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View Full Version : When does KW have financial freedom?


SoxxoS
05-16-2004, 01:39 PM
I thought that next year, a lot of money was coming off the books, and we can really change the personnel of this team. I was wrong. It seems like we still have a lot of dead-weight salary coming back for another year. How exciting.

Does someone have the payroll numbers? I am not 100% sure on any of this:

So Maggs is possibly gone-14 million
Valentin is gone-5 million


OK, that's 19 million with an outfield hole to fill...as Uribe can possibly handle SS. But Uribe is going to want a raise.

I need a site to tell me how much each player is making, and if they are under contract next year. I think Lip did a breakdown about a week ago and said that we are still going to be right where we are now, in terms of giving everyone raises...

Can anyone help out?

Paulwny
05-16-2004, 01:43 PM
http://baseball.espn.go.com/mlb/teams/salaries?team=chw

batmanZoSo
05-16-2004, 01:48 PM
Why does it say we're paying Jerry Hairston 1.65 million?

jabrch
05-16-2004, 01:50 PM
Koch is also gone after this year - take another 6.375 off the books. Frank has his dual options again, 8mm for him, and 11mm for the team. So in all likelikhood, he will stay at 8mm. If he doesn't we won't pay 11m to keep him - even the most diehard Frankers wouldn't suggest we pay him 11mm, right? Loaiza is a FA - but that is more a bad thing than a good thing. He made 3.5 this year - and will be due a decent raise.

In any case, Manos, Koch and possibly Magglio will leave KW with a ton of cash to use. I would love to see Hudson and either O. Cabrerra or E. Rentiria here to play SS, with Uribe at 2B and Harris in CF.

Daver
05-16-2004, 01:55 PM
Try here. (http://www.bluemanc.demon.co.uk/baseball/mlb/mlbconc.htm)

batmanZoSo
05-16-2004, 01:55 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
Koch is also gone after this year - take another 6.375 off the books. Frank has his dual options again, 8mm for him, and 11mm for the team. So in all likelikhood, he will stay at 8mm. If he doesn't we won't pay 11m to keep him - even the most diehard Frankers wouldn't suggest we pay him 11mm, right? Loaiza is a FA - but that is more a bad thing than a good thing. He made 3.5 this year - and will be due a decent raise.

In any case, Manos, Koch and possibly Magglio will leave KW with a ton of cash to use. I would love to see Hudson and either O. Cabrerra or E. Rentiria here to play SS, with Uribe at 2B and Harris in CF.

Koch and Valentin are gone, Lee should be traded. So that's 18 million dollars. I'm not in favor of trading Maggs. Take him out of this lineup and Frank suffers big time. Reed will make 300K and we need to find a center fielder for two years...maybe only one...until Anderson is ready.

SoxxoS
05-16-2004, 01:58 PM
Thanks guys. That is a great site, Daver.

I am going to look at the numbers after the game.

Koch going off the books made my day...I thought he was here one more year. That's a great thing.

jabrch
05-16-2004, 02:00 PM
Originally posted by Daver
Try here. (http://www.bluemanc.demon.co.uk/baseball/mlb/mlbconc.htm)

Daver, that site used to be great - they haven't updated it in quite a while. Now it is fairly stale. Still some decent 411, but not enough to use.

Does anyone know anything better for individual players in terms of the length and details of their contracts?

Daver
05-16-2004, 02:11 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
Daver, that site used to be great - they haven't updated it in quite a while. Now it is fairly stale. Still some decent 411, but not enough to use.

Does anyone know anything better for individual players in terms of the length and details of their contracts?

I havn't visited that site in awhile,I did not know that.


You can try here. (http://dugoutdollars.blogspot.com/2003_12_28_dugoutdollars_archive.html)

jabrch
05-16-2004, 05:01 PM
EXCELLENT! - Thanks!

Originally posted by Daver
I havn't visited that site in awhile,I did not know that.


