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View Full Version : Is Jerry Reinsdorfs Anti-Union sentiments real reason for Wunsch in Minors?


Hangar18
05-11-2004, 01:00 PM
I almost brought this point up in another thread, but realize this needs its own thread. Someone brought this up last nite on talk radio.......saying it would be "ashamed if JRs ego gets in the way of the SOX keeping good players on the team, despite union allegiance"

joecrede
05-11-2004, 01:02 PM
Originally posted by Hangar18
I almost brought this point up in another thread, but realize this needs its own thread. Someone brought this up last nite on talk radio.......saying it would be "ashamed if JRs ego gets in the way of the SOX keeping good players on the team, despite union allegiance"

Who should Wunsch replace in the pen?

bobj4400
05-11-2004, 01:05 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
Who should Wunsch replace in the pen?


He pitched well in 2000, so he deserves a spot on the roster b/c of that performance.

thepaulbowski
05-11-2004, 01:09 PM
Maybe that's why the Sox got rid of Jeff Leifer & Chris Singleton, too.

poorme
05-11-2004, 01:15 PM
The guy gave up 17 hits in 36 innings last year! Opposing batters had a .509 OPS against him! Anybody who can do that has a useful place in a major league bullpen.

Hangar18
05-11-2004, 01:29 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
Who should Wunsch replace in the pen?

Better yet........who will be the NEW player rep?

poorme
05-11-2004, 01:30 PM
Originally posted by Hangar18
Better yet........who will be the NEW player rep?

KOCH!

fquaye149
05-11-2004, 01:31 PM
Originally posted by poorme
The guy gave up 17 hits in 36 innings last year! Opposing batters had a .509 OPS against him! Anybody who can do that has a useful place in a major league bullpen.

it's hard though, and i LIKE kelly a lot.

But whom should we send down?

Out of

Adkins
Cotts
Jackson
Koch (not an option to send down)
Marte (not an option to send down)
Politte
Takatsu

not to mention that we're bringing up either rauch, grilli, or diaz

I guess Adkins is expendable. . .but then we're trading a righty arm for a lefty arm and we have 2 strong lefty relievers.

The only situation that I could see happening is that Cotts is moved to the 5th starter spot and wunsch is brought up to replace burke.

But since Ozzie has said he wants to keep Cotts in the pen, this seems unlikely.


what would you suggest?

doublem23
05-11-2004, 01:40 PM
Wunsch is in the minors because we already have more lefty specialists than need be. Sometimes people do end up on the short side of the stick.

Brian26
05-11-2004, 01:50 PM
If Kelly could help the team, he'd be up here now. Let's not be ridiculous.

poorme
05-11-2004, 02:11 PM
Originally posted by fquaye149
what would you suggest?

The most obvious thing would be to make Cotts the 5th starter and replace him with Wunsch.

SoxxoS
05-11-2004, 02:43 PM
Originally posted by bobj4400
He pitched well in 2000, so he deserves a spot on the roster b/c of that performance.

He has pitched fine in 2002 and 2003 as well. 2001 he was hurt. He is a good pitcher.

We are not solid 1-11 and can't have the luxury of keeping Wunsch in Charlotte...if he starts pitching like he is capable. His velocity needs to get back up to 91-92.

If he does that, we have to find a spot for him.

Randar68
05-11-2004, 03:02 PM
Originally posted by SoxxoS
He has pitched fine in 2002 and 2003 as well. 2001 he was hurt. He is a good pitcher.

We are not solid 1-11 and can't have the luxury of keeping Wunsch in Charlotte...if he starts pitching like he is capable. His velocity needs to get back up to 91-92.

If he does that, we have to find a spot for him.

Again, why do we HAVE to find a spot for him? There is no reason on this earth to have 3 lefty "specialists" in the bullpen.

Again, if they move COtts to the rotation, something Ozzie has already claimed wouldn't happen, then I would WANT Kelly recalled. However, since that is not apt to happen, we can sit here and extoll the virtues of Wunsch as a person and as a player of the past 3 or 4 years, but really, he's not the same pitcher right now.

To be rehashing this in yet ANOTHER thread is beyond repetetive.

Kelly was not demoted because of union allegiance, that is silly. What major complaint could anyone, even JR, possibly have with the Union right now? Someone has to be player rep, and each of thoe players is elected by his teammates because of their allegiance to the Union and the team's players. How will it change is someone other than Wunsch is elected?

Seems far-fetched. Seems nobody is willing to accept that he is not as effective and his arm isn't 100% as it has been in the past when he's been successful.

