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gosox41
05-14-2004, 11:16 PM
I'll probably get ripped for this, but I don't care. The more I think about this team's offensive the more aggravated I get. Sure things are great when everyone's hitting and they score 15 runs a game, but what good does it do you when you lose the very next game 1-0 only to lose the next day and score a whopping 2 runs. The pitching has kept the Sox in the last 4 games and all they have to show for it is a 2-2 record.

If someone told me ahead of time that the Twins would score a total of 3 runs tongiht or the Orioles would score 1 run I'd assume the Sox would win both those games.

Which leads me to my point. The Sox have 5 very similar hitters in the line up: Lee, Ordonez, Thomas, Konerko, and Crede. Each one brings a little something different to the table like Magglio's ability to hit for average and power or Frank's uncanny to get on base a ton or Lee's ability to steal bases. I don't know what PK brings other then a big contract. And Crede is cheap. But these guys are prettu much the same. and there needs to be changes. The problem is it tends to be all or nothing withr this team. Sure the Sox have power, but how many solo home runs can you hit? All 5 of those guys seem to have major deficiencies in the ability to manufacture runs. Is it any wonder that PK and Ordonez are 1-2 in GIDP's over a 3 year time period. It's not coincidence.

IMHO, it's time for KW to shake up the team and get those grinders he keeps talking about. The formula of having a team that is capable of hitting 200+ HR's isn't working. Power comes in spurts but can also leave quickly/

After looking at these 5 guys I would consider making 2 changes:

1. Bench Crede. I like the guy, but enough is enough. It's time to produce. Put Uribe out there everyday. He's doing one think Crede isn't...getting on base. That's what it's all about. There's no doubt Uribe will cool off, but until then make him the everyday third baseman.

2. Trade Lee. Ordonez is the best overall player on the team. Thomas is way too valuable to trade with an OBP above .450. Crede is young and cheap and has upside. PK is untradeable. Thawt leaves Lee. As much as I'm thrilled that his walks are up and K's are down, he can bring in a good starting pitcher.

I think the Sox offense would be improved with a batting order of:

Harris
Uribe
Ordonez
Thomas
Valentin
Reed
Konerko
Rowand
Olivo

The last thing this team needs is another right handed power hitter. They need players who strike out less, have the ability to bunt, and who most importantly can get on base.


Bob

RKMeibalane
05-14-2004, 11:20 PM
Originally posted by gosox41
I don't know what PK brings other then a big contract.

LMAO!

OEO Magglio
05-14-2004, 11:23 PM
Originally posted by gosox41
I'll probably get ripped for this, but I don't care. The more I think about this team's offensive the more aggravated I get. Sure things are great when everyone's hitting and they score 15 runs a game, but what good does it do you when you lose the very next game 1-0 only to lose the next day and score a whopping 2 runs. The pitching has kept the Sox in the last 4 games and all they have to show for it is a 2-2 record.

If someone told me ahead of time that the Twins would score a total of 3 runs tongiht or the Orioles would score 1 run I'd assume the Sox would win both those games.

Which leads me to my point. The Sox have 5 very similar hitters in the line up: Lee, Ordonez, Thomas, Konerko, and Crede. Each one brings a little something different to the table like Magglio's ability to hit for average and power or Frank's uncanny to get on base a ton or Lee's ability to steal bases. I don't know what PK brings other then a big contract. And Crede is cheap. But these guys are prettu much the same. and there needs to be changes. The problem is it tends to be all or nothing withr this team. Sure the Sox have power, but how many solo home runs can you hit? All 5 of those guys seem to have major deficiencies in the ability to manufacture runs. Is it any wonder that PK and Ordonez are 1-2 in GIDP's over a 3 year time period. It's not coincidence.

IMHO, it's time for KW to shake up the team and get those grinders he keeps talking about. The formula of having a team that is capable of hitting 200+ HR's isn't working. Power comes in spurts but can also leave quickly/

After looking at these 5 guys I would consider making 2 changes:

1. Bench Crede. I like the guy, but enough is enough. It's time to produce. Put Uribe out there everyday. He's doing one think Crede isn't...getting on base. That's what it's all about. There's no doubt Uribe will cool off, but until then make him the everyday third baseman.

