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Lip Man 1
05-09-2004, 11:38 PM
WGN-TV's Instant Replay Show had a feature on new Sox marketing director Brooks Boyer tonight. The story was OK, it didn't say anything earth shattering nor did Dan Rohn ask any tough questions... however something Roan said after the piece aired as they were going to a commercial break caught my attention.

Rohn said the biggest challenge facing Boyer was changing the 'defeatist' attitude that the fans have and in some cases members of management.

If Rohn meant the guy who goes around saying "Chicago has always been a Cubs town..." then he should have called out Uncle Jerry by name.

If any fans have a 'defeatist' attitude I'd say no World Series appearances since 1959, constant carping by management about the budget and the organization treating fans and the media as enemies have given them some dammned good reasons.

Just my opinion.

Lip

soxnut
05-09-2004, 11:54 PM
Ok with all that said, and it is your opinion, the thing is, Sox fans are still too negative. What's happened in the past is past. The past does not equal the future. But try telling that to a Sox fan. Sox fans should have more faith than they do. If things don't come out the way you've hoped, so what, at least you've hopefullly enjoyed yourself a little. And by faith I'm not talking blind Cub fan faith either. But I think if people played "word association" and the words"Sox Fan" came up, I think my word would be "negative" or "crabby" unfortunately. :(: But that's not my attitude. :smile:

Lip Man 1
05-09-2004, 11:59 PM
"Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it..."

With respect Soxnut, the past directly effects this organization. They continue to make the same mistakes over and over and over and refuse to be accountable for it.

The only thing that matters when all is said and done is winning and by any stretch the Sox have been 'less then successful' at it wouldn't you say?

What pissed me off was Rohn's implication that the fans were guilty of this, were the cause of this 'defeatism.'

I disagree, the fans are a product of the genius that has run this team almost into irrelevance after 22 years.

It's incumbant on the business to change their practices and policies to please its customers...not the other way around.

Lip

inta
05-10-2004, 12:04 AM
what the hell.
if anything i'd say sox fans are the opposite of a defeatist attitude.

we dont celebrate a team called "the loveable losers", we don't resign ourselves to packing a stadium during afternoon games for mediocre teams year after year (granted we dont pack the stadium period... but still), and we stay sox fans in the face of world cub domination.

if anything it seems to me the media is obsessed with trying to figure out a reason for why the sox dont root for the cubs in this supposed "banner year" of theirs. you can use alot of adjectives to describe sox fans, but "defeatist" is just the completely wrong adjective.

i much prefer "die-hard".

i think the real issue is that there's groups of hardcore fans of each team in chicago, and then there's a large fair weather/"chicago fan" group of fans in chicago that can fluctuate between teams. unfortunately the past 10 years or so we've been stuck with only the hardcore contingent while the northside has become a yuppie playground.

Lip Man 1
05-10-2004, 12:06 AM
If you are interested Dan's e-mail address I believe is:

droan@tribune.com


Lip

soxnut
05-10-2004, 12:13 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
"Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it..."

With respect Soxnut, the past directly effects this organization. They continue to make the same mistakes over and over and over and refuse to be accountable for it.

The only thing that matters when all is said and done is winning and by any stretch the Sox have been 'less then successful' at it wouldn't you say?

What pissed me off was Rohn's implication that the fans were guilty of this, were the cause of this 'defeatism.'

I disagree, the fans are a product of the genius that has run this team almost into irrelevance after 22 years.

It's incumbant on the business to change their practices and policies to please its customers...not the other way around.

Lip



I know the Sox have not been successful, but I'm still a fan. And I don't let the actions of other determine how I feel, and I'm not going to be a negative crabby Sox fan. I love my team and there's no way I'm going to let the mistakes of others make me into a negative crab either.

MarqSox
05-10-2004, 07:43 AM
We absolutely have a defeatist attitude -- to argue otherwise is kind of laughable. Just look at the Sox Clubhouse threads on any given day -- if the Sox won that day, the general attitude is "Well, we were lucky to win, but here's 3 things that sucked ..." If we lost, suddenly we're the worst team in sports.

You can argue all you want that 86 years of futility will do that to a fan base, and I wouldn't disagree -- but that doesn't mean we don't have a defeatist attitude. It's there and it's readily apparent.