You can try here. (http://dugoutdollars.blogspot.com/2003_12_28_dugoutdollars_archive.html)

CWSGuy406
05-16-2004, 05:15 PM
Are we seriously paying Vic Darensbourg (sp?) 1.4 million dollars? If we are, that kind of sucks...

gosox41
05-17-2004, 07:09 AM
Originally posted by Paulwny
http://baseball.espn.go.com/mlb/teams/salaries?team=chw

Funny how 2 of the top 4 highest paid players on the team are the most unproductive.


Bob

gosox41
05-17-2004, 07:11 AM
Originally posted by SoxxoS
I thought that next year, a lot of money was coming off the books, and we can really change the personnel of this team. I was wrong. It seems like we still have a lot of dead-weight salary coming back for another year. How exciting.

Does someone have the payroll numbers? I am not 100% sure on any of this:

So Maggs is possibly gone-14 million
Valentin is gone-5 million


OK, that's 19 million with an outfield hole to fill...as Uribe can possibly handle SS. But Uribe is going to want a raise.

I need a site to tell me how much each player is making, and if they are under contract next year. I think Lip did a breakdown about a week ago and said that we are still going to be right where we are now, in terms of giving everyone raises...

Can anyone help out?

IN answer to the questions of this thread, is when KW stops wasting money on unprocutive players.


Bob

Randar68
05-17-2004, 10:36 AM
Originally posted by gosox41
IN answer to the questions of this thread, is when KW stops wasting money on unprocutive players.


Bob

Yep, instead he's supposed to wait until they hit FA and then compete with NYY, CHN, BOS, etc for them. Yep, that's a winning idea for a mid-market restrained team...

jabrch
05-17-2004, 11:44 AM
Originally posted by Randar68
Yep, instead he's supposed to wait until they hit FA and then compete with NYY, CHN, BOS, etc for them. Yep, that's a winning idea for a mid-market restrained team...

Some day I look forward to meeting you Randar. You seem to say things perfectly, right while I am thinking them.

Jason

JRIG
05-17-2004, 11:47 AM
Originally posted by Randar68
Yep, instead he's supposed to wait until they hit FA and then compete with NYY, CHN, BOS, etc for them. Yep, that's a winning idea for a mid-market restrained team...

Would it have been the worst thing in the world to lose Paul Konerko to free agency?

joecrede
05-17-2004, 11:51 AM
Originally posted by JRIG
Would it have been the worst thing in the world to lose Paul Konerko to free agency?

First base is not an easy position to fill. :gulp:

Frater Perdurabo
05-17-2004, 11:52 AM
Originally posted by joecrede
First base is not an easy position to fill. :gulp:

Yeah, first-ballot HOF hitters who can play first base are really hard to find on the White Sox. Especially ones who wear number 35.

joecrede
05-17-2004, 11:56 AM
Originally posted by Frater Perdurabo
Yeah, first-ballot HOF hitters who can play first base are really hard to find on the White Sox. Especially ones who wear number 35.

That's why taking Konerko off the market, away from the likes of the Red Sox, Yankees, and Cubs, was so imparitive. :gulp:

Randar68
05-17-2004, 12:07 PM
Originally posted by JRIG
Would it have been the worst thing in the world to lose Paul Konerko to free agency?

Gotta love the hindsight. Paul was just an All STar and before his foot injury in the second half, put up silly numbers (while STILL not walking enough, LOL)...

That being said, many, including myself questioned the intelligence of the move, but it's hard to argue with it at the time given long-term financial constraints the Sox are under. Have to strike before they reach the market. That kind of thing will force your hand and will lead to some bad contracts. No doubt.

Yes, it looks terrible now, no doubt about it.

Frater Perdurabo
05-17-2004, 12:15 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
That's why taking Konerko off the market, away from the likes of the Red Sox, Yankees, and Cubs, was so imparitive. :gulp:

How great it would have been to have traded Konerko to the Cubs for a starting pitcher, like, say, Zambrano.

gosox41
05-18-2004, 07:31 AM
Originally posted by Randar68
Gotta love the hindsight. Paul was just an All STar and before his foot injury in the second half, put up silly numbers (while STILL not walking enough, LOL)...

