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Mickster
05-10-2004, 03:35 PM
Listing possible suitors. Among them: our beloved White Sox.

LINK (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=forsalecarlosbeltran&prov=tsn&type=lgns)

Oh, to dream...... :smile:

npdempse
05-10-2004, 03:43 PM
You usually think that he wouldn't be traded within the division, but here, why not? There's no chance he won't be a Yankee after free agency, so why shouldn't KC rent him to us for half a season so maybe the Central can get some respect?

Tekijawa
05-10-2004, 03:46 PM
Originally posted by npdempse
You usually think that he wouldn't be traded within the division, but here, why not? There's no chance he won't be a Yankee after free agency, so why shouldn't KC rent him to us for half a season so maybe the Central can get some respect?

It would probably work int KC favor to do that, by stealing some top prospects from one of the teams in their division knowing that they would only have to play against beltran 14 more times.

fledgedrallycap
05-10-2004, 03:48 PM
The Sox have one thing in their favor, a lot of outfield talent in the Farm. One major factor why the Sox wouldn't do this deal (unless they do view it as a 1/2 year rent-a-player), Scott Boras is Beltran's agent and he no likey doing business with J.R.

Mickster
05-10-2004, 03:51 PM
Assuming we could only acquire 2 players before the trade deadline, I would love to see:

1. Freddy Garcia
2. Beltran (even for 1/2 year)

Could you imagine our lineup and defense? We would also have a #1 on our staff.....

Randar68
05-10-2004, 04:04 PM
Originally posted by Mickster
Assuming we could only acquire 2 players before the trade deadline, I would love to see:

1. Freddy Garcia
2. Beltran (even for 1/2 year)

Could you imagine our lineup and defense? We would also have a #1 on our staff.....

Well, pitching is definitely more imprtant at this time. I don't know what to think about OF. It's a deep position within the organization, but if I could trade Maggs for Beltran, I'd do it. Unfortunately, we'd have to dump serious prospects and I'm not willing to do that if we can keep Maggs for a lesser cost essentially.

Dadawg_77
05-10-2004, 04:31 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
Well, pitching is definitely more imprtant at this time. I don't know what to think about OF. It's a deep position within the organization, but if I could trade Maggs for Beltran, I'd do it. Unfortunately, we'd have to dump serious prospects and I'm not willing to do that if we can keep Maggs for a lesser cost essentially.

In a baseball sense you trade prospects for Beltran since their celling is what Beltran is.

In a economic sense if you think those prospects will come close to Beltran it won't worth to pay Beltran 8 digit salary versus a couple of six digit salaries.

Wonder is the Royals would take a package which had Lee, one of our better pitching prospects. That way the Royals would get a major league player for PR purposes, while the Sox could easily have one of young outfield prospects take Lee's place at a lesser cost. Save enough money to maybe keep Mags and Beltran next year.

DaveIsHere
05-10-2004, 04:33 PM
Why??? SO our own ex-players can beat the crap out of us 19 times a year!?!?!?! Do not trade within the division that is dumb

jabrch
05-10-2004, 04:34 PM
Originally posted by DaveIsHere
Why??? SO our own ex-players can beat the crap out of us 19 times a year!?!?!?! Do not trade within the division that is dumb

To WIN this year

Dadawg_77
05-10-2004, 04:34 PM
Originally posted by DaveIsHere
Why??? SO our own ex-players can beat the crap out of us 19 times a year!?!?!?! Do not trade within the division that is dumb

For a player like Beltran, I trade with anyone. Just would want to keep him after this year.

Randar68
05-10-2004, 04:35 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
In a baseball sense you trade prospects for Beltran since their celling is what Beltran is.

In a economic sense if you think those prospects will come close to Beltran it won't worth to pay Beltran 8 digit salary versus a couple of six digit salaries.

Wonder is the Royals would take a package which had Lee, one of our better pitching prospects. That way the Royals would get a major league player for PR purposes, while the Sox could easily have one of young outfield prospects take Lee's place at a lesser cost. Save enough money to maybe keep Mags and Beltran next year.

I don't know. I don't think they can afford to have both Beltran and Maggs. Too many other factors IMO, and the list of OF prospects, while some may discount prospects as irrelevant, definitely comes into play when determining your weaknesses throughout the organization. I still think catcher, 1B, middle IF, and pitching are bigger holes right now from top to bottom than OF.

Boras is Beltran's agent, so, while I don't think you should just give up, I think it's remarkably unlikely he signs with the Sox either in the off-season or as part of a trade.

Dadawg_77
05-10-2004, 04:41 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
I don't know. I don't think they can afford to have both Beltran and Maggs. Too many other factors IMO, and the list of OF prospects, while some may discount prospects as irrelevant, definitely comes into play when determining your weaknesses throughout the organization. I still think catcher, 1B, middle IF, and pitching are bigger holes right now from top to bottom than OF.

Boras is Beltran's agent, so, while I don't think you should just give up, I think it's remarkably unlikely he signs with the Sox either in the off-season or as part of a trade.

Lee is making 6,375,000 and Koch is making 6,500,000 this year. I am guessing it would take about 12 million to sign Beltran next year. Get rid of Lee and let Koch walk would free up that money it would take to get Beltran. Mags will cost 12-14 million, he is already making 14 million, so net effect on overall payroll will be neutral to positive. If there was any way to get rid of Konerko bloated contract we would be golden.

