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Daver
05-05-2004, 10:09 PM
Your reactions go here.

:bandance:

HomeFish
05-05-2004, 10:10 PM
Can the dancing banana find the strike zone? He seems like the kind of guy who'd really contribute to team chemistry.

santo=dorf
05-05-2004, 10:10 PM
First to say

KOCH SUCKS!!!

Brian26
05-05-2004, 10:10 PM
Koch with another save he doesn't deserve. Give the save to Willie for getting the lead runner on that second out or maybe to Rowand for not launching a head over heels somersault throw to home on the first out.

idseer
05-05-2004, 10:10 PM
Originally posted by Daver
Your reactions go here.

:bandance:

remember mondays post game thread ...


DITTO

Konerko05
05-05-2004, 10:10 PM
Koch rules! He got another save.

Konerko05
05-05-2004, 10:11 PM
Originally posted by Konerko05
Koch rules! He got another save.

Oh wait, I forgot to use teal haha.

chisoxmike
05-05-2004, 10:11 PM
Willie saved the game. I thought he was going to bobble the ball.

Brian26
05-05-2004, 10:12 PM
Was anyone afraid Konerko wouldn't beat the runner to the bag for that third out? :D:

Foulke You
05-05-2004, 10:13 PM
Koch was shaky as usual however, I thought that ump gave Palmeiro a couple really close pitches that probably should have been strikes. That being said, I have now had another heart attack (as expected) when Koch takes the mound.

PaulDrake
05-05-2004, 10:13 PM
He got another save. Whopee ding. He's awful and it's too easy to record a save. He was brutal his last two outings. This will not last, the Sox need to find a real closer. It's a long season and this will catch up to them sooner or later.

DuckSnort
05-05-2004, 10:14 PM
Originally posted by Brian26
Was anyone afraid Konerko wouldn't beat the runner to the bag for that third out? :D:


Actually, yes! :smile:

Brian26
05-05-2004, 10:16 PM
Originally posted by Foulke You
Koch was shaky as usual however, I thought that ump gave Palmeiro a couple really close pitches that probably should have been strikes. The third and fourth balls were very close to being strikes. I thought ball four was a strike for sure. Surprised Rafy was taking.

fusillirob1983
05-05-2004, 10:16 PM
Did anyone just hear on the postgame show when Darrin Jackson used the word sphincter?

Un-freakin-real.

Brian26
05-05-2004, 10:18 PM
Originally posted by fusillirob1983
Did anyone just hear on the postgame show when Darrin Jackson used the word sphincter?

Un-freakin-real.

And I never get sick of Hawk talking about how big Ozzie's "stones" are.

And did he slip in a Preparation-H joke towards the end?

Shoeless Joe
05-05-2004, 10:18 PM
I'm starting to enjoy all these one run ballgames. Yeah they're taxing on the nerves but that sense of relief afterwards is a lot more rewarding...Or maybe I'm just crazy...

SpartanSoxFan
05-05-2004, 10:20 PM
Originally posted by fusillirob1983
Did anyone just hear on the postgame show when Darrin Jackson used the word sphincter?

Un-freakin-real.

"That one puckered up my butthole." -Will Smith as Mike Lowry in Bad Boys II

OEO Magglio
05-05-2004, 10:20 PM
Originally posted by Shoeless Joe
I'm starting to enjoy all these one run ballgames. Yeah they're taxing on the nerves but that sense of relief afterwards is a lot more rewarding...Or maybe I'm just crazy...
Your crazy, these one run games are absolutely killing me, but if they continue to win I could care less how much they win by.

owensmouth
05-05-2004, 10:21 PM
We finally got some timely hitting. The Sox got a couple of guys around to score that had reached on walks tonight. Monday and Tuesday we had something like 18 walks and none of them got plated. Well done by Olivo, Uribe, Magglio, Frank and most especially Aaron for those RBIs. Bow, a day off and fun in Toronto. I thought Mark pitched well, though he needs a little better direction on the toss to Willie at first. Overall, another fine win.

flo-B-flo
05-05-2004, 10:21 PM
17-10 Goat gets himself into one run game save situation. Over all the Sox are better defensively this year then anytime in the last 3 years. The Sox are coming "ready to play" every game so far. Great start. Go-Go Sox!