2. Trade Lee. Ordonez is the best overall player on the team. Thomas is way too valuable to trade with an OBP above .450. Crede is young and cheap and has upside. PK is untradeable. Thawt leaves Lee. As much as I'm thrilled that his walks are up and K's are down, he can bring in a good starting pitcher.

I think the Sox offense would be improved with a batting order of:

Harris
Uribe
Ordonez
Thomas
Valentin
Reed
Konerko
Rowand
Olivo

The last thing this team needs is another right handed power hitter. They need players who strike out less, have the ability to bunt, and who most importantly can get on base.


Bob
I agree with trading lee, but I'd love to see willie in center and keep crede in the lineup and put a lineup out there like this:

willie cf
uribe 2b
maggs rf
thomas dh
jose ss
pk 1b
reed lf
crede 3b
olivo c

Lip Man 1
05-14-2004, 11:25 PM
Sox are now 10-5 in games where they hold the opponent to three runs or less. Don't know how that compares to other teams in the league.

Lip

batmanZoSo
05-14-2004, 11:25 PM
Originally posted by gosox41
I'll probably get ripped for this, but I don't care. The more I think about this team's offensive the more aggravated I get. Sure things are great when everyone's hitting and they score 15 runs a game, but what good does it do you when you lose the very next game 1-0 only to lose the next day and score a whopping 2 runs. The pitching has kept the Sox in the last 4 games and all they have to show for it is a 2-2 record.

If someone told me ahead of time that the Twins would score a total of 3 runs tongiht or the Orioles would score 1 run I'd assume the Sox would win both those games.

Which leads me to my point. The Sox have 5 very similar hitters in the line up: Lee, Ordonez, Thomas, Konerko, and Crede. Each one brings a little something different to the table like Magglio's ability to hit for average and power or Frank's uncanny to get on base a ton or Lee's ability to steal bases. I don't know what PK brings other then a big contract. And Crede is cheap. But these guys are prettu much the same. and there needs to be changes. The problem is it tends to be all or nothing withr this team. Sure the Sox have power, but how many solo home runs can you hit? All 5 of those guys seem to have major deficiencies in the ability to manufacture runs. Is it any wonder that PK and Ordonez are 1-2 in GIDP's over a 3 year time period. It's not coincidence.

IMHO, it's time for KW to shake up the team and get those grinders he keeps talking about. The formula of having a team that is capable of hitting 200+ HR's isn't working. Power comes in spurts but can also leave quickly/

After looking at these 5 guys I would consider making 2 changes:

1. Bench Crede. I like the guy, but enough is enough. It's time to produce. Put Uribe out there everyday. He's doing one think Crede isn't...getting on base. That's what it's all about. There's no doubt Uribe will cool off, but until then make him the everyday third baseman.

2. Trade Lee. Ordonez is the best overall player on the team. Thomas is way too valuable to trade with an OBP above .450. Crede is young and cheap and has upside. PK is untradeable. Thawt leaves Lee. As much as I'm thrilled that his walks are up and K's are down, he can bring in a good starting pitcher.

I think the Sox offense would be improved with a batting order of:

Harris
Uribe
Ordonez
Thomas
Valentin
Reed
Konerko
Rowand
Olivo

The last thing this team needs is another right handed power hitter. They need players who strike out less, have the ability to bunt, and who most importantly can get on base.


Bob

Point one I totally disagree with.

Point two I totally agree with.

We really need to shake up this team bad.



Let's have this lineup.

Pierre
Reed
Thomas
Ordonez
Vidro
Uribe
Konerko
Crede
Olivo

Garcia
Buehrle
Loaiza
Schoeneweis
Garland

Pen:

Guardado
Marte
Shingo
Adkins
and yada yada yada

Let's go all the way.

OEO Magglio
05-14-2004, 11:30 PM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo




Let's have this lineup.

Pierre
Reed
Thomas
Ordonez
Vidro
Uribe
Konerko
Crede
Olivo

Garcia
Buehrle
Loaiza
Schoeneweis
Garland

Pen:

Guardado
Marte
Shingo
Adkins
and yada yada yada

Let's go all the way. [/B]
Why isn't that in deep pink?

gosox41
05-14-2004, 11:36 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Sox are now 10-5 in games where they hold the opponent to three runs or less. Don't know how that compares to other teams in the league.

Lip

I don't know where it falls, but it's a credit to Sox pitching that in 15 of 35 games the Sox have been in a game that should have been won.