Beltran would just be a name but a dynamite player who could attract more season ticket holders next year.

Randar68
05-10-2004, 04:44 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
Lee is making 6,375,000 and Koch is making 6,500,000 this year. I am guessing it would take about 12 million to sign Beltran next year. Get rid of Lee and let Koch walk would free up that money it would take to get Beltran. Mags will cost 12-14 million, he is already making 14 million, so net effect on overall payroll will be neutral to positive. If there was any way to get rid of Konerko bloated contract we would be golden.

Beltran would just be a name but a dynamite player who could attract more season ticket holders next year.

I don't disagree, but there are several others in line for decent raises next off-season too. Frank's contract goes up by 2 million. Buehrle, Loaiza if they resign him, etc etc... Jose and Sandy come off the books too, though, IIRC...

In the long term, they may be able to over-look Konerko's contract, since they'll only have one more year of it, it wouldn't be as big of an effect in the long term.

An OF of Reed, Beltran and Maggs would be pretty special, but it would be done at the sacrifice of other positions, IMO.

Dadawg_77
05-10-2004, 04:45 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
I don't know. I don't think they can afford to have both Beltran and Maggs. Too many other factors IMO, and the list of OF prospects, while some may discount prospects as irrelevant, definitely comes into play when determining your weaknesses throughout the organization. I still think catcher, 1B, middle IF, and pitching are bigger holes right now from top to bottom than OF.

Boras is Beltran's agent, so, while I don't think you should just give up, I think it's remarkably unlikely he signs with the Sox either in the off-season or as part of a trade.

Catcher a hole, what happen to your belief in Olivo? If Uribe and Harris can handle it, then middle IF should be find. Finding someone like a Pokie Resse to sure it up can be done every year. Pitching is a major hole but not sure too many quality FA will be out there next year. Might have to rely on our system to generate some players. First base, we still would have Frank. Should be able to go get some like Brad Fullmer to fill it out.

Dadawg_77
05-10-2004, 04:49 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
I don't disagree, but there are several others in line for decent raises next off-season too. Frank's contract goes up by 2 million. Buehrle, Loaiza if they resign him, etc etc... Jose and Sandy come off the books too, though, IIRC...

In the long term, they may be able to over-look Konerko's contract, since they'll only have one more year of it, it wouldn't be as big of an effect in the long term.

An OF of Reed, Beltran and Maggs would be pretty special, but it would be done at the sacrifice of other positions, IMO.

I wonder what you could get for Buehrle on the open market? It would be intriguing to see. While I like him as a pitcher, I don't see him as an ace of a staff, but some teams might. Loaiza probably won't be worth what he will ask for, so I won't be surprise or too upset to see him go, this dynamic opinion and is subject to wild changes depending on how Loaiza does.

Sandy is listed as making only 700K. I was allocating Jose's 5 million to cover pay raises, not sure if it would work. One could also structure Mags contracts for lower payments now, so he would take less of a chunk of payroll next year.

CubKilla
05-10-2004, 04:53 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
To WIN this year

You're gonna need alot more than Beltran to win this year.

Randar68
05-10-2004, 04:54 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
Catcher a hole, what happen to your belief in Olivo? If Uribe and Harris can handle it, then middle IF should be find. Finding someone like a Pokie Resse to sure it up can be done every year. Pitching is a major hole but not sure too many quality FA will be out there next year. Might have to rely on our system to generate some players. First base, we still would have Frank. Should be able to go get some like Brad Fullmer to fill it out.

The "Organization" encompasses the entire organization, from foreign scouting and player development and drafts to all the minor league teams and players. I think you're failing to look at the big picture that I have referenced in so many words several times.

I have tons of faith in Olivo, but where are the developing backups? What do you do if he blows out a knee? It's a very difficult position to fill, and the lack of focus on keeping a stream of serviceable MLB catchers intact continues in the Sox organization. I am fully aware of the state of the MLB team, but you're missing the point if you think that should be the sole focus of any and all deals.

Randar68
05-10-2004, 05:00 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
I wonder what you could get for Buehrle on the open market? It would be intriguing to see. While I like him as a pitcher, I don't see him as an ace of a staff, but some teams might. Loaiza probably won't be worth what he will ask for, so I won't be surprise or too upset to see him go, this dynamic opinion and is subject to wild changes depending on how Loaiza does.


Ok, but what does your pitching staff look like if you're spending 30 million on your OF and who plays 1st?

Buehrle
Garland
Schoeny
Cotts
Rauch/Diaz????

With a big ? to the bullpen and no closer?

Certainly doesn't look like a playoff team to me, closer to the Texas Rangers of the past few years.

rahulsekhar
05-10-2004, 05:00 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
Lee is making 6,375,000 and Koch is making 6,500,000 this year. I am guessing it would take about 12 million to sign Beltran next year. Get rid of Lee and let Koch walk would free up that money it would take to get Beltran. Mags will cost 12-14 million, he is already making 14 million, so net effect on overall payroll will be neutral to positive. If there was any way to get rid of Konerko bloated contract we would be golden.

Beltran would just be a name but a dynamite player who could attract more season ticket holders next year.