ShoelessFred
05-05-2004, 10:22 PM
we're just keeping first place warm for someone else till we get a REAL closer on this team

soxwon
05-05-2004, 10:25 PM
awesome another 1 run game
I LOVE THIS-lets win em all by 1
we are the best there is no question.
love you billy koch

mdep524
05-05-2004, 10:27 PM
It's OK Koch had the bases loaded with nobody out because the Sox won, and because he has a "closer" mentality, and because has some movement on his fastball now.
:angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry:

As for the rest of the team...
SOX WIN!! :D: :D:

voodoochile
05-05-2004, 10:27 PM
Originally posted by ShoelessFred
we're just keeping first place warm for someone else till we get a REAL closer on this team

I have no idea what that means...

Oh who cares!

:winner

:dinger

WOOHOOOOO! Still in first place, still living large... :) :supernana:

faneidde
05-05-2004, 10:28 PM
11-1 in one run games, in case anyone cares, the odds of that being strictly through luck (ie, we have a 50-50 chance of winning close games) are: .293%

flo-B-flo
05-05-2004, 10:29 PM
The answer usually is right in your pitching staff. Someone you got is just as likely to succeed as a new guy from somewhere else.

MikeKreevich
05-05-2004, 10:29 PM
Was anyone else thinking - if the sox lose this one, maybe the Koch in the closer role will end? Ozzie can't have much faith in the guy now.

DGSWR81
05-05-2004, 10:34 PM
A win's a win, but some changes have to be made. (Mike Jackson closer)

stillz
05-05-2004, 10:36 PM
Feels good to get some clutch hits. Bigs ups to Aaron for coming through. A White Sox winner.. woo-hoo!

Koch is a joke.

bahn1225
05-05-2004, 10:39 PM
:D: SOX WIN :D:
cubs lose
Perfect Day

Max Power
05-05-2004, 10:45 PM
I was somewhat surprised that Ozzie stayed with Koch after walking the bases loaded. Cotts and Politte were up in the bullpen, so someone was thinking Koch might need to be pulled. Eventually this stuff is gonna catch up with Koch.

Bucktown
05-05-2004, 10:46 PM
Originally posted by faneidde
11-1 in one run games, in case anyone cares, the odds of that being strictly through luck (ie, we have a 50-50 chance of winning close games) are: .293%
I am not following this math at all.

mikef1331
05-05-2004, 10:47 PM
Koronary Koch does it again! I could use a drink after this game. :gulp:

inta
05-05-2004, 10:47 PM
anyone who says koch was "lucky" to get out of that mess is on drugs.
so any pitcher who doesnt get nolan ryanesque outs is "lucky"?

yeah he made a huge mess, and i was about ready to punch my radio and eat copious amounts of dirt to take back everything i said in his defense.
but he got out of it. i gotta give him credit for that.

great game and a white sox winner.
also, i was very happy with how our run production went down tonight. no solo shot bonanza.

JGarlandrules20
05-05-2004, 10:49 PM
Originally posted by Shoeless Joe
I'm starting to enjoy all these one run ballgames. Yeah they're taxing on the nerves but that sense of relief afterwards is a lot more rewarding...Or maybe I'm just crazy...
I only like the one run ball games when the Sox are actually the team coming from behind. Maybe if the sox had a decent closer that didn't give you a heart attack every time he was put in.. then maybe it would be different.

Koch scares me. Lots. Seeing no outs, bases loaded...not good. And his fingernails are grossly long.

Oh, well. Sox win!

inta
05-05-2004, 10:50 PM
Originally posted by MikeKreevich
Was anyone else thinking - if the sox lose this one, maybe the Koch in the closer role will end? Ozzie can't have much faith in the guy now.

yeah i think tonight was a test for koch. thing is he really didnt give ozzie an answer. he messed up BIG TIME, but then he got out of it pretty amazingly.

i'm sure we'll see him close again soon. hopefully this stuff just works as momentum for koch.

stillz
05-05-2004, 10:52 PM
Originally posted by inta
anyone who says koch was "lucky" to get out of that mess is on drugs.
so any pitcher who doesnt get nolan ryanesque outs is "lucky"?


No, but walking two batters in unacceptable. He may have cleaned up his own mess, but he lacked command and almost blew it. Any kudos you give him should be followed by a reprimand. He was lucky.

Nard
05-05-2004, 10:53 PM
Koch will only get better and better.

For him to pull together like that with Cott-man and Mr. Polite warming up is incredible.

Whoever credits these two saves to "luck" is a fool.

After that sac fly scored, he was MONEY.

It's things like these that will make him a better player... he has the closer mentality.

