybody, statistically there is a higher chance for bad calls.

I would like to see Frank "zone 'em in" and sit on a fastball a little bit more often when he's ahead in the count (especially with runners on base) but overalll I wouldn't change much else about his approach at all, even if it means having to take a few bad calls along with his monstrous OBP.

StepsInSC
05-17-2004, 01:37 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
It still makes no sense to me. If anything as has been pointed out, this was a good moment to express his frustration as the game was effectively over.

In addition, if the team is in good spirits after losing a series at home to their biggest competitor for the division title in which they all looked like crap then this team has major problems. 11-0 or not, that was NOT a good series and the team needs to realize that they have to focus every day.

Of course Ozzie benching Uribe the first two games did not help. Hopefully we continue to see the Sunday lineup.


I can understand his logic though, if my team was playing great and I was the only one who hadn't gotten a hit I'd be a little frustrated. I think everyone would. I would hope I'd have enough of my wits about me to just let it go since my team was kicking ass but maybe not.

compy75
05-17-2004, 01:40 PM
You're sounding like John Kruk there.

You ain't gonna hit a home run just because it's a fastball. You might pop it up, hit it at some one or even whiff on it. One pitch outs are partly what kills the lineup. Even if he hit a few more homers because of swinging at the first pitch, it wouldn't help us in the grand scheme of things. Frank absolutely needs to see 6 or 7 pitches or more when he bats because everyone else is usually out of the box in one way or the other after just a few pitches. We cannot forfeit our one guy who knows how to work a count..

Reality is an argument can be made that the best pitches that Frank will ever see is the first pitch fastball. It almost seems now that he has the wrap that he takes it all the time and now the league has adjusted and simply groove that first pitch over. Frank taking alot of pitches has it's values, all I am saying is simply to zone the first pitch at least. He seems to be pure taking about 3 out of 4 Abs.

Additionally, Frank's mentality seems to have to change with runners on base. There have been about 5 times he has come up with a runner on 3rd where he took a first pitch strike and ended up popping up or likely striking out. His aggression seems to be a tad lower than what is needed and expected from where he hits in the order.
I am not by any means a Frank basher and he is my favorite player of all time. It just seems his mentality needs to change a bit based on situations.

ChiSox14305635
05-17-2004, 02:40 PM
You just can't stand up there and swing like a madman.





:shammy

Uhhhhhh...........

soxruleEP
05-17-2004, 03:01 PM
Originally posted by idseer
i understand your frustration, but i seriously doubt ANY ump would EVER call an unhittable ball a strike.

Then you have never watched baseball and you certainly didn't watch the Saturday or Sunday games.

The umpires consistently called pitches several inches off the plate and barely off the ground strikes.

There is no way that pitch is hittable for any thing but a weak grounder to the right side.

The umpires in town this week (and I was at every game) were just plain terrible.

And as for Frank being "selfish" for getting ejected, I hardly think anyone on the team was in the locker room after the game thinking what a bastard Frank is for getting ejected.

He is a HOF player whose batting style is built on being ahead in the count and driving the ball when he knows a good pitch is coming. I have watched him throughout his career murder 2-0, 2-1, and 3-1 counts. He gets on base--if Lee or Konerko could ever get a hit behind him we would be scoring a lot more runs.

I wish the Frank haters would actually watch the games instead of taking their cues from the delirious callers on the radio and the idiot columnists who hate Frank because he doesn't kiss their asses.

maurice
05-17-2004, 03:37 PM
Selfishness and bad timing? *****. If you're ever going to get tossed (and Frank rarely does), there is no better time than when your team has a huge lead.

I'm not a fan of arguing with umps, but Frank was understandibly frustrated since he started getting squeezed after his HR Saturday. The very next AB, he got called out on a ball that was both low AND outside by a significant margin. The ump needs to turn around an walk away, not follow him towards the dugout and quietly toss him from 40 feet away.

BTW, very few folks have the credentials to advise the greatest hitter in Chicago history on how to hit. Most of them are dead. I'm quite certain that none of the living ones post on this site.

34 Inch Stick
05-17-2004, 04:03 PM
Yeah, now I know why they call him the Big Hurt......oh, you said "ejection"....sorry, return to your thread.

batmanZoSo
05-17-2004, 09:55 PM
Originally posted by idseer
it only tells you how good he WAS!

he still makes positive contributions. but stop trying to act as if he's the thomas of old because he isn't, and baseball is a world of what have you done for me lately. i give him his due as still one of the best hitters on the team. but the way the team has been hitting that's not all that!

Well then you have to lower your expectations. He's not the same hitter he once was, you know that, but you're not implementing that fact into your reasoning. He used to be a 10, now he's an 8. He's not gonna hit .353 anymore or have a 1.500 ops, but he's still THE best hitter on the team. Magglio will hit for a much higher average, but that's overrated. Frank will outdo him in on-base by a big margin.

idseer
05-17-2004, 10:40 PM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo
Well then you have to lower your expectations. He's not the same hitter he once was, you know that, but you're not implementing that fact into your reasoning. He used to be a 10, now he's an 8. He's not gonna hit .353 anymore or have a 1.500 ops, but he's still THE best hitter on the team. Magglio will hit for a much higher average, but that's overrated. Frank will outdo him in on-base by a big margin.

absolutely not! magglio is the best and most feared hitter on this team.

voodoochile
05-17-2004, 10:47 PM
Originally posted by idseer
absolutely not! magglio is the best and most feared hitter on this team.

Who's second?

batmanZoSo
05-17-2004, 11:20 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Who's second?

Magglio.

ChiSox7
05-17-2004, 11:23 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Who's second?

I happen to think Uribe is first and Willie is second! :) The rest of them are not doing nearly what we pay them to do, as we have watchind Jones and Hunter carry their team through 6 of 7 wins in the last week.

idseer
05-17-2004, 11:59 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Who's second?

i'd go with frank. but i remind of what i said earlier ... that's no big feat on this team.

lee SHOULD have been second, but he is very disappointing thus far.

let's face it, no one is stellar right now on the sox. it's very discouraging, especially after the hot start we had. frankly i don't know what the problem is. every team has a bad week or even 2 week stretch and maybe that's where the sox are now but with their history you get suspicious about what's going on.
it's still early and i haven't given up on this team, but i can understand why some have.
sorry, i guess i rambled a little off topic.

ChiSoxBobette
05-18-2004, 07:29 AM
Originally posted by idseer
i understand your frustration, but i seriously doubt ANY ump would EVER call an unhittable ball a strike.

Well we were behind home plate and the twinkie catcher had to slide over towards the batters box and backhand the pitch it was almost down in the dirt so I would call that unhittable.

idseer
05-18-2004, 08:51 AM
Originally posted by ChiSoxBob
Well we were behind home plate and the twinkie catcher had to slide over towards the batters box and backhand the pitch it was almost down in the dirt so I would call that unhittable.

if you can't be intellectually honest about the subject then there is no further discussion to be had.

maurice
05-18-2004, 02:20 PM
Originally posted by ChiSoxBob
Well we were behind home plate and the twinkie catcher had to slide over towards the batters box and backhand the pitch it was almost down in the dirt so I would call that unhittable.

I also was at the game and saw the same thing. In addition, after the game, the Twins' pitcher told the media he understood why Frank was upset, since it was a very questionable call.

Being the second most pitched around hitter in the game, Frank has plenty of reason to be upset this season. It doesn't help when umps start calling bad pitches strikes and haters complain that Frank doesn't hit more pitches out of the zone.