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Lip Man 1
05-10-2004, 01:03 AM
Bob Foltman in the Tribune had some interesting things to say about the weekend series in Toronto and the team in general after 30 games. Submitted for discussion...

"The Sox have become a pretty predictable team. Again Sunday they jumped out to a lead when Frank Thomas missed a grand slam by a couple of feet, settling for a two-run single in the third inning.

But Toronto came right back in the bottom of the third on a single by Howie Clark and a two-run homer from Frank Catalanotto.

Meanwhile, the Sox offense continued to slumber. The Sox are two games better than they were after 30 games last season, but the offense is starting to resemble the unit that took an extended hiatus last May.

"We're struggling right now," right fielder Magglio Ordonez said. "We're not putting anything together."

Even when they got runners on base, the Sox were unable to make anything happen. Lee and Joe Crede were thrown out trying to steal and the Sox hit into two double plays.

The Sox finished the trip 2-4 and return home to face the Baltimore Orioles on Tuesday before the Minnesota Twins come to town for what may be a litmus-test series when it comes to the AL Central race."

For the Sox to prove they are legitimate contenders, they'll have to start hitting the way they believe they can.

"We're going to hit," Ordonez said.

Lip

DrCrawdad
05-10-2004, 01:12 AM
I didn't see the game on Sunday. I read the box score and Konerko left six on base AND hit into a double play!

I say get Ross Gload into the line-up for a week or so in left-field and first base. How much worse can Gload be compared to Lee and Konerko at this point?

kittle42
05-10-2004, 01:13 AM
Originally posted by DrCrawdad
I say get Ross Gload into the line-up for a week or so in left-field and first base. How much worse can Gload be compared to Lee and Konerko at this point?

A lot. I expect more out of someone I respect here.

soxnut
05-10-2004, 01:21 AM
I still think they're going to be ok. But I think they need to get rid of Lee and Konerko. I think those two are in some way the entire reason this offense has it's struggles. In the back of my mind I always put the blame on them. They need a hitter who can pick up other guys when the team is slumping and a guy who can come through without resorting to "swinging for the fences" --that guy is Carl Everett---the biggest "let go" mistake in the offseason. :(:

DrCrawdad
05-10-2004, 01:29 AM
Originally posted by kittle42
A lot. I expect more out of someone I respect here.

Have you been watching Lee this season and Konerko since the 2002 All-Star break?

batmanZoSo
05-10-2004, 02:11 AM
Originally posted by soxnut
I still think they're going to be ok. But I think they need to get rid of Lee and Konerko. I think those two are in some way the entire reason this offense has it's struggles. In the back of my mind I always put the blame on them. They need a hitter who can pick up other guys when the team is slumping and a guy who can come through without resorting to "swinging for the fences" --that guy is Carl Everett---the biggest "let go" mistake in the offseason. :(:

Bingo.

Everett was not only clutch, but better than both of them...and never has a player gotted a completely untrue bad rap about his character. I wanted to trade Lee and re-sign Everett. I think he's hurt now but if he is there's no reason it would've happened if he were with us.

Those two gotta go somehow. Even in June 2002, Konerko wasn't worth 8 million to this team. KW should've known that was a career year (or career half) and realized that we shouldn't be spending big money on big slow power hitters when we had nothing up the middle and nothing on the horizon.

CanOfCorn
05-10-2004, 02:15 AM
Yeah, Everett's bad reputation was due to disagreements with a manager who, in most opinions, was not a good manager (Jimy Williams). The guy has always played to win.

I wonder how much he slowed Rowand's development, though. Rowand was coming around at the time Everett jumped aboard. He lost his momentum, and Everett gave us a good half before going to Montreal.

And it's embarrassing that we lost him to Montreal.

gosox41
05-10-2004, 08:06 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Bob Foltman in the Tribune had some interesting things to say about the weekend series in Toronto and the team in general after 30 games. Submitted for discussion...

"The Sox have become a pretty predictable team. Again Sunday they jumped out to a lead when Frank Thomas missed a grand slam by a couple of feet, settling for a two-run single in the third inning.

But Toronto came right back in the bottom of the third on a single by Howie Clark and a two-run homer from Frank Catalanotto.

Meanwhile, the Sox offense continued to slumber. The Sox are two games better than they were after 30 games last season, but the offense is starting to resemble the unit that took an extended hiatus last May.

"We're struggling right now," right fielder Magglio Ordonez said. "We're not putting anything together."

Even when they got runners on base, the Sox were unable to make anything happen. Lee and Joe Crede were thrown out trying to steal and the Sox hit into two double plays.

The Sox finished the trip 2-4 and return home to face the Baltimore Orioles on Tuesday before the Minnesota Twins come to town for what may be a litmus-test series when it comes to the AL Central race."

For the Sox to prove they are legitimate contenders, they'll have to start hitting the way they believe they can.

"We're going to hit," Ordonez said.

Lip

Lip,

I'mn glad you posted this. I was out of town all weekend, but have been noticing the same distrubing trand with the offense.


It's been rehashed here a thousand times, but KW has faile to address it. The Sox were built around 4 power hitters who as a group can't run all that well. Add Crede to the mix, even if he'll only hit about 20-25 HR's. It isn't a recipe for improve. What's good having all this power when so many guys are currently struggling to get on base (there I go with that dreaded OBP)?

The Sox need to make a move to break this up and soon.