So calm the **** down. We have the second best record in baseball, maybe you ****s are forgetting that. :)

faneidde
05-05-2004, 10:57 PM
Originally posted by Bucktown
I am not following this math at all.
Ok, if you do something 12 times that has a fifty percent sucess rate, the odds of you doing that 11 times are:
12 chose 11 (the number of different ways you can pick 11 from 12, if the Sox were 6-6, it would be 12 chose 6) 12 chose 11=12
Take that # and multiply if by .5^11 power, since that is the number of sucesess, which after checking made me realize I made a mistake, I took .5^12 in my first) The odds are: .586%

Nard
05-05-2004, 10:59 PM
Statistics are for losers and accountants.

We are 11-1 in one run games, 17-10 the second best record in baseball, and Koch has saved yet another game.

faneidde
05-05-2004, 11:01 PM
Originally posted by Nard
Statistics are for losers and accountants.

We are 11-1 in one run games, 17-10 the second best record in baseball, and Koch has saved yet another game.
My point in posting that was if we are getting lucky, we are getting really lucky. I just think there's something about the make up of this team that helps them win close games. Oh, that and so people who couldn't do the calculations would call me a loser. :D: And I am a finance minor, not quite accounting, but close.

Nard
05-05-2004, 11:04 PM
Oh I just read your first post.

Yeah statistics are the ****! This isn't just simple luck of the draw. If you can show that this isn't just a little luck then gof or it.

No teal here. :)

mcfish
05-05-2004, 11:04 PM
Originally posted by Nard
Koch will only get better and better.

For him to pull together like that with Cott-man and Mr. Polite warming up is incredible.

Whoever credits these two saves to "luck" is a fool.

After that sac fly scored, he was MONEY.

It's things like these that will make him a better player... he has the closer mentality.

So calm the **** down. We have the second best record in baseball, maybe you ****s are forgetting that. :)

Are you kidding? When was the last time Koch had an appearance in a pressure situation and White Sox fans everywhere said, "He's getting better." Yeah, he pitched well two weeks ago with a 5 run lead. Then he went back to his old ways in save situations. 5 walks in 2 innings? awful. That makes 8 walks and 2 hit batsmen for the year. Our closer has put 10 men on base himself in 13.1 innings.

Nard
05-05-2004, 11:08 PM
I'm not a real multi-layer kind of guy. I like to keep it simple and straight. I find it pretty much pointless to whine over walks per hits squared divided by the square root of innings pitched times batters hit.

So I like to pretty much keep it to one stat:

Billy Koch: 4 for 4 in save opportunities since New York

stillz
05-05-2004, 11:11 PM
Originally posted by Nard
For him to pull together like that with Cott-man and Mr. Polite warming up is incredible.

True, and it's not as though Ozzie seems averse to shaking things up. Koch deserves the save, no doubt. I just wish he could have a smooth outing and inspire some confidence. Maybe he'll start to groove as the weather warms. He's capable of nasty stuff.

In the meantime, it will be exciting and frightening.

nasox
05-05-2004, 11:24 PM
Originally posted by stillz
True, and it's not as though Ozzie seems averse to shaking things up. Koch deserves the save, no doubt. I just wish he could have a smooth outing and inspire some confidence. Maybe he'll start to groove as the weather warms. He's capable of nasty stuff.

In the meantime, it will be exciting and frightening.

What he said.

All koch needs is confidence in his pitches. And he, oddly enough seems to gain confidence every time a runner or two gets on. It is like then and only then does he buckle down and start to pitch. Maybe he needs extra pressure to motivate himself, but I thought that closing a tight game in the bottom of the ninth is enough pressure already....o well....we won.....everything is right with the world... :)

HomeFish
05-05-2004, 11:27 PM
5-0 Minnesota over the Mariners.

Boy we needed that win. More importantly, we now have a 2 game lead in the imaginary crosstown division! :D:

GoSox2K3
05-05-2004, 11:38 PM
I'd like to hear your thoughts on why Ozzie keep turning to Koch in the 9th and then sticking with him like this.

Is it because we're short on arms and have no alternatives? Is this a plan to rebuild Koch's confidence by sticking w/ him as long as possible? Maybe Ozzie is confident that once Koch gets the lead or winning run in scoring position, that he'll continue to get the final out?

Is there a method to Ozzie's madness?

CHISOXFAN13
05-05-2004, 11:53 PM
Originally posted by bahn1225
:D: SOX WIN :D:
cubs lose
Perfect Day

Hardly. The Twins are smashing Seattle. If they lose, it's a perfect day. Wish more people would have that outlook.

pudge
05-05-2004, 11:54 PM
Originally posted by Nard

So I like to pretty much keep it to one stat:

Billy Koch: 4 for 4 in save opportunities since New York

Then I guess you're as moronically stubborn as KW and don't care about actually getting to the play-offs.

Ozzie was shaking his head after this win... I gotta believe a change is coming, man I'm hoping....