Maybe the question should be looked at in a different angle: If some one told you before the season started the Sox were going to give up 3 runs every 9 innings played, how many games would you expect this team to win?


I would say between 85-90%. But 15 games is hardly a fair sample size and it's late and I'm too tired to look up where other teams fall in this category.


Bob

LauraJ14
05-15-2004, 07:46 AM
What is the job of the cleanup hitter? Is it to walk or is it to drive in runs? I would really like Frank to walk less and drive the ball.
We seem to be singles or Homeruns, nothing else.

PaleHoseGeorge
05-15-2004, 08:03 AM
Originally posted by LauraJ14
What is the job of the cleanup hitter? Is it to walk or is it to drive in runs? I would really like Frank to walk less and drive the ball.
We seem to be singles or Homeruns, nothing else.

His job is to make sure the #3 hitter gets better pitches to see. So far it's working, however Maggs isn't batting with men on base as often as a #3 hitter ought to. That's the fault of our leadoff man and #2 hitter.

As for Frank's walks batting #4, you need look no further than the pathetic production from Lee and Konerko to understand why every pitcher in the league simply throws around Frank and takes their chances pitching to the two most overpaid ballplayers on the team.

Frank Thomas is a lot less dangerous standing on first base after watching ball four go by than standing at homeplate with a bat in his hands. Once KW and Ozzie get somebody to hit behind Frank, your problem with Frank walking too much will finally be solved.

Meanwhile, piss about Lee and Konerko because they deserve the blame. Just ask any opposition pitcher or manager.

Kroozah
05-15-2004, 08:03 AM
shake up the team? where just a few days ago, most everyone was talking about how the offensive finally exploded.

gosox41
05-15-2004, 11:18 AM
Originally posted by Kroozah
shake up the team? where just a few days ago, most everyone was talking about how the offensive finally exploded.

Not me. I've been down on this team since the end of last season. KW's failure to make any positive significant changes in the offseason didn't help.

I stand by my 78 win prediction. The only way I'll change that is if the Sox make a significant acquisition because they're able to hand around the Twins until June/July.


Bob

Deadguy
05-15-2004, 11:25 AM
Originally posted by LauraJ14
What is the job of the cleanup hitter? Is it to walk or is it to drive in runs? I would really like Frank to walk less and drive the ball.
We seem to be singles or Homeruns, nothing else.

If Thomas gets on base 3 times in a game, then he is doing his job. If you want him to swing wildly and strike out 150 times a year, then you are out of your mind. Thomas has an uncanny eye at the plate that has only been matched by a handful of guys who have ever played the game. He's had this apporach at the plate since he was 22, and isn't going to change now.

We need more guys like Thomas, not less. Obviously opposing team's scouts, managers, and pitchers know that the offense can be shut down if you just pitch around Thomas, since the two-headed monster that is Koner-Lee just isn't getting the job done. Their OPS's are pathetic (.749 and .748). It's no longer 1999, and it is time for these two to step up, and make the opposing pitchers pay for walking Thomas, otherwise they are just going to keep pitching around FT.

gosox41
05-15-2004, 11:26 AM
Originally posted by LauraJ14
What is the job of the cleanup hitter? Is it to walk or is it to drive in runs? I would really like Frank to walk less and drive the ball.
We seem to be singles or Homeruns, nothing else.

I love players who have the ability to walk a lot. Getting on base is the whole key to helping an offense score runs. I wish other players on this team had the ability of Frank's to work a count and see everything in a pitcher's aresenal and raise his pitch count early. Instead we have a bunch of hackers. The 8th inning of last night's game is a perfect example. Frank gets on. And the big boppers behind him (Lee and PK) whiff chasing fastballs out of the strike zone. I could have sworn the last pitch PK swung at was almost in the left handed batter's box.

Now maybe Frank isn't batting in the right spot in the order. That I could debate. I can see doing a couple of things with Frank:

1. Moving him back to #3 in the batting order. Magglio has proven in the past that he can hit decently with an ice cold PK and Lee behind him. Frank will get on base more for Magglio to drve him in since he seems to be the only one on the team any good at it. This also allows Lee to benefit by having Frank's protection.

2. Move Frank to 5th. This is the worst idea sicne you need productinve players to come up more often, not less. But having Lee sandwiched between Ordonez and Thomas will give pitchers something to think about.