SoxxoS
05-11-2004, 03:08 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
However, since that is not apt to happen, we can sit here and extoll the virtues of Wunsch as a person and as a player of the past 3 or 4 years, but really, he's not the same pitcher right now.

Seems nobody is willing to accept that he is not as effective and his arm isn't 100% as it has been in the past when he's been successful.

Reading is a skill. That is why I said if Kelly pitches light-out in Charlotte, then we have to find a spot for him. We are NOT stacked 1-11 in the pitching departement.

He CAN pitch to both sides of the plate. Righties have only a .703 OPS against him for gosh sakes. It's not like he can't get out a lefty. My gosh.

IF his arm is 100%.

bobj4400
05-11-2004, 03:09 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
Again, why do we HAVE to find a spot for him? There is no reason on this earth to have 3 lefty "specialists" in the bullpen.

Again, if they move COtts to the rotation, something Ozzie has already claimed wouldn't happen, then I would WANT Kelly recalled. However, since that is not apt to happen, we can sit here and extoll the virtues of Wunsch as a person and as a player of the past 3 or 4 years, but really, he's not the same pitcher right now.

To be rehashing this in yet ANOTHER thread is beyond repetetive.

Kelly was not demoted because of union allegiance, that is silly. What major complaint could anyone, even JR, possibly have with the Union right now? Someone has to be player rep, and each of thoe players is elected by his teammates because of their allegiance to the Union and the team's players. How will it change is someone other than Wunsch is elected?

Seems far-fetched. Seems nobody is willing to accept that he is not as effective and his arm isn't 100% as it has been in the past when he's been successful.


THANK YOU!

Randar68
05-11-2004, 03:17 PM
Originally posted by SoxxoS
Reading is a skill. That is why I said if Kelly pitches light-out in Charlotte, then we have to find a spot for him. We are NOT stacked 1-11 in the pitching departement.

He CAN pitch to both sides of the plate. Righties have only a .703 OPS against him for gosh sakes. It's not like he can't get out a lefty. My gosh.

IF his arm is 100%.

No team is STACKED 1-11. Nor does any team HAVE to be. Probably 2 guys in just about every MLB bullpen are situational role-players, depended upon to just eat innings and batters to save the best pitchers for situations that matter.

Kelly doesn't fit in with what we HAVE now. There is no need for another pitcher with Kelly's talents, as we already have 2 effective options.

SoxxoS
05-11-2004, 03:29 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
No team is STACKED 1-11. Nor does any team HAVE to be. Probably 2 guys in just about every MLB bullpen are situational role-players, depended upon to just eat innings and batters to save the best pitchers for situations that matter.

Kelly doesn't fit in with what we HAVE now. There is no need for another pitcher with Kelly's talents, as we already have 2 effective options.

I just think you are shorting his talent...at 100%. The guy can be more than effective pitching an inning against both sides of the plate.

Randar68
05-11-2004, 03:30 PM
Originally posted by SoxxoS
I just think you are shorting his talent...at 100%. The guy can be more than effective pitching an inning against both sides of the plate.

We'll have to agree to disagree, then, because as long as Cotts and Marte are in the pen, I don't think Kelly has a job in Chicago. Both of those pitchers are more complete pitchers and more versatile IMO.

Mickster
05-11-2004, 03:38 PM
Randar,

Could it be that your impressions of Wunsch are based solely upon how he has been used by our previous Manager in the past 4 years? He has the stastistics to back up SoxxoS's arguement in that he can be effective against leftied and righties. The reason we all know Wunsch as a "situational" or "specialist" pitcher is simply that he has been used by the sox in that role almost exclusively in the past.

Do we honestly know that he can't pitch 1-2 innings? Has he been given the chance in the past?

Randar68
05-11-2004, 03:40 PM
Originally posted by Mickster
Randar,

Could it be that your impressions of Wunsch are based solely upon how he has been used by our previous Manager in the past 4 years? He has the stastistics to back up SoxxoS's arguement in that he can be effective against leftied and righties. The reason we all know Wunsch as a "situational" or "specialist" pitcher is simply that he has been used by the sox in that role almost exclusively in the past.

Do we honestly know that he can't pitch 1-2 innings? Has he been given the chance in the past?

I think he could regularly go 1 inning, but I think you'd be pressing your luck to expect anything more than that. He's better at getting lefties out, and the numbers show a terrible K:BB ratio versus righties that essentially negates any low OPP AVG stats against righties.

pcullotta
05-11-2004, 03:42 PM
I think any team can find room for a guy who held lefties to a .127 average (league leading) AND righties to a .153 average last year. Kelly can get righties out too.