Hokiesox
05-06-2004, 12:04 AM
Originally posted by Foulke You
Koch was shaky as usual however, I thought that ump gave Palmeiro a couple really close pitches that probably should have been strikes. That being said, I have now had another heart attack (as expected) when Koch takes the mound.


It wasn't just the ninth inning. I was 6 rows behind the sox dugout and all night long I couldn't tell what game the ump was watching. He punched Maggs out in the first inning on one that was at his ankles and about 2 feet outside. Then...Buerhle throws the same pitch in the bottom half, and nothing... This went on all night. Even the O's fans around me were sympathetic.

Shingo pitched great, the fans around me were impressed. He was key in this game.

Nard
05-06-2004, 12:07 AM
Shingo definitely got robbed on a couple of his tosses. He shouldn't have walked anyone but he was getting zero help from the umps.

Good to hear that kind of behavior from Bawlmer fans. Now that's a good solid fanbase, the Os fans. I'm glad they're doing well this year (except when it's against us of course).

beckett21
05-06-2004, 12:28 AM
Originally posted by GoSox2K3
I'd like to hear your thoughts on why Ozzie keep turning to Koch in the 9th and then sticking with him like this.

Is it because we're short on arms and have no alternatives? Is this a plan to rebuild Koch's confidence by sticking w/ him as long as possible? Maybe Ozzie is confident that once Koch gets the lead or winning run in scoring position, that he'll continue to get the final out?

Is there a method to Ozzie's madness?

Billy Koch is a closer by trade. A poor one in my opinion, but that is what he is.

If he cannot perform his duties in the 9th inning he is absoultely worthless to this team. This is his job. He has no choice but to do it. Otherwise he becomes the mop-up man when we are getting blown out.

Is there ANY point of a game which we have a chance to win that you would want him in? My answer to that is no. At least that's my opinion from what I have seen of him in his year-plus with us.

The only alternative to him closing would be to outright cut his ass because we cannot trade him, and there would be no place for him out of the pen. He gets paid to close. End of story.

Earn your money Billy or get out of town please.

:gascan "Koch comes on in the 9th..."

Lip Man 1
05-06-2004, 02:05 AM
A few observations after watching the ESPN tape of the game (I hate that damn crawl on the bottom of the screen!!!!)

1. Mark Buehrle will not make anybody forget Jim Katt as a fielder.

2. Willie Harris may actually be a worse bunter then Chris Singleton ever was. (If looks could kill after Harris popped it up, he'd be dead if you saw the glare coming from Ozzie...)

3. Billy Koch will not make it through the season as Sox closer.

It's a win but brother they are living on the edge.

Lip

doublem23
05-06-2004, 05:01 AM
Originally posted by Brian26
Was anyone afraid Konerko wouldn't beat the runner to the bag for that third out? :D:

Everytime I see Paul put up the ol' stop, I'll get him at first sign, a chill runs down my back. One of these days he's going to overestimate his "speed."

SSN721
05-06-2004, 07:00 AM
Definitely a nail biter. But it was fantastic to see them actually get some hits (not HRs) to drive in runs, especially since some of them were walks. Its about time we make opposing pitchers pay for their mistakes. Koch was a walking heart attack as usual, very tense. I dont know how much longer he will get to keep the closers role pitching like this. I can only hope he will improve even though there really isnt any evidence to back that up. But a win is a win and it was just nice to leave the Inner Harbor with a series win. Now onto TOronto for the sweep. :)

hsnterprize
05-06-2004, 08:07 AM
If the Sox would've lost last night, I would've been mad at both Koch and Ozzie. Koch for obvious reasons, but at Ozzie for putting him in in the first place. I saw Politte warming up in the bullpen in the 8th, so I'm thinking he's going in.

voodoochile
05-06-2004, 08:38 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
A few observations after watching the ESPN tape of the game (I hate that damn crawl on the bottom of the screen!!!!)

1. Mark Buehrle will not make anybody forget Jim Katt as a fielder.

2. Willie Harris may actually be a worse bunter then Chris Singleton ever was. (If looks could kill after Harris popped it up, he'd be dead if you saw the glare coming from Ozzie...)
Lip

Lip, comments like these are why very few people take you seriously. Buehrle had a rough night fielding yes, but he has been a fantastic fielder for most of his major league career. He makes the tough and the easy plays on a regular basis.

Harris screwed up that bunt too, but in general he has proven he can bunt. Last night he was going down to get the ball and the pitcher threw one up in the zone. He then popped it up, but he hasn't done that very often and given how many times Harris has actually put one on the ground (good decision or not) it is ridiculous to call Harris a poor bunter.

