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HomerCoach
05-14-2004, 12:22 PM
Move Frank back to the 3 Hole. This would result in Lee seeing more fastballs, and Frank being thrown strikes, and ultimately, runners on base for Maggs.

Harris CF
Lee LF
Frank DH
Maggs RF
Uribe 2B
Konerko 1B
Valentin SS
Crede 3B
Olivo C

WWIII
05-14-2004, 12:25 PM
I would say it's worth a try, but is the series against the Twinkies the best time to be further tinkering? We need a sweep to set the tome for the rest of the series'.

pjthesox13
05-14-2004, 12:29 PM
Originally posted by HomerCoach
Move Frank back to the 3 Hole. This would result in Lee seeing more fastballs, and Frank being thrown strikes, and ultimately, runners on base for Maggs.

Harris CF
Lee LF
Frank DH
Maggs RF
Uribe 2B
Konerko 1B
Valentin SS
Crede 3B
Olivo C

I do like this lineup but don't know how much Harris will be playing CF though.

sas1974
05-14-2004, 12:39 PM
While I like Lee in the 2 spot, I think Frank should reamain batting cleanup. I recall a couple of times this season where Maggs scored from first or second on a hit by Frank. Frank would not have been able to do the same if he was the one on base w/ Maggs hitting.

Until there is someone that can bat 5th and instill some fear in a pitcher, look for whomever is batting 4th to continue to get a ton of free passes. Hopefully Paulie can feed off of yesterday's game and Frank will get some pitches to hit. If that doesn't happen soon, Frank is going to start getting impatient and expanding the zone, like he did on Tuesday with his bid for a nice, shiney golden sombrero. Of course we know instead of getting a new hat, he deposited a pitch into the 410 feet into the seats, but it was down in the zone and he had to go get it.

TheBull19
05-14-2004, 12:48 PM
The problem with that is, yeah, Thomas gets on base, but he doesn't score when he does. Last year he only scored 45 times when reaching w/o a homer, which happened 204 times. He's just too slow slow to score from 1st on a double or from second on a lot of singles. By comparison, Uribe scored 35 times when reaching w/o a homer 87 times last year, and that was hitting primarily towards the bottom of the order. Maggs scored 56 times out of 220, and that percentage should be higher w/ thomas behind him. Yeah, Lee will get more fastballs hitting in front of Thomas, but so will Maggs. How's Maggs going to be pitched to if Konerko or Valentin's hitting behind him? Maggs is our best hitter nowadays and has much more speed than Thomas. Obviously, he should be our #3 hitter. Uribe and Harris will score more times per time they reach base than anyone else in the lineup, so even if they get on base a little bit less than others(that hasn't even been the case so far) they should be at the top of the lineup. Besides that, Lee is our only reliable(or semi-reliable, depending on your viewpoint) run producer after Maggs and Thomas, so he should be batting in a run producer spot, and protecting the cleanup hitter, even if his average suffers as a result.

TheBull19
05-14-2004, 12:52 PM
Harris 2b
Uribe SS
Maggs Rf
Thomas DH/1b
Lee Lf
Konerko 1b/Valentin DH
Crede 3b
Olivo C
Rowand/Perez/Reed(hopefully) CF

PaleHoseGeorge
05-14-2004, 01:49 PM
Originally posted by HomerCoach
Move Frank back to the 3 Hole. This would result in Lee seeing more fastballs, and Frank being thrown strikes, and ultimately, runners on base for Maggs.

Harris CF
Lee LF
Frank DH
Maggs RF
Uribe 2B
Konerko 1B
Valentin SS
Crede 3B
Olivo C

The middle of your line up looks suspiciously similar to the one Jerry Manuel finally settled on in late-July last year. Not coincidentally, that's when the team started playing well and made its surge to finally reach first place. Then something happened that only Sox Fans could have predicted.

:jerry
*tinker* *tinker* *tinker*

Cotts in NYC... Paniaqua's bullpen audition against our closest rival... say "Hello" to another second-place finish.

