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View Full Version : What does Garland do to get guys out?


jeremyb1
05-13-2004, 03:05 PM
I love Jon Garland, he's one of my favorite players but his last few starts I've had a dissapointing revelation. He doens't really do anything all that well. He doesn't K many guys with only about 5 per 9 innings. He seems to command his pitches well at times but his BB totals are always somewhat high. With all the raves about his power sinker he doesn't induce all that many groundballs. His G/FB ratio has never been higher than 1.46. Guys like Lowe (3.47 career G/FB), Brown (2.73), and Webb (3.48) induce many more ground balls. Garland's stuff seems good enough that he should be able to strike out more hitters. I'm not sure why he doesn't.

poorme
05-13-2004, 03:15 PM
I dunno. His pitches all look the same to me.

hold2dibber
05-13-2004, 03:25 PM
I wonder if we all simply have had inflated expectations about Garland; this may have been fueled by some great success he had in the minors just before he came up in 2000 or by the fact that he does appear dominating on occassion. But as Jeremy points out, he doesn't have the underlying numbers that would suggest that he is on the cusp of greatness. With that said, I have seen enough great outings (or at least great extended stretches during the course of games) to make me believe that it is not impossible that he could turn the corner and become a top of the rotation kind of guy. But I'm not sure how or why he would do so.

poorme
05-13-2004, 03:32 PM
What's his #2 pitch?

jeremyb1
05-13-2004, 04:16 PM
Originally posted by poorme
What's his #2 pitch?

Curveball. He mostly just throws his power sinker and his curve with a few changeups and sliders mixed in there.

chidonez
05-13-2004, 04:17 PM
He looks pretty good to me -- gave the team a chance to win today.

SoxxoS
05-13-2004, 04:19 PM
Garland is a good #3 pitcher, as he keeps us in games nearly every time out. He will throw a jem every once in a while.

He is, however, the worst pitcher I have ever seen with 2 strikes. The pitches he throws on 0-2 are just not good enough to get a swing and a miss, the batter fouls the ball off. Then, he tries to get cute eventually, gets most of the plate, and the guy hits it hard somewhere.

If he learns how to throw with 2 strikes, he is going to be dangerous.

bigdommer
05-13-2004, 04:50 PM
I agree with SoxxoS. He is a #3 pitcher. I guess he is a #4 on our staff. Who knows? But I do think he is an above average #4 pitcher compared to most staffs. He's not as good as a Zambrano, Wade Miller, Wakefield...but you can probably stack him up against the rest of the #4's in the league.

He pitched very well today without his best stuff, and Carlos, Paulie, and Co. hung him out to dry. Thanks guys.

SoxFan76
05-13-2004, 09:32 PM
I think our expectations are way too high. He isn't cut out to be an ace, but I do think Cotts can be an ace in his career.

Garland is solid. He can keep you in the game. Toronto, believe it or not, he only gave up 4 runs. This offense SHOULD be able to score 5 runs with their eyes closed, unfortunately, it didn't work out that way. He is a decent number 3, and a solid number 4 starter. Once again, he can get the job done while occasionally piching a great game.

His sinker alone should be able to get him out of jams. Men on 3rd, less than 2 outs, you don't really want a flyball pitcher in there. He is capable of throwing the double play ball as well. It's good to keep the ball on the ground, makes it harder to hit over the fence.

delben91
05-13-2004, 09:57 PM
The man pitches 7 innings of shut-out ball and we have a thread questioning how he does it?

Buehrle did the same thing Monday night and all people could do was rave about his performance.

I just don't get it.

TornLabrum
05-13-2004, 10:22 PM
Unbelievable! All I can say is...

:threadsucks

SoxFan76
05-13-2004, 10:31 PM
Originally posted by delben91
The man pitches 7 innings of shut-out ball and we have a thread questioning how he does it?

Buehrle did the same thing Monday night and all people could do was rave about his performance.

I just don't get it.

This was a great game for big Jon, but he won't throw like this every start. It's like people going nuts over Paulie's 5 RBI today. Sure, it's great. But he's not going to hit 5 RBI in every game for the rest of the year.

batmanZoSo
05-13-2004, 10:33 PM
Originally posted by poorme
I dunno. His pitches all look the same to me.

I agree. I can only distinguish--fastball....everything else.

I don't know how he gets guys out, everything seems to flutter up there. But he does.

jeremyb1
05-14-2004, 12:03 AM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
Unbelievable! All I can say is...

:threadsucks

I'm trying to raise a serious question here. The fact that a pitcher had seven good innings or even 6 good starts doesn't mean that he's a great pitcher or that his success is easily repeatable. If it were up to me I would get rid of the "this thread sucks" tag. It seems to me it is only used in lieu of a serious, thought out response to threads. I'm sorry but you're opinion is completely worthless to me unless you can at least attempt to support it.

delben91
05-14-2004, 12:08 AM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
I'm trying to raise a serious question here. The fact that a pitcher had seven good innings or even 6 good starts doesn't mean that he's a great pitcher or that his success is easily repeatable. If it were up to me I would get rid of the "this thread sucks" tag. It seems to me it is only used in lieu of a serious, thought out response to threads. I'm sorry but you're opinion is completely worthless to me unless you can at least attempt to support it.