SSN721
05-10-2004, 07:54 AM
Originally posted by MarqSox
We absolutely have a defeatist attitude -- to argue otherwise is kind of laughable. Just look at the Sox Clubhouse threads on any given day -- if the Sox won that day, the general attitude is "Well, we were lucky to win, but here's 3 things that sucked ..." If we lost, suddenly we're the worst team in sports.

You can argue all you want that 86 years of futility will do that to a fan base, and I wouldn't disagree -- but that doesn't mean we don't have a defeatist attitude. It's there and it's readily apparent.

Very sad but very true. Its hard, but everytime we lose I think back to losses the last few yearas and how we have always come up a few games short. So each lose kind of takes me to what history has shown me of this team and does give me an occasional "defeatist" attitude. That being said I am still not discouraged about this team yet. I still have high hopes for this season and hope most others here havent already written this team off.

Rocky Soprano
05-10-2004, 08:37 AM
Did you guys notice that they said expect a major announcement from the Sox soon?

Dan H
05-10-2004, 09:40 AM
If we have a defeatist attitude, it isn't hard to come by. 1 World Series since 1919 will do that to you. Otherwise, this is just another example of blaming the fans. Does the Sox and the media want us to be optimistic? Okay, then the team should go out and win something. We read everywhere that Sox fans make up too many excuses for not going out to the park. The team and the media make too many excuses for the team not winning.

soxnut
05-10-2004, 09:40 AM
Originally posted by Rocky Soprano
Did you guys notice that they said expect a major announcement from the Sox soon?


I didn't get to see the report, but that sounds interesting. Was there anything more specific than that. I heard that they are going to announce Phase V this summer, but other than that, what else? The mascot? Lower beer prices? Hawk signing during the 7th inning stretch?

soxnut
05-10-2004, 09:41 AM
Originally posted by Dan H
If we have a defeatist attitude, it isn't hard to come by. 1 World Series since 1919 will do that to you. Otherwise, this is just another example of blaming the fans. Does the Sox and the media want us to be optimistic? Okay, then the team should go out and win something. We read everywhere that Sox fans make up too many excuses for not going out to the park. The team and the media make too many excuses for the team not winning.


There's no excuse for a defeatist attitude.

MisterB
05-10-2004, 10:00 AM
Can anyone who caught the broadcast please clarify what exactly was said by Rohn that stated/implied that the fans were the cause of their own defeatist attitude? If he simply called Sox fans defeatist, I'd take that more as a statement of fact (unfortunately). From the description in the original post, I don't see where blame was being laid on the fans. Actually, by stating that Boyer has to try to change the fans' attitude implies that the Sox organization was largely responsible for creating that attitude in the first place.

MarqSox
05-10-2004, 11:15 AM
He said something to the effect of "There tends to be somewhat of a defeatist attitude on the South Side that Boyer will have to work hard to change." It wasn't a cheap shot at the fans, IMO, just an accurate evaluation of the new guy's job description.

jackbrohamer
05-10-2004, 11:22 AM
Originally posted by MarqSox
He said something to the effect of "There tends to be somewhat of a defeatist attitude on the South Side that Boyer will have to work hard to change."

I don't even know what that means. I don't see people walking around at Sox games expecting them to lose. Sox fans don't have expectations that their team will be in the World Series every year, but 1959 was a long time ago, it's just a fact.

ewokpelts
05-10-2004, 11:42 AM
Originally posted by jackbrohamer
I don't even know what that means. I don't see people walking around at Sox games expecting them to lose. Sox fans don't have expectations that their team will be in the World Series every year, but 1959 was a long time ago, it's just a fact.

think of a bunker mentality.
Gene

Medford Bobby
05-10-2004, 11:43 AM
Hey Lip, I saw that piece last too, and was taken back by that remark. I wonder if Rich King had come out of that story if he would have said that too.....Also this new guy Brooks must be a stinkin genius if they can still bring fans into Bulls game with their crappy teams. I guess there is alot of entertainment factor in fat guys dancing around, cheerleaders, and other distractions so it does not remind you how bad the product on the court is. Hey, if this guy can sell gasoline to the devil, then maybe they believe more dog nights, Elvis nights and late night camp overs will bring in the Sox fans then just coming out just to watch a piss-puke team on the field.



