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gosox41
05-15-2004, 11:36 PM
If you look at the number of different lineups the Sox have had lately, it seems to me that Ozzie is doing as much tinkering as Manuel did. Does anyone have the numbers on how many different line ups Ozzie has used this year. It seems like he's used a ton of different one's the last two weeks.


Bob

voodoochile
05-15-2004, 11:42 PM
Originally posted by gosox41
If you look at the number of different lineups the Sox have had lately, it seems to me that Ozzie is doing as much tinkering as Manuel did. Does anyone have the numbers on how many different line ups Ozzie has used this year. It seems like he's used a ton of different one's the last two weeks.


Bob

Yes, he is actually becoming worse than Manuel, IMO.

john2499
05-15-2004, 11:42 PM
Don't know how many lineups he has used but, I'd like to know his reason for benching his .350 hitter for two consecutive days!!

Viva Magglio
05-15-2004, 11:43 PM
:ozzie
*TINKER* *TINKER* *TINKER*

gosox41
05-15-2004, 11:48 PM
Originally posted by john2499
Don't know how many lineups he has used but, I'd like to know his reason for benching his .350 hitter for two consecutive days!!

That is plain stupid. I didn't see the game tonight (thankfully) but why do that? I swear Ozzie really is JM in disguise.


Bob

JRIG
05-16-2004, 12:16 AM
Originally posted by gosox41
If you look at the number of different lineups the Sox have had lately, it seems to me that Ozzie is doing as much tinkering as Manuel did. Does anyone have the numbers on how many different line ups Ozzie has used this year. It seems like he's used a ton of different one's the last two weeks.


Bob

You can thank me later.

Ozzie has used 21 different batting orders in 35 games.

Most popular? He's used three different lineups 4 times each:

Harris, Valentin, Ordonez, Thomas, Lee, Konerko, Crede, Rowand, Olivo

Harris, Valentin, Ordonez, Thomas, Lee, Konerko, Crede, Rowand, Alomar

Harris, Uribe, Ordonez, Thomas, Lee, Konerko, Crede, Rowand, Olivo

pearso66
05-16-2004, 12:19 AM
Most popular? He's used three different lineups 4 times each:

Harris, Valentin, Ordonez, Thomas, Lee, Konerko, Crede, Rowand, Olivo

Harris, Valentin, Ordonez, Thomas, Lee, Konerko, Crede, Rowand, Alomar

Harris, Uribe, Ordonez, Thomas, Lee, Konerko, Crede, Rowand, Olivo

I woudl count the 1st 2 orders as one and say its been used 8 times. a catcher always gets days off, so for that fact, i dont think I'd call that tinkering. In the same sense, the 3rd one COULD be thougth of as uribe giving valentin the day off. But thats just my perception.

SoxxoS
05-16-2004, 01:53 AM
I can't really blame Ozzie for tinkering...although I wish he wouldn't. To me, there is a very simple solution to all this nonsense:

Against right handers:
Harris-2B
Uribe-3B
Thomas-1B
Ordonez-RF
Valentin-SS
Lee-LF
Gload-DH
Olivo-C
Rowand-CF...actually, change Rowand to Reed...

Against lefties:
Harris-2B
Uribe-SS
Thomas-DH
Ordonez-RF
Konerko-1B
Crede-3B
Lee-LF
Olivo-C
Rowand-CF

This is NOT rocket science. You have two platoon players in Konerko and Valentin (That are making a combined 22% of our payroll, by the by).

You put the best players out there, regardless of how much they are making. Winning games is the bottom line. We have too many automatic outs in certain players (Konerko, Crede, Rowand) which is just too much to overcome.

We are relying on the home run, but when we hit the home run, it's a solo shot. That isn't helping.

mdep524
05-16-2004, 02:10 AM
Originally posted by SoxxoS
I can't really blame Ozzie for tinkering...although I wish he wouldn't. To me, there is a very simple solution to all this nonsense:

Against right handers:
Harris-2B
Uribe-3B
Thomas-1B
Ordonez-RF
Valentin-SS
Lee-LF
Gload-DH
Olivo-C
Rowand-CF...actually, change Rowand to Reed...

Against lefties:
Harris-2B
Uribe-SS
Thomas-DH
Ordonez-RF
Konerko-1B
Crede-3B
Lee-LF
Olivo-C
Rowand-CF

This is NOT rocket science. You have two platoon players in Konerko and Valentin (That are making a combined 22% of our payroll, by the by).

You put the best players out there, regardless of how much they are making. Winning games is the bottom line. We have too many automatic outs in certain players (Konerko, Crede, Rowand) which is just too much to overcome.

We are relying on the home run, but when we hit the home run, it's a solo shot. That isn't helping.

I like your line ups.

It might be a little too early to write Crede off as a platoon player, bu he needs to make a few changes fast or else that is what he'll be.