That being said, many, including myself questioned the intelligence of the move, but it's hard to argue with it at the time given long-term financial constraints the Sox are under. Have to strike before they reach the market. That kind of thing will force your hand and will lead to some bad contracts. No doubt.

Yes, it looks terrible now, no doubt about it.

I agree with striking before a player hits the market, but KW lacks the business sense to do this job. Sure he's under tight paroll constraints, but so are the Twins and they have more division titles then we do this century.

Playerrs are assets that need to be evaulated compared to other assets. PK's a guy who's OPS has been 6 or 7th in the AL in his best year, and has been known to have long slumps before. Why pay him $8 mill per.

It's easy to find a first baseman for a lot less money, even if he does have a lower OPS and put that PK money into another asset, like say, a 5th starter.

First basemen are a dime a doze. Unless you have a superstar, it rarely makes sense to overpay for one.

Should we talk about Koch and Foulke next and financial contraints?


Bob

Frater Perdurabo
05-18-2004, 08:10 AM
Originally posted by gosox41
First basemen are a dime a doze. Unless you have a superstar, it rarely makes sense to overpay for one.


And the Sox DO have a player who can play 1B at a respectable level who is ON HIS WAY TO THE HALL OF FAME.

Randar68
05-18-2004, 10:13 AM
Originally posted by gosox41
I agree with striking before a player hits the market, but KW lacks the business sense to do this job. Sure he's under tight paroll constraints, but so are the Twins and they have more division titles then we do this century.

Playerrs are assets that need to be evaulated compared to other assets. PK's a guy who's OPS has been 6 or 7th in the AL in his best year, and has been known to have long slumps before. Why pay him $8 mill per.

It's easy to find a first baseman for a lot less money, even if he does have a lower OPS and put that PK money into another asset, like say, a 5th starter.

First basemen are a dime a doze. Unless you have a superstar, it rarely makes sense to overpay for one.

Should we talk about Koch and Foulke next and financial contraints?


Bob

Once again, the market has changed since Pauly signed, so hindsight is beautiful thing. In addition, these were some of the moves early on in KW's tenure, and when you hire someone to learn on the job, you're going to have mistakes... That was a given the day he was hired.

Relax with the KW hate. Would you rather have had Dan Evans? *shudder*

jabrch
05-18-2004, 10:17 AM
Originally posted by Randar68
Relax with the KW hate. Would you rather have had Dan Evans? *shudder*

How bad did Evans do in LA? Take a look at that team. The only Depodesta addition that I know of is Milton Bradley - and that was just cuz he was such a bargain when the Injuns dumped him. Evans built, over time, a fairly strong team in LA. Depodesta got in at the right time. I don't think, at the end of the day, that Evans was as terrible as he was when he first started. (See learning on the job)

Randar68
05-18-2004, 10:20 AM
Originally posted by jabrch
How bad did Evans do in LA? Take a look at that team. The only Depodesta addition that I know of is Milton Bradley - and that was just cuz he was such a bargain when the Injuns dumped him. Evans built, over time, a fairly strong team in LA. Depodesta got in at the right time. I don't think, at the end of the day, that Evans was as terrible as he was when he first started. (See learning on the job)

He had one of the 5 highest payrolls to work with in all of baseball, and produced what?

He did help rebuild their farm system, but his MLB-level transactions have been nothing short of pathetic.

KingXerxes
05-18-2004, 10:20 AM
The job Evans did in LA is starting to pay dividends this season. He'll be back with some club before too long.

joecrede
05-18-2004, 10:25 AM
Originally posted by Randar68
Once again, the market has changed since Pauly signed, so hindsight is beautiful thing. In addition, these were some of the moves early on in KW's tenure, and when you hire someone to learn on the job, you're going to have mistakes... That was a given the day he was hired.

What about the Billy Koch signing or the Carlos Lee signing?