:reinsy "We got so many surprises ahead that even I might forget it's all your fault"!!!!!!!!!!

MarqSox
05-10-2004, 11:52 AM
Originally posted by jackbrohamer
I don't even know what that means. I don't see people walking around at Sox games expecting them to lose. Sox fans don't have expectations that their team will be in the World Series every year, but 1959 was a long time ago, it's just a fact.
It means Sox fans go out of their way to emphasize the negatives in any situation. Remember 2000? Instead of saying "Hell yeah, we've got a 10-game lead in June!" we were saying "Oh crap, we've got a 10-game lead, this is setting us up for a monumental collapse down the stretch."

That, my friends, is a defeatist attitude.

BeerHandle
05-10-2004, 11:57 AM
Originally posted by soxnut
I didn't get to see the report, but that sounds interesting. Was there anything more specific than that. I heard that they are going to announce Phase V this summer, but other than that, what else? The mascot? Lower beer prices? Hawk signing during the 7th inning stretch?

I believe it is Phase V. I shot an email to a contact at ISFA.

Lip Man 1
05-10-2004, 12:44 PM
Here is Rohn's exact quote (I just rewatched the tape) and my impressions:

"Sometimes there is a bit of a defeatist attitude on the South Side, that's something Brooks Boyer will have to change among fans and in some cases team personnel to make the Sox a big entertainment factor here in Chicago."

To me he singled out the fans as being the cause of the problem which is absolutely incorrect. The reference to 'team personnel' to me refers to the players not ownership. Looking back I think I was wrong to think he was talking about Uncle Jerry.

Now in that context perhaps the players have been part of the issue but again the real problem with the Sox is ownership and Roan who has been in Chicago since 1985 should know better.

It's current ownership that hasn't won anything, keeps the payroll down, talks about how all Sox fans care about is the Cubs (yet goes around saying stupid things like 'Chicago has always been a Cubs town' , and putting on a Braves hat at the Sox picnic in 1998 and telling fans to go home and 'root for the Braves,' who were playing the Cubs in the postseason) and treats the media like scum then gets angry that the Sox don't get any publicity.

In my opinion Roan was completely wrong with his comments.

Lip

Randar68
05-10-2004, 12:57 PM
Originally posted by BeerHandle
I believe it is Phase V. I shot an email to a contact at ISFA.

Outside of a new neighborhood development plan or the train stop, this is the only other thing that is likely to qualify as a "major announcement" and it's something we have all been expected to some degree.

Wasn't last season's announcement made in early June or Late May?

MarqSox
05-10-2004, 01:04 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
To me he singled out the fans as being the cause of the problem which is absolutely incorrect. The reference to 'team personnel' to me refers to the players not ownership. Looking back I think I was wrong to think he was talking about Uncle Jerry.
I agree he was singling out the fans, but I don't think he was wrong to do so. He wasn't BLAMING the fans, simply saying that fans have a defeatist attitude, which is true. Dave Wills has talked about this many times on his postgame show. Sox fans are unwilling and/or unable to enjoy any little hint of success, they only dwell on the assumed impending failure. Until this attitude is reversed, attendance will continue to lag.

ewokpelts
05-10-2004, 01:17 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
Outside of a new neighborhood development plan or the train stop, this is the only other thing that is likely to qualify as a "major announcement" and it's something we have all been expected to some degree.

Wasn't last season's announcement made in early June or Late May?

The phase 4 announcement was made in November.
Gene

BeerHandle
05-10-2004, 01:19 PM
Originally posted by BeerHandle
I believe it is Phase V. I shot an email to a contact at ISFA.

PHASE V
I was able to learn that one element for Phase V (work to begin following the ’04 season) is farther along in the planning stage so it could be annouced around June. The other elements of Phase V may not be official until August. Therefore an announcement would not be made until August/Spetember. (this is when they have announced the Phases over the past few years).

MisterB
05-10-2004, 01:35 PM
"Sometimes there is a bit of a defeatist attitude on the South Side, that's something Brooks Boyer will have to change among fans and in some cases team personnel to make the Sox a big entertainment factor here in Chicago."
(my emphasis added)

I don't see where he's assigning blame in that statement, merely acknowledging a certain attitude and who holds it. If he had said "Sox fans have created a defeatist attitude on the south side..." I'd certainly take exception to it. Otherwise he's just saying it exists (which 10 minutes on this board would verify). Of course there's not much Boyer can do about it, anyway, since he's not directly effecting the quality of play on the field or in a position to muzzle Reinsdorf's fan-unfriendly yammering.

inta
05-10-2004, 02:55 PM
From Merriams Websters dictionary.