It isn't what a guy did last night, it's what they've done for their entire stay with the team that matters when evaluating their ability to do it. In short, your hyperbole is extreme and says more about you than it does about the players in question.

nasox
05-06-2004, 08:58 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Lip, comments like these are why very few people take you seriously. Buehrle had a rough night fielding yes, but he has been a fantastic fielder for most of his major league career. He makes the tough and the easy plays on a regular basis.

It isn't what a guy did last night, it's what they've done for their entire stay with the team that matters when evaluating their ability to do it. In short, your hyperbole is extreme and says more about you than it does about the players in question.

Buehrle in my opinion deserved a gold glove last year but he didn't get one. O well. I know he will get it, perhaps this year, but I know he'll retire with at least one.

I think Lip just demands to much from our team. If a guy has an off night one game, Lip will demand that he be benched, or will call the guy crappy based on that one game. If a player is having an off night every game for awhile (e.g. prolonged slump, boneheaded plays, continued bad defense). Maybe all he needs to do is tone it down a bit. I do find his negativity entertaining once in a while.

elrod
05-06-2004, 09:40 AM
With Buehrle on three days rest he didn't do too bad. It looks like he's having early season struggles like last year, though not as bad. I'm sure he'll be fine.

Big kudos to Miguel Olivo for hitting that double to lead off the seventh and get RIGHT BACK at the O's after falling behind. And, as usual, props to Juan Uribe for a clutch triple. I keep waiting for Uribe to fade back to reality and even as his average drops slightly, the hits he gets are so critical.

As for Koch, I was at Nevin's Pub in Evanston and yelling at the television along with a few other fellows. And then Koch pulled it out and the disinterested (not Cub fans, just non-sports fans) in the room thought I was crazy. Koch keeps his job until he actually blows one or two. Hopefully, if and when he does blow one the team won't fall apart like last year after July 4. That's where Ozzie's leadership comes in.

As for Koch's pitching I really think he needs to develolp an off-speed pitch. His fastball at 94mph is usually good enough to get ahead of hitters but not enough to get them out. It has no movement and hitters can adjust after fouling off pitches with two strikes. If he had a change-up he could devastate these hitters. I'm a bit worried about his control lately - something that wasn't a problem until this series (only 3 BBs all year). I'm not giving up on him because we have no options. The best closer for this team would have been Tom Gordon, who only signed a two-year deal for $3.5 million with the Yankees. Gordon is lights out in NY and he was great last year.

Lip Man 1
05-06-2004, 12:10 PM
Hasn't Buehrle made errors in his last two (or three) games?

Hasn't Harris blown bunts earlier this season (and remember Ozzie saying he 'discussed' with him the time he tried to bunt when he should have been swinging away)?

Just wondering...

Don't let your 'love' of some of these guys blind you to reality.

Lip

rahulsekhar
05-06-2004, 12:32 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Hasn't Buehrle made errors in his last two (or three) games?

Hasn't Harris blown bunts earlier this season (and remember Ozzie saying he 'discussed' with him the time he tried to bunt when he should have been swinging away)?

Just wondering...

Don't let your 'love' of some of these guys blind you to reality.

Lip

Is reality recent performance? Or is reality what a guy's done over his career? If it's the former, then Paul Konerko is a better player than Carlos Delgado. If you believe that I have a bridge to sell you.

Many guys can bunch up errors, but that doesn't automatically make them bad fielders, not when they tend not to make them when you factor in a larger sample size.

FoulTerritory
05-06-2004, 01:51 PM
Originally posted by Nard
I'm not a real multi-layer kind of guy. I like to keep it simple and straight. I find it pretty much pointless to whine over walks per hits squared divided by the square root of innings pitched times batters hit.

So I like to pretty much keep it to one stat:

Billy Koch: 4 for 4 in save opportunities since New York


Yeah, but Manuel was "keepin it simple" last year when he kept throwing Koch out there, and then he started blowing saves like crazy, and that didn't work out too well for us. There is clearly a problem with Koch! In fact, it doesn't even take stats to tell you that. He has virtually no control over his pitches, and control is perhaps the most vital aspect of being a reliable closer.

Regular season aside, say we do get into the playoffs. There is NO WAY you can win a world series with a "closer" with little to no ability to spot pitches, and no out pitch.

IMO this is probably the most undebatable debate thats ever taken place on this board. Why are people even bothering to defend a pitcher with a 6 era, who's had four 1-2-3 innings in the past 2 years combined. How can you defend that? Its a problem that needs a remedy or else it will spell the doom of this 2004 team.