Randar68
05-11-2004, 03:55 PM
Originally posted by pcullotta
I think any team can find room for a guy who held lefties to a .127 average (league leading) AND righties to a .153 average last year. Kelly can get righties out too.

Kelly has a career ERA of 3.72 and a 1.31 WHIP. Over the last 3 years, he's had a .210 Opp Avg against and a .353 OBP against RH's over that span.

SoxxoS
05-11-2004, 04:32 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
Kelly has a career ERA of 3.72 and a 1.31 WHIP. Over the last 3 years, he's had a .210 Opp Avg against and a .353 OBP against RH's over that span.

Stats can be biased in whatever way you want...but he was pitching with a torn labrum in 2001, which would skew the numbers a lot. That is 15% of his total innings pitched, and he got pounded.

gosox41
05-11-2004, 10:20 PM
Originally posted by Hangar18
I almost brought this point up in another thread, but realize this needs its own thread. Someone brought this up last nite on talk radio.......saying it would be "ashamed if JRs ego gets in the way of the SOX keeping good players on the team, despite union allegiance"

JR then would have had Wunsch traded and not paid $650K for a left handed specialist.


Bob

cubhater
05-11-2004, 11:04 PM
Originally posted by poorme
KOCH!

Damn, you beat me to it! :gulp:

Dub25
05-11-2004, 11:09 PM
Originally posted by thepaulbowski
Maybe that's why the Sox got rid of Jeff Leifer & Chris Singleton, too.

Speaking of Leifer did anyone see in the Sun-times that a came in Indy was delayed because he was locked in the bathroom.

Mohoney
05-12-2004, 12:56 AM
Originally posted by pcullotta
I think any team can find room for a guy who held lefties to a .127 average (league leading) AND righties to a .153 average last year. Kelly can get righties out too.

Bingo. Start Cotts and put Kelly in the 'pen. Or, send Cotts to AAA so he can start regularly. His future is not as a reliever, so why waste time in his development by keeping him in the bullpen?

Either way, Cotts needs to start games, not perform mop-up duty. Now that Dan Wrong is out of the way, all we need to do is activate Wunsch and send Burke back down.

However, I am willing to see what Diaz can do first. If the guy is lights-out his first 5 or 6 starts, then keep Kelly in Charlotte until somebody in the bullpen gets hurt. Or, package Kelly with Wrong and Borchard and get a starter at the trade deadline. Maybe Al Leiter or Ben Sheets?

lowesox
05-12-2004, 01:41 AM
What's up with this Wunsch thing? Doesn't seem like the sox have acted very professionally about this. In the most recent cubune article it says the Kelly Wunsch might not even be number one on their list if they need a lefty reliever. Ozzie said that the sox just don't need Wunsch.

Why treat somebody that way?

Wunsch always seemed like a class act. He's always been a consistent pitcher. I don't think that he could have done anything to deserve treatment like that. If he did something that was out of line, the sox should just release him. IF they really don't need him, trade him. Or release him. And if you're going to let him rot down in the minors, when he's clearly a major league level pitcher, then be fair to the guy by explaining why.

This is a veteran player, with a family, who's made a fairly large contribution to this organization over the last 3-4 years. This treatment is disgusting. Sometimes, I really hate how we treat our players.

StockdaleForVeep
05-12-2004, 01:47 AM
Some say reason may be because he is the current players union rep for the team since josh paul left last season.

He's still gettin paid 800,000 thanks to the new contract he signed so if i was kelly id be happy, gettin paid for minor ball.


I think i need to stop gettin my jerseys lettered, every jersey i get someone they're traded let\go

Got krivokrasov on my hawk jersey, next season hes let go for nashville

Was gonna get canseco on a sox jersey, then hes gone
was gonna get wunsch, now look where he's at

Honestly tho, do the sox need him up right now? The relief is solid and the starters are goin deep in games, so figure we get as many hitters up to be safe and get their work in. I love wunsch but why have him take a roster spot for .1 inning a week?

Unregistered
05-12-2004, 01:52 AM
"We don't need him," manager Ozzie Guillen said. "If we needed him, he would be here."
Ouch. I understand about Wright, considering for some unknown reason he was given a crapload of chances to prove how much he sucks. But we're talking about a guy that was insanely valuable out of the pen the last few years for the Sox. If we won't use him, he should just be traded - I'm sure a lot of the teams in the league could use him. :?:

SoxxoS
05-12-2004, 02:03 AM
Ozzie should watch what he says...but that quote can be taken out of context.