Wow, I hadn't realized that the $$ worked out like that. If you could trade for Beltran (say...Anderson+Rauch+low-level guys?), then turn around and trade Lee for a decent young starter, then you let Koch walk, resign Beltran/Maggs, and with the other raises and the loss of Valentin (replaced by Uribe) you effectively maintain payroll (or increase slightly, which SHOULD be offset by increased attendance from the Beltran PR and likely Sox division title).

Maybe the Dodgers are interested in Carlos for a young pitcher? Or the Padres could use a hitter? Heck - see if the Mets will deal for him, they could use some more O andhave some good pitching prospects.

The key though is getting Beltran to resign. I wonder....if you resign Maggs first, then trade for Carlos - any chance you can basically work out a $14m deal ahead of time based on the team, city, and playing for Ozzie? I guess with Bora$$ it's unlikely, but a nice dream!

Dadawg_77
05-10-2004, 05:08 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
The "Organization" encompasses the entire organization, from foreign scouting and player development and drafts to all the minor league teams and players. I think you're failing to look at the big picture that I have referenced in so many words several times.

I have tons of faith in Olivo, but where are the developing backups? What do you do if he blows out a knee? It's a very difficult position to fill, and the lack of focus on keeping a stream of serviceable MLB catchers intact continues in the Sox organization. I am fully aware of the state of the MLB team, but you're missing the point if you think that should be the sole focus of any and all deals.

I understand the need to keep an healthy organization, but that comes from drafts and smaller deals which shouldn't have a major impact on how the MLB team is setup. Everything in the Organization is about the MLB team success. To make a great deal for your AAA squad at the expense of MLB team is a nose job which destroys your face. Thus you spend an little extra money and time on acquiring players of Beltran's caliber at the expense of missing that great find who could help you at AA catcher.

Plus one can find find major league serviceable players on free agent list right before spring training every year. This is especially true with newer market conditions. The Independent Leagues could offer some decent replacement level players.

Dadawg_77
05-10-2004, 05:12 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
Ok, but what does your pitching staff look like if you're spending 30 million on your OF and who plays 1st?

Buehrle
Garland
Schoeny
Cotts
Rauch/Diaz????

With a big ? to the bullpen and no closer?

Certainly doesn't look like a playoff team to me, closer to the Texas Rangers of the past few years.

That is the $64,000 question. The thing is you need to better this major league ball club. I am trying to find the FA list for next year, I can't recall any good pitchers on it. So then you trade for one, but that will cost an arm and a leg. It does look like the Rangers, but then again the Rangers might of had a chance in the Central the last few years.

Randar68
05-10-2004, 05:14 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
To make a great deal for your AAA squad at the expense of MLB team is a nose job which destroys your face. Thus you spend an little extra money and time on acquiring players of Beltran's caliber at the expense of missing that great find who could help you at AA catcher.


I'm sorry, but your post totally ignores the fact that "helping your minor league teams" is not the goal. Acquiring and developing players to EVENTUALLY help you on the MLB level is the goal and benefit of such moves.

You don't trade for a AA catcher who you don't believe will ever develop into a MLB player.

Originally posted by Dadawg_77
Catcher a hole, what happen to your belief in Olivo? If Uribe and Harris can handle it, then middle IF should be find. Finding someone like a Pokie Resse to sure it up can be done every year. Pitching is a major hole but not sure too many quality FA will be out there next year. Might have to rely on our system to generate some players. First base, we still would have Frank. Should be able to go get some like Brad Fullmer to fill it out.

So, on to this post, where you say there aren't many good pitching options, so our system might have to generate some. You make it sound like a Fast-Food-Restaurant. You just can't order-up pitchers from your system when needed like a Big Mac. They come from said drafts, minor deals, player development. Again, you make something, which in it's entirety, is a business as large as the MLB club, sound like an after-thought.

You can't make every decision and move for your MLB club with blind ignorance toward your system. That system is the very future and success of your club, ESPECIALLY when dealing with an organization hell-bent on limiting payroll to middle of the pack at best.

Randar68
05-10-2004, 05:16 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
That is the $64,000 question. The thing is you need to better this major league ball club. I am trying to find the FA list for next year, I can't recall any good pitchers on it. So then you trade for one, but that will cost an arm and a leg. It does look like the Rangers, but then again the Rangers might of had a chance in the Central the last few years.

Pedro is the only guy out there in FA next year who is a #1 or #2 pitcher IIRC.

You can't expect to fill that many holes at once from a system not prepared for that kind shift.

They'll have to keep Loazia IMO in order to have any hope outside of a MAJOR deal.

Tekijawa
05-10-2004, 05:20 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
I am trying to find the FA list for next year, I can't recall any good pitchers on it.

I'd like Pedro Martinez...

Dadawg_77
05-10-2004, 05:20 PM
http://kmbumb.people.wm.edu/05agency.html

Found a list, not sure how good it is.

Morris, Daal, Lowe, Pedro, Lieber, Garicia, Alvarez, Leiter?, Millwood, Milton, Benson

Those are the names I would be interested in. Does any of them help this team more then Beltran would? Pedro if healthy is yes, Morris, Milton, Millwood could. Benson if he ever could breakout and realize how to pitch would. Alvarez might but I think he would be a cheap signing.

Mickster
05-10-2004, 05:22 PM
What would you give up (future-wise) for a LEGITIMATE shot at a WS title this year?

That is the $64,000 question.....

Would you give up some good prospects to acquire Beltran, Garcia and a very serviceable closer for a 2004 WS title even though Garcia and Beltran might not be with you in 2005? Tough question.....

