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View Full Version : Anyone concerned that Valentin coming back will hurt the team?


HURT35
05-06-2004, 10:49 AM
I am concerned about having to put Valentin back in at short (because he makes $5 mill.) when we have a better shortstop. Uribe obviously is hitting over his head right now and that will even out over time but he is playing great shortstop and should be left in there. Ozzie raved about Uribe's defense at Sox Fest and we are seeing it now. Uribe is a shortstop not a second baseman, not a third baseman, a shortstop. Jose coming back and being forced back into the mix already has Ozzie channelling Manuel with quotes in the paper like "well one day Uribe can play short with Harris at second (against lefties), another day he can play second, another day spell Crede at third". So we are going to disrupt 3 positions from both an offensive and defensive perspective to put a .240 all or nothing type hitter (HR or SO) in there? We've learned nothing from the last three years?

In my opinion, one of the keys to the Sox offense being better than last years is that they are trying to create a different energy at the top of the line up. Harris and Uribe (and once the game starts Olivo in front of Harris) puts all of the guys that can be disruptive and make something happen clustered together. Harris is a work in progress but the upside is there and he has been improving. In addition to winning this year, the Sox also have to try to create long term solutions (and cost effective ones where possible) at positions. They have an opportunity to do that with short (Uribe) and second base (Harris). Not doing this at the expense of a one dimensional guy on the downside of his career hurts the team. The Sox are trying to recreate themselves on the fly and Jose is a backward step in my opinion.

Please, look past his home run against the Cubs last year and 2000, can anyone remember anything else of note that Jose has done for this team?

The problem is how do you effectively deal with this? Jose basically hits better at Sox park so it be nice to have his bat there in say the seven hole and at say DH. Can't really do that because you have Konerko and Frank. It would be ideal to DH Frank at home and play him at first on the road in my opinion (whole different discussion but related.)

I dont hate Jose and don't claim to have the definitive answer here but just forcing him back in and changing the roles of three others and potentially retarding the long term growth of this team...? When you're on a roll why upset the applecart? At least let some time pass and let this play out a bit. I could rant additionally for hours, but I'll stop.

kittle42
05-06-2004, 10:52 AM
Well, I don't see how it could hurt them. Oh, wait, he had 11 Ks in his first 19 rehab at bats? He had about the same rate before he got hurt? Oh, now I can see.

WSox8404
05-06-2004, 11:26 AM
Originally posted by HURT35
I am concerned about having to put Valentin back in at short (because he makes $5 mill.) when we have a better shortstop. Uribe obviously is hitting over his head right now and that will even out over time but he is playing great shortstop and should be left in there. Ozzie raved about Uribe's defense at Sox Fest and we are seeing it now. Uribe is a shortstop not a second baseman, not a third baseman, a shortstop. Jose coming back and being forced back into the mix already has Ozzie channelling Manuel with quotes in the paper like "well one day Uribe can play short with Harris at second (against lefties), another day he can play second, another day spell Crede at third". So we are going to disrupt 3 positions from both an offensive and defensive perspective to put a .240 all or nothing type hitter (HR or SO) in there? We've learned nothing from the last three years?

In my opinion, one of the keys to the Sox offense being better than last years is that they are trying to create a different energy at the top of the line up. Harris and Uribe (and once the game starts Olivo in front of Harris) puts all of the guys that can be disruptive and make something happen clustered together. Harris is a work in progress but the upside is there and he has been improving. In addition to winning this year, the Sox also have to try to create long term solutions (and cost effective ones where possible) at positions. They have an opportunity to do that with short (Uribe) and second base (Harris). Not doing this at the expense of a one dimensional guy on the downside of his career hurts the team. The Sox are trying to recreate themselves on the fly and Jose is a backward step in my opinion.

Please, look past his home run against the Cubs last year and 2000, can anyone remember anything else of note that Jose has done for this team?

The problem is how do you effectively deal with this? Jose basically hits better at Sox park so it be nice to have his bat there in say the seven hole and at say DH. Can't really do that because you have Konerko and Frank. It would be ideal to DH Frank at home and play him at first on the road in my opinion (whole different discussion but related.)

I dont hate Jose and don't claim to have the definitive answer here but just forcing him back in and changing the roles of three others and potentially retarding the long term growth of this team...? When you're on a roll why upset the applecart? At least let some time pass and let this play out a bit. I could rant additionally for hours, but I'll stop.