Randar68
05-12-2004, 11:45 AM
Originally posted by Mohoney
However, I am willing to see what Diaz can do first. If the guy is lights-out his first 5 or 6 starts, then keep Kelly in Charlotte until somebody in the bullpen gets hurt.

So, you'll only be happy if he's lights out for 5 or 6 starts? WOW! Talk about an unrealistic expectation. Then, you'll be here whining and crying if he has a rough outing, because, clearly, in your convoluted reasoning, Kelly being moved back here is far more important????

*****.

BTW, Buehrle started in a similar role to how Cotts is being used now. But hey, that didn't work out very well either...

Randar68
05-12-2004, 11:49 AM
Originally posted by lowesox
What's up with this Wunsch thing? Doesn't seem like the sox have acted very professionally about this. In the most recent cubune article it says the Kelly Wunsch might not even be number one on their list if they need a lefty reliever. Ozzie said that the sox just don't need Wunsch.

Why treat somebody that way?

Wunsch always seemed like a class act. He's always been a consistent pitcher. I don't think that he could have done anything to deserve treatment like that. If he did something that was out of line, the sox should just release him. IF they really don't need him, trade him. Or release him. And if you're going to let him rot down in the minors, when he's clearly a major league level pitcher, then be fair to the guy by explaining why.

This is a veteran player, with a family, who's made a fairly large contribution to this organization over the last 3-4 years. This treatment is disgusting. Sometimes, I really hate how we treat our players.


As always, in comes lowesox to weigh in with his "unbiased" opinion of KW and the Sox. BLA!

What have you done for me lately? He's being paid $800,000 and if he could help the team, he'd be here. Get over it. Treat someone like that? This is a business, buddy, and if they're paying him 800K and he were the best option, he'd be here right now.

Again, get off your "Kelly Wunsch is treated so poorly but there is some kind of conspiracy" Soapbox. This isn't Area 51.

lowesox, maybe you should just not post about the treatment of players, because you obviously have issues with it and no matter what move anyone makes, it's unfair and disrespectful in your opinion. Your perspective is clearly tainted...

quade36
05-12-2004, 11:56 AM
I completely disagree with starting Cotts now and not leaving him in the bullpen.

Look at Buerhle. In his first year he was primarily in the bullpen until he had a few starts at the end of the season. He didn't have a great rookie year, but it conditioned him for the major leagues.

Also I think getting Mike Jackson and Takatsu, even though they are righties definitely hurt Wunsch. If they don't get these guys in the offseason I think their bullpen would not have been as strong and we would have seen Cotts still in the minors and Wunsch up because he has major league experience and success.

Remember, no one knew that Cotts would do this well in spring training.

Baby Fisk
05-12-2004, 01:17 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
Kelly doesn't fit in with what we HAVE now. There is no need for another pitcher with Kelly's talents, as we already have 2 effective options.

Randar, I think this is half of the story. Sorry if this is repeating an argument posted elsewhere, but FWIW, I think Wunsch is being held back in the minors simply because he will be trade bait in the near future. I think the organization has already decided his fate. His numbers have already been posted on this thread, and they are tempting numbers. Why bring him back and create the 3-lefties scenario unnecessarily, when trading him to fill a gap elsewhere would make more sense? There's a lot of people here, myself included, who really like Kelly, but I think the cards are stacked against him by the good performance of Cotts & Marte.

Another thought: Remember over the winter we had about 200 threads calling for Konerko to be traded? Now that he's hit another skid, people are saying he's untradeable. Why bring Kelly back and further twist the situation in the pen? What if Kelly comes back and gives up a bunch of HRs/leads? His tradeability would plummet with each dinger. He's valuable trade bait now, and that sucks, but it's the reality. I hope I'm proven wrong. Sorry for rambling.

Randar68
05-12-2004, 01:21 PM
Originally posted by Baby Fisk
Randar, I think this is half of the story. Sorry if this is repeating an argument posted elsewhere, but FWIW, I think Wunsch is being held back in the minors simply because he will be trade bait in the near future. I think the organization has already decided his fate. His numbers have already been posted on this thread, and they are tempting numbers. Why bring him back and create the 3-lefties scenario unnecessarily, when trading him to fill a gap elsewhere would make more sense? There's a lot of people here, myself included, who really like Kelly, but I think the cards are stacked against him by the good performance of Cotts & Marte.

Another thought: Remember over the winter we had about 200 threads calling for Konerko to be traded? Now that he's hit another skid, people are saying he's untradeable. Why bring Kelly back and further twist the situation in the pen? What if Kelly comes back and gives up a bunch of HRs/leads? His tradeability would plummet with each dinger. He's valuable trade bait now, and that sucks, but it's the reality. I hope I'm proven wrong. Sorry for rambling.