Chisoxfn
05-10-2004, 05:22 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
The "Organization" encompasses the entire organization, from foreign scouting and player development and drafts to all the minor league teams and players. I think you're failing to look at the big picture that I have referenced in so many words several times.

I have tons of faith in Olivo, but where are the developing backups? What do you do if he blows out a knee? It's a very difficult position to fill, and the lack of focus on keeping a stream of serviceable MLB catchers intact continues in the Sox organization. I am fully aware of the state of the MLB team, but you're missing the point if you think that should be the sole focus of any and all deals.
Thats where Landon Powell or Jeff Clement will fit in. I firmly believe one of them will be taken early by the White Sox, probably with one of the sandwich picks (supplemental).

But the Sox are extremely thin behind the plate and its too risky putting all the eggs in Olivo.

Chris Stewart is very good defensively while Lisk is toolsy, but neither are offensive weapons at this point. Then you have Matt Deuchler who did solid last season after being a later round pick and of course Carlos Lee who has struggled immensly.

And Hankins and Burke aren't exactly long term solutions.

jabrch
05-10-2004, 05:23 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
One could also structure Mags contracts for lower payments now, so he would take less of a chunk of payroll next year.


:reinsy
"Can I do that?"

Tekijawa
05-10-2004, 05:24 PM
I honestly think that Garciaparra would help out this team more than Beltran would when you take in to account what we have at those positions now and in the minors. Beltran is by far the better player but I don't remember the last time the Sox had a good SS?

Dadawg_77
05-10-2004, 05:26 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
I'm sorry, but your post totally ignores the fact that "helping your minor league teams" is not the goal. Acquiring and developing players to EVENTUALLY help you on the MLB level is the goal and benefit of such moves.

You don't trade for a AA catcher who you don't believe will ever develop into a MLB player.

So, on to this post, where you say there aren't many good pitching options, so our system might have to generate some. You make it sound like a Fast-Food-Restaurant. You just can't order-up pitchers from your system when needed like a Big Mac. They come from said drafts, minor deals, player development. Again, you make something, which in it's entirety, is a business as large as the MLB club, sound like an after-thought.

You can't make every decision and move for your MLB club with blind ignorance toward your system. That system is the very future and success of your club, ESPECIALLY when dealing with an organization hell-bent on limiting payroll to middle of the pack at best.

I am not saying make moves without looking at what your system has. Beltran is an elite player in my mind. Yes we have quality stock of prospects there, but not all of them will make it and if they do, they can only hope to be Beltran. Thus if you can, you should acquire Beltran and use what ever surplus you have to acquire other talent to fill holes. Also the Sox OF talent seems more to corner positions then CF, Beltran is the best center fielder in the game currently.

jabrch
05-10-2004, 05:27 PM
Originally posted by Tekijawa
I honestly think that Garciaparra would help out this team more than Beltran would when you take in to account what we have at those positions now and in the minors. Beltran is by far the better player but I don't remember the last time the Sox had a good SS?


Teki - take a look at Nomar's home/road splits. Outside of Fenway, I wouldn't pay him the kind of money that he wants to make.

Dadawg_77
05-10-2004, 05:27 PM
Originally posted by Tekijawa
I honestly think that Garciaparra would help out this team more than Beltran would when you take in to account what we have at those positions now and in the minors. Beltran is by far the better player but I don't remember the last time the Sox had a good SS?

Depends if Uribe keeps up what he is doing. Then Nomar would price wouldn't be worth it.

Voice of Reason
05-10-2004, 05:33 PM
Originally posted by Tekijawa
I honestly think that Garciaparra would help out this team more than Beltran would when you take in to account what we have at those positions now and in the minors. Beltran is by far the better player but I don't remember the last time the Sox had a good SS?

Currently the Sox have one of three major league shortstops who have hit at least 25 home runs in each of the last four years (the other two are Arod and Miguel Tejada and I realize I'm defining shortstops liberally). It's a junk fact but nonetheless Valentin makes the fictional, subjective and debatable all-underated team. Seriously, Valentin would have some all-star appearances to his credit if he played in the NL the last few years. The only NL shortstop I'd take over Valentin is Edgar Renteria. If I have the option of replacing Rowand with Beltran or Valentin with Garciaparra, I take Beltran in the time it takes for Valentin to throw one into the dirt.

gogosoxgogo
05-10-2004, 05:36 PM
Interesting. I would love to have Beltran as he would be a very solid addition to our lineup this season and make us definate contenders, I worry about how much we would give up to get him. To get Beltran would like at least a Honel in my opinion. Keep in mind we would only have Beltran for half a year if we did trade someone like Honel to get him. That price may be a bit steep. I'm stil undecided on that one. I'd rather that we trade for pitching, either starting or relieving. We've got plenty of OF prospects. What if we shipped off one to get another pitcher. That would be more useful than Beltran.

Voice of Reason
05-10-2004, 05:48 PM
Originally posted by gogosoxgogo
Interesting. I would love to have Beltran as he would be a very solid addition to our lineup this season and make us definate contenders, I worry about how much we would give up to get him. To get Beltran would like at least a Honel in my opinion. Keep in mind we would only have Beltran for half a year if we did trade someone like Honel to get him. That price may be a bit steep. I'm stil undecided on that one. I'd rather that we trade for pitching, either starting or relieving. We've got plenty of OF prospects. What if we shipped off one to get another pitcher. That would be more useful than Beltran.