With six weeks played in the 2004 season, one thing is certain. There isn't a pitcher in the American League stupid enough to pitch to Frank Thomas unless Ozzie figures out a way to get a decent bat behind him in the line up.

maurice
05-14-2004, 02:49 PM
People really need to stop complaining that Frank's OBP doesn't translate into runs scored. No matter what Harold Reynolds thinks, it's no coincidence that Frank leads the team in OBP and runs scored. Heck, he's scored 100+ runs nine times. Given the lack of production from the players batting behind him, it's a minor miracle that Frank scores as often as he does.

Until Harris and/or Uribe cool off, my lineup would be:

Harris
Lee
Ordonez
Thomas
Uribe
Valentin / Konerko
Crede
Reed
Olivo

TheBull19
05-14-2004, 03:31 PM
Originally posted by maurice
it's no coincidence that Frank leads the team in OBP and runs scored.

Thomas hasn't lead the Sox in runs scored since '97. Last year he scored 83 times, 42 on his own homeruns. That's w/ a guy who's averaged 118 rbi the last 5 years hitting behind him. Before that he scored 77. I'm not saying that back in '96 he shouldn't have been hitting 3rd. I'm talking about now. Maggs is the best hitter we have right now. He has more speed than thomas. He will score more runs than thomas batting 3rd. He already scored 47 more runs than thomas the last 2 years, with a lower obp and w/o thomas hitting behind him. If he has Thomas and Lee hitting behind him he will score even more runs. Uribe and Ordonez, or Lee and Ordonez would score more runs hitting in front of Thomas, but Lee is the only guy we have who can offer any protection to Thomas in the 5th hole. If you're such a believer in numbers that your in love w/ obp so much then you should be able to analyse those numbers and see the sox will score the most runs w/ maggs hitting 3rd and thomas 4th. Besides isn't it just common sense to have your best hitter batting 3rd?

jackbrohamer
05-14-2004, 04:29 PM
Originally posted by maurice
People really need to stop complaining that Frank's OBP doesn't translate into runs scored.

Absolutely. Frank's taken crap his whole career about taking too many walks, but his patience has always made him a better hitter.

TheBull19
05-14-2004, 04:43 PM
Originally posted by jackbrohamer
Absolutely. Frank's taken crap his whole career about taking too many walks, but his patience has always made him a better hitter.

I wasn't giving him crap for it, I was just arguing why the sox would score more runs w/ maggs hitting 3rd and uribe 2nd.
I'm not gonna sit here and degrade what Frank's done. He's an all-time great, but right now I think Magg's is going to score more runs being driven in by Frank than vice versa. Right now Maggs is our best hitter. I'm not talking about running Thomas out of town or arguing that he needs to change his approach!

maurice
05-14-2004, 05:14 PM
Originally posted by TheBull19
Thomas hasn't lead the Sox in runs scored since '97.

He's leading them in runs scored RIGHT NOW. Not bad for a cleanup hitter. Maggs had a down year last season, or Frank would have scored even more. Teams regularly walked Frank to get to Maggs. With that option eliminated, Maggs has been much more productive.

As for the rest of your post, I have no idea who you're arguing against. My proposed lineup leaves Maggs 3rd and Frank cleanup. CLee is providing little to no protection for Frank at the moment. While batting second last season, Lee was the most productive player on the team . . . not so when he batted down in the lineup. It's good that Ozzie finally noticed that and put him back in the two hole where he belongs.

TheBull19
05-14-2004, 05:36 PM
My original post was in response to the thread starter, I guess I kind of unintentionally merged my arguments when I responded to yours. I like Uribe batting 2nd better though. Lee may not hit as well but I think the lineup overall is better that way. I doubt Uribe'll be able to protect him better than Lee. My main concern though is Uribe staying in the lineup, I don't want valentin pushing him out, that's for sure.

