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MRKARNO
05-07-2004, 06:32 PM
No. 22 Jose Valentin!

JOSEEEEE JOSE JOSE JOSEEEEEEEEEEE
JOSEEEEEEEEEEEE
JOSEEEEEEEEEEEE

Ozzie is doing this for a good reason in my opinion. It's important to get Valentin back in the groove right off the bat.


Odds on Jose K-ing in the first at bat: even money

Odds on Jose Homering in the first at bat: 20 to 1


I bet you all that he homers in the first at bat just to prove all of the Jose haters wrong. I know he was pathetic in AAA ball but he can laugh it off and get back on track

maurice
05-07-2004, 06:36 PM
Odds on Jose striking out in the first at bat: 2 to 1
Odds of Jose making an error today: 3 to 1

SoxxoS
05-07-2004, 06:39 PM
Odds or Jose getting the golden sombrerro...4-1.

SpartanSoxFan
05-07-2004, 06:45 PM
All I know is that Uribe better stay in the lineup somewhere as long as he keeps swinging a hot bat.

jackbrohamer
05-07-2004, 06:52 PM
I'd be surprised if Ozzie doesn't keep both Valentin and Uribe in the lineup at least until Uribe cools off a lot. Keeping Harris's "bat" in the lineup can't be that big of an issue with him.

hose
05-07-2004, 06:57 PM
I'm glad to see Jose back in the line up.

The Sox are going to get to start putting up some crooked numbers on a regular basis, might as well be tonight.

:manos

Saracen
05-07-2004, 07:33 PM
No one laid odds on a pop-out bunt?

jeremyb1
05-07-2004, 07:47 PM
Gotta love the logic of keeping the guy that is one of the best fielders on the team and at absolute worst the second best hitter of the three on the bench. Ozzie was very smart to put Jose in the lineup instead of Harris because 1) Jose is a more productive hitter and hence helps the team win more 2) a middle infield of Jose and Uribe - your best two middle infielders - with a groundball pitcher on the mound is pretty smart.

DrummerGeorgefan
05-07-2004, 07:56 PM
I want odds on a 2 error game

Saracen
05-07-2004, 08:08 PM
Mr. E. Short

fquaye149
05-07-2004, 08:34 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
Gotta love the logic of keeping the guy that is one of the best fielders on the team and at absolute worst the second best hitter of the three on the bench. Ozzie was very smart to put Jose in the lineup instead of Harris because 1) Jose is a more productive hitter and hence helps the team win more 2) a middle infield of Jose and Uribe - your best two middle infielders - with a groundball pitcher on the mound is pretty smart.


this is the number one problem with statheads:

they see/care nothing about "upside"


yes as the numbers stand now, jose's numbers are better than willie's

however, jose's numbers if you really look at them are snoozers. .. .

with the exception of 25 hr per year, nothing else about jose is much better (read: any better) than Willie's stats - especially this year.


you may not be able to ever have TOO much power, but you can certainly have too LITTLE speed. and what is the number one knock on the white sox lineup.


sure willie's speed doesn't matter if he never gets on base . . .but his obp around .300 is not a whole lot worse than jose's and he only has potential to get better

jose has absolutely NO potential to get better - in fact, with the way he's been playing this year and coming right off an injury and a poor rehab stint, it seems logical he is in fact at a valley in his performance range.

jeremyb1
05-08-2004, 01:57 AM
Originally posted by fquaye149
this is the number one problem with statheads:

they see/care nothing about "upside"

yes as the numbers stand now, jose's numbers are better than willie's

however, jose's numbers if you really look at them are snoozers. ..

with the exception of 25 hr per year, nothing else about jose is much better (read: any better) than Willie's stats - especially this year.

you may not be able to ever have TOO much power, but you can certainly have too LITTLE speed. and what is the number one knock on the white sox lineup.

sure willie's speed doesn't matter if he never gets on base . . .but his obp around .300 is not a whole lot worse than jose's and he only has potential to get better

jose has absolutely NO potential to get better - in fact, with the way he's been playing this year and coming right off an injury and a poor rehab stint, it seems logical he is in fact at a valley in his performance range.

The argument that we should play Harris because we don't know he could be as good or better than Valentin is a horrible one. We can be quite sure he will be. You give no reason in this thread as to why 25 home runs isn't all that great but speed is. Basically you're saying we don't know Willie won't become an all-star so we should make sure he won't and sacrifice wins for that purpose.

Randar68
05-08-2004, 11:04 AM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
The argument that we should play Harris because we don't know he could be as good or better than Valentin is a horrible one. We can be quite sure he will be.


Umm, Harris has a sIGNIFICANTLY higher minior league career average and OBP than everyone's favoritie "one more chance" Aaron Rowand.