I'd trade Honel, who has made all of one start this year due to arm trouble, for Beltran in a second.

kittle42
05-10-2004, 05:51 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
Ok, but what does your pitching staff look like if you're spending 30 million on your OF and who plays 1st?

Buehrle
Garland
Schoeny
Cotts
Rauch/Diaz????

With a big ? to the bullpen and no closer?

Certainly doesn't look like a playoff team to me, closer to the Texas Rangers of the past few years.

As long as JR is committed to handcuffing himself financially, the team will continue to have to subtract when it adds.

Excellent point.

mdep524
05-11-2004, 01:22 AM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
http://kmbumb.people.wm.edu/05agency.html

Found a list, not sure how good it is.

Morris, Daal, Lowe, Pedro, Lieber, Garicia, Alvarez, Leiter?, Millwood, Milton, Benson

Those are the names I would be interested in. Does any of them help this team more then Beltran would? Pedro if healthy is yes, Morris, Milton, Millwood could. Benson if he ever could breakout and realize how to pitch would. Alvarez might but I think he would be a cheap signing.

To everyone who thinks the Sox should not sign Beltran because the money should go to starting pitching- when have the Sox EVER shelled out the big bucks for a long term contract for a pitcher? Aside from Jamie Navarro, the stupidest exception to a rule I've ever heard of, the answer is NEVER. If you honestly think the Sox will so much as sniff around signing Pedro or Morris for like 5 years or something, you are crazy.

The Sox will have money however, and if the chances of the team signing a hitter are better (not great, but better). Beltran would command a hefty salary, but he is not a risk and the Sox would feel more comfortable about it. Then perhaps we could trade for pitching with our surplus of minor league OFs.

Assuming things stay the same as they are now-the Sox will need BOTH pitching and hitting for next year. (Our slow right handed glut ain't gonna cut it at the plate.) All I'm saying is the money's not going to go into FA pitching anyway (and frankly, the FA names aren't that great to begin with) so there's no reason why it can't go into Beltran.

JDP
05-11-2004, 08:43 AM
Assuming the Sox are 1st or 2nd and/or within striking range....

Trade: Rauch/Borchard/Anderson for Beltran end of June. That gives them 2 AAA/Majors-ready prospects at SP and OF, with a CF prospect in the wings. If need be, perhaps another low-level top prospect can be added to the pot as well. That adds 1/2 of Beltran's $9.0 [$4.5] to the payroll this year for the final 3-month stretch and potential playoff run.

If Seattle's woes are continuing, pull the string on a Lee for Garcia deal. The Sox pick up another SP for a weak rotation and gain only a marginal portion of salary (Lee's $6.25 vs Garcia's $6.875).

So, for a playoff push, the revamped staff would sit strong with Garcia, Loaiza, Buehrle, Garland, Diaz for a playoff push. The offense would be improved even with Lee's departure, with an OF, left to right, looking along the lines of Borchard/Reed/Rowand, Beltran, Ordonez -- not to mention with a LF and CF bat that is switch-hitting (left handed hitting!) -- with added speed and better defense in Beltran and Reed (if so called up). The rest of the offense looks the same.

After the season, you have departing:
SS Valentin $5.0
CL Koch $6.25
MR Takatsu $1.0
SP Loaiza $3.5
MR Politte $1.0
MR Wunsch $1.0
C Alomar $0.75
TOTAL off payroll: $18.5

Substantial raises: Thomas, +$2.0, Buehrle, +$2.0, with minimal raises for Crede, Marte and various others totaling near $3.0. That net's around $11.5 off of the 2004 opening day roster to use towards Garcia and Beltran, who will probably end up costing in the ballpark of $23-$25 to retain them both.

The three keys to retaining both of the proposed traded-for players:
1) How well the Sox did in the '04 playoff push
2) JR's pocket/willinging to use it
3) Ability to move Konerko

Basically, best case scenario has the Sox moving deep into the playoffs and being able to retain one, if not both, of Garcia and Beltran, beyond '04. Worst case is not making the playoffs/being booted in the first round and then not retaining either Garcia or Beltran. Obviously, we know what Sox fans would want....

Edit:
Interesting FA's to look at '05:
3B Troy Glaus
RP Mike DeJean
SP Pedro Martinez
SP Derek Lowe
RP Mike Timlin
CL Troy Percival
CL Ugie Urbina
SS Christian Guzman
3B Corie Koskie
SS Rich Aurilia
2B Brett Boone
RP Jeff Nelson
RP Jeff Zimmerman
OF J.D. Drew
CL Armando Benitez
RP Chad Fox
SP Wilson Alvarez
2B Jeff Kent
SS Orlando Cabrera
2B Jose Vidro
SP Kevin Millwood
SP Matt Morris
SP Woody Williams
CL Trevor Hoffman
RP Felix Rodriguez

Randar68
05-11-2004, 10:58 AM
Originally posted by JDP
Assuming the Sox are 1st or 2nd and/or within striking range....

Trade: Rauch/Borchard/Anderson for Beltran end of June.


Welcome to the death of the Sox system. You're NUTS, he's a rent-a player!

Sheeesh.

Dadawg_77
05-11-2004, 10:59 AM
Originally posted by Randar68
Welcome to the death of the Sox system. You're NUTS, he's a rent-a player!