Also, this thread is very misleading. Ozzie is actually not tinkering all that much, aside from trying Lee in the 2 hole and trying to find a spot for Uribe after Valentin came back, when he didn't have any other choice.

When JRIG says "Ozzie has used 21 different batting orders in 35 games," it is very deceptive and makes it sound like much more tinkering is going on than actually is. The natural day to day rotation of catchers and Valentin's injury account for the top 3 line ups he presented to be virtually the same thing. If you add a fouth line up in there--Uribe and Alomar instead of Valentin (injured) and Olivo (catcher's day off/pitcher preference), you
have about half of the games this season right there.

Hitting Ross Gload #3 or Lee #2 or Uribe #5-- that's tinkering. But a variation of

Harris
Uribe/Valentin
Ordonez
Thomas
Lee
Konerko (/Gload)
Crede
Rowand
Olivo/Alomar

is not tinkering. It's not the line up I would prefer, as mentioned above, but that is a different story. :D:

SoxxoS
05-16-2004, 02:13 AM
Yeah, you are right. I should say use the lineups until Crede cuts about 2 seconds off his swing. Then he can DH or play 1B against right handers. Gload can warm the bench.

If I had to do a shot everytime Crede hit a popup over the past 4 games, I would have died of alcohol poisoning.

gosox41
05-16-2004, 07:59 AM
Originally posted by JRIG
You can thank me later.

Ozzie has used 21 different batting orders in 35 games.

Most popular? He's used three different lineups 4 times each:

Harris, Valentin, Ordonez, Thomas, Lee, Konerko, Crede, Rowand, Olivo

Harris, Valentin, Ordonez, Thomas, Lee, Konerko, Crede, Rowand, Alomar

Harris, Uribe, Ordonez, Thomas, Lee, Konerko, Crede, Rowand, Olivo

THank you. And after reading the papers today, Ozzie is going ot have another different line up. Maybe it's not as much as JM, but even JM wasn't dumb enough to sit out a .350 hitter 2 games in a row.



Bob

Railsplitter
05-16-2004, 08:00 AM
Originally posted by gosox41
That is plain stupid. I didn't see the game tonight (thankfully) but why do that? I swear Ozzie really is JM in disguise.



I always though Jerry Manuel was Terry Bevington in disguise.

gosox41
05-16-2004, 08:00 AM
Originally posted by pearso66
I woudl count the 1st 2 orders as one and say its been used 8 times. a catcher always gets days off, so for that fact, i dont think I'd call that tinkering. In the same sense, the 3rd one COULD be thougth of as uribe giving valentin the day off. But thats just my perception.


There's no reason Olivo can't catch 130 games. Add to the fact that he is hitting that much better then Alomar and I can make a good case to play Alomar 1-2 games a week at most.


Bob

TornLabrum
05-16-2004, 08:13 AM
Originally posted by gosox41
THank you. And after reading the papers today, Ozzie is going ot have another different line up. Maybe it's not as much as JM, but even JM wasn't dumb enough to sit out a .350 hitter 2 games in a row.



Bob

No, but if the .350 hitter went 4 for 4, he'd bench him the next day.

gosox41
05-16-2004, 08:27 AM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
No, but if the .350 hitter went 4 for 4, he'd bench him the next day.

True. He's also continue to play the .087 hitter every day. Is Ramirez still with the Angels?

BTW, on a side not about Ramirez. That is arguable another bad move by KW who insisted on keeping him on the ML roster instead of developing him when he clearly wasn't ready to hit up here. Part of the reason I think JM kept playing him was to shove it in KW's face to get rid of Ramirez. Of course the other part of the reason is that JM is just a moron.


Bob

oldcomiskey
05-16-2004, 08:57 AM
Gee, maybe if the Sox would stop trying to kill the damn ball every time up, Ozzie wouldnt have to tinker--and where is Uribe gonna play every day

soxtalker
05-16-2004, 08:59 AM
I must confess that I've never shared the passionate distain for tinkering that many of you express. It isn't that I think that constantly changing the lineup is good, but you do need to make changes when things aren't working.

I'd like to shift the focus to the underlying reasons that the manager is making these changes so much. I can think of at least three possible reasons (and there probably are more):

1) Experiment until he finds a lineup that can produce (hit).
2) Rotate players to keep a well-rested, yet sharp team.
3) Try to keep everyone happy.

The benching of Uribe for the past two games suggests that 1) is not the highest priority. What do the rest of you think?

Paulwny
05-16-2004, 09:19 AM
Originally posted by oldcomiskey
Gee, maybe if the Sox would stop trying to kill the damn ball every time up, Ozzie wouldnt have to tinker--and where is Uribe gonna play every day

Oz wasn't a happy camper during the post game interview. He ~ mentioned trying to kill the ball, too many pop ups and lack of thinking "team ball". He cited Lee bunting for a hit, leading off an inning, as an example of team ball.
He said there will be line up changes.