SSN721
05-08-2004, 11:23 AM
Originally posted by fquaye149
this is the number one problem with statheads:

they see/care nothing about "upside"


yes as the numbers stand now, jose's numbers are better than willie's

however, jose's numbers if you really look at them are snoozers. .. .

with the exception of 25 hr per year, nothing else about jose is much better (read: any better) than Willie's stats - especially this year.


you may not be able to ever have TOO much power, but you can certainly have too LITTLE speed. and what is the number one knock on the white sox lineup.


sure willie's speed doesn't matter if he never gets on base . . .but his obp around .300 is not a whole lot worse than jose's and he only has potential to get better

jose has absolutely NO potential to get better - in fact, with the way he's been playing this year and coming right off an injury and a poor rehab stint, it seems logical he is in fact at a valley in his performance range.

I think this is post of the month in my eyes. I couldnt have said it any better. Would Willie have done any worse then Jose last night? I dont think he would have done worse, in fact I think he would have been more productive for our team last night. I know it was Joses first game back, so hopefully he will knock the rust off and improve but I honestly dont know what we shoudl expect from him. He hit what? .237 last year? Certainly not any better then Harris. ANd when Harris gets on base he is a speed threat, last night it seemed Jose was a station to station runner. I would say they are close to a wash right now except for Joses power. But I see much more potential and upside from Harris and we already know what Joses gonna do. His defense seems on a decline from last year which I thought was pretty good. If he keeps making errors and striking out, I would rather have Harris. At least he wont make the errors and I think his OBP will just get better. ANd I think anyone who hasnt seen Willies improvements since even the beginning this year are letting their dislike of him blind them. I wasnt too happy about him at the beginning of the year but he just seems to be getting better. Yes he has made a couple mistakes but I think he will iron them out pretty soon. He has been improving greatly to me and it will only stunt his improvement keeping him out now. But if we are gonna stick with this lineup of course I hope Valentin reprises his 2000 performance. That would definitely carry us to the playoffs. I just personally would rather see harris in the lineup.

voodoochile
05-08-2004, 11:29 AM
Originally posted by SSN721
I think this is post of the month in my eyes. I couldnt have said it any better. Would Willie have done any worse then Jose last night? I dont think he would have done worse, in fact I think he would have been more productive for our team last night. I know it was Joses first game back, so hopefully he will knock the rust off and improve but I honestly dont know what we shoudl expect from him. He hit what? .237 last year? Certainly not any better then Harris. ANd when Harris gets on base he is a speed threat, last night it seemed Jose was a station to station runner. I would say they are close to a wash right now except for Joses power. But I see much more potential and upside from Harris and we already know what Joses gonna do. His defense seems on a decline from last year which I thought was pretty good. If he keeps making errors and striking out, I would rather have Harris. At least he wont make the errors and I think his OBP will just get better. ANd I think anyone who hasnt seen Willies improvements since even the beginning this year are letting their dislike of him blind them. I wasnt too happy about him at the beginning of the year but he just seems to be getting better. Yes he has made a couple mistakes but I think he will iron them out pretty soon. He has been improving greatly to me and it will only stunt his improvement keeping him out now. But if we are gonna stick with this lineup of course I hope Valentin reprises his 2000 performance. That would definitely carry us to the playoffs. I just personally would rather see harris in the lineup.

Jose also walked 50+ times last year to raise his OBP to something approaching league average.

Jose was also facing a LHP last night while batting lefty, something he has been doing for exactly 8 months now and only for 2 weeks of actual game time when it counted (due to his injury). People assume Harris will get better yet think Jose will be a detriment to the team which makes exactly zero sense, IMO. Now that he has given up on attempting to feebly bat righty, there is good reason to think tha Jose might have a monster offensive year.

You want to replace someone in the lineup with Harris, put him in CF and let Rowand be the 4th OF. Timo has been distinctly unimpressive anyway.

jabrch
05-08-2004, 11:31 AM
I can't imagine that there are people who know something about baseball that think that we should have started Jose vs a lefty. That was absolutely ridiculous. Valentin should have been given one more day off or maybe been called upon to pinch hit vs a righty.

As far as the Rowand/Harris debate, really I don't care much. Neither is a complete player. Both have their flaws. I think I have seen enough of Rowand to say he is not the answer. I think Willie has a bit more to offer the team. But it is a marginal improvement at best to me. I just don't EVER want to see Jose in the lineup vs a lefty. That is inexcusable.

johnny_mostil
05-08-2004, 11:37 AM
Originally posted by jabrch
I can't imagine that there are people who know something about baseball that think that we should have started Jose vs a lefty. That was absolutely ridiculous. Valentin should have been given one more day off or maybe been called upon to pinch hit vs a righty.

As far as the Rowand/Harris debate, really I don't care much. Neither is a complete player. Both have their flaws. I think I have seen enough of Rowand to say he is not the answer. I think Willie has a bit more to offer the team. But it is a marginal improvement at best to me. I just don't EVER want to see Jose in the lineup vs a lefty. That is inexcusable.