Sheeesh.

Not that this move would, but would you kill the system by making moves to secure a World Series?

Randar68
05-11-2004, 11:05 AM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
Not that this move would, but would you kill the system by making moves to secure a World Series?

1) There's no guarantee on a W.S.
2) This team still is weak in the bullpen and has several other issues
3) You're trading 3 of your top 10 prospects for a FREAKING rent-a-player. We see how well the Marlins recovered after they "bought" a World Series the first time, something they bought with money while we'd be buying it with prospects...

jabrch
05-11-2004, 11:06 AM
Originally posted by Randar68
Welcome to the death of the Sox system. You're NUTS, he's a rent-a player!

Sheeesh.

Rauch and Borchard don't look to me like they are ever going to be impact players here. Anderson is young, at a position where we have some depth. Remember, also if we sign Beltran, and he is a rent-a-player, we'd (assumedly) get two draft picks in compensation for him to replace whatever we send to KC.

If you tell me we can have Beltran in June here, and don't have to give up Reed, Honel, etc., I am all over it. This team is not so far off that putting Beltran in for Rowand doesn't make us a legit WS contender. In any case, it would put us on the national baseball map. It would be a bold PR move that would put us on the media limelight here in Chicago. It would help the club immensely in so many ways. I am willing to deal with losing Borch/Rauch/Anderson for that opportunity.

Randar68
05-11-2004, 11:09 AM
Originally posted by jabrch
Rauch and Borchard don't look to me like they are ever going to be impact players here. Anderson is young, at a position where we have some depth. Remember, also if we sign Beltran, and he is a rent-a-player, we'd (assumedly) get two draft picks in compensation for him to replace whatever we send to KC.

If you tell me we can have Beltran in June here, and don't have to give up Reed, Honel, etc., I am all over it. This team is not so far off that putting Beltran in for Rowand doesn't make us a legit WS contender. In any case, it would put us on the national baseball map. It would be a bold PR move that would put us on the media limelight here in Chicago. It would help the club immensely in so many ways. I am willing to deal with losing Borch/Rauch/Anderson for that opportunity.


These are the short-sighted moves I was talking about. You have a lot of flexibility in the off-season, and if you're going to try to do it, sign him then, when all you lose is 1 draft pick and no high-level prospects.

This team has one of the weakest starting rotations of ANY "contender" and a CF'er waiting to get the call in AAA. Beltran would be a great addition, but not at the cost here, and certainly not if it precludes KW from making some moves for starting and bullpen help, which is SORELY needed.

Dadawg_77
05-11-2004, 11:11 AM
Originally posted by Randar68
1) There's no guarantee on a W.S.
2) This team still is weak in the bullpen and has several other issues
3) You're trading 3 of your top 10 prospects for a FREAKING rent-a-player. We see how well the Marlins recovered after they "bought" a World Series the first time, something they bought with money while we'd be buying it with prospects...

But they still have a world series trophy, the Sox cabinet has been bare for about 90 years. Generations have lived and died without seeing a World Series victory on the South side. If take buy one with prospect so be it. I am sure we would rather be the Marlins to win the World Series then dismantle then 83 years of rebuilding.

I would hope if the Sox did trade for Beltran that they would resign him and could get him cheaper. But the question was a general one.

kittle42
05-11-2004, 11:13 AM
I would definitely trade a few high-level prospects for a rent-a-player. What is this attitude that we don't want to "destroy the system" when we never win a damn thing in this town?! Play for today - we lose every year in the end, anyway.

But to do this, we'd have to get another starter, too. No point in only taking care of one problem.

Dadawg_77
05-11-2004, 11:17 AM
Originally posted by Randar68
These are the short-sighted moves I was talking about. You have a lot of flexibility in the off-season, and if you're going to try to do it, sign him then, when all you lose is 1 draft pick and no high-level prospects.

This team has one of the weakest starting rotations of ANY "contender" and a CF'er waiting to get the call in AAA. Beltran would be a great addition, but not at the cost here, and certainly not if it precludes KW from making some moves for starting and bullpen help, which is SORELY needed.

What quality starter pitcher is available for a trade? Randy Johnson? Al Lieter? Freddy Garica? Tom Glavine? Livan Hernandez?

Randar68
05-11-2004, 11:28 AM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
What quality starter pitcher is available for a trade? Randy Johnson? Al Lieter? Freddy Garica? Tom Glavine? Livan Hernandez?

Probably any of those guys outside of Johnson, who, IIRC is 10/5 and can veto trades???

My point is this:

This team needs OBP. Too many slow no-walk high-K guys. If they could get someone along the lines of Juan Pierre (not saying Pierre himself), it would be much more beneficial based on the make-up of this team.

You don't trade that much talent for a rent-a-player, unless you feel he's the final piece to the puzzle. This team doesn't have enough pitching to get past the first round if they make the playoffs as I see it now, so adding Beltran helps you none.

Hangar18
05-11-2004, 11:31 AM
Originally posted by Randar68
Probably any of those guys outside of Johnson, who, IIRC is 10/5 and can veto trades???

My point is this:

This team needs OBP. Too many slow no-walk high-K guys. If they could get someone along the lines of Juan Pierre (not saying Pierre himself), it would be much more beneficial based on the make-up of this team.

