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View Full Version : Is Ichiro done?


A. Cavatica
05-05-2004, 10:31 PM
While thinking about whom the Mariners might be interested in acquiring for Freddy Garcia, I noticed that Ichiro's OPS is just .664 this year. Yes, it's a small sample, but the fact remains that his production has dropped every year since his rookie season.

2001 - batted .350, OPS .838
2002 - batted .321, OPS .813
2003 - batted .312, OPS .788
2004 - batting .277, OPS .664

Let's suppose he brings that OPS up to .750. That's poor for a corner outfielder, even one with impeccable defensive and baserunning skills. They wouldn't dare bench him yet, but he might start losing playing time...and the M's might start thinking about a successor.

Actually, most of the Mariner hitters are under-performing so far. Edgar's OPS is .748, Olerud's is .729, Winn's is .674, Aurilia's is .552.

I think the Mariners may be in the market for a power hitter who can play all around the outfield and DH...one who could step in to a full-time role soon. Seattle, meet Joe. Joe, meet Seattle.

joecrede
05-05-2004, 10:47 PM
I was think more like Lee with Ibanez moving to right and Ichiro to center. Lee and Garcia make about the same salary as well.

TaylorStSox
05-05-2004, 10:55 PM
You're talking about a former MVP whose batting .277. Bench him? Are you insane? It's a month into the season.

A. Cavatica
05-05-2004, 10:57 PM
Yup, I'd be willing to deal Lee for Garcia even up, and that would probably get it done. Though with Edgar and Olerud on the downside, maybe we could even package Konerko and, say, Wunsch and get it done...

A. Cavatica
05-05-2004, 11:06 PM
Originally posted by TaylorStSox
You're talking about a former MVP whose batting .277. Bench him? Are you insane? It's a month into the season.

Reread my post -- I said the Mariners would not bench him, and I didn't say I would.

What I did point out is that he's declining steadily. He'll never contend for MVP again. If he produces at last year's rate, he's good but not an All-Star -- you'd have to take Guerrero and Ordonez before him. And even if he improves slightly on his current production, he shouldn't even be a starter any more.

MRKARNO
05-05-2004, 11:13 PM
Is Ichiro done? No, but he's still probably better in the long run than Borchard for them. Randy Winn on the other hand...

TaylorStSox
05-05-2004, 11:27 PM
Originally posted by A. Cavatica
Reread my post -- I said the Mariners would not bench him, and I didn't say I would.

What I did point out is that he's declining steadily. He'll never contend for MVP again. If he produces at last year's rate, he's good but not an All-Star -- you'd have to take Guerrero and Ordonez before him. And even if he improves slightly on his current production, he shouldn't even be a starter any more.

It's still ludicrous. His defense and baserunning are still good enough to put him into the top tier of RF's in baseball. Yes, even if continues to hit in the .270's.

We need a Jim Mora tag. "Playoffs?!?!"

I'm sorry, but this thread is ridiculous.

A. Cavatica
05-06-2004, 12:23 AM
Originally posted by TaylorStSox
It's still ludicrous. His defense and baserunning are still good enough to put him into the top tier of RF's in baseball. Yes, even if continues to hit in the .270's.

Now THAT's ludicrous. Right fielders are paid to hit. Ichiro was MVP because he was a great leadoff hitter, and he was a great leadoff hitter because of his batting average: he doesn't walk a ton and he doesn't have much power.

Last year appeared to be an off year for him, but for the first time he was NOT in the top tier of RFs. Granted, his slow start this year could be a product of sample size. But if .270 is his new level of production, he's Willie Harris with a throwing arm.

I think joecrede's right -- he'd make a better CF than a RF.

gosox41
05-06-2004, 12:30 AM
Originally posted by TaylorStSox
It's still ludicrous. His defense and baserunning are still good enough to put him into the top tier of RF's in baseball. Yes, even if continues to hit in the .270's.

We need a Jim Mora tag. "Playoffs?!?!"

I'm sorry, but this thread is ridiculous.

What good is baserunning ability if you're not on base enough?

Also, defense for a RFer is highly overrated, Granted you don't want a stiff out there. I think Magglio is a top tiered RFer and I wouldn't trade Ichiro for Magglio straight up.

Bob

beckett21
05-06-2004, 12:35 AM
There is a reason Ichiro is in RF. He has one of the best arms in the game.

batmanZoSo
05-06-2004, 12:58 AM
Originally posted by A. Cavatica
Now THAT's ludicrous. Right fielders are paid to hit. Ichiro was MVP because he was a great leadoff hitter, and he was a great leadoff hitter because of his batting average: he doesn't walk a ton and he doesn't have much power.

Last year appeared to be an off year for him, but for the first time he was NOT in the top tier of RFs. Granted, his slow start this year could be a product of sample size. But if .270 is his new level of production, he's Willie Harris with a throwing arm.

I think joecrede's right -- he'd make a better CF than a RF.

Ichiro only had like a .360 on base in 2001. The only reason he won the MVP is because his batting average was just about that high and his team won 116 games.

A. Cavatica
05-06-2004, 01:29 AM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo
Ichiro only had like a .360 on base in 2001. The only reason he won the MVP is because his batting average was just about that high and his team won 116 games.

Bret Boone's team won 116 games, too. Ichiro's OPS was only .838, which placed him behind Giambi, Boone, Robbie, Juan Gone, A-Rod, Thome, Manny, Jeter, Mientkiewicz, Palmeiro, Edgar, Sweeney, and Koskie, among AL hitters who got at least one MVP vote. Can you say "cultural ambassador"? :-)

batmanZoSo
05-06-2004, 01:37 AM
Originally posted by A. Cavatica
Bret Boone's team won 116 games, too. Ichiro's OPS was only .838, which placed him behind Giambi, Boone, Robbie, Juan Gone, A-Rod, Thome, Manny, Jeter, Mientkiewicz, Palmeiro, Edgar, Sweeney, and Koskie, among AL hitters who got at least one MVP vote. Can you say "cultural ambassador"? :-)

He does have an ungodly arm though. The best I've ever seen. He's overrated, but I'd still take him on the Sox.