My thoughts are merely that it doesn't matter to me how Garland gets guys out, merely that he does. The same has been relatively true with Buehrle all along. Mark isn't over-powering, and to my knowledge doesn't have a quintessential "out pitch." His claim to success was always impeccable control.

Now Garland's control isn't amazing by any stretch, but this year it has been good to quite good from what I've been able to "see" watching the games over a gamecast online. He too isn't over-powering and doesn't have an "out pitch." So long as he's effective though, anything in the same ballpark as the outing he gave today, then it doesn't much matter to me how he does it, merely that he does do it.

Voice of Reason
05-14-2004, 12:23 AM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
I'm trying to raise a serious question here. The fact that a pitcher had seven good innings or even 6 good starts doesn't mean that he's a great pitcher or that his success is easily repeatable. If it were up to me I would get rid of the "this thread sucks" tag. It seems to me it is only used in lieu of a serious, thought out response to threads. I'm sorry but you're opinion is completely worthless to me unless you can at least attempt to support it.

I've noticed there is a rule here, that if a player has a good day you're not allowed to say anything bad about him because upon that nice performance he becomes a saint and remains a saint up until the point he proves he is no longer a saint by striking out or allowing a couple runs in an inning. The same goes for a player who had a bad day, you could get banned for saying that maybe we should just let Carlos Lee's 0-4 day slide because he has been productive in the past. A player is only as good as today's game. I'm surprised no one is calling for Frank Thomas' head. Where are you Bc2k?

southpaw40
05-14-2004, 08:57 AM
Seems to me like JG could use the high-in-the-zone 4 seam fastball to offset his power sinker when he has two strikes on the batter. I know his strength is the sinker, but is it good enough to go to constantly? I've seen him at 94MPH before, which is plenty good enough. This would be a way to keep the hitter from getting comfortable while he looks low in the zone all the time, and I think it's pretty well documented that it's hard to lay off the high hard one.
Just my thought.

poorme
05-14-2004, 09:17 AM
Originally posted by southpaw40
Seems to me like JG could use the high-in-the-zone 4 seam fastball to offset his power sinker when he has two strikes on the batter. I know his strength is the sinker, but is it good enough to go to constantly? I've seen him at 94MPH before, which is plenty good enough. This would be a way to keep the hitter from getting comfortable while he looks low in the zone all the time, and I think it's pretty well documented that it's hard to lay off the high hard one.
Just my thought.

I'd say you were a genious, but it shouldn't take a genious to figure that out.

The Big Squirt
05-14-2004, 10:00 AM
What he does is throws that HEAVY sinker that gets double plays and gets him out of jams. That thing drops like a bowling ball.

jeremyb1
05-14-2004, 02:08 PM
Originally posted by southpaw40
Seems to me like JG could use the high-in-the-zone 4 seam fastball to offset his power sinker when he has two strikes on the batter. I know his strength is the sinker, but is it good enough to go to constantly? I've seen him at 94MPH before, which is plenty good enough. This would be a way to keep the hitter from getting comfortable while he looks low in the zone all the time, and I think it's pretty well documented that it's hard to lay off the high hard one.
Just my thought.

I've seen him strike guys out with that in the past. I don't know why he doesn't do it more often when he gets ahead of the count. I'm not sure I've seen him try it once this season.

jeremyb1
05-14-2004, 02:09 PM
Originally posted by delben91
My thoughts are merely that it doesn't matter to me how Garland gets guys out, merely that he does. The same has been relatively true with Buehrle all along. Mark isn't over-powering, and to my knowledge doesn't have a quintessential "out pitch." His claim to success was always impeccable control.

Now Garland's control isn't amazing by any stretch, but this year it has been good to quite good from what I've been able to "see" watching the games over a gamecast online. He too isn't over-powering and doesn't have an "out pitch." So long as he's effective though, anything in the same ballpark as the outing he gave today, then it doesn't much matter to me how he does it, merely that he does do it.

Don't get me wrong, he does get guys out and he's a valuable pitcher even if he's just mildly above average. I'm just wondering what aspect of his game could improve to lead him to greatness and I've come up scratching my head some.

Randar68
05-14-2004, 02:19 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
Don't get me wrong, he does get guys out and he's a valuable pitcher even if he's just mildly above average. I'm just wondering what aspect of his game could improve to lead him to greatness and I've come up scratching my head some.

Slider.

His fastball, change, and sinker all tail into the RH-ed batter. He doesn't have an effective pitch that moves R-L. Everything he throws moves in the same direction.

Dub25
05-14-2004, 04:22 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
I love Jon Garland, he's one of my favorite players but his last few starts I've had a dissapointing revelation. He doens't really do anything all that well. He doesn't K many guys with only about 5 per 9 innings. He seems to command his pitches well at times but his BB totals are always somewhat high. With all the raves about his power sinker he doesn't induce all that many groundballs. His G/FB ratio has never been higher than 1.46. Guys like Lowe (3.47 career G/FB), Brown (2.73), and Webb (3.48) induce many more ground balls. Garland's stuff seems good enough that he should be able to strike out more hitters. I'm not sure why he doesn't.

He's a knucklehead who insists on throwing his lousy changeup instead of going with his sinker and fastball. Usually when he gets in trouble it's that stupid changeup. Stop throwing it Jon it sucks.