You don't trade that much talent for a rent-a-player, unless you feel he's the final piece to the puzzle. This team doesn't have enough pitching to get past the first round if they make the playoffs as I see it now, so adding Beltran helps you none.

excellent post ............ I agree. For Willie Harris being so "Fast", hes a terrible baserunner

Dadawg_77
05-11-2004, 11:32 AM
Some quality/Cheap relief pitchers that could be available.

Eddy Guardado, Rodrigo Lopez, Brian Meadows, John Riedling, Tim Harikkala.

I know the Sox pen is weak, there is a reason why the Pen is the least used in baseball.

E Coast Sox Fan
05-11-2004, 11:34 AM
Amen. If we live for today, the team will have the most success possible and will most likely earn the most money possible making it possible to have better teams in the future.

jabrch
05-11-2004, 11:37 AM
Originally posted by Randar68
These are the short-sighted moves I was talking about. You have a lot of flexibility in the off-season, and if you're going to try to do it, sign him then, when all you lose is 1 draft pick and no high-level prospects.

This team has one of the weakest starting rotations of ANY "contender" and a CF'er waiting to get the call in AAA. Beltran would be a great addition, but not at the cost here, and certainly not if it precludes KW from making some moves for starting and bullpen help, which is SORELY needed.

Randar, isn't Reed a more likely candidate to play the corners than to play CF? What is your eventually MLB expectations for Borchard and Rauch? How can you argue against Beltran? Sure I'd love a top pitcher, but at the same time, I won't turn down an opportunity to get Beltran.

Dadawg_77
05-11-2004, 11:38 AM
Originally posted by Randar68
Probably any of those guys outside of Johnson, who, IIRC is 10/5 and can veto trades???

My point is this:

This team needs OBP. Too many slow no-walk high-K guys. If they could get someone along the lines of Juan Pierre (not saying Pierre himself), it would be much more beneficial based on the make-up of this team.

You don't trade that much talent for a rent-a-player, unless you feel he's the final piece to the puzzle. This team doesn't have enough pitching to get past the first round if they make the playoffs as I see it now, so adding Beltran helps you none.

So Beltran isn't fast and doesn't have OBP? Beltran is Pierre with hell of a lot more power, little less speed and better track record of getting on base. Come on now, you would take Beltran over Pierre no matter what your team makeup is.

Yes pitching is lacking no one is saying it isn't, but Lee could be good trade bait in getting some relief pitcher help and maybe a starter.

mdep524
05-11-2004, 12:39 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
1) There's no guarantee on a W.S.
2) This team still is weak in the bullpen and has several other issues
3) You're trading 3 of your top 10 prospects for a FREAKING rent-a-player. We see how well the Marlins recovered after they "bought" a World Series the first time, something they bought with money while we'd be buying it with prospects...

Yeah, look how long it took Florida to recover- 6 loooong years. As opposed to the Sox, who haven't been to a Series for 45 years, but at least we've had prospects.

kittle42
05-11-2004, 02:25 PM
Plus, I'll take another centurey of futility for one world series, especially this season, given the state of this city.

E Coast Sox Fan
05-11-2004, 02:42 PM
And the live for today theory is not unheard of....it's currently being employed in Boston.

Like the other Sox, the White Sox also look pretty good. Making some moves to try to win it all would be worth it.

Win or lose, we'll probably be doing some rebuilding at the end of the year anyway with Magg's contract coming due. We might as well give ourselves the best shot now.

Let's go Jerry! Let's put our best effort into this season...

SoxxoS
05-11-2004, 02:50 PM
Would anybody mind acquiring Al Leiter? I definitely wouldn't. The guy is a compeitior. Period.

He is 38, but still proves he's got something in the tank:

1-1 with a 1.38 ERA. 1.13 WHIP!...

He is making a lot of money...10 million...but he should only be owed about 5 by the time we would trade for him...and KW is going to have to get creative.

There would be nothing I would like more than adding a guy like Leiter to the rotation.

After the Leiter acqusition, we can trade Jose Valentin for Danny Graves...whose salaries about even out. There is our closer. We have dealt with both teams in the past...so it's not out of the realm of possibility.

Leiter
Loiaza
Buerhle
Show
Garland

Koch
Marte
Graves.

I likey.

Randar68
05-11-2004, 03:14 PM
Originally posted by SoxxoS

Koch
Marte
Graves.

I likey.

You'd just have to put Koch out to pasture for the end of the year. I don't think he'd be useful in any other bullpen roll. Just puts too many guys on base to be counted on to come in for any situation where there are inherited runners.

SoxxoS
05-11-2004, 03:16 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
You'd just have to put Koch out to pasture for the end of the year. I don't think he'd be useful in any other bullpen roll. Just puts too many guys on base to be counted on to come in for any situation where there are inherited runners.

True, but do you want him closing the 9th inning of a playoff game? I definitely don't. Looks like we are up crap creek with Koch. Closing games is the only thing he can do with some regularity...and it's the most important job in the pen. A paradox.

Randar68
05-11-2004, 03:28 PM
Originally posted by SoxxoS
True, but do you want him closing the 9th inning of a playoff game? I definitely don't. Looks like we are up crap creek with Koch. Closing games is the only thing he can do with some regularity...and it's the most important job in the pen. A paradox.

This is a major issue with any playoff chances this team holds, and why we should all be glad we aren't KW right now (although he basically put himself in this situation)...