I actually wouldn't mind seeing Konerko benched all together - move Thomas to 1st - valentin batting 5th at DH - and lee moved down to 6th where he can still rake in Thomas after he walks 130 times this year, and not have so much pressure on him in the lineup as he would batting 5th.

I have to disagree w/ your assessment on ordonez' season - maggs hit .317 w/ 46 doubles and 29 homers - he's been a huge rbi guy in the past. If anything I think his relative lack of rbi's had more to do w/ bad baserunning in front of him, which is the main reason I like harris-uribe-maggs at the top - thomas and lee should benefit from having those guys on base.

PaleHoseGeorge
05-14-2004, 06:36 PM
Originally posted by TheBull19
....I have to disagree w/ your assessment on ordonez' season - maggs hit .317 w/ 46 doubles and 29 homers - he's been a huge rbi guy in the past. If anything I think his relative lack of rbi's had more to do w/ bad baserunning in front of him, which is the main reason I like harris-uribe-maggs at the top - thomas and lee should benefit from having those guys on base.

Did I read this right? You think the reason Maggs' production was down was because of bad baserunning in front of him?

*****!

Not even Rickey Henderson or Lou Brock could have made it to second base in time to break up all those 6-4-3 double plays Magglio specialized in grounding into more than anybody in MLB this side of Paul Konerko last season.

Un-****ing-believable how far some people will go to defend Ordonez. This has to be the dumbest argument I've heard yet. Thomas and Lee made Magglio hit all those ground balls on the left side of the diamond...

TheBull19
05-14-2004, 07:16 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge


Un-****ing-believable how far some people will go to defend Ordonez. This has to be the dumbest argument I've heard yet. Thomas and Lee made Magglio hit all those ground balls on the left side of the diamond...

First of all, as a sox fan I'm surprised you would have the mindset that Maggs would even need to defended. What more does the guy have to do? Secondly, your GIDP theory is even dumber.
Last Maggs hit into 20 DP and drove in 99. Do really think 20 DP out of 600+ PA makes that much of a difference? If you drive in 150 rbi's out of 600 PA that's an average of 1 every 4 PA. So that's a difference of 5 for those 20 ABs. If the average hitter hits into 8 DP in the same amount of PA as Maggs, that narrows it down to 3 rbi. So according to your reasoning he would have had 102 RBI if he hadn't of grounded into so many double plays. But in 2000 Maggs hit into 28 DP and drove in 126. Yeah, all those DP's really prevented him in driving them home that year. Now, you don't think out of those 600 odd PA Ordonez did have he might not have driven in, say 15-25 more runs if he had runners in front of him that could score from 1st, that took the extra-base or didn't cause an out by poor baserunning or general slowness? You think its a coincidence that, while otherwise putting up similar numbers his rbi's declined after having the likes of lofton and durham in the lineup in 2002, and durham, singleton, and a relatively ham-string-problem-free valentin in the lineup in front of him before that to be replaced by much worse baserunners? Or that now that he has harris and uribe batting in front of him he's raking them in by the boatload again?
I don't think that's such an "un****ing believable" theory to qualify as the dumbest argument you've ever read, you must proof-read afterall.

And BTW, do you just run this sight so you can pop up to insult people from time to time?

RKMeibalane
05-14-2004, 07:22 PM
Originally posted by TheBull19
And BTW, do you just run this sight so you can pop up to insult people from time to time?

Uncalled for. PHG and other mods of this site work extremely hard to give Sox fans a place to hang out and talk baseball. If PHG's disagreeing with you is a problem, there are other Sox web-sites you can visit. Otherwise, I would refrain form attacking the powers that be at WSI. Doing so will only get you banned.

bigdommer
05-14-2004, 07:24 PM
Just in case you were wondering, tonight's lineup is:

Harris
Jose
Maggs
Frank
Carlos
Paulie
Crede
Rowand
Alomar

I wish Uribe was playing...but Jose plays well against the Twinkies, and this series is going to be a battle.