Good points. I agree wholehearedly. If Jose is 1 for 27 in the minors, how can we expect him to do good up here. His time is over, and Uribe and Willie's is here. I just hope Guillen sees it our way, and not KW's.

nodiggity59
05-06-2004, 11:33 AM
I still think Valentin's HR threat from the left side is nice to have. If we but him back at SS, Uribe at 2B, and Willie in center, we can hit Valentin after Lee or Konerko and still have the nice top of the order speed/aggresiveness. Plus, Rowand doesn't get to hit. The downside is we lose Uribe's stellar SS play and Rowand's superior (to Willie) arm.

Lip Man 1
05-06-2004, 11:48 AM
I think Ozzie is starting to get a little frustrated with Harris. I saw the shot of him in the dugout when Harris popped up that bunt attempt late in the game.

Let's just say he wasn't happy about it.

Remember Ozzie's mantra from day one...guys have to play the right way, be on time, do the little things or they won't be playing.

Just something to remember with Harris.

Lip

SSN721
05-06-2004, 12:28 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
I think Ozzie is starting to get a little frustrated with Harris. I saw the shot of him in the dugout when Harris popped up that bunt attempt late in the game.

Let's just say he wasn't happy about it.

Remember Ozzie's mantra from day one...guys have to play the right way, be on time, do the little things or they won't be playing.

Just something to remember with Harris.

Lip

Harris has been doing the little things. He has made 3 mistakes that I think are of any note so far this year. Not bad for his first year with full reponsibility playing second. I think every other player has at least one or two that we can all think of. I see no sense at all in pulling Harris when he has been doing nothing but improving in my eyes. He is learning to work the count, making good plays defensively and hitting better. I really think your hatred of Harris is somewhat blinding you to his qualities and improvement. If his pop-up is worthy of being benched, I can find mistakes of equal or more importance that would have benced every other player on this team. I have been very happy with Harris so far and am excited to see what he can acheive over the course of an entire year playing full time.

DaveIsHere
05-06-2004, 12:30 PM
I would rather have Uribe and Harris in the Valetin anyday, Uribe is a lot more solid at SS, and HArris has helped get to some huge DP's when we needed them.

my5thbench
05-06-2004, 12:46 PM
I'm concerned, I'd like to leave Harris at 2nd, forget center,
he's where he belongs now...just needs to get his OBP up,
Uribe has been terrific at short & the defense looks much
better with these 2 up the middle...the speed at the top
of the order speaks for itself....

there is talk among Cub fans that they need a shortstop,
what would the Cubs send to the Sox in a trade for Jose
Valentine?

SSN721
05-06-2004, 12:59 PM
Mark Prior and Kerry Wood :o:

bobj4400
05-06-2004, 01:05 PM
Originally posted by my5thbench
there is talk among Cub fans that they need a shortstop,
what would the Cubs send to the Sox in a trade for Jose
Valentine?

Not sure who this Valentine guy is, but a lot of people on this board post about him. Can someone fill me in?

PaleHoseGeorge
05-06-2004, 01:27 PM
Originally posted by HURT35
I am concerned about having to put Valentin back in at short ....

Jose Valentin is clearly a superior ballplayer to the 25th man who is presently on the roster. How you could begin fretting about this is beyond me.

You might as well start a thread entitled, "Is Ozzie too stupid to field the best team possible."

MHOUSE
05-06-2004, 01:37 PM
Uribe is awesome and I want to have him in the lineup. Harris is doing well also and now that he's getting on base some he's a big threat to steal and cause commotion. Jose had a great 2000 season, but look at his numbers otherwise. Not hardly worth $5 million. Call him up for the series against the Cubs and then designate him for assignment and hope to get anything for him. He'd be a decent lefty bat for someone to have. Keep Juan and Willie goin'!!

JRIG
05-06-2004, 01:41 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Jose Valentin is clearly a superior ballplayer to the 25th man who is presently on the roster. How you could begin fretting about this is beyond me.

You might as well start a thread entitled, "Is Ozzie too stupid to field the best team possible."

You're telling me Jose Valentin can outplay Kelly Dransfeldt? But Jose strikes out sometimes!