Defeatist:
Main Entry: de·feat·ist
Pronunciation: di-'fE-"ti-z&m, dE-
Function: noun or adjective
: acceptance or expectation of or resignation to defeat
- de·feat·ist /-tist/ noun or adjective

like i said. it's a completely wrong term to use to describe sox fans. negative? yes. defeatist? look to the northside.

i dont know what post game threads you guys are reading, but i NEVER see acceptance of defeat on this forum. if anything WSI and sox fans in general are extremely intolerant of anything short of winning.

FarWestChicago
05-10-2004, 05:23 PM
Originally posted by MarqSox
I agree he was singling out the fans, but I don't think he was wrong to do so. He wasn't BLAMING the fans, simply saying that fans have a defeatist attitude, which is true. Dave Wills has talked about this many times on his postgame show. Sox fans are unwilling and/or unable to enjoy any little hint of success, they only dwell on the assumed impending failure. Until this attitude is reversed, attendance will continue to lag. Now wait a minute! What would Lip and a NEGATIVE ATTITUDE have to do with each other? Lip would be a Panglossian ball of joy if it weren't for Reinsy. Just ask him. :cool:

dickallen15
05-10-2004, 05:27 PM
Originally posted by Rocky Soprano
Did you guys notice that they said expect a major announcement from the Sox soon?

Oh please let it be that they are changing the color of the seats to green. The White Sox will win the World Series if that happens .

MarqSox
05-10-2004, 11:09 PM
Originally posted by inta
From Merriams Websters dictionary.

Defeatist:
Main Entry: de·feat·ist
Pronunciation: di-'fE-"ti-z&m, dE-
Function: noun or adjective
: acceptance or expectation of or resignation to defeat
- de·feat·ist /-tist/ noun or adjective

like i said. it's a completely wrong term to use to describe sox fans. negative? yes. defeatist? look to the northside.

i dont know what post game threads you guys are reading, but i NEVER see acceptance of defeat on this forum. if anything WSI and sox fans in general are extremely intolerant of anything short of winning.
OK, Sox fans don't ACCEPT defeat, but they definitely EXPECT it. Often, they are resigned to its inevitability. Thus, 2/3 of the definition fits, which is enough to legitmately use the term.

Randar68
05-10-2004, 11:12 PM
Originally posted by MarqSox
OK, Sox fans don't ACCEPT defeat, but they definitely EXPECT it. Often, they are resigned to its inevitability. Thus, 2/3 of the definition fits, which is enough to legitmately use the term.

LOL, MarqSox. Thanks for the laugh!

TornLabrum
05-10-2004, 11:22 PM
Originally posted by MarqSox
OK, Sox fans don't ACCEPT defeat, but they definitely EXPECT it. Often, they are resigned to its inevitability. Thus, 2/3 of the definition fits, which is enough to legitmately use the term.

There's a reason for this. It's called H. Vickery's Law, and it appears in the WSI dictionary.

MarqSox
05-10-2004, 11:31 PM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
There's a reason for this. It's called H. Vickery's Law, and it appears in the WSI dictionary.
Well, I won't dispute that fans have good reason for their defeatist attitudes. I'm only arguing that such an attitude exists. Whether it's warranted is a different discussion entirely.

owensmouth
05-11-2004, 04:14 AM
There is a certain resignation that goes along with being a Chicago baseball fan. It really can be seen when one or both of the Chicago teams start playing well and get into first place towards the end of the season. It has been going on in this town since the 1920s.

If you don't believe there is, look at what the sportswriters for the various papers say after the 4th of July. Virtually all of them will have one or more columns saying in essence, "Yeah, we're doing well, but the sky is gonna fall. It always does" And every baseball fan in Chicago then sees his/her team lose and they accept it.

The reality is that no city in Major League Baseball has been damned quite like Chicago. We have had a pair of parallel strings of ownership that have produced a total of zero World Series Champions for a total of over 160 baseball years!

The current owners, on both sides of the city, have been merely the latest in the continuum of failure.