I can live with these financial mistakes I suppose, but Williams compounds them by whining to the media about not having money to spend.

jabrch
05-18-2004, 10:26 AM
Originally posted by Randar68
He had one of the 5 highest payrolls to work with in all of baseball, and produced what?

He did help rebuild their farm system, but his MLB-level transactions have been nothing short of pathetic.

Ok - that I agree with. Does he get credit for building that pitching staff and the pen? I do agree that he has almost no eye for offensive talent. I'd love to see him back with us running our drafts. I just don't think he'd want to work for Kenny.

Randar68
05-18-2004, 10:27 AM
Originally posted by jabrch
Ok - that I agree with. Does he get credit for building that pitching staff and the pen? I do agree that he has almost no eye for offensive talent. I'd love to see him back with us running our drafts. I just don't think he'd want to work for Kenny.

Well, I would bet the mortgage against him being back with the Sox as long as JR or KW are here.

Dadawg_77
05-18-2004, 10:28 AM
Originally posted by Randar68
Yep, instead he's supposed to wait until they hit FA and then compete with NYY, CHN, BOS, etc for them. Yep, that's a winning idea for a mid-market restrained team...

That is a lack of hindsight. At the time the market had three players who could replace Konerko's production for 1/7 of the cost. Kenny misread the market and gave Konerko a contract fitting the old market. If he had non tender Konerko and gone and signed Ortiz or Fullmer, the Sox would have gotten the same or better production.

Dadawg_77
05-18-2004, 10:30 AM
Originally posted by Randar68
He had one of the 5 highest payrolls to work with in all of baseball, and produced what?

He did help rebuild their farm system, but his MLB-level transactions have been nothing short of pathetic.

Almost a fourth of it was dead weight which he didn't acquire.

Randar68
05-18-2004, 10:31 AM
Originally posted by joecrede
What about the Billy Koch signing or the Carlos Lee signing?

I can live with these financial mistakes I suppose, but Williams compounds them by whining to the media about not having money to spend.

The Koch one is the worst one, and while Koch was horrible last year, who really could have forseen a loss of 5-10 mph off his velocity? In addition, knowing he just had to give Foulke away, who was forseen to be the closer? It was a gaping hole for the near-term future! At least it wasn't a real long-term contract. KW had no experience dealing with contract negotiations and agents etc. He has done well with the talent and scouting side, that is undeniable. He definitely had the most to learn on the contract side. Roland Hemond was supposedly hired to help in this aspect, as an advisor, but I couldn't say how much he's helped or hindered KW. who knows?

Carlos was very solid last year, although he has been slow to come around this year for certain.

Randar68
05-18-2004, 10:32 AM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
Almost a fourth of it was dead weight which he didn't acquire.

:whiner:

It's called "creativity."

Dadawg_77
05-18-2004, 10:33 AM
Originally posted by Randar68
:whiner:

It's called "creativity."

Which he was doing but Dreifort, what can you do with that?

Randar68
05-18-2004, 10:34 AM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
That is a lack of hindsight. At the time the market had three players who could replace Konerko's production for 1/7 of the cost. Kenny misread the market and gave Konerko a contract fitting the old market. If he had non tender Konerko and gone and signed Ortiz or Fullmer, the Sox would have gotten the same or better production.

1) Pauly was probably the most fan-friendly and fan-liked player on the team. As much as that may not matter to you, a team full of pouters and Hispanic non-english speaking players, it's important fromt he business/marketing perspective to have someone the fans relate/bond to.
2) Pauly just came off a monster first half and was hampered by that foot injury the second half, still posting good overall numbers.
3) At the inflexion point of the market, he made the wrong move, yes, he did... IN HINDSIGHT. Sheeeesh

Randar68
05-18-2004, 10:36 AM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
Which he was doing but Dreifort, what can you do with that?

So, then, he still had, what, 90 million to work with?

In addition, the Dodgers have historically had one of the largest scouting budgets and staff in baseball and been one of the highest spender in acquiring Latin American and Asian players.

The resources he had went FAR beyond the MLB payroll.