I'm looking forward to Jose returning. Does that put me in the minority? Me, I like to have a left-handed power threat other than Ross Gload. I like shortstops who have range. I like any move that will send Willie Harris to the bench more often.

kittle42
05-06-2004, 01:50 PM
Originally posted by JRIG
Me, I like to have a left-handed power threat other than Ross Gload.

When did Gload become a power threat?

JRIG
05-06-2004, 01:53 PM
Originally posted by kittle42
When did Gload become a power threat?

Unfortunately, he's next after Valentin.

PaleHoseGeorge
05-06-2004, 01:53 PM
Originally posted by kittle42
When did Gload become a power threat?

Exactly.

HURT35
05-06-2004, 02:01 PM
my concern with Jose coming back is that there is pressure to play him nearly every day, which I think is a step backward for this team. Let's face it, the Sox arent about having $5 mill. bench guys and he's clearly one of KW's "grinders" (what ever the hell that is). Kenny is going to make sure he gets play.

my point was, if the Sox had a utility IF worth a damn or a left handed bat off the bench with any pop, they could try to move Jose. Hell if Konerko wasnt here they could find a place for Jose. None of those things are in place so they need him somewhere. Just NOT at the expense of the current everyday guys. I don't think that is the way it will work out, though, and that DOES concern me.

PaleHoseGeorge
05-06-2004, 02:04 PM
Originally posted by HURT35
my concern with Jose coming back is that there is pressure to play him nearly every day, which I think is a step backward for this team. Let's face it, the Sox arent about having $5 mill. bench guys and he's clearly one of KW's "grinders".

Presumably your concern stated here is grounded in Valentin's salary. I hate to break this to you, but we have at least two other guys who play everyday that get paid more contributing less for their respective positions.

This should not be a problem to fret over. Anything that makes our roster stronger is a step in the right direction.

If you want to fret, start fretting over whether Ozzie is smart enough to manage the team. That's all you're really saying, anyway.

ScottyTheSoxFan
05-06-2004, 02:06 PM
get dransfelt off the roster and jose back on it, and then worry about it. the hot bat should play.

The Big Squirt
05-06-2004, 02:22 PM
I think that Valentin should be our utility guy. He can play all of the positions. Put him in there when he has a favorable matchup, other wise he is on the bench. If he is such a leader he will take it and do what is best for the team and lead from there.

wdelaney72
05-06-2004, 02:54 PM
Jose over Dransfeldt is fine, but if he's on the roster, he'll be starting at SS - he makes $5 million! Anybody who thinks that is not given consideration as to who is in the starting lineup is seriously living in a dream world (see Billy Koch). This is a mistake.

Willie is not perfect, but he's got speed, slaps the ball around, and is concerned with getting on base as opposed to swinging for the fences. This team already has enough guys swinging for the fences.

PaleHoseGeorge
05-06-2004, 02:56 PM
Originally posted by wdelaney72
Jose over Dransfeldt is fine, but if he's on the roster, he'll be starting at SS - he makes $5 million! Anybody who thinks that is not given consideration as to who is in the starting lineup is seriously living in a dream world (see Billy Koch). This is a mistake.

Willie is not perfect, but he's got speed, slaps the ball around, and is concerned with getting on base as opposed to swinging for the fences. This team already has enough guys swinging for the fences.

Okay, so we can pretty well summarize your point as "Ozzie is a ****ing idiot. Anyone who can't see I have greater managerial acumen than Ozzie is living in a dream world."

Boy, some people are just never happy...

:(:

Whitesox029
05-07-2004, 12:27 AM
What's the matter with not starting Harris? I haven't seen anything overly spectacular from him lately. Start Uribe at 2nd.
Also, I'm seeing a pattern in Valentin. He started out the season with the Sox on a bad note, and he started to get hot before he went on the DL. Now that he's had to sit for a while, it's going to be like starting all over again. He will have a bad series in Toronto (after having had a bad rehab stint), and when the Sox return home he'll be hitting just like we want him to. Honestly there's so much doubt and pessimism......

TaylorStSox
05-07-2004, 12:38 AM
I'm not concerned at all. Jose is the type of guy who will ride the bench if it helps the team. Think about it. He's a damn good lefty PH and would be the best UT in the majors.

Lip Man 1
05-07-2004, 12:25 PM
I could see Valentin in a utility role but I have to express wonder over those who are so sold on Willie Harris to hand him the job after three weeks of hitting that has brought his average up to a 'robust' .265 or so.

Lip