Dadawg_77
05-11-2004, 03:40 PM
Originally posted by SoxxoS
...and it's the most important job in the pen. A paradox.

Actually I don't think that is true. The most important job is coming into situation where the likely hold of scoring is high and shutting the scoring threat down.

SoxxoS
05-11-2004, 03:47 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
Actually I don't think that is true. The most important job is coming into situation where the likely hold of scoring is high and shutting the scoring threat down.

Even if a guy shuts the other team down in the 7th or 8th...the closer has the power to blow that.

A team can come back if they are scored upon in the 7th or 8th..we have witnessed that a few times this year. We can't come back when Billy Koch blows a save, unless we are at home. And we would then only have 3 outs to do it.

pearso66
05-11-2004, 03:51 PM
If Borchard and Rauch arent going to be given another shot in our system, I hvae no problem trading them for Beltran. But I don't know if I'd give up Sweeney, who in a couple years could be the replacement for Beltran. If it could be done, send along Wunch, as he seems to be up a creek with this team also. And maybe a mid level prospect if need be. This wouldnt hurt us as Rauch and Borchard have been written off by us, and it seems as though Wunch has also.

SoxxoS
05-11-2004, 03:52 PM
Originally posted by pearso66
If Borchard and Rauch arent going to be given another shot in our system, I hvae no problem trading them for Beltran. But I don't know if I'd give up Sweeney, who in a couple years could be the replacement for Beltran. If it could be done, send along Wunch, as he seems to be up a creek with this team also. And maybe a mid level prospect if need be. This wouldnt hurt us as Rauch and Borchard have been written off by us, and it seems as though Wunch has also.

I don't give up Sweeney for any rent-a-player. Matter of fact, I would have a tough time giving up Sweeney for anyone.

Dadawg_77
05-11-2004, 03:56 PM
Originally posted by SoxxoS
Even if a guy shuts the other team down in the 7th or 8th...the closer has the power to blow that.

A team can come back if they are scored upon in the 7th or 8th..we have witnessed that a few times this year. We can't come back when Billy Koch blows a save, unless we are at home. And we would then only have 3 outs to do it.

Preventing runs is preventing runs. I trust Koch could protect a three run lead in the ninth, but I wouldn't trust him with any inherited runners. Closing is overrated in my opinion.

Randar68
05-11-2004, 03:59 PM
Originally posted by pearso66
If Borchard and Rauch arent going to be given another shot in our system, I hvae no problem trading them for Beltran. But I don't know if I'd give up Sweeney, who in a couple years could be the replacement for Beltran. If it could be done, send along Wunch, as he seems to be up a creek with this team also. And maybe a mid level prospect if need be. This wouldnt hurt us as Rauch and Borchard have been written off by us, and it seems as though Wunch has also.

Huh? Sweeney has NO chance of playing CF. He's a RF'er or a 1B-man. Beltran's replacement?

rahulsekhar
05-11-2004, 04:03 PM
Originally posted by pearso66
If it could be done, send along Wunch, as he seems to be up a creek with this team also. And maybe a mid level prospect if need be. This wouldnt hurt us as Rauch and Borchard have been written off by us, and it seems as though Wunch has also.
Another implication that the Sox are somehow screwing Kelly or have it in for him.

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but the Kelly Wunsch of today compared to the one we knew (and loved) is like 5mph slower, and is having trouble getting out AAA hitters.

It's unfortunate, but what have you done for me lately is the watchword here. He WAS effective, but until he is effective again I dont' want him anywhere near the ML roster. 5mph is a lot to lose off of a fastball, especially when you weren't approaching 100 in the first place. If he needs to learn to pitch at his new speed, he can do that in the minors, or he can get his strength back, then, if he's better than the guy we currently have in that role, he should have his spot back. Not before.

pearso66
05-11-2004, 04:06 PM
Sorry Randar, for a minute I got Sweeney and Anderson mixed up.

Voice of Reason
05-11-2004, 04:09 PM
Out of the players we could conceivably acquire from non contending teams here's my priority list (note that I doubt we'd get any of these guys):

Randy Johnson
Carlos Beltran
Jose Vidro

I don't know where I see Johnson going, maybe Boston, they still want to one up the Arod trade. I see Beltran heading to Oakland and the Yankees finding some way to trade for Vidro. I hear Dioneer Navarro is having a good season so far.

Randar68
05-11-2004, 04:10 PM
Originally posted by rahulsekhar
Another implication that the Sox are somehow screwing Kelly or have it in for him.

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but the Kelly Wunsch of today compared to the one we knew (and loved) is like 5mph slower, and is having trouble getting out AAA hitters.

It's unfortunate, but what have you done for me lately is the watchword here. He WAS effective, but until he is effective again I dont' want him anywhere near the ML roster. 5mph is a lot to lose off of a fastball, especially when you weren't approaching 100 in the first place. If he needs to learn to pitch at his new speed, he can do that in the minors, or he can get his strength back, then, if he's better than the guy we currently have in that role, he should have his spot back. Not before.

What I thought would have been a "duh", but again, well said. It's unfortunate for Kelly, but enough already with all the re-hashing of this dead-horse argument...

Randar68
05-11-2004, 04:10 PM
Originally posted by pearso66
Sorry Randar, for a minute I got Sweeney and Anderson mixed up.

No problem.