TaylorStSox
05-06-2004, 03:01 AM
Pull all the stats out that you want. He's an impact player offensively and defensively. He changes games. There aren't alot of ball players that do. Take that for what it's worth.



Even for stat guys, it's ridiculous to talk about a lead off man's OPS.

dickallen15
05-06-2004, 08:22 AM
On May 6, 1983 many thought Carlton Fisk was done or at least declining steadily. Its way too early for those observations.

Bobby Thigpen
05-06-2004, 08:48 AM
The MVP is not awarded to who has the best OPS. Ichiro does a heck of a lot more than slug unlike most of the people you put on that list. He gets at least 30-40 more hits a year because he's faster than almost anyone in the game and beats out infield grounders. He's a pretty good baserunner, and he is without doubt the best rightfielder in the game of baseball. Arm and defense wise. Ichiro deserved every award that he got that year. He had an outstanding year and was the Mariners' most valuable player all around. I would say being the MVP of a team that won 116 games should put you in the running for league MVP despite whatever the heck your OPS is.

JDP
05-06-2004, 08:49 AM
Joe Borchard for Ichiro?

Well, it was a nice thought at least. If Joe is to be the "core" of the deal, then names such as Diaz and/or Rauch will most certainly need to be added.

Wonder if they'd bite at a Lee/Borchard/Rauch/Wunsch for Ichiro/Garcia swap.....

daveeym
05-06-2004, 11:21 AM
:threadsucks

Why is this even in the clubhouse?

A. Cavatica
05-06-2004, 10:21 PM
Originally posted by JDP
Joe Borchard for Ichiro?

Well, it was a nice thought at least. If Joe is to be the "core" of the deal, then names such as Diaz and/or Rauch will most certainly need to be added.

Wonder if they'd bite at a Lee/Borchard/Rauch/Wunsch for Ichiro/Garcia swap.....

I never suggested Borchard for Ichiro. I never suggested the Sox acquire Ichiro.

What I said was the Mariners might be interested in acquiring Borchard in a Freddy Garcia trade, based on the fact that Ichiro isn't a particularly good player any more, and several of their other regulars are worse.

TaylorStSox
05-06-2004, 10:30 PM
Originally posted by A. Cavatica
I never suggested Borchard for Ichiro. I never suggested the Sox acquire Ichiro.

What I said was the Mariners might be interested in acquiring Borchard in a Freddy Garcia trade, based on the fact that Ichiro isn't a particularly good player any more, and several of their other regulars are worse.


Saying that Ichiro isn't a good player anymore triggers this.....


:threadsucks

A. Cavatica
05-19-2004, 11:17 PM
Apparently I'm not the only one that thinks this is a legitimate question.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=schwarz_alan&id=1803835

rahulsekhar
05-19-2004, 11:47 PM
Originally posted by Bobby Thigpen
The MVP is not awarded to who has the best OPS. Ichiro does a heck of a lot more than slug unlike most of the people you put on that list. He gets at least 30-40 more hits a year because he's faster than almost anyone in the game and beats out infield grounders.

For all that speed, his average has still declined the past few years (and while it's early, so far it's dropped a lot again this year), and while he's got decent SB #s, they're nowhere near those you'd expect for someone who's "faster than almost anyone in the game".

Ichiro is a very good player. Ichiro was a top caliber RF, but while he continues to be so defensively, offensively he's declined every year and is now about average. How can a .290 hitter who steals 30 bags a year be anything but average, especially for a corner OF? I mean we're talking #s that will compare reasonably to 2003 Kenny Lofton (yes, with MUCH better D) or Johnny Damon (better D, slightly better avg).

Regardless, IMO the mariners would be better off moving Ichiro to CF and getting some badly needed pop in RF. But I'm not for trading C.Lee, I'd rather give them a package centered around Valentin for the suddenly slumping Garcia.

ode to veeck
05-20-2004, 01:25 AM
We need a forum called Fantasy Island ...

jabrch
05-20-2004, 11:02 AM
Originally posted by rahulsekhar
Regardless, IMO the mariners would be better off moving Ichiro to CF and getting some badly needed pop in RF. But I'm not for trading C.Lee, I'd rather give them a package centered around Valentin for the suddenly slumping Garcia.

Your what hurts?

A package around an old, FA-to-be, 5mm earning SS for a team that just signed a veteran SS to a 2 year deal for a front/mid rotation starter? Seattle would hang up on KW fairly quickly. Any trade for Garcia will center around prospects and young players - that's what Seattle will need.

Voice of Reason
05-20-2004, 01:12 PM
Does giving him the MVP look bad to everyone yet?

Dadawg_77
05-20-2004, 01:18 PM
Ichiro needs to stop being a slap hitter and use his quick swing for some power. If he adjust he can be as dominate as he was.

dirty-mutt
05-20-2004, 02:55 PM
Ichiro now hitting .316 with .360 OBP, .440 with .517 OBP in his last 7 games.

He deserved MVP that year.

Taylorstsox is right, he is a leadoff man, it would be nice to have a 1.000 OPS but if he did have those numbers he would be hitting somewhere else in the lineup.

Hes still a premier player, and that article on espn.com sucks. "a lower echelon of performance" gimme a freakin break

The mariners would be foolish to trade him.