I like Kelly too, but he's not going to be effective at 85 mph, pure and simple. It is possible that he's slated to be traded, and that could be a contributing factor, but this game doesn't operate on what you did the past 3 years, it's predicated on how effective you can be today and in the future.

poorme
05-12-2004, 01:23 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
but this game doesn't operate on what you did the past 3 years, it's predicated on how effective you can be today and in the future.

unless, of course, your name is Billy Koch.

Randar68
05-12-2004, 01:24 PM
Originally posted by poorme
unless, of course, your name is Billy Koch.

Well, perhaps I left out the $$$ part of it. $6+ million is a big difference from 800K.

Baby Fisk
05-12-2004, 01:29 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
this game doesn't operate on what you did the past 3 years, it's predicated on how effective you can be today and in the future.

I guess that's why everyone is freaking out over the idea of getting Robin Ventura back, ho ho... :D:

Randar68
05-12-2004, 01:31 PM
Originally posted by Baby Fisk
I guess that's why everyone is freaking out over the idea of getting Robin Ventura back, ho ho... :D:

Most fans only think with their hearts. In most cases, it leads to completely illogical solutions/ideas, but hey, sports are kind of a fantasy for many...

Huisj
05-12-2004, 02:33 PM
to chime in here, i really like the idea of cotts staying in the bullpen. I'm not totally sure I agree with the philosophy that if a guy's future is as a starter, he's better off starting in the minors than pitching from the pen. Pitching in the situations he's been in this year can be a great way for him to learn a lot more about how to get major league hitters out so that he can be an effective starter down the road. As someone mentioned, it's the way the sox broke in buerhle before he became a consistent starter. Buerhle is the only young sox pitcher in recent history to start contributing as a starter right away when he was put in a starting role. Every other young pitcher over the last few years (as far as i can remember) has pretty much been thrown right into a starting role straight out of the minors, and every one of them has been terribly inconsistent in that role

lowesox
05-12-2004, 04:20 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
As always, in comes lowesox to weigh in with his "unbiased" opinion of KW and the Sox. BLA!

What have you done for me lately? He's being paid $800,000 and if he could help the team, he'd be here. Get over it. Treat someone like that? This is a business, buddy, and if they're paying him 800K and he were the best option, he'd be here right now.

Again, get off your "Kelly Wunsch is treated so poorly but there is some kind of conspiracy" Soapbox. This isn't Area 51.

lowesox, maybe you should just not post about the treatment of players, because you obviously have issues with it and no matter what move anyone makes, it's unfair and disrespectful in your opinion. Your perspective is clearly tainted...

Ah... just the reaction I was expecting from WSI's Resident ***hole. Zero sympathy for a player who's played a key role in our team's success. It's quite funny actually Randar: here we were just agreeing in another thread and then I read this. I suppose the honeymoon can only last so long.

Actually, this is a typical Randar68 post. A lot of hostility. Very little substance. In fact, there really isn't much to reply to since a lot of what you wrote has nothing to do with my orginal post.

I said nothing at all about a conspiracy. Actually, all I was talking about is the way to treat people. I don't like seeing people being treated poorly - even when they're making a lot of money. Especially somebody who's done quite a bit for this organization in the past.

Oh and another thing: You don't have to keep telling me I don't like the way KW does things. I already know. It's obvious. Just like it's obvious that you will defend everything he does regardless of how stupid it is.

I guess some people are just fundamentally different. EXAMPLE: Some people have no problem saying...

Originally posted by Randar68
What have you done for me lately?

And other people believe in respecting players for what they've accomplished.

Randar68
05-12-2004, 05:14 PM
Originally posted by lowesox
Just like it's obvious that you will defend everything he does regardless of how stupid it is.

You obviously have selective memory. I have criticized many moves or signings he's made. However, I also try to look at things from the perspective of the atmosphere at the times of those moves. Ritchie = bad. Koch = Handcuffed because he wasn't going to be able to keep Foulke, signing Konerko and Koch to those deals was bad, but Konerko was just previously an All-Star.

Unfortunately for both the eternal pessimists, and the eternal optimists, the reality is somewhere in the middle. I take heat from both sides. It's not because I lean one way or the other, but have a view that is somewhere in the middle and am more than willing to share it and push it.

I don't think anyone benefits from being out of touch with reality whether it be positively or negatively.

This is a business, not "Care Bears Take the Field." If you want a heart-warming story, watch Sunday Night television, not professional sports.