A winning organization -- baseball or otherwise -- finds its own weaknesses and systematically attacks them, and does this continuously. CF, 2B are weaknesses. SP5 is a weakness. CL is a weakness. These are obvious.

What concerns me is that the early winning allows them to defer addressing problems.

JRIG
05-08-2004, 11:37 AM
Originally posted by jabrch
I can't imagine that there are people who know something about baseball that think that we should have started Jose vs a lefty. That was absolutely ridiculous. Valentin should have been given one more day off or maybe been called upon to pinch hit vs a righty.

Granted Valentin is not the same hitter against lefties. But in a very, very, very small sample size this year (batting lefty against LHP) he's hitting .273/.360/.409.

Who would you have started instead? Wee Willie? He of the 0-13 and 1 walk against lefties this year and a whopping .153/.208/.153 in 72 career AB against LHP? That's right, zero extra base hits in his career against them. Considering the option, I have no problems with Valentin in the lineup last night. And he did go 1-4 with a walk and an RBI.

batmanZoSo
05-08-2004, 11:38 AM
Originally posted by SSN721
I think this is post of the month in my eyes. I couldnt have said it any better. Would Willie have done any worse then Jose last night? I dont think he would have done worse, in fact I think he would have been more productive for our team last night. I know it was Joses first game back, so hopefully he will knock the rust off and improve but I honestly dont know what we shoudl expect from him. He hit what? .237 last year? Certainly not any better then Harris. ANd when Harris gets on base he is a speed threat, last night it seemed Jose was a station to station runner. I would say they are close to a wash right now except for Joses power. But I see much more potential and upside from Harris and we already know what Joses gonna do. His defense seems on a decline from last year which I thought was pretty good. If he keeps making errors and striking out, I would rather have Harris. At least he wont make the errors and I think his OBP will just get better. ANd I think anyone who hasnt seen Willies improvements since even the beginning this year are letting their dislike of him blind them. I wasnt too happy about him at the beginning of the year but he just seems to be getting better. Yes he has made a couple mistakes but I think he will iron them out pretty soon. He has been improving greatly to me and it will only stunt his improvement keeping him out now. But if we are gonna stick with this lineup of course I hope Valentin reprises his 2000 performance. That would definitely carry us to the playoffs. I just personally would rather see harris in the lineup.

Playing time shouldn't be a problem. Even with Valentin back, Harris can get almost as much playing time as he has been. Harris can play center you know?

If you ask me, Harris should play center against righties, Rowand only hitting against lefties. In turn, Harris should start at second against lefties, and Valentin sits. This is when Uribe plays short.

Uribe can also play third every now and then to give Crede a break. That poor guy never gets a breather no matter how he's struggling. On these days Uribe, Valentin, Harris left to right.

If you do this, Harris will be on the field 80% of the time.

johnny_mostil
05-08-2004, 11:40 AM
Originally posted by JRIG
Granted Valentin is not the same hitter against lefties. But in a very, very, very small sample size this year (batting lefty against LHP) he's hitting .273/.360/.409.

Who would you have started instead? Wee Willie? He of the 0-13 and 1 walk against lefties this year and a whopping .153/.208/.153 in 72 career against LHP? That's right, zero extra base hits in his career against them. Considering the option, I have no problems with Valentin in the lineup last night. And he did go 1-4 with a walk and an RBI.


The option is to get a real second baseman in here, move Uribe to short, and use Valentin as the utility infielder. The problem is doing that cost-effectively is impossible until July, especially with the Yankees obviously on the prowl for a real second baseman. The Orioles are about to have a surplus at second of real players and they won't trade with the Yanks.

batmanZoSo
05-08-2004, 11:46 AM
Originally posted by johnny_mostil
The option is to get a real second baseman in here, move Uribe to short, and use Valentin as the utility infielder. The problem is doing that cost-effectively is impossible until July, especially with the Yankees obviously on the prowl for a real second baseman. The Orioles are about to have a surplus at second of real players and they won't trade with the Yanks.

I keep hearing Jerry Hairston is that who you're talking about? He's no good. I'd rather have what we got. I'd like to have Brian Roberts and we'd probably be set for five years, but the Orioles are in the hunt, they're not trading any starters away.

SSN721
05-08-2004, 01:00 PM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo
Playing time shouldn't be a problem. Even with Valentin back, Harris can get almost as much playing time as he has been. Harris can play center you know?

If you ask me, Harris should play center against righties, Rowand only hitting against lefties. In turn, Harris should start at second against lefties, and Valentin sits. This is when Uribe plays short.

Uribe can also play third every now and then to give Crede a break. That poor guy never gets a breather no matter how he's struggling. On these days Uribe, Valentin, Harris left to right.

If you do this, Harris will be on the field 80% of the time.

This is a good idea, I would have no problem with the lineup set like this at all.