3. Move Frank to #2 in the batting order. Again, he's productive so he should be batting as much as possible. He's too slow to be a lead off hitter. Harris will hit better (or maintain this hot streak longer) if Thomas is there right behind him. Again Magglio will have more at bats with men on base.

I suggsted option 3 last year and it was actually tried for one game.

But overall I have no problem with Frank taking walks. Why get yourself out by swining at bad pitches. It's not Frank's fault that Lee and Konerko aren't doing their jobs.



Bob

Deadguy
05-15-2004, 11:33 AM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
[B
Frank Thomas is a lot less dangerous standing on first base after watching ball four go by than standing at homeplate with a bat in his hands. Once KW and Ozzie get somebody to hit behind Frank, your problem with Frank walking too much will finally be solved.

Meanwhile, piss about Lee and Konerko because they deserve the blame. Just ask any opposition pitcher or manager. [/B]

Excellent points. We need someone like Albert Belle in 1998 to make opposing pitchers pay for walking Thomas, not a couple of choking scum bags like Konerko and Lee.

It is unfortunate that Thomas' OBP isn't the asset to this team that it should be. In this lineup it is just not working, which is part of the reason Thomas changed his approach last August, under the basis that his walks weren't resulting in runs scored.

But runs scored is just a team based stat. Thomas scored 110 runs in 1997 with an OBP of .456. The next season Thomas' OBP dropped to .381, yet he still scored 109 runs. Did Thomas simply become a better baserunner in 1998? Did he just gain speeed and agility, or did he score nearly as many runs because the guys behind him were finally driving him in?

Konerko and Lee need to step it up. They are no longer in their early 20s and making the league minimum. They are veterans and need to make opposing teams pay for walking Thomas, otherwise Thomas will walk 150+ times this year.

LauraJ14
05-16-2004, 10:59 PM
My question about what the cleanup hitter should be doing wasn't a slam against Frank. But his batting average is at .250 and I think that Konerko has more runs batted in than Frank does this season. When the Sox don't score runs, its not always one player's fault as many of you like to blame. Its a team effort and a lot of what we have seen this season is the same stuff we have seen under a different manager and 3 different hitting coachs.

JohnBasedowYoda
05-16-2004, 11:15 PM
let's give the line-up ozzie started todays game with a shot

Voice of Reason
05-16-2004, 11:51 PM
Originally posted by JohnBasedowYoda
let's give the line-up ozzie started todays game with a shot

In a best case scenario Rowand should still start against lefties, hitting lefties is the one thing the guy can do without much question. However we really need another bat against right handed pitching. Joe Crede, the Out Corner, especially isn't helping us.

gosox41
05-17-2004, 07:06 AM
Originally posted by LauraJ14
My question about what the cleanup hitter should be doing wasn't a slam against Frank. But his batting average is at .250 and I think that Konerko has more runs batted in than Frank does this season. When the Sox don't score runs, its not always one player's fault as many of you like to blame. Its a team effort and a lot of what we have seen this season is the same stuff we have seen under a different manager and 3 different hitting coachs.

PK probably has more RBI's bevcause he has both Magglio and Frank hitting in front of him.

RBI's are a misunderstood stat. THey measure productivity but are only as good as those hitting around in fornt of you get on base.

The whole game is based on getting on base. It's the most efficient way to maxcimize offense.


Bob

Frater Perdurabo
05-17-2004, 09:53 AM
If Maggs and Frank are the most productive players in the lineup, then the offense should be built around them.

What the Sox need more than anything is some left-handed pop in the #5 hole behind Maggs and Frank. This hitter does not have to hit 50 homers, but he does need to be able to hit lots of doubles into the gaps and have an ability to hit the ball to the right side of the field, which would allow the slow-footed Frank to take two bases on a single or three bases on a double.

Having two right-handed pull hitters in Lee and Konerko batting behind Frank greatly diminishes Frank's value in taking so many walks. Lee and Konerko make too many outs. If I were the GM, I would be willing to trade both Lee and Konerko to get one left-handed hitter who could hit for a decent average with some pop.

Frank had his best season in 1994, when he batted in front of Julio Franco. While Franco was right-handed, IIRC he would and could hit to the opposite field. Franco did not have a ton of power, but he did advance Frank which pushed lots of runs across the plate. Not coincidentally, that was the best White Sox team most of us had ever seen.