TheBull19
05-14-2004, 07:27 PM
Well, usually when someone responds to an at least somewhat reasonable theory w/ "un****believable" and "dumbest argument I ever heard" I find that to be an insult. I don't like to be insulted and if objecting to said insult is considered an attack, I sincerely apologize.

I certainly don't consider a disagreement an insult and I don't believe that I implied that I did.

PaleHoseGeorge
05-14-2004, 07:34 PM
Originally posted by TheBull19
First of all, as a sox fan I'm surprised you would have the mindset that Maggs would even need to defended. What more does the guy have to do? Secondly, your GIDP theory is even dumber.
Last Maggs hit into 20 DP and drove in 99. Do really think 20 DP out of 600+ PA makes that much of a difference? If you drive in 150 rbi's out of 600 PA that's an average of 1 every 4 PA. So that's a difference of 5 for those 20 ABs. If the average hitter hits into 8 DP in the same amount of PA as Maggs, that narrows it down to 3 rbi. So according to your reasoning he would have had 102 RBI if he hadn't of grounded into so many double plays. But in 2000 Maggs hit into 28 DP and drove in 126. Yeah, all those DP's really prevented him in driving them home that year. Now, you don't think out of those 600 odd PA Ordonez did have he might not have driven in, say 15-25 more runs if he had runners in front of him that could score from 1st, that took the extra-base or didn't cause an out by poor baserunning or general slowness? You think its a coincidence that, while otherwise putting up similar numbers his rbi's declined after having the likes of lofton and durham in the lineup in 2002, and durham, singleton, and a relatively ham-string-problem-free valentin in the lineup in front of him before that to be replaced by much worse baserunners? Or that now that he has harris and uribe batting in front of him he's raking them in by the boatload again?
I don't think that's such an "un****ing believable" theory to qualify as the dumbest argument you've ever read, you must proof-read afterall.

And BTW, do you just run this sight so you can pop up to insult people from time to time?

Oh, I'm sorry. I had this mistakened notion that GIDP was a reflection on the hitter, not the baserunners. Clearly Magglio is an outstanding situational hitter and merely aimed those batted balls to the left-side of the infield where careless baserunners were simply too incompetent to reach the next base safely. Magglio is the consummate "grinder" KW is seeking, the living embodiment of Ozzie ball. One swing of the bat, two outs. Rally over.

Konerko, Ordonez, and Lee all made the league's top-20 in this category last year... but that isn't Ordonez's fault... just Lee's... and Thomas's, of course... lousy baserunners that they are.

Hmm, mmm... yes, definitely.

TheBull19
05-14-2004, 07:43 PM
I'm not sure where you got the idea I said that baserunners caused him to hit into the 20 dp's he hit into last year. I said baserunning may have contributed to the difference in his rbi production since he had poorer baserunners in front of him than he has in the past and his numbers were otherwise similar to when he was driving in 120-135(inluding hitting into 20+ DPs). Now that he has better base runners in front of him again he is driving in runs like in the past which further supports my theory.

PaleHoseGeorge
05-14-2004, 07:45 PM
Originally posted by TheBull19
Well, usually when someone responds to an at least somewhat reasonable theory w/ "un****believable" and "dumbest argument I ever heard" I find that to be an insult. I don't like to be insulted and if objecting to said insult is considered an attack, I sincerely apologize.

I certainly don't consider a disagreement an insult and I don't believe that I implied that I did.

Generally speaking, words have meaning though not necessarily if the writer is speaking "colloquially." So be assured when I stated "this has to be the dumbest argument I've heard yet," it was the argument I was insulting not the poster. To insult the poster I would have written "this is the dumbest poster I've seen post yet." I frown on speaking colloquially precisely because it leads to silly misunderstandings about true meaning. It's also a convenient cope out for people who are too ham-handed to use the language properly.

This is a written forum. Nobody is having a "conversation" unless they are too lazy (or incompetent) to clean up their stream-of-conscience ideas. Last I checked, everything here is typed, not spoken.

Now go on with your bad self.