Bob

soxtalker
05-10-2004, 09:55 AM
Based on the past 2 or 3 years, Konerko seems to be a very streaky hitter. When he's hitting well, as he did to start the season, he's unstoppable. When he isn't, well, there can be a lot of GIDP's. I don't recall the same streaky tendency for Lee, so this is more troubling.

The problem is that it is a bit difficult to trade these (or any other) players while they are doing poorly. Hopefully, Walker can turn them around soon, and, yes, then I'd like to see them traded.

jabrch
05-10-2004, 10:37 AM
Originally posted by CanOfCorn
Yeah, Everett's bad reputation was due to disagreements with a manager who, in most opinions, was not a good manager (Jimy Williams). The guy has always played to win.

I wonder how much he slowed Rowand's development, though. Rowand was coming around at the time Everett jumped aboard. He lost his momentum, and Everett gave us a good half before going to Montreal.

And it's embarrassing that we lost him to Montreal.

Everett is a bad defensive CF. We needed to move on and try a different course of action this year. I had no problem giving the job to Rowand despite the fact that I didn't think he was the answer. Now I am ready to give it to Harris. But I don't think Everett (as much as I did like him) should be playing CF every day.

soxnut
05-10-2004, 11:00 AM
Originally posted by jabrch
Everett is a bad defensive CF. We needed to move on and try a different course of action this year. I had no problem giving the job to Rowand despite the fact that I didn't think he was the answer. Now I am ready to give it to Harris. But I don't think Everett (as much as I did like him) should be playing CF every day.

We didn't have to keep him in CF. If the Sox got rid of Lee, he could have played LF. Or, somehow he could have DH'd on certaind days. Regardless of his defense, this team has too many streaky "swing for the fences" hitters----Everett was not one of them. He is exactly the type of HITTER this team desperately needs.

batmanZoSo
05-10-2004, 11:05 AM
Originally posted by soxtalker
Based on the past 2 or 3 years, Konerko seems to be a very streaky hitter. When he's hitting well, as he did to start the season, he's unstoppable. When he isn't, well, there can be a lot of GIDP's. I don't recall the same streaky tendency for Lee, so this is more troubling.

Well search harder. Lee hasn't really improved at all since 2000. Last year was a slight rebound but overall he hasn't done nearly enough at the plate to justify his below average defense and poor base running. He's been consistent and being incosistent.


Originally posted by jabrch


Everett is a bad defensive CF. We needed to move on and try a different course of action this year. I had no problem giving the job to Rowand despite the fact that I didn't think he was the answer. Now I am ready to give it to Harris. But I don't think Everett (as much as I did like him) should be playing CF every day.

Everett held his own out there, but like soxnut said, he would've played left in this scenario and he'd be a big upgrade over Lee in all aspects of the game.

soxnut
05-10-2004, 11:10 AM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo


Everett held his own out there, but like soxnut said, he would've played left in this scenario and he'd be a big upgrade over Lee in all aspects of the game.


Hey, thanks. :smile:

Lip Man 1
05-10-2004, 01:52 PM
What shocked me was the realization that the Sox are only two games better at this point in the season then last year. Considering how well I thought they had been playing that was like a cold slap in the face.

I guess that's how fast things can change. They played poorly for three days and it takes away some of the good they accomplished that took them almost a month to achieve.

Lip

jeremyb1
05-10-2004, 02:22 PM
It's funny because I was struck by the opposite angles in the story.

Miller took advantage of a struggling Sox offense with seven strong innings, allowing seven hits, two runs and striking out seven.

"I don't think this kid, with all due respect, is a strikeout pitcher," Guillen said of Miller, who was making his third start of the season.

Miller had just eight strikeouts in his previous 11 innings pitched but he baffled the Sox.

I tend to think Ozzie probably doesn't think any pitcher can be a strikeout pitcher unless he throws 98 mph so I can't say I respect his opinion. Last season Miller struck out approximately 70 batters in 100 innings in the majors. Not a bad ratio by any means. Furthermore I love Foltman's inane comment that Miller had just 8 k's in 11 ip. That's better than most pitchers including our entire starting staff this season I believe.

"That guy was awesome," Sox first baseman Paul Konerko said. "His slider was the best I've seen in the big leagues."

"Sometimes you have to tip your hat" to the pitcher, Konerko said. "On the whole, we've seen some good pitching."

Sometimes pitchers do throw good games. Sometimes bad pitchers throw great games, sometimes great pitcher throw bad games. The offense is not the only determinant of how many runs a team scores. Stranger things have happened than facing three strong pitching performances that strangle a team's offense in a row, especially when two of the pitchers have strong major league track records.

jeremyb1
05-10-2004, 02:24 PM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo
Everett held his own out there, but like soxnut said, he would've played left in this scenario and he'd be a big upgrade over Lee in all aspects of the game.

Have you ever seen Everett play the outfield? He's a 33 year old with bad knees. I don't think there's anyway he's anywhere near as Carlos defensively.

voodoochile
05-10-2004, 07:58 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
What shocked me was the realization that the Sox are only two games better at this point in the season then last year. Considering how well I thought they had been playing that was like a cold slap in the face.

I guess that's how fast things can change. They played poorly for three days and it takes away some of the good they accomplished that took them almost a month to achieve.

Lip

Well, let's examine that concept. If they are 2 games better now, doesn't that mean they are on a pace to finish 12 games better than last year?