PaleHoseGeorge
05-14-2004, 07:49 PM
Originally posted by TheBull19
I'm not sure where you got the idea I said that baserunners caused him to hit into the 20 dp's he hit into last year. I said baserunning may have contributed to the difference in his rbi production since he had poorer baserunners in front of him than he has in the past and his numbers were otherwise similar to when he was driving in 120-135(inluding hitting into 20+ DPs). Now that he has better base runners in front of him again he is driving in runs like in the past which further supports my theory.

Well gosh, this is easy to check. Here is precisely what you wrote:
I have to disagree w/ your assessment on ordonez' season - maggs hit .317 w/ 46 doubles and 29 homers - he's been a huge rbi guy in the past. If anything I think his relative lack of rbi's had more to do w/ bad baserunning in front of him, which is the main reason I like harris-uribe-maggs at the top - thomas and lee should benefit from having those guys on base.

You named Thomas and Lee as the culprits for Maggs' "relative lack of rbi's."

Pretty silly, don't you think? Or are you suggesting Maggs would hit better if the bases were empty? That might be even sillier.

TheBull19
05-14-2004, 07:54 PM
A person is little more than his ideas so if you insult a person's ideas you can't help but insult the person. That said, I didn't really take it that personally, I just like to fire back if someone's giving me guff. Your site's the bomb and I don't want p*** anyone off - too much anyway! Anyways, thanks for the great site and maybe we'll argue again sometime. I'm sticking to my theory by the way, no matter how many DP's he hits into!

TheBull19
05-14-2004, 07:55 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Well gosh, this is easy to check. Here is precisely what you wrote:


You named Thomas and Lee as the culprits for Maggs' "relative lack of rbi's."

Pretty silly, don't you think? Or are you suggesting Maggs would hit better if the bases were empty? That might be even sillier.

I still don't see where I said anything about DPs - and no I'm not saying he would hit better if the bases were empty, I'm saying he'd drive in more runs if the guys on base in front of him were better baserunners.

PaleHoseGeorge
05-14-2004, 08:06 PM
Originally posted by TheBull19
A person is little more than his ideas so if you insult a person's ideas you can't help but insult the person. That said, I didn't really take it that personally, I just like to fire back if someone's giving me guff. Your site's the bomb and I don't want p*** anyone off - too much anyway! Anyways, thanks for the great site and maybe we'll argue again sometime. I'm sticking to my theory by the way, no matter how many DP's he hits into!

That's not true. Anyone would recognize precise usage as good grammer, and imprecise usage as bad grammer. For example, using the imprecise term "dumb" is bad grammer when the more descriptive term "irrational" fits the meaning better. Such laziness and incompetence leads to the same sort of unrelenting stupidity that regularly gets aired on sportsblab radio.

At least they have an excuse. After all, everyone on sportsblab radio is *speaking* into a microphone or telephone. They hear and react with words almost instantaneously. What excuse can anyone possibly make for posters who think it is okay to type the same level of drivel into their computer?

I hope there aren't any hard feelings. I seriously was not aiming anything at you personally.

TheBull19
05-14-2004, 08:10 PM
No, there's no hard feelings at all - but I just can't believe you won't admit that maybe - just possibly - ordonez might have driven in a couple more runs with better baserunners in front him, especially considering his past production. I mean I've got to defend a guy who's driven as many runs in as Maggs has? If Maggs can't cut it for you, it must drive you crazy to be a sox fan.

PaleHoseGeorge
05-14-2004, 08:13 PM
Originally posted by TheBull19
No, there's no hard feelings at all - but I just can't believe you won't admit that maybe - just possibly - ordonez might have driven in a couple more runs with better baserunners in front him, especially considering his past production. I mean I've got to defend a guy who's driven as many runs in as Maggs has? If Maggs can't cut it for you, it must drive you crazy to be a sox fan.

I'm a Sox Fan. I thought being crazy was a requirement.

:smile:

TheBull19
05-14-2004, 08:16 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
I'm a Sox Fan. I thought being crazy was a